HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Roast Levels (27 msgs / 732 lines)
1) From: alfred
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
How do roast levels relate to first and second crack?
With m;y Hot Top and 300 grams, I generally reach first crack in about =
17 minutes
Second crack in about 20 minutes and this usually results in a City + to =
Full City roast.
What say you?

2) From: Edward Spiegel
Hii Alfred,
I recommend visiting Tom's excellent pictorial roasting guide on the SweetMaria's site at:http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.htmlIn short: the verge of second crack is Full City, the first snaps of second crack yield Full City+ , City+ happens between the end of first crack and the beginning of second crack.
Best,
Edward
At 11:59 AM -0700 10/23/04, alfred wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: alfred
Edward;
Agreed, it is an excellent reference. I get a bit confused in comparing the 
indivdual bean pictures with multi-bean photos.
The individual bean photos at a given level look more like mine, but in the 
multi-bean photos, mine look much darker.Maybe it's the photography

4) From: Edward Spiegel
At 12:24 PM -0700 10/23/04, alfred wrote:
<Snip>
Think of the colors as relative to each other rather than absolute. Smell, texture and sound (and internal bean temp) are more accurate than bean color when judging degree of roast. The exact color of a particular roast level will vary from variety to variety (probably even year to year). So, I personally don't think that one can reliably distinguish City+ from Full City+ by color alone (for instance).
Just my .02,
Edward

5) From: alfred
Think of the colors as relative to each other rather than absolute. Smell, 
texture and sound (and internal bean temp) are more accurate than bean color 
when judging degree of roast. The exact color of a particular roast level 
will vary from variety to variety (probably even year to year). So, I 
personally don't think that one can reliably distinguish City+ from Full 
City+ by color alone (for instance).
Yes, I agree. I notice that the times on the Hot Top to first crack and 
second are pretty consistant. I suspect that using the cracks rather than 
the color is preferrable.Today I roasted Nicaraguan CE El Regresso just into 
second crack. It looks like a perfect Full City or maybe Full City +

6) From: Rick Copple
We discussed roast levels a few days ago. I decided to check out more 
exactly how Tom is measuring them, and it fairly well was along the 
lines of what I was thinking, though I think I had confused his Full 
City with Full City+ (I was thinking full city was just inside 2nd 
crack, like a couple snaps, but actually it is before you enter 2nd 
crack...then again, if you use the first outlier crack as a guide to 
stop you are probably shortly before really entering second crack...if 
you can hear those first ones) So, I thought I would share Tom's notes 
on this, a footnote which sums it up rather nicely I thought:
<>
He does note that City roast is when the bean has cleared 1st crack, 
which was about what I had in mind. He does also say that temperature, 
smell and color are guides as well, and all of these taken together can 
get you pretty much on target with various roast levels. Snaps are not 
the only means to measure this, but they are handy because they do tend 
to correspond with internal bean temperatures. However, there are always 
exceptions to the rule and some beans will get to first crack earlier, I 
suppose because maybe the bean structure isn't as strong and so it takes 
less pressure from the expanding gas and water to break it open, meaning 
it is at a bit of lower temperature when it finishes 1st crack and so 
maybe not up to a true city roast yet.
However, generally it seems that is going to work as a guide to know 
what to shoot for short of having a good temp. measuring system in 
place. Even that will generally not measure the exact internal 
temperature of the bean and a denser bean will take a different amount 
of time to get up to temp than a less dense bean. So many variables, so 
many coffees, so many great flavors!
-- 
Rick Copple
Marble Falls, TX

7) From: Wally Merrin
I'm still not getting a clear understanding of roast level appearance  
after reading various descriptions and looking at the pictures on the  
SM site.  Today I went a little farther then i intended on a 1/2 pound  
roast of Costa Rica Helsar "Typica Villalobos".  I was shooting for  
Full City per Tom's write-up.  If there are a few beans (less then 5%  
of the roast) with small oil spots, but 95+% are dark but no oil  
showing, did I get into Vienna or am I likely on the dark side of Full  
City+?
Thanks,
Wally
==
Wally Merrin
wmerrin
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8) From: Les
You are past Full City.  In my opinion, color is not the best
indicator of roast.  Various beans from different countries color
differently.  Also a washed bean gets darker than a dry processed
bean.  In my opinion crack and how the temperature ramps up are the
best indicators of the degree of roast.  Right now I have a Kenya that
was roasted to a city roast (roast stopped at 420 degrees) that is way
darker than the Ethiopia "Black Sun" that was roasted to a Full city
that was stopped at 440 degrees.  Second crack in my roaster starts at
442-445 depending on the bean.  Knowing when 1st and 2nd crack starts
and the relative temperature in your roaster provide the best
indicators as to degree of roast.  If you can't measure temapture, I
would recommend that you time how long it takes your roaster to go
from first crack to second crack.  If you keep the weight of your
beans the same, this time shouldn't vary too much.  Stopping the roast
15-20 seconds before 2nd crack should get you real close to a nice
full city.  I hope this helps.
Les
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:39 PM, Wally Merrin  wrote:
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9) From: Kevin Ford
As an amateur that has done about 90 roasts on my Behmor (which I
love), I still can't tell what roast level is being produced. I mostly
use 1 P3 D with 2++ for extra time at start. I love the roast level it
produces in most of the coffee I've been roasting (mostly centrals).
It sounds like I need to listen for the cracks to determine roast
levels, but this is very difficult on my Behmor. Does anyone have any
tips? My struggle seems to be from not being able to distinguish
between end of first to start of second, outliers, etc.
On 1/29/09, Les  wrote:
<Snip>
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10) From: Kevin Ford
Meant to say: "I love the roast level it produces in most of the
coffee I've been roasting (mostly centrals), but I have no idea what
level it is."
Also, I give coffee to other people and feel like an idiot that I
can't tell them to what degree the roast is.
On 1/29/09, Kevin Ford  wrote:
<Snip>
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11) From: Joseph Robertson
Les,
Very nice helper notes for the new guys. I'll be a new roaster guy for
many years. When will you be starting an online class/course in basic
home roasting. Your nice USRC is a fine machine when explaining the
basics. How about a utube lesson? <];^)
I know there has been quite a number of utube videos already but not
by the father of the thor tamper line and not by someone with as much
hands on as you Les.
Best Regards,
Joe
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Les  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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12) From: Benjamin VerHage
I haven't had any trouble hearing the cracks on my Behmor, but it can be tr=
icky sometimes to determine when 1st ends and2nd begins, especially when=
 they overlap (in blends or DPs especially). Some beans start and end first=
 crack obviously andthere is a noticeable gap between 1st and 2nd.I h=
ad this last night with some Java I roasted for a coworker...very consisten=
t bean to bean with the cracks being grouped fairly tightly.
I roast a lot of DP coffees and those can be trickier. First can start with=
 a few beans and the snaps can be very spread out. That makes it harder to =
tell when 1st actually started and ended. Also, 1st crack outliers can stil=
l be cracking when the 2nd crack outliers start. I can usually tell the dif=
ference in the two just from the sound. That "non-exactness" used to drive =
me crazy, but now I just roll with it. I try to record the first of the 1st=
 cracks and then record when the bean mass starts cracking. I then try to r=
ecord when the bean mass ends even if there are few snaps here and there af=
terwards. I don't know how much that helps, but I can tell you it's forced =
me to start using my eyes and nose even more. Those senses added to the cra=
cking averages gets me close almost every time now.
I never roasted before I got the Behmor and I just did my 60th roast last n=
ight. I learn something every time and instead of obsessing over how much I=
 don't know, I just go with it and adjust my process as I learn more and mo=
re. Even when it doesn't come out perfect, I'm still drinking some pretty d=
arn good coffee! Another good way is just trial and error. Roast a half pou=
nd, see how it comes out, write down as many notes as you can and adjust ne=
xt time you roast.
Ben
From: Kevin Ford 
To: homeroast
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:45:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Roast levels
As an amateur that has done about 90 roasts on my Behmor (which I
love), I still can't tell what roast level is being produced. I mostly
use 1 P3 D with 2++ for extra time at start. I love the roast level it
produces in most of the coffee I've been roasting (mostly centrals).
It sounds like I need to listen for the cracks to determine roast
levels, but this is very difficult on my Behmor. Does anyone have any
tips? My struggle seems to be from not being able to distinguish
between end of first to start of second, outliers, etc.
On 1/29/09, Les  wrote:
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offee.com
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offee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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Homeroast mailing list
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13) From: Benjamin VerHage
I forgot to mention that I cut a small window in the left side of my chaff =
collector and that has definitely helped to visualize the roast level. Shoo=
t me a PM if you want more details on that.
Ben
From: Kevin Ford 
To: homeroast
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:47:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Roast levels
Meant to say: "I love the roast level it produces in most of the
coffee I've been roasting (mostly centrals), but I have no idea what
level it is."
Also, I give coffee to other people and feel like an idiot that I
can't tell them to what degree the roast is.
On 1/29/09, Kevin Ford  wrote:
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<Snip>
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Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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14) From: Seth Grandeau
Ben,
I definitely take the view of roasting as art, as much as science.  Given my
tools (Behmor, my ears, my eyes, my nose), I'm never going to get 100%
repeatable results.  But, I've enjoyed all but one roast I've done in the
Behmor (I ran out of time on one, just as it was entering first crack.  I
then panicked and hit off, hoping to be able to restart it.  No such luck).
How big a hole did you cut?
-Seth
On 1/29/09, Benjamin VerHage  wrote:
<Snip>
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15) From: Justin Marquez
Kevin -
I have about the same number of roasts on my Behmor, too.  I have noticed
that the beans which drop thru the drum seem to crack early and that can
throw you off. Try loading the drum, running it on "COOL" for a couple of
minutes, take out the beans that fell out and then start your roast.  This
reduces the "fall-thru" beans issue. Listen for the first crack. If it was a
real first crack outlier, within a few seconds there will be more first
cracks. If it was a fall-thru bean popping, then it may be a long time (30
secs+) before first crack actually starts.
I load 2 C by volume of beans which is reliably close to 320 grams (Close
enough that I quit weighing my regular beans) on my fave Guat Antigua beans.
I roast 1# P1 18:00 and when I heard the first crack outlier, I add 1 min 45
secs to that for approximate end of first crack. Start of second crack is at
about C1 Outlier + 2 minutes. I usually hit cool just before that point.
Very occasionally I will coast into 1 or maybe 2 second cracks.
To be honest, I really like the Behmor and the convenience it brings and its
capacity, but I feel much more in control of a roast with HG/DB.
Just now my Behmor is offline. Last weekend I got an ERR 6 code followed by
ERR 1 code on OFF followed by COOL. Warranty repair parts are on the way
already.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Kevin Ford  wrote:
<Snip>
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16) From: Justin Marquez
heheheh... if YOU don't know what the roast level is, then THEY surely don't
know. Tell them it is "about between City and FC+" and you are almost
certain to be truthful.
:-)
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Kevin Ford  wrote:
<Snip>
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17) From: Benjamin VerHage
I did something like this:http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/2008/01/window-to-roast-behmor-=modification.html
Maybe a touch bigger than that. I drewtheproposedcuton the coll=
ector and when I looked through the window it wasa bit low, so I moved i=
t up a little bit. Super easy mod using a cutoff wheel on a dremel. Theh=
olesmake a nice guide for cutting. It lets a bit of chaff through during=
 cooling, but it's worth it for the extra visualization. I just vacuum it u=
p with a dust buster when I open the door. Also nice that it doesn't void t=
he warranty (I'm sure it voids the chaff collector warranty however).
Ben
From: Seth Grandeau 
To: homeroast
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:33:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Roast levels
Ben,
I definitely take the view of roasting as art, as much as science. Given=
 my
tools (Behmor, my ears, my eyes, my nose), I'm never going to get 100%
repeatable results. But, I've enjoyed all but one roast I've done in the
Behmor (I ran out of time on one, just as it was entering first crack. I
then panicked and hit off, hoping to be able to restart it. No such luck=
).
How big a hole did you cut?
-Seth
On 1/29/09, Benjamin VerHage  wrote:
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Homeroast mailing list
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Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
      =
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18) From: raymanowen
"...did I get into Vienna or..?"
How does it taste to you? Nothing else matters, does it? -ro
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Wally Merrin wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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19) From: Seth Grandeau
Thanks, Ben.  It may be time to buy a dremel. :)
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Benjamin VerHage 

20) From: Wally Merrin
On Feb 1, 2009, at 12:36 AM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, it does matter to me, since I want to be able to compare notes  
with people.  When Tom posts a bean evaluation on his website I would  
like to know whether I am approximating his roast levels.  Since we  
are all using different equipment and are roasting with different  
environmental conditions it would be helpful to have some frame of  
reference.  Whether color/oil is a good indication of roast levels or  
not, it is about all we have to go on, since temperature measurements  
are so dependent on exactly what temperature is being measured.
Wally
==
Wally Merrin
wmerrin
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21) From: raymanowen
If I can generate good-tasting coffee brews, good for me. My philosophy is
that, since coffee is a hyrdocarbon form, it's always changing, albeit
minutely.
It is impossible to pigeonhole coffee by describing the flavor as "exactly
this or that." Even so, where's the adventure in achieving Flavor
[75A4sub17L3]?
Almost as much fun as duplicating keys at the hardware store.
If you brew subsequent shots from the same batch of beans, the palate of
flavors sparkles differently as the beans age by hours or days. Tell me how
you're going to exactly duplicate a roast profile with *different beans*.
If you ever reduce coffee to a programmed series of numbers, tell *$. Their
CEO would like to rehire some automatons and get several hundred shops back
to productivity.
Wonderful effect on the Bottom Line. The cholesterol clogged traffic
arteries in Denver and the Damn Ryan in Chi town might flow better if Drive
Time didn't resemble a football scrimmage. Heart Doc almost named Angina...
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Gabi -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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22) From: Edward Bourgeois
Think it just takes lots of practice.lots and lots.  I can roast 2
batches to the same color and make them taste very different. Tom does
a great job of giving you the personality of each bean in his
description that now I'm realizing the importance of when roasting.
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Wally Merrin  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list">http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/ Co-President- Ma. Agriculture in the Classroomhttp://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list
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23) From: Les
When I had my air popper, every roast was a new experience.  With the
RK drum I could come close to duplicating a roast.  With my USRC
commercial roaster, I can duplicate the roast with no problems, and it
is very easy.  Power, controlability, measurability  and stability are
a nice thing.
Les
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Edward Bourgeois  wrote:
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24) From: Joseph Robertson
Ray,
your funny, I read these posts in hopes I will see one from you. Would
you consider doing a Utube video for us. The impact would be intense
like a great shot pulled by miKe M. and possibly by you.  <];^)
Cheers,
Joe
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 10:17 PM,   wrote:
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-- =
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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25) From: Tom Ulmer
Indeed. I've always had a picture in my mind of Ray looking much as Dr.
Emmet Brown...

26) From: Brian Kamnetz
Is  Dr. Emmet Brown the Back to the Future character?
Brian
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
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27) From: Lynne
Yes!
I hope Ray isn't insulted... but I agree. Ray, I think I'd be disappointed
if you *didn't* look like him...
Lynne
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Brian Kamnetz  wrote:
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