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Topic: New Comer - Krupps IL Primo (15 msgs / 558 lines)
1) From: Joe Landry
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I've been lurking for a week now and I'm somewhat reticent about posting =
this note, but here goes anyway.  
I'm now a client of Maria and Tom and I've been roasting for about 2 =
weeks now.  I'd like to make some Espresso 
in a brewer given to me 10-15 yrs ago.  It's a small Krupps IL Primo, =
which is similar to today's Allegro.
Still works fine best I can tell but I have no users manual. That got =
lost in the move from NOLA to Houston.  I've brewed several 
shots but wanted to get some advice on it's use to improve my skills and =
the results.   
  a.. Questions I have are - amount of coffee per oz of water, not the =
usual tablespoon per 6 OZ?  
  b.. Tamping - how tight? 
  c.. What effect does turning the handle from MIN to MAX have on the =
process?  
  d.. Steaming the coffee basket/screen - generally at the end of a =
cycle the steam will start to flow through the coffee. Good/bad?
  e.. Variety of Coffee and Roast - looks like Brazilian from what I've =
read thus far?
  f.. Roast - But why use a great coffee if you're going to go to Full =
City Roast +?  
I can just feel the agony in the heads of some of the connesuirs on the =
list(sorry about that), and all these questions I could determine with a =
fair number of experiments but don't want to waste my Costa Rica Terrazu =
(but then maybe I should use Ugh! for Espresso with milk) ? 
Are you guys putting me on with the Heat Gun and dog bowl.  I guess if =
one must ask then the answer is yes. Be great to have a 1 lb roaster
the way I'm consuming this wonderful "drug".  I understand it works =
better than Ritalin. 
Best personal regards
Joe L.
Clear Lake TX.    

2) From: gin
Joe,
welcome to the list, no question is ever silly, we all sit at different 
levels of experience.
I don't know the machine you are talking about so I most likely cannot give 
you answers related to you specific Krupps. You might try their website for 
PDF's of older models.
As to tamping I use about 25 pounds.
again welcome and I know the krupps folks will assist shortly.
ginny
At 07:00 AM 7/12/2004, you wrote:
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3) From: Lesley Albjerg
First off Joe, 
 
The heat gun and dog bowl isn't a joke!  As my first brewed roast cools, this is the most complex cup of Bugesu I have ever had, and I love a complex cup!  Second, if you are getting steaming at the end of your shot, you are getting major channeling.   This isn't good!  You need about a 30 pound tamp. You need a good grinder (more important in my opinion than the machine.  A Zass is an ecomomical way to go.)  Are you timing your shot?  A 20-30 second shot is it!  Don't worry about the volume of your shot as much as the time.  I have not worked with your specific machine, but having worked with a number of the low end machines, they can make a really good shot of coffee.  However, your window for doing it is much smaller than  with a bigger machine.  Because of the smaller portafilter, you are looking at less coffee per shot.  I don't know the particulars of your machine.  When it comes to beans, espresso is a drink, not a roast.  I rarely roast beyond a full city on any bean.
   I know
 I might be missing an experience, but I much prefer the lighter roasts.  The Brazilians are much more forgiving than some of the other coffees.  My favorite bean for versatility and it is priced right too is the Uganda Bugusu.  It tastes good at a wide range of roasts and it is one of Tom's cheaper beans.  I would say it is a bargain at twice the price he charges.  Don't be afraid to post.  This is suppose to be fun!
 
Les
my 2 cents
Joe Landry  wrote:
I've been lurking for a week now and I'm somewhat reticent about posting this note, but here goes anyway.  
I'm now a client of Maria and Tom and I've been roasting for about 2 weeks now.  I'd like to make some Espresso 
in a brewer given to me 10-15 yrs ago.  It's a small Krupps IL Primo, which is similar to today's Allegro.
 
Still works fine best I can tell but I have no users manual. That got lost in the move from NOLA to Houston.  I've brewed several 
shots but wanted to get some advice on it's use to improve my skills and the results.   
   Questions I have are - amount of coffee per oz of water, not the usual tablespoon per 6 OZ?  
   Tamping - how tight? 
   What effect does turning the handle from MIN to MAX have on the process?  
   Steaming the coffee basket/screen - generally at the end of a cycle the steam will start to flow through the coffee. Good/bad?
   Variety of Coffee and Roast - looks like Brazilian from what I've read thus far?
   Roast - But why use a great coffee if you're going to go to Full City Roast +?  
I can just feel the agony in the heads of some of the connesuirs on the list(sorry about that), and all these questions I could determine with a 
fair number of experiments but don't want to waste my Costa Rica Terrazu (but then maybe I should use Ugh! for Espresso with milk) ? 
 
Are you guys putting me on with the Heat Gun and dog bowl.  I guess if one must ask then the answer is yes. Be great to have a 1 lb roaster
the way I'm consuming this wonderful "drug".  I understand it works better than Ritalin. 
 
Best personal regards
Joe L.
Clear Lake TX.    

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
Welcome to the List and de-lurking.
The Krups Il Primo is what is commonly called a "steam toy" which is more
like an electric moka pot than a real espresso machine. It cannot produce
true espresso. I can't address specific use "how to" since I don't use one.
BTW, heatgun dogbowl roasting is not a joke! See:http://www.homeroaster.com/heatgun.htmlKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

5) From: Rich Adams
http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/krupsonline/872.pdfThis manual is similar to that for the Model 972 - Krups "Il Primo" and the
Model 963 Krups "Espresso Mini".

6) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
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Joe,
     The Krupps will not make espresso because it gets too hot.  The 
pressure to put the water through the coffee is generated by steam that =
requires brewing temperatures above 212 degrees to operate at normal 
elevations.   Theoretically they could produce a decent espresso at 
about 7,000 feet above sea level where it should brew at about 195, but =
in Houston, you are just ruining good coffee.  My advice is to look at =
a French press, Cona, or vacuum pot until you can get a pump driven 
espresso machine.   Most of us consider the espresso machine a major 
purchase and put a fair amount of research into it before taking the 
plunge.
     The dog bowl/heat gun roasting is not a joke.  I now do most of my =
roasting in a wok on a range with relatively low heat supplemented by a =
heat gun.   I typically roast two to two and a half pounds at a time 
and love the control that the heat gun gives.  You can think of a wok 
as a dog bowl with a handle instead of a lip.  I live where I can roast =
in the kitchen without smoking up the rest of the house and I can air 
the kitchen out after roasting.  If I lived in a normal house, I would =
probably roast all my beans over a pecan wood fire using a Ron Kyle 
drum and the Androck over the fire popcorn poppers.
Jim Gundlach
La Place, Alabama
On Jul 12, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Joe Landry wrote:
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Primo, 
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got 
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skills 
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not the 
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have on the 
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of a 
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from what I've 
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to Full 
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determine 
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guess if 
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Joe,
    The Krupps will not make espresso because it gets too hot.  The
pressure to put the water through the coffee is generated by steam
that requires brewing temperatures above 212 degrees to operate at
normal elevations.   Theoretically they could produce a decent
espresso at about 7,000 feet above sea level where it should brew at
about 195, but in Houston, you are just ruining good coffee.  My
advice is to look at a French press, Cona, or vacuum pot until you can
get a pump driven espresso machine.   Most of us consider the espresso
machine a major purchase and put a fair amount of research into it
before taking the plunge.  
    The dog bowl/heat gun roasting is not a joke.  I now do most of my
roasting in a wok on a range with relatively low heat supplemented by
a heat gun.   I typically roast two to two and a half pounds at a time
and love the control that the heat gun gives.  You can think of a wok
as a dog bowl with a handle instead of a lip.  I live where I can
roast in the kitchen without smoking up the rest of the house and I
can air the kitchen out after roasting.  If I lived in a normal house,
I would probably roast all my beans over a pecan wood fire using a Ron
Kyle drum and the Androck over the fire popcorn poppers.
Jim Gundlach
La Place, Alabama
On Jul 12, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Joe Landry wrote:
ArialI've been lurking
for a week now and I'm somewhat reticent about posting this note, but
here goes anyway. 
Arial I'm now a client of Maria
and Tom and I've been roasting for about 2 weeks now.  I'd like to
make some Espresso
Arial in a brewer given to me
10-15 yrs ago.  It's a small Krupps IL Primo, which is similar to
today's Allegro.
 
ArialStill works fine best I can
tell but I have no users manual. That got lost in the move from NOLA
to Houston.  I've brewed several
Arial shots but wanted to get some
advice on it's use to improve my skills and the results.
  
	• 	ArialQuestions I =
have are -
amount of coffee per oz of water, not the usual tablespoon per 6 =
OZ? 
	• 	Arial Tamping - how =
tight?
	• 	Arial What effect =
does turning
the handle from MIN to MAX have on the =
process?  
	• 	ArialSteaming the =
coffee
basket/screen - generally at the end of a cycle the steam will start
to flow through the coffee. Good/bad?
	• 	ArialVariety of =
Coffee
and Roast - looks like Brazilian from what I've read thus =
far?
	• 	ArialRoast - But why =
use a
great coffee if you're going to go to Full City Roast +? =
 
ArialI can just feel the agony in
the heads of some of the connesuirs on the list(sorry about that), and
all these questions I could determine with a
Arial fair number of experiments
but don't want to waste my Costa Rica Terrazu (but then maybe I should
use Ugh! for Espresso with milk) ? 
 
ArialAre you guys putting me on
with the Heat Gun and dog bowl.  I guess if one must ask then the
answer is yes. Be great to have a 1 lb roaster
Arialthe way I'm consuming this
wonderful "drug".  I understand it works better than =
Ritalin.
Arial  
ArialBest personal =
regards
ArialJoe L.
ArialClear Lake TX. =
   
=
--Apple-Mail-4--329073967--

7) From: Gene Smith
Jim Gundlach responds:
<Snip>
I used a 'steam toy' Krups for years - until my wife & daughter got me a
candy apple red Barista last Xmas.  I had always worked to make sure that
the gadget was heated up, including pouring boiling water through the
portafilter assembly, etc., before brewing.  It never occurred to me that I
might be overheating the brew.
Jim's comments sent me into the kitchen to run a test.  I hauled out the old
Krups, filled it with water and turned it on from cold with a thermometer in
its little carafe to find out if Jim was right.
Result?  Started from cold, with all components at room temp and no coffee
in the filter basket, the water in the carafe brought the thermometer to
185º Fahrenheit.
Interesting.
So, I figured that all the metal and whatnot was now up to operating temp.
and I just dumped the hot water from the carafe back into the water
reservoir to see how hot things would get with pre-heated everything,
including water.
Result: there was a bit more steam noticeable, and the water temp in the
carafe registered 200º Fahrenheit.
Apparently the fact that steam powers the movement of the water - as in a
Moka Pot - does not indicate that the brewing temp is above boiling.  True,
a certain amount of steam goes through the grounds at the end of the brew,
but it appears to be quite minimal, and comes on the heels of the passage of
the brewing water, so I don't think it affects the actual brewing temp very
much.
Interesting.
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

8) From: Angelo
I've done this test on the steam toys, as well as on a moka pot. It seems 
that people would rather believe what they THINK is going on rather than 
what is actually happening.
This same effect happens in the vac pots.  People think the coffee is 
boiling in the top, when in fact it is just brewing , albeit somewhat 
violently, at the correct temp...
I think the so-called steam toys have gotten a bad rap from some of the 
folks in alt.coffee who continue to pass along info which they never took 
the time to test. To be fair, the manufacturers should stop calling them 
"espresso" machines, since there is a clear definition of what that 
consists of and these ain't it.......
A.
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 old
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 in
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 of
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http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

9) From: Gene Smith
<Snip>
I think you're right, Angelo.  The other mistake I made with mine was
grinding the coffee as fine as I could and tamping it, too.  I think these
machines like a grind on the fine end of drip, and a very light tamp.  I
think that steam toys and moka pots, too, are closer to being a kind of
small drip pot than true espresso.
But the question wasn't "What expensive equipment can I replace my Krups
with?"...it was more like "How do I get a decent cup of coffee out of what I
have?"  For some reason, this is a question often not well received on this
list.
Of the advice offered so far, it seems to me that the best is the suggestion
that the next available $$$ ought to be spent on a good grinder.  A
consistent grind is going to improve the cup no matter what the brewing
method is.
Joe, you didn't mention how you are grinding your coffee in your post.  What
are you using?
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

10) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
Gene,
      Running water through the empty filter will not produce the 
temperatures that a tamped espresso grind would result in.  The 
recommended pressure for producing espresso is 9.5 bars, about 135 psi, =
at 195 to 200 degrees F.  Even a weak 6 bar pump machine produces 
almost 90 psi.  If the steam driven brewer reaches 15 psi it would have =
a temperature of 257 degrees F and it generally gains about three 
degrees for each additional psi.  These machines can only over heat the =
coffee if someone tries to make espresso with them and as a result, 
IMHO, ruin any good coffee brewed with them.
    Jim Gundlach
On Jul 12, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Gene Smith wrote:
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11) From: Gene Smith
<Snip>
Okay, so you're saying if someone were to grind fine and tamp hard, higher
temps might occur?  I assume that's what you mean by "...if someone tries to
make espresso with them."  That may be true, but in all fairness to the
steam toys, the instructions call for *not* grinding at espresso fineness,
but the finer end of drip, and there are specific injunctions against more
than a very light tamp.  I still say that if you adhere to anything like the
instructions that come with the thing, the coffee that results will be
somewhere between drip and espresso.
As Angelo said, they shouldn't sell them as espresso makers, but that
doesn't mean that you can't make a decent cup of coffee with one if you
understand its limitations.  I think I'll pull mine back out one of these
days and do a side-by-side comparison, just for fun.
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

12) From: miKe mcKoffee

13) From: Angelo
Mike,
I would suggest that if you want to go that route, you check out the 
(electric) Moka pots. I think DeLonghi makes one which sits on an electric 
plate and which can then be lifted with no wire attached,  like the 
eSantos. However, a plain old stovetop Moka pot is what most Europeans and 
many South Americans use for their daily coffee.....
Gusto/Moka = apples/oranges
A.
<Snip>

14) From: Stuart Frankel
Angelo wrote:
<Snip>
Bialetti also makes an electric Moka; you can order directly from their 
website. I use it for travel (along with a Zass). It takes a rather long 
time at 110 volts (it can run on 110 or 220), but works just fine aside 
from that. The stovetop models are much quicker, better for everyday 
use; Tom has some hyper-nice ones.
best,
 stuart
---
i have a very small websitehttp://dustyfeet.com

15) From: Dave Huddle
I have two different electric Moka brewers, both from Bialetti.
The small one (2 tasse) is the 110/220 model.  It does not cut off
automatically.  It takes around 7~9 minutes to brew, IIRC.
The 6 tasse brewer shuts off automatically, and can be lifted from the
heating base.  I don't remember how long it takes to brew.
Dave	Westerville, OH 
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