HomeRoast Digest


Topic: New Technique (41 msgs / 861 lines)
1) From: Bill Cutts
Nyah, I don't want to know. Those beans are probably sour anyway just like those grapes I couldn't reach.

2) From: Lesley Albjerg
I just finished my second blind testing of a new technique, this time with two bags of the same coffee from one our list members.  He has developed a technique that really brings out the complexity of the beans and cuts down on bitterness.  I have encouraged him to share it with the group.  I was wired all day after having 10 double shots of espresso in less than two hours.  I was testing the same blend.  Blend A was a traditional roast of the blend.  Roast B was the new technique.  This technique is very simple.  He didn't tell me which was which, but it was obvious which bag had the smoother, richer, more complex cup.  I emailed him with my results to make sure there really was a difference, and that I could tell the difference. It also had a wonderful aftertaste that the other didn't have.  This didn't come out until just before going to work and having another cup!  It is so simple you won't believe it!  I tried it with the Kenya Tergu and found the same results using a d
 ifferent
 method of roasting.  However, I am not going to post it, unless the list member asks me to.  He developed it, I think he needs to post it.  So now that I have your curiosity piqued, ENCOURAGE HIM!
 
Les

3) From: Edward Spiegel
At 11:29 PM -0700 7/21/04, Lesley Albjerg wrote:
<Snip>
I am officially encouraging divulgence of this technique.
--Edward

4) From: Verdova Bishop
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Here's my "encouraging" vote.
Verdova

5) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
On Jul 22, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Lesley Albjerg wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
     Mr technique developer, please release.  Participate in the open 
source coffee community.
            Jim Gundlach

6) From: Ben Treichel
Lesley Albjerg wrote:
<Snip>
ok, give .. what is the secret
-- 
Ben Treichel
Program Manager
S.E Michigan
SwRI
248-232-7365 (o)
248-935-6845 (m)

7) From: Dave Huddle
<Snip>
<Snip>
OK   I'm interested.  Please post.
Dave 	Westerville, OH

8) From: DEchelbarg
In a message dated 7/22/2004 9:34:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
verdova.bishop writes:
Here's my "encouraging" vote.
Me Too!  Please!
Dave Echelbarger

9) From: Mark Tosiello
Here is my vigorous vote for the divulgence of the technique!!!!!!
Please!
Mark
-------
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first...Invent the
Universe
                                             -Dr. Carl E. Sagan
All outgoing E-Mail from this address is scanned for viruses by AVG
Anti-Virus.

10) From: jbrooks
I pray thee, do tell...
Jason
<Snip>

11) From: Verdova Bishop
Lesley,
Whom are we encouraging?  Can we make a more direct appeal?

12) From: Tom Ulmer
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
  Here's my "encouraging" vote.
  Me Too!  Please!
  Indeed. Please share.

13) From: Lesley Albjerg
OK gang!  I contacted the guy with the New Technique and he is swamped with work at the present time.  He is going to try to post by the weekend.  So you all have something to look forward to!  It is so simple you may scoff!  The proof is in the cup.  It has been mentioned in passing on this list before!
Les
 
Lesley,
Whom are we encouraging? Can we make a more direct appeal?

14) From: Angelo
Why all the coyness and secretiveness? I don't think Ashcroft and his 
minions are interested.Then again....
<Snip>

15) From: Mark Tosiello
Thanks!...I'll be trying that!....Les, did this work in your dogbowl?
That's my method of choice now, as my last post indicated!!!
Mark
-------
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first...Invent the
Universe
                                             -Dr. Carl E. Sagan
All outgoing E-Mail from this address is scanned for viruses by AVG
Anti-Virus.

16) From: Tom Ulmer
I'll be roasting soaked beans this evening. Sounds to me from Les'
description the cup tends tends to have a richer, fuller flavor. Perfect for
my tastes. I appreciate the tip.

17) From: Mike Gallant
<Snip>
<Snip>
	So, after the soak, how well do you dry off the beans? ie. just
a few shakes in a colander, towelling dry, etc?
	Looking forward to trying this this weekend!
-mike
--
Mike Gallant
pischke

18) From: Lesley Albjerg
Mike,
 
I did just a few shakes with the colonder.  It improved my Dog Bowl roast!
 
Les 
Mike Gallant  wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
So, after the soak, how well do you dry off the beans? ie. just
a few shakes in a colander, towelling dry, etc?
Looking forward to trying this this weekend!
-mike
--
Mike Gallant
pischke

19) From: Jim Schulman
On 22 Jul 2004 at 14:36, Douglas H. Boutell wrote:
<Snip>
I tried a soak using 5% of the weight of the beans in water, and 
waiting till it had absorbed, I then let the roast sit at 205F 
bean temp, 230F blower temp, for about a 5 minutes to "malt" the 
beans. This produced the most beautiful translucent jade blue-
green color I'd ever seen outside of Bali-Shinzen Japan prep 
greens. 
Unfortunately, the taste and aroma were a bit flatter than the 
regular roasts. Bob Yellin, who graciously agreed to try a few 
samples, agreed. There was an increase in winey flavors and 
aromas though that bears investigation.
Perhaps the malting affected the taste adversely; although if 
any grower or miller wants to fake a "superprep" and get more 
money from greens buyers, this is the way to do it. Hmm, maybe 
those Balinese just throw in some water at the end of oven 
drying the beans.

20) From: Edward Spiegel
At 2:36 PM -0700 7/22/04, Douglas H. Boutell wrote:
<Snip>
Can someone explain what 'inlet temp roasting' is?
Thx,
E

21) From: Douglas H. Boutell
I have been roasting for about 4 years and trying different techniques
to improve the flavor that I was obtaining. When I reached what I
thought was a  good improvement I asked Les if he would cup a few roasts
for me just to make sure I was not fooling myself into thinking that
there was an improvement. The three major things that  have contributed
to a better flavor are Inlet temp roasting from Jim Schulman, finding
the right amount of weight of beans for the particular roaster, and
soaking the beans for 5 minutes just before I roast. The inlet temp
roasting has stabilized the heat being applied to the beans for a smooth
profile. Each roaster has only a certain amount of heat that is
available to contribute to the profile. Too many beans and and it seems
that the flavor can not be developed because of the lack of sufficient
heat to develop the roast and you have to take the temp much higher to
obtain the desired roast.I think there is an optimum amount of weight
for the roasters. I have only experience with fluid bed roasting so I
can not comment on the weight with the drum roasters etc.
I have a highly mod FR+ with HWP heating coils and extended glass
roasting chamber. I roast between 4 to 4.2 oz but the roaster can roast
5.2 oz, but the flavor is not the same.
The most simple technique was a thread mentioned last Nov about the
moisture content. I am too lazy to measure the moisture , so I took the
easy way out and just soaked the beans. I started out with a 30 min time
and have settled on a 5 min soak time. As of yet I have not tried  less
than 5 min. When I sent the sample to Les, the roasts were taken to the
same temp and degree of roast. Both the soaked and dry beans were only a
few seconds apart when the roast was stopped. The soaking does not
extend the roasting time like one might think. But the last thing that
enters into the equation is one's own personal taste and that is for you
to determine what that should be and this is just another approach  to 
roasting.
Doug Boutell
Lesley Albjerg wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Bob Yellin
<Snip>
For those who control their hot air roasters by using a PID temperature
controller, it means that they are using the temperature that the TC =
probe
measures at the hot air inlet to the roast chamber to control the roast =
profile
(as opposed to inserting a TC probe in the bean mass and using the bean
temperature to feed back to the PID). If you don't know about =
PID-controlled
roasters, this is going to sound like gobbledy-gook to you! :-) For more =
info
about that, there are lot's of places on the web to look. For example, =
try here:http://www.homeroaster.com/geekmod.htmlBob Yellin

23) From: Douglas H. Boutell
Mike Gallant wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
Mike,
I just drain and dump into the roasting chamber and have not taken the 
time to towel dry- I will try the towel drying this weekend.
Doug
<Snip>

24) From: Jim Schulman
On 22 Jul 2004 at 20:09, Douglas H. Boutell wrote:
<Snip>
Iirc, barley for beer is usually malted at 150F to 200F, 
depending on whether one wants it lighter or darker. Malting 
chemistry is based on the Maillard reaction, just like coffee 
roasting. But coffee begins to brown at 290F. I figured that the 
wetter coffee would brown earlier. Instead, it got greener, and 
tasted flatter. Go figure!
From your description, I guess you use no extra drying on the 
wetted beans, but take them very fast to 300F.
Jim

25) From: Spencer W. Thomas
Just to be clear here.  Malting is a sprouting process -- the barley 
seed is sprouted to initiate enzymic conversion of starch to sugar 
inside the seed.  Growth is continued until the embryo is 50%-100% of 
the length of the seed and then is halted by heating and drying the now 
malted grain at about 120F.   When it is dry, the malted grain is then 
kilned to a desired degree of color.  Kilning temperature ranges from 
130F for pale malt to 240F for "Munich" malt (used to make Oktoberfest 
style beer).  Malt may also be roasted at higher temperatures, up to 
450F for "black" malt, used in stout and porter styles.
So, Jim, I think what you're thinking of is "kilning" not "malting."  It 
is during kilning that the Maillard reactions take place that darken the 
malt and develop the bready flavors that we associate with malt.
=S
Jim Schulman wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: Douglas H. Boutell
Jim Schulman wrote:
<Snip>
Jim,
I had to change the 1st part of the profile 0-325 in  1 min and hold one 
minute and anything longer than  that resulted in a flatter taste  and I 
could not correct it with a profile change from 325 till the end of the 
roast. At the end of two minutes the bean temp was between 205-225 
depending on the type that I was roasting. I have not tried to "malt"
the beans, does that require a 205F temp to malt?
Doug
<Snip>

27) From: Jim Schulman
On 22 Jul 2004 at 22:56, Spencer W. Thomas wrote:
<Snip>
Wow! Thanks for the info. I guess waiting for the coffee beans 
to sprout is a nonstarter.
Jim

28) From: Myron Joshua
Dog bowlers may not have to worry about "shaking and 'baking'" but HPW
people....BEWARE.
Moisture on your beans may gravitate and actually drip into your unit...When
I tried "moist roasting" I let the beans sit much longer so they absorbed
the water to a greater extent. I would imagine the important thing is to hit
the "on" button as soons as possible and not let the beans sit quietly in
the chamber.
Try saying "moist roast" 10 times quickly...
best, myron

29) From: AlChemist John
I think you simply counteracted the soaking by just drying them back 
out.  My guess is you need to get these soaked beans up into the chemical 
reaction zone (300 or so) and let the water actually participate.
Sometime around 01:51 PM 7/22/2004, Jim Schulman typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

30) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
I agree. But there may also be a physical change in the bean structure from
soaking and drying. The 5 minutes at 205 may not remove all of the water,
and that which remains may change the heat conductivity and chemical
reactions.
In my experiments years ago, I found no benefit to washing or soaking green
coffee. Steaming poor quality robusta beans does seem to improve them, but I
have not tried steaming good robusta.
--

31) From: Lesley Albjerg
Ah the Nay-sayers are beginning to pipe up!  Rather than theorizing, why don't you roast both ways, label the bottom of the beans A and B have someone mix them and do a blind test?  Before Doug put me on the spot, I didn't think it would make that much difference.  To me there is a marked difference in quality with soaking being better.  Soak for 5 min., drain through the colander, and roast.  It will cost you a little time and a little water, much cheaper than an I-Roast or Hottop.
 
Les 
Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>
I agree. But there may also be a physical change in the bean structure from
soaking and drying. The 5 minutes at 205 may not remove all of the water,
and that which remains may change the heat conductivity and chemical
reactions.
In my experiments years ago, I found no benefit to washing or soaking green
coffee. Steaming poor quality robusta beans does seem to improve them, but I
have not tried steaming good robusta.
--

32) From: Douglas H. Boutell
Jim Schulman wrote:
<Snip>
Yes and only hold at 325 for 1 min for the FR+ , the P1 if I do not 
pre-heat or run the cycle for 2 min I take the temp to 335 in one min 
and hold one, anything longer flattens the taste or stalls the reaction 
that was started. I have  been trying to find PID that that you can 
program in seconds and not just in 1 minute increments.
<Snip>

33) From: Ben Treichel
Word of warning,
:-[
Don't try to roast your normal batch size, and then try to dry them into 
movement because your roaster doesn't have its normal bean movement. 
Beans can get stuck at the bottom and burn if that happens.
Didn't want to tell stories about myself, but I Really don't want to 
read about roaster fires. All I lost was my glass chimney finding this 
out. I also thought I was keeping the heat low enough to avoid this.
Be careful out there!
Ben
Lesley Albjerg wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ben Treichel
Program Manager
S.E Michigan
SwRI
248-232-7365 (o)
248-935-6845 (m)

34) From: Scott Morrison

I am intriguided by this idea. I work in the Chemistry department at a University and have access to an autoclave. If I autoclaved the beans for some amount of time and then roasted two batchs of beans to compare I might be able to offer some insight. I am not sure if I am experienced as a roaster to be able to adequately control the roast. I have been roasting for 10 monthes with a whirley-pop on the grill sideburner. And then would I be able to taste any difference? 

I can offer to autoclave any bean that someone wants to send to me. I would return two samples, one autoclaved and one not, unlabeled to be roasted and tested by someone with more experience than myself.

Scott Morrison

>From: "Ken Mary" <kdmary> >Reply-To: homeroast >To: homeroast >Subject: Re: +Re: New Technique >Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:11:07 -0400 > > >From: AlChemist John <alchemist> > > I think you simply counteracted the soaking by just drying them back out. > > My guess is you need to get these soaked beans up into the chemical > > reaction zone (300 or so) and let the water actually participate. > >I agree. But there may also be a physical change in the bean structure from >soaking and drying. The 5 minutes at 205 may not remove all of the water, >and that which remains may change the heat conductivity and chemical >reactions. > >In my experiments years ago, I found no benefit to washing or soaking green >coffee. Steaming poor quality robusta beans does seem to improve them, but I >have not tried steaming good robusta. >-- > >homeroast mailing list >http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast >To change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings
Donít just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

35) From: Barry Luterman
It also won't work with a Z&D the wet beans won't allow the auger to turn.

36) From: Paul Goelz
At 02:02 PM 7/23/2004, you wrote:
<Snip>
Anyone tried it in an Alp?  I'll be trying it in about five days..... when 
my current batch of CRLM is exhausted.
Paul
Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, MI
paul
pgoelzhttp://www.pgoelz.com

37) From: AlChemist John
Les, I was not nay-saying.  I was saying that if you use the technique, 
don't adjust your roast profile to eliminate the extra water by adding more 
drying time.  Just roast.
Sometime around 07:40 AM 7/23/2004, Lesley Albjerg typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

38) From: AlChemist John
No an alp, but I was worried about the water causing the beans to stick 
also in my WBI also so mine are being left to absorb that water for 24 
hours.  I wet them down, drained them immediately and let them 
set.  Interestingly enough they held onto exactly 10% of their weight in 
water.  190g held 19 g.  I am going to have to pull out 19g to roast though.
Sometime around 07:09 PM 7/23/2004, Paul Goelz typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

39) From: Lesley Albjerg
RIGHT ON Alchemist John!  Didn't mean to accuse you!
 
Les
AlChemist John  wrote:
Les, I was not nay-saying.  I was saying that if you use the technique, don't adjust your roast profile to eliminate the extra water by adding more drying time.  Just roast.
Sometime around 07:40 AM 7/23/2004, Lesley Albjerg typed:
Ah the Nay-sayers are beginning to pipe up!  Rather than theorizing, why don't you roast both ways, label the bottom of the beans A and B have someone mix them and do a blind test?  Before Doug put me on the spot, I didn't think it would make that much difference.  To me there is a marked difference in quality with soaking being better.  Soak for 5 min., drain through the colander, and roast.  It will cost you a little time and a little water, much cheaper than an I-Roast or Hottop.
 
Les 
Ken Mary  wrote: 
   >From: AlChemist John 
   > I think you simply counteracted the soaking by just drying them back out. 
   > My guess is you need to get these soaked beans up into the chemical 
   > reaction zone (300 or so) and let the water actually participate.
   I agree. But there may also be a physical change in the bean structure from 
   soaking and drying. The 5 minutes at 205 may not remove all of the water, 
   and that which remains may change the heat conductivity and chemical 
   reactions.
   In my experiments years ago, I found no benefit to washing or soaking green 
   coffee. Steaming poor quality robusta beans does seem to improve them, but I 
   have not tried steaming good robusta. 
   ----  
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

40) From: Rob Stewart
I like to use papaya juice....... to get some enzyme activity.
Rob

41) From: jason molinari
Anyone try the new technique of soaking the beans 5
mins. with a BBQ/hottop roaster?
I searched in the archives, but there was only a
discussion of air roasters.
jason


HomeRoast Digest