HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Baked Beans (41 msgs / 999 lines)
1) From: Jerry Procopio
Ok color me stupid.  I just don't seem to get this.  I have time and 
again heard mention of slow low temperature "roasts" resulting in a 
"baked bean" instead of a "roasted bean".  What is the difference here?  
What am I looking for?
You roast beef.
You bake potatoes.
Put potatoes in the same oven when you are roasting beef and you end up 
with roast beef and baked potatoes.
I know when I use the toastmaster I have never gotten baked beans, nor 
with my iRoast.  I've recently been won over to the HG/DB method of 
roasting and am getting great first cracks and even second crack if I 
choose to take it that far.  So I don't think I have ever made "baked 
beans" but I'm curious what the definition of "baking" vs. "roasting" 
really is.
Am I being as dumb as I look about this?
Jerry

2) From: Rick Farris
It's really hard to describe, Jerry, but if pre-heat your oven to about
350, and spread a few ounces (one layer) of beans on a cookie sheet =
and put
them in the oven for about an hour, you'll have "baked beans."  The =
taste is
distinctive.
Give it a shot, it really is worth a try and from then on, when someone =
says
"such-and-such a roaster bakes the beans," you'll know exactly what =
they're
talking about.
-- Rick
----
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69F (20C)  -  65% RH 
Wind From the West at 8 mph (11:58:04)
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Now Playing: Led Zeppelin - Dazed And Confused - 1969

3) From: Jerry Procopio
Rick,
I think I have enough Ugh! to try this.  I'm not really gonna waste 
"good" beans on this, but I am curious.
Thanks,
Jerry
Rick Farris wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
You say you're curious but it doesn't really sound like it. A 1/4# of good
greens for the sake of coffee roasting knowledge would cost about a buck.
More than enough greens for Rick's suggested test. What's ignorance worth?
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

5) From: Jerry Procopio
Mike,
Oh but those goodlittle nuggets are waaaaaay too precious to waste.  
It's not a matter of the buck, it's matter of intentionally ruining the 
good stuff.  Now if you want to send me a half pound or so from your 
Kona stash, I promise I'll bake them.  I will, I will, I will!  (fingers 
crossed behind my back)
Jerry
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: peter z
Talk about baked beans! Last night I did my first roast with the 
CO/electric frying pan combination.
Just got the stirrer set up and I said what the heck, may as well roast 
a pound.
The stirrer works, and so does the efp, but the temp never got up over 
340 (heard some first crack) and that took almost half an hour. Come to 
find out that the main heater coil on the CO failed!
Well the efp alone could not do the job so I got a lot of beans with 
yellow in the middle.
Now I also do not like to waste beans (even though they are the dregs 
from my first 25 lb batch of Mexican Altura, bought to learn on ever so 
cheaply). So, today I finished the roast in 2 batches in my P1. They 
came out slightly oily, as I like them, and smell pretty good, but the 
whole thing brought to mind the recent discussion about roasters. This 
is definitely not in a class with a Hot Top,
and that is definitely too costly. Has anyone tried using an RK Drum 
with an electric barbecue?
Thanks,
PeterZ
Finally getting ready to bite the bullet and spring for something decent 
to roast with, here in LHC.
Jerry Procopio wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: miKe mcKoffee
Well, I understand not wanting to intentionally ruin good greens. Which
means of course I can't send you any Kona greens for the experiment. Tell
you what, I still have some Vietnamese Disgusta vac' sealed from Tom's gruel
offering a couple years back that I STILL haven't been able to get HASMAT to
pick up that I could send you. But then, you'd only know what baked rubber
tasted like!:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

8) From: Peter Schmidt
Peter,  that sounds kinda frustrating.....  but you've come this far.  you
may find another CO someday, and since you've put the time into the EFP,
IMHO, go for the whole setup.  even if you wind up with a Hot Top, or a BBQ
drum, it never hurts to have a back up roaster, or another method of
roasting...
just my two-cent ideas......
peter schmidt

9) From: Oaxaca Charlie
 Just for the record, so to speak, a good friend of mine who
married the daughter of a coffee estate owner, and who is always
stocked with great beans, always roasts his coffee just like
Rick suggested--an hour, or a little longer, on a tray in his
oven at 350 degrees. It doesn't crack, it turns nice and brown,
very light brown when ground, and it's sweet and nutty when
("cowboy' style) brewed. He and his wife swear by it, been
roasting it like that for 30 years, and I drink it when I visit.
Not that bad, really, but weak bodied, and very bright though
not overwhelmingly so. Probably would make very poor espresso.
  Charlie
--- Jerry Procopio  wrote:
<Snip>
=====
Brick Oven Roasting in British Columbia
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10) From: Jerry Procopio
OK, OK.. Mike, you embarrassed me into it.  As we speak I have about one 
pot's wort of Kenya AA baking in the oven.  It's just been in the oven 
for 8 minutes so far and the house is smelling pretty good.  I hope this 
turns out as crappy as it is supposed to or She Who Must Be Obeyed will 
cut my coffee roasting equipment budget.
20 minutes into this experiment.  Smells pretty good.  Looks like crap.
30 minutes is up.  This doesn't look like anything that I would really 
want to grind and drink.  Now I'm wondering what will happen if I take 
the oven temp up to about 450.  Maybe darker baked beans?  Oven's hot, 
so what the heck.  It's only about another buck.
************
35 minutes later.  I cranked my oven up to 390 with another small batch 
of Kenya AA in a pie pan.  My stove has a convection oven so I set it to 
"roast" with the convection fan on.  At the 20 minute point, the beans 
still looked funky just like the first batch so I cranked the oven up to 
450.  A few minutes later I was hearing cracking noises which I assumed 
to be frist crack.  About this time the smoke alarm sounded.  By the 
time I got it silenced and back downstairs into the kitchen, I noticed 
oily spots appearing on a couple of the coffee beans.  I cut the "bake" 
at 27 minutes and had definite sounds of second crack going on, dumped 
into a collander, ran outside and cooled them with a collander to 
collander dump.  This batch actually doesn't look too bad.  There's a 
couple beans that look half baked, but the rest looks like a nice FC++ 
not quite into a Vienna. 
I'll brew and compare tomorrow.  I also have some rested PR Yauco to 
reward myself with after sacrificing my taste buds for science.
..jerry..
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>

11) From: Jerry Procopio
Duhhhhhhhh... I guess I can't read well either.  Rick said 350 for an 
hour.  An hour is NOT 30 minutes.  I guess I'll try the 350 for an HOUR 
tomorrow night. 
..jerry..
Jerry Procopio wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: Ed Needham
Sounds about right.  You'd get the browning from the Maillard Reaction at 
around 300F and it would never hit the caramelization stage at around 400F. 
I'd guess the beans never hit first or second crack either, since both occur 
at higher temps than 350F.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
*********************

13) From: B. Scott Harroff
I've done this in my convection oven set and pre-heated to 460.  =
Actually
came out OK in around 10 minutes.  Some overdone, some underdone.  Made =
for
a complex cup of coffee.

14) From: Jerry Procopio
Well, I lived through it!
Nasty, Nasty, NASTY!  This baked bean crapola makes Folger's taste good! 
I couldn't bear to try it this morning, so I waited till I got home from 
my morning adventure.  I ground the 350 baked beans and brewed a pot 
(electric drip).  Made me want to spit.  The ground coffee actually 
didn't smell too bad, but it looked a bit pale.  To describe the flavor 
I guess I would have to say it tasted like I would imagine a pot of 
coffee would taste like if you were to make it with grounds that had 
been previously used to make a pot of coffee.  Nasty!
Now the batch that I baked at 390/450 and thought I had stopped short 
of Vienna... wellll... It is on the dark side of Vienna.  $bucks would 
be proud of this stuff.  Maybe I have discovered their secret!  The 
beans smelled like a $Bucks type Vienna+ roast, and when ground it 
reminded me of that black, black Italian coffee that my grandma used to 
make.  The brewed cup looked good, if a little dark, but tasted like it 
had some burnt rubber in it.  She Whom Must Be Obeyed says it tastes 
stale.  I added some Half&Half and sugar and it still tastes like burnt 
$Bucks. I wonder if I were to put this into a $Bucks bag if they would 
give me a refund?
I'm gonna go have a homebrew then have some PR Yauco or some Aussie 
coffee to revive my poor abused taste buds.
..jerry..   
Jerry Procopio wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Ed Needham
The ideal roast profile will hit certain temperature marks, and the beans 
will have a certain moisture content at those marks.  If say, your heat was 
too hot and the bean was fully roasted on the outside, but still undeveloped 
on the inside, the flavor would be off.  If you roasted the beans too long 
at a low temperature, and evaporated most of the water away before the beans 
hit their critical profile marks of first crack, caramelization, second 
crack, then the flavors might taste flat and uninteresting--what might be 
called a baked bean.  The caramelization process requires moisture to 
interact with the sugars inside the bean to develop the rich, full sweetness 
we so covet in a cup of coffee.  If that moisture is evaporated by too long 
of a roast at low temperatures, then caramelization might not occur 
properly, and the chemical reactions would go awry, making off tastes and 
nasty coffee.  The browning is a separate process (Mailard Reaction), and 
begins at a lower temperature than caramelization, so the beans can roast to 
a dark color without fully developing the delicate flavors.  Baked beans 
typically look flatter, smaller and are harder (noisier) when ground.  First 
and second cracks are weak, if present at all.  Taste is flatter, 
uninteresting and sometimes downright nasty.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

16) From: Ming Wang
I second that, although my experience of baked beans is generally from taste 
only, as I've only had about 15 roasts under my belt. I find with the HG/DG 
there's just too many variables sometimes and it's easy to get lost in it 
all! I know a baked roast from a sour bread kinda taste. Sometimes it's 
there with a coffee taste, sometimes without any trace of a coffee taste. 
It's the one you pour down the sink :)

17) From: Tom Ulmer
Spoken as though the journey has made you the master of these words.
Cheers
admin] On Behalf Of Ed Needham
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 12:05 AM
The ideal roast profile will hit certain temperature marks, and the beans 
will have a certain moisture content at those marks.  If say, your heat was 
too hot and the bean was fully roasted on the outside, but still undeveloped
on the inside, the flavor would be off.  If you roasted the beans too long 
at a low temperature, and evaporated most of the water away before the beans
hit their critical profile marks of first crack, caramelization, second 
crack, then the flavors might taste flat and uninteresting--what might be 
called a baked bean.  The caramelization process requires moisture to 
interact with the sugars inside the bean to develop the rich, full sweetness
we so covet in a cup of coffee.  If that moisture is evaporated by too long 
of a roast at low temperatures, then caramelization might not occur 
properly, and the chemical reactions would go awry, making off tastes and 
nasty coffee.  The browning is a separate process (Mailard Reaction), and 
begins at a lower temperature than caramelization, so the beans can roast to
a dark color without fully developing the delicate flavors.  Baked beans 
typically look flatter, smaller and are harder (noisier) when ground.  First
and second cracks are weak, if present at all.  Taste is flatter, 
uninteresting and sometimes downright nasty.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

18) From: Ed Needham
I might be master of those words, but that's about the only thing I'd be 
called a 'master of'. 
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

19) From: Robert Yoder
Greetings, great group!
 
Here at the standards and practices institute (i.e. the Yoder Househole), we wonder if there is consensus on Baked Beans (coffee-wise).  We would like a definition a bit more operation-centered, as opposed to resultant taste.  What we seek is some kind of understanding of what it takes to produce Baked, rather than Properly-Roasted Coffee Beans (so we can avoid doing that).  I am roasting coffee in a Behmor, and have an ET thermocouple near the lower heating element and a BMT.  Thing is, in the Behmor, the ET swings as the heaters cycle, so the temperature sometimes dips during a roast, even though the BMT continues to climb.  Is Baking simply allowing any drop in the BMT before end of roast, or is it something else?
 
Thanks for any wisdom shared, and,
 
Happy Roasting,
 
robert yoder
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20) From: John A C Despres
Hi, Robert.
Dropping the temperature, even briefly is stalling the roast. But my
understanding of baking is an extended roast period. A roast that takes 25
minutes to each 1st I would consider baked.
John
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:55 AM, Robert Yoder wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: John Nanci
Unfortunately, baked-bean is a resultant taste.  It's not just an 
operation centered item.
That said, I'm not sure what John means, but my understanding for 
stalling is that the bean temperature drops, NOT the ambient 
temperature.  I drop the ambient temperature of my roasts each time 
to slow momentum and I absolutely don't have baked roasts, or even 
stalled ones.  That is what profiling is all about.
John
At 04:39 AM 2/8/2011, John A C Despres wrote:
<Snip>
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22) From: Phil Palmintere
Now why is the image of the talking dog from "Bush's Baked Beans" TV
commercials popping into my head?
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:02 AM, John Nanci wrote:
<Snip>
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23) From: michael brown
I would also consider rocketing through 1C, straight to 2C (usually at 100% power, or close to it) baking them.
Michael Bb'ham, AL
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24) From: Joseph Robertson
Robert,
as I can see by your responses above me there are about as many opinions as
there are roast levels or descriptions of roast levels.
As John touched on, I believe it has more to do with bean temp, bean probe
temp, than ambient temp.
The roasting school I went to for what is is worth, said it this way. If you
flat line your bean/probe temp for any length of time you will bake the
beans. As I understand it you should always see an increase in bean temp all
the way from start to drop or EOR. Now this ROC, or, rate of climb, before
and after 1st crack and after 1st. crack is where the skill comes in. With
out a good bean probe set up, ahh, all bets are off so to speak.
Much more guess work. Thus you see some serious Quest sales from SW's.
Joe
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Robert Yoder wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Joseph Robertson
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
Craft Coffee Roasting by Design
joe 
(360)521-3104     PO Box 451 Stevenson,Washington 98648 USA
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25) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Chris Schooley started a discussion on "baked, overdeveloped roast 
taste" on facebook:http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id0000178674418#!/note.php?note_id1344343597862&id0000178674418<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
Sweet Maria's Coffee  -  Oakland, California  - http://www.sweetmarias.comHomeroast mailing list
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26) From: Robert Yoder
Thanks, Tom,
 
I am not signed up on Facebook and would prefer not to.  Why Facebook?  Is there any other way to watch the discussion?
 
Thanks again for all you do for coffee!
 
robert
 
<Snip>
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27) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
I know - honestly I feel the same way! It's just a place where a lot 
of people can contribute to a discussion. I too prefer NOT to conduct 
these discussions on FB. -Tom
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
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28) From: Joseph Robertson
Robert,
To answer you question," Is there any other way to watch the discussion?"
There are two other ways. Google Home Page or Google Reader.
Joe
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Robert Yoder wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Joseph Robertson
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
Craft Coffee Roasting by Design
joe 
(360)521-3104     PO Box 451 Stevenson,Washington 98648 USA
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29) From: Joseph Robertson
Thanks Tom....
Joe
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Joseph Robertson
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
Craft Coffee Roasting by Design
joe 
(360)521-3104     PO Box 451 Stevenson,Washington 98648 USA
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30) From: Joseph Robertson
Not to complicate your life any further but I believe you need at least a
bare bones FB acct. to steer a conversation from Facebook to Google Reader.
You don't need to use it as others do but you can use it to find coffee
postings from coffee geeks like Coffee Shub. Sounds like a lot of hassle I
know.
If it wasn't for Tom I would have missed this one myself.
Cheers
Joe
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Joseph Robertson
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
Craft Coffee Roasting by Design
joe 
(360)521-3104     PO Box 451 Stevenson,Washington 98648 USA
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31) From: Edward Bourgeois
I've thought of it as the results of a stalled caramelization  while
the moisture continues to escape and the beans continue to bake.
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
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32) From: Joseph Robertson
Ed,
Exactly my thinking.  Thus the flat line as I call it when the temp reading
from the bean mass does not change or climb through the start of roast
through 1st c and on to 2nd c. if you like going there.
I'm trying to split this discussion into two parts so I can understand it
better.
1st part being, how you physically bake coffee beans, I mean what steps do
you and I as a roaster go through to cause the beans to bake instead of
roast. I call it "Stalling the roast" for short. Now how you do it with your
particular roaster should be the same whether it's an IRoast2 or Quest, or
frying pan. As I understand it now.
The second part being what this actually cups out as or tastes like.
What I have seen with this thread is a blending of the two. In other words,
the baking of the beans and what baked beans taste like.
What it tastes like to me is not as important as how to prevent it from
happening in the first place.
Thanks all for a rewarding thread.
Joe
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Joseph Robertson
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
Craft Coffee Roasting by Design
joe 
(360)521-3104     PO Box 451 Stevenson,Washington 98648 USA
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33) From: Robert Yoder
Thank you kindly, Joe, for your comments.  As an old academician, I believe in and cherish the free exchange of knowledge, and, as an old fogey, I resent the intrusion of multiple interfering interfaces. This list of Tom's has served admirably and I wonder why I must jump this additional hoop.  I also worry about putting more and more of my personal information out there for computers to lose or set loose.  Why the Hell is my birthdate necessary for the access of coffee-roasting information, freely-shared on other media?
 
As you rightly surmise, there are such serious issues around me currently that I really bridle at this obstacle, but I will remember your kind recommendations.
 
Youir comment that you would have missed this stuff is dead-on.  Why this was setup this way is not that clear, since the Homeroast list and the other Coffee-related sites seemed to have been adequate.
 
Thanks again for your recommendations.
 
robert yoder
 
<Snip>
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34) From: John A C Despres
Drop in bean temp is what I meant. I understand using ET to control BMT,
therefore profiling.
Sure, baked beans is a resultant taste, but isn't it a flawed roast that
causes it? Baked beans don't happen by themselves, so it comes back to bad
profiling. I also drop my ET, and don't get baked beans.
John
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 9:02 AM, John Nanci wrote:
<Snip>
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35) From: Joseph Robertson
John,
If it was that easy to prevent baked beans than why is there so much
discussion on this topic? Is it really that simple? I would like to think
so......
This is why I'm asking questions here and taking part in the discussion. You
help make a point for me which I'm not making very well.
That point being, if we don't fiqure out what causes it in the roasting
process with all the different kinds of roasters out there then why talk
about what it tastes like.
What kind of roaster are you using John?
Joe
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 4:40 AM, John A C Despres wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Joseph Robertson
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
Craft Coffee Roasting by Design
joe 
(360)521-3104     PO Box 451 Stevenson,Washington 98648 USA
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36) From: John A C Despres
Exactly, Joe. I don't wish to imply it's an easily solved problem, nor do I
wish to imply I've never had problems. I'm just sharing what I've read and
therefore know about baking beans, however flawed it may be.
Gene Cafe.
John
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
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37) From: Robert Yoder
From: robotyonder
To: homeroast
Subject: RE: [Homeroast] Baked Beans
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 22:56:27 -0800
Thanks, Ed and Joe,
 
My sense has been that somehow baking (in this context) is usually interpreted as flat-lined rate of Bean Mass Temperature rise.  In my case, roasting with the Behmor, that possibility arises when doing the door-dance to slow the roast in order to extend the interval between First Crack and End of Roast.  Before learning about the door dance and starting it, I was getting some pretty unfulfilling roasts, and after I started the door dance, the flavors started to pop for me for the first time, as I was finally able to extend the post First crack time.  The operational problem was how to manage door-opening without baking by slowing too far.  You are dead on when you say the Quest is a better choice because it affords the means of assessing Rate of Rise, but so is Ed's highly-instrumented roaster (with, IIRC, a speedometer)(perfect!), and so are others, so equipped.
 
I have managed to get a sort of half-assed Bean Mass Temperature gauge into the Behmor, but it has only about Five-degree accuracy, so I can't get more precise in my attempt to maintain a slowest-possible, but steady rate of rise.
 
Incidentally, I cannot imagine how folks can handle all the tasks of reading ET, BMT, and door-dancing at the critical moments of end of roast.  I have quit looking at the ET (because it fluctuates with the power-changes) and busy myself with the door and BMT.
 
All in great fun and,
 
Happy Roasting,
 
robert yoder
 
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38) From: Yakster
Robert,
I'm interested to hear how you were able to half-ass the BMT probe.  I've
seen the full solution of using the probe as the pivot on the left and
hesitate to go that far, but I might be willing to half-ass something to get
better readings then what I currently have from my ET probe.
Full solution shown here:http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/modding-behmor-t8284-10.htmlAs for keeping track of the variables during the roast, it's easiest if you
have a computer graph or rate of change indication doing the work for you.
 Some examples below.http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/any-way-to-have-meter-display-degrees-rise-min-rate-t12174.htmlhttp://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/artisan-beta-roasting-software-available-t16078.html
-Chris
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39) From: Robert Yoder
Hi Chris,
 
I learn a lot from your posts and thank you for them.
 
Having experienced high dudgeon from the group in response to my suggestion for creative reuse of the hand-wipes provided at the entrance to grocery stores, I'm reluctant to expose this crude hack to the outside world, but if you like, I can send you pictures and you can snicker quietly to yourself, if you like. 
 
Just let me know off-list and I'll take the pictures.  The readings I get are not absolutes (Tom himself mentions that different BMT probes yield different numbers), but the data seem useful to me, at least in respect to the Baking problem.
 
Happy Roasting,
 
robert yoder
 
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40) From: Joseph Robertson
Thanks John,
I'm on the same page. I'm doing my best not to bake but I have so much to
learn. I have no idea what they taste like and I would just as soon not
drink it but that said if someone said this coffee is baked I sure would
want to expose my taste bud memory bank to it to get a idea of what it is
all about.
Cheers,
Joe
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 7:29 AM, John A C Despres wrote:
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-- 
Joseph Robertson
Sasquatch Coffee Roasters
Craft Coffee Roasting by Design
joe 
(360)521-3104     PO Box 451 Stevenson,Washington 98648 USA
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41) From: Jim Gundlach
Joe,
    Tom sells some that he roasts, and shipping enforces the rest time.  It is a good way to taste what you are working toward.  
      
           http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.roasted.php     pecan jim 
On Feb 10, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
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