HomeRoast Digest

Topic: Traditions Brouhaha (18 msgs / 389 lines)
1) From: John Blumel
One thing that I think is being overlooked in the tradition rules 
debate now raging on the list is how the traditions got started. Jim 
Gundlach offered something (I don't remember what) up to the list (and 
although he denies that it was intended as a sociology experiment, I 
think it certainly turned into one) with the only condition being that 
whoever got it (I don't recall how he selected) would, likewise, offer 
something up under the same conditions. He didn't spell out exactly 
what conditions applied beyond this but his tradition was open to 
everyone on the list. Of course, since then several new 'traditions' 
have been started so that it would take a cyber-archeologist a year to 
sort out which tradition is the one that originated from Jim. 
(Actually, I think several may claim direct ancestry.)
So now we have a discussion of whether there are official rules for the 
tradition offerings and, if so, who sets them. Well, if your tradition 
offering is a descendant of Jim's original offering, then I think you 
are bound to respect the conditions of Jim's offering -- i.e., it's 
open to everyone and whoever gets it must offer something in return. I 
think this obligation exists even if you received an offering under 
more restricted circumstances since these conditions were not part of 
Jim's offering
If the origin of the particular tradition under which you are to offer 
something to the list is uncertain, it would probably be best to follow 
Jim's example since your tradition was at least inspired by his 
offering, even if it is not directly descended.
If you know that the tradition offering you are making is not descended 
from Jim's, I think you are bound to follow the conditions under which 
you accepted the offering. Perhaps you can liberalize those conditions, 
depending on how the tradition was started, but it would be wrong to 
accept a tradition offering under one set of conditions and then offer 
something up under more restricted conditions which were not intended 
by the tradition originator.
Finally, if you are starting a new tradition and you want to set 
conditions on it, it's your right to do so and anyone accepting your 
offering should follow your conditions as much as possible. Again, I 
think a recipient is justified in loosening restrictions unless the 
originator has specifically made it a condition that that not be done 
or if the nature of the offering makes it impractical to follow the 
original conditions. As with Jim's original tradition, I don't think it 
is right to place more restrictive conditions on an offering than were 
on the offering you accepted.
As to Ron's offering of the drum, I think this is a very generous thing 
he is doing. Although he did originally ask people who already own RK 
drums to give others a chance, he never said that only those without 
drums were eligible. He also, very quickly, responded to the resulting 
clamor and dropped any notion of restrictions on who could enter their 
names. I think he's just trying to do the right thing here and really 
doesn't deserve the beating he's taken.
On the other hand, I don't think those who were upset by what they 
perceived as a change in the conditions of The Tradition deserve to get 
beat up either. They were justifiably upset at what they saw as an 
attempt to change the tradition and the conditions under which an 
offering was made -- conditions different than those under which the 
preceding offering was accepted. (It seems clear from Ron's subsequent 
emails that this wasn't his intent.)
I'm sure this isn't the last word or the last controversy but it would 
be well to recall that Jim's original purpose for making the first 
offering was to foster a sense of community among list members. It 
would be terrible to allow differences over these offerings to tear 
this community apart.
John Blumel

2) From: Rick Farris
Very nice post, John, but I have one problem with it.  How is it that you
cannot remember what was offered but can remember exactly the conditions?
Without the original post to peruse, the rest of your (very logically
stated) missive is a straw man argument.
-- Rick

3) From: Angelo
Someone's offering a straw man? Cool...My only problem is figuring out 
where to put it in this apartment....That is, if i win, of course...

4) From: DEchelbarg
I'm new to this group and have enjoyed participating . . . .  I don't really 
understand the "traditions" tradition.  The person who offered the drum was 
giving a nice gift.  It was his intent that a person who had not yet experienced 
drum roasting have it.  He wanted someone new to share in drum roasting. I've 
given many things to people for the simple reason that they didn't have a 
given item.  The giver can choose to give what the giver chooses to give.  The 
problem comes when people feel they are being excluded, when they feel that 
their participation in this tradition entitles them to participate.  Maybe it 
does.  I do, however, think that the wishes of the giver should be considered.  It 
wasn't a mandate, it was a suggestion.  I want to underline the contribution 
of the giver.  Thank you.  Thank you.  A thank you is the correct response to 
grace. Otherwise, how quickly things that once united a group, rip it apart.  
The focus of this little tradition is on giving, enriching, helping -- if it 
is on winning, or getting, that doesn't seem to match the spirit of the 
tradition.  My two cents.
Dave Echelbarger 

5) From: John Blumel
On May 3, 2004, at 2:42pm, Rick Farris wrote:
Because the origins of the tradition were revisited some time ago and, 
even though Jim Gundlach did state at that time what it was that he had 
originally offered, the exact item of the initial offering didn't seem 
important enough to make a point of remembering it. If pressed, I would 
have to state that it may have been an ibrik, although I'm not certain.
Well, Jim's original offering is, no doubt, somewhere in the archives 
where you are free to look it up. I believe that my representation of 
it is essentially correct. But, the point is that he made the offering 
on some set of conditions and that act and those conditions are 
essentially what govern the tradition. (Note that I'm not saying that 
Jim Gundlach is the arbiter of the tradition but rather that his 
initial act establishing it is.) I don't think scarecrows really enter 
into it.
John Blumel

6) From: gin
all of that is well and good but if you accepted a Tradition with no 
strings attached or exclusions then your offer should be in kind.
very simple concept, like for like..
you should not take something without restriction and turn around and offer 
something with restrictions, period.
At 12:29 PM 5/3/2004, you wrote:

7) From: Rick Farris
I'm not building a logical construct on top of it, John, you are.  If you
want us to buy into your logic I think it is up to you to dig out the post.
I'm serious about this.  I like your logic.  If you can show that it's
founded on fact, I'm with you.
-- Rick

8) From: John Blumel
On May 3, 2004, at 4:13pm, Rick Farris wrote:
<Snip>http://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Topic4888.htmIt was not an ibrik, although, looking through homeroast history, it 
seems that I always remember it as such. (There was another tradition 
offering involving Jim and an ibrik.)
Now, can everyone on the list (symbolically) shake hands and make up?
John Blumel

9) From: Rick Farris
Ok, I'm in.  Here are the rules of the traditions:
1) You must email the offerer directly.
2) You must pay the offerer for postage.
3) You must agree to offer something yourself.
4) The offerer must give the offering to the first person who agrees to pay
shipping and agrees to offer something else to the list under the same
If we're agreed, I'm done with the topic.
-- Rick

10) From: Gene Smith
Oh, sure!  Go make sense and ruin it for the rest of us...
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston
considered.  It

11) From: Pamela Chadwick
Gosh, I hope so, I am ready to take a hiatus for a while, this is all very
troubling. I don't think it is cool for Gin to tell Michael to @#$@ himself.
Bye for now.

12) From: John Blumel
On May 3, 2004, at 7:03pm, Pamela Chadwick wrote:
Now, now, gin didn't exactly say that. She is our most emotional list 
member but, generally, we cut her some slack because she also has the 
biggest heart.
John Blumel

13) From: Ben Treichel
John Blumel wrote:
True, but I think we also might want to check Gin for Rabies. ;-)   That 
would also explain some of her ill-temper.
Ben Treichel
Program Manager
S.E Michigan
248-232-7365 (o)
248-935-6845 (m)

14) From: AlChemist John
Look what I found in my archive.  It has definitely changed since then.
Sometime around 2:35 PM 9/20/2002, Jim Gundlach typed:
I am the beneficiary of Dave Hudddle's offer of a vacuum pot gasket. He had 
it. It would not work for him so he offered it to someone on the list for 
postage. I e-mailed first so I got it. He will ship it and when I get it I 
will send him the postage. To make it a tradition, I have a new outside 
burr for the Solis 166, I think it is the same as for the 177 and the 
Mastero (sp?). I paid $25.00 for it and it did not fix my grinder so I 
ordered a Rocky.
I am offering the new burr to the first person on the list to e-mail me. 
They must agree to the same arrangement plus agree to keep it going. That 
is, agree to pay me the price for shipping after you get it and offer 
something else coffee related to the list. Just offer it to the first taker 
on the list who agrees to pay shipping and agrees to offer something else 
to the list under the same conditions.
Jim Gundlach
roasting over pecan wood fires
in La Place, Alabama
Sometime around 11:42 AM 5/3/2004, Rick Farris typed:
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

15) From: AlChemist John
True, those were the original conditions.  Some have changed such as who 
pays postage and how the responders are chosen.  Now what?
Sometime around 02:10 PM 5/3/2004, Rick Farris typed:
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

16) From: MMore
You know, can't we just let it be a no rules sort of thing?  If someone is 
gracious enough to offer something, then however they want to offer it, under 
whatever conditions, should be fine to everyone....and if it's not, then that 
person to whom it's not fine can just not participate!
My momma taught me to just say thanks, regardless.
Michael A. Roaster of Vienna, Va.

17) From: AlChemist John
You know, that was how I thought it was going.  Unfortunately, those who 
did not like that started this whole thread.
Sometime around 06:41 AM 5/4/2004, MMore typed:
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

18) From: Gene Smith
Oh, we've all agreed on that already, Michael.  We just can't agree on what
the 'no rules' are.
Gene Smith
thanks regardless, in Houston

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