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Topic: NPR Coffee (46 msgs / 896 lines)
1) From: Mark Tosiello
Right now on NPR, everything coffee......talking about the history of 
coffee right now....
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2) From: Gene Smith
Mark, I got this hours later, but searched the NPR website to no avail. 
Nothing found by searching under "coffee" either.  Any clues?
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

3) From: Jeff Oien
I heard Al Gore was instrumental in the development of coffee.

4) From: Randy Allen
it seems that he invented the internet instead, so people would have a 
reason to
drink coffee all night....

5) From: Peter Schmidt
And in his first caffeine induced brainstorm, the internet was concieved.
Where would be w/o Al?
unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

6) From: John Blumel
On Dec 15, 2004, at 11:08pm, Peter Schmidt wrote:
Yeah, there's nothing like trashing a guy on the day his mother dies.
John Blumel

7) From: Andy Thomas
--- Gene Smith  wrote:
Gene, Mark's original message was dated Sun Dec 12.
The coffee segment was on To the Best of Our Knowledge
(Wisconsin Public Radio, not NPR). Try this link:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

8) From: Jeff Oien
John Blumel wrote:
I disagree that he was being trashed. I had no idea his mother died 
today. I apologize for the bad timing.

9) From: Felix Dial
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:22:54 -0600, Jeff Oien  wrote:
If you wouldn't have made a comment such as the one you made while
seated at a table with a bunch of strangers, then you shouldn't have
posted it to the list. If you would make a comment, well ...
I haven't been on the list as long as some of the others here, but
from what I gather, the list functions much better if political and
religous comments aren't posted.

10) From: Edward Spiegel
At 8:37 PM -0800 12/15/04, Felix Dial wrote:
Well said.

11) From: Angelo
I disagree... Some of the best times we had on this list was when someone 
went over the top on one or more of those very subjects....You should have 
been here for the "Ginny's Seven Words" thread...lol. The protagonists in 
that one are now very friendly...No harm done...and it was fun :-)
Rumor has it that the French Revolution was dreamed up in the coffee houses 
of Paris. Now, that's pretty political...

12) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
On Dec 15, 2004, at 10:02 PM, Randy Allen wrote:
Actually, Gore wrote and sponsored the legislation that got the 
internet started and without Al Gore, Sweet Maria's would still be a 
small coffee shop limited to serving a few lucky people in Columbus, 
Ohio.   Bush thinks he had something to do with it since his middle 
initial is W.
    Jim Gundlach

13) From: Justin Marquez
What is now the internet was at one time a loosely connected
"backbone" of computers connecting various research and academic
entities.  It grew into the internet.  It was not started as a result
of legislation.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.comOn Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:28:34 -0600, Pecan Jim Gundlach

14) From: Ben Treichel
Angelo wrote:
So that explains how the french became revolting! ;)

15) From: John Blumel
On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:47am, Justin Marquez wrote:
Where do you think they got the money to fund this? From government 
funding that was authorized by legislation. In fact, the Internet grew 
out of a Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) project. If 
you think that legislation had no effect on the development of the 
Internet, you don't know much about research or government.
Regarding the original issue and in support of Jim G's points:
1) Al Gore NEVER said that he 'invented' the Internet. The claim that 
he did say this is based on a gross distortion of comments Gore made in 
a CNN interview during the 2000 presidential (primary) campaign. A 
distortion that continues to be parroted by the gullible.
2) Al Gore WAS instrumental in legislation that greatly affected the 
direction and speed of development of the Internet.
3) Al Gore WAS directly responsible for the funding that led to the 
development of the first graphical web browser, Mosaic, which 
essentially resulted in the WWW that. exists today.
If you dispute these facts, please go do the research on them before 
you post more fictitious nonsense to the list.
John Blumel

16) From: Justin Marquez
OK, you win.  I guess Al Gore did invent the internet.  (And it's true
that I don't know much about government or research, other than I go
to work every day and my substantial taxes help to pay for it.)
I bow to the wisdom of the curmudgeons.
I'll post no more ficticious nonsense. 
(There - was that properly contrite, or what?)
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.comOn Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:59:36 -0500, John Blumel

17) From: Justin Marquez
Now that I have been properly contrite and since you obviously know
this topic well, I have a question for you.
Did the DARPA net funding for this come before someone in these
research entities had the bright idea to link up or was it part of an
overall funding bill for general research activities?  In other
wordss, was there a single piece of legislation that was just done for
the networking?
I'm guessing (and this is truly a guess) that the funding for the
networking costs was likely part of a large funding bill covering many
different aspects of the ongoing research and that the legislators
were not particularly aware of what the networking project would
eventually grow into. Since it grew into something pretty useful and
cool, politicos were only too happy to take credit for it, when in
fact at the time it was passed, it was probably just another ho-hum
deal to them.
That is what I really meant by "not started as a result of
legislation". I stated it poorly.  And it is a guess on my part.  
Maybe you know otherwise.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.comOn Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:59:36 -0500, John Blumel

18) From: John Blumel
On Dec 16, 2004, at 10:25am, Justin Marquez wrote:
No. And to repeat, he never said that he did.
What he did do, and rightly claim credit for, is take a large part in 
creating the conditions that spurred development of the Internet, and 
particularly the WWW, by sponsoring and/or working to pass legislation 
that promoted this development and, to varying extents, set conditions 
that affected the direction and pace of development.
John Blumel

19) From: Edward Spiegel
Thanks for your post John. While I agree with Felix's assertion that politics is best left off the list, I appreciate your taking the time to point out the facts here since the thread was preceded by the repetition (or at least the insinuation) of those oft-repeated fallacious accusations about Al Gore.
It should really be emphasized that it is no trivial accomplishment to successfully fund research projects that don't have an obvious commercial application. People forget that before the WWW took off that the project was considered esoteric and of little interest to anybody but the military and academics. It was just the kind of project that many in today's government would not wanted to have funded.
Can get back to arguing about coffee.
At 9:59 AM -0500 12/16/04, John Blumel wrote:

20) From: Greg Scace
Being a person who works at a government research lab doing research that 
directly benefits the semiconductor industry in this country, I really get 
irritated when I hear negative comments about government and about taxes by 
folks who don't have a clue about what we do with the tax dollars that we 
receive to do the nation's measurement research.  I'd feel better about it 
if the folks making the comments were well informed.  See www.nist.gov to 
learn how your tax dollars support America's industrial measurement needs.
Now back to coffee and leave  politics off of this list!
At 09:25 AM 12/16/2004 -0600, you wrote:

21) From: Jim Wheeler
At the risk of prolonging the thread, I just retired from a government
research facility and agree with Greg.  Our research tended to yield
commercial applications that profited others.  However, my wife and I
worked at the government facility because we thought it the right
thing to do.  No, I didn't go into consulting upon retirement and just
turned down another such offer.
This thread started with a bit of misinformation and the corrections
included other misinformation and stereotyping.  Not all government
employees are slugs.  Dilbert is popular because employess tend to be
alike, despite the employer.
BTW, the ARPANET was a military-funded facility that benefited
universities (originally) because they were conducting research with
military applications.  We were using the ARPANET long before the
government funded Mosaic.
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:16:15 -0500, Greg Scace  wrote:
Second the last note, especially when you consider that most
employees, government or othewise drink coffee.
Jim in Skull Valley

22) From: Jeff Oien
Well that was entertaining. I decided not to respond to any more
of this thread.
But back to the subject, the books Coffee Basics and Coffee: A
Guide to Buying, Brewing and Enjoying both have nice historical
info on coffee. I found both in my library system and SM's sells
one of them:http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.book.poster.misc.shtml(the other is sold out)

23) From: owen cox
The legislation enabled a platform for creativity-some good, some
perhaps not so good.
Would you also suggest Edison had nothing to do with lighting or the
Wright brothers with human flight?
owen cox
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:47:55 -0600, Justin Marquez  wrote:

24) From: Brett Mason
OMG now you've done it Jeff!  You invoked the liberal scientists by
saying something out of line, and the deluge is gunna run its course!
I find this fascinating...
And by the way, how insensitive can you be?  Like Al who wouldn't
count votes from the soldiers serving abroad...
Entertainment at its finest...  Best served with a Christmas blend of
Uganda Bugisu, Colombia Narino, Indian Mysore and Brazil Mogiana...
Regards all,
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:22:54 -0600, Jeff Oien  wrote:
Brett Mason
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

25) From: John Blumel
On Dec 16, 2004, at 12:57pm, Brett Mason wrote:
Somehow, Brett, we can always count on you for the basest, most 
flagrant lies and distortions we see on this list.
John Blumel

26) From: Brett Mason
But best taken with a good coffee so you have at least one great
lingering afterthought when all is said and done!
Regards John and all,
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:18:23 -0500, John Blumel
Brett Mason
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

27) From: Edward Spiegel
At 9:57 AM -0800 12/16/04, Brett Mason wrote:
Please, if you are going to bring politics to the list, make contributions based on fact, not spin. The Republicans spent huge amounts (much more than the Democrats) in Florida keeping votes from being counted -- that includes absentee and overseas ballots in counties where the Republicans believed that such votes would benefit the Democrats.
Your posting comes across as lighthearted and a joke but insinuates something that perpetuates a gross mischaracterization of what happened in Florida.

28) From: Brett Mason
OK All, I need to apologize if I have caused offense!  My posts are
often intended for fun, and I do love to throw politics in because of
all the responses...
Please know I appreciate everyone here, my buddy John Blumel included too!
I hope you all have a great Christmas, may your stockings be filled
with Gaggia Gadgets, Rocky Racoons - oops I mean Rancillos, and may
your beans never scorch!
Regards all,
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:50:20 -0800, Edward Spiegel
Brett Mason
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

29) From: MMore
Boy, if he had know that this discussion would be the great grandchild of his 
foresight, he never would have "invented" it :) :)
Michael A. Roaster of Vienna, Va.

30) From: MMore
GWB has invented something too.  Instead of 'WWW', though, his starts with 
'OIL' :)
Sorry.  I couldn't help myself.
Now, back to my Stir Crazy and Convection oven!!!
Happy Holidays, Everyone!!!
Michael A. Roaster of Vienna, Va.

31) From: John Blumel
On Dec 16, 2004, at 10:48am, Justin Marquez wrote:
First of all, the DARPA project that became ARPANET was started before 
Al Gore was in Congress and no one is claiming that he was there at 
it's birth, handing a check over to the researcher(s) who came up with 
the initial idea. What is being asserted is that, throughout Gore's 
political career, he supported and sponsored legislation and policy 
that directly and indirectly led to the creation of the Internet that 
exists today, which is far different from the original ARPANET.
It also bespeaks a fundamental misunderstanding to say that law and 
policy makers deserve no credit from the outcome of legislation and 
policy if they didn't intend that exact outcome or if there wasn't a 
specific piece of legislation or executive act that directly led to a 
specific discovery or invention. In some cases, funds are specifically 
directed to projects, like Greg's work at NIST, where a specific focus 
and result are desired, although, even there, the actual result may end 
up being somewhat different than originally imagined. More often, 
legislation that authorizes research funding, besides providing money, 
sets parameters for research and helps to create environments that 
promote creativity. Law and policy makers who work to target that 
funding to specific areas with general ideas about what they hope to 
promote, deserve credit for sponsoring the creativity that results in 
the eventual discoveries and inventions made possible by that funding, 
and to some degree, deserve credit for the discoveries and inventions 
that their work made possible.
Did JFK do the technical work required to put men on the moon? No. Does 
JFK deserve credit for putting men on the moon and for our space 
program as it exists today, as well as, for all the related technology 
and science that came from it? Emphatically, yes. And, this in no way 
diminishes the contributions from the thousands of researchers and 
engineers who did the actual science and R&D.
John Blumel

32) From: Tom Ulmer

33) From: Rick.Farris
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
Four hours and nobody has jumped on this one yet?  Ok, I'll take a =
The DARPA net funding was specifically to develop a redundant means of
communicating in the case of nuclear war.  The Pentagon envisioned =
where entire cities were turned into smoking craters and all the =
were jammed and they were looking for some form of communication =
that could survive under those conditions.
The end result of the project was the development of the Internet =
(IP) and the associated lower-level routing functions.
So to answer your question, yes, it was a specific project, not a =
(like, say, transistors) of another line of research.  The funding was
specifically for a self-healing network.
-- Rick
12/16/2004 2:49:55 PM
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The information transmitted herewith is sensitive information intended =
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34) From: John Blumel
On Dec 16, 2004, at 5:56pm, Rick.Farris wrote:
Although, if I remember correctly, the basic idea was conceived by 
(again, if I remember correctly) a professor at MIT, prior to the the 
initiation of the project. (Of course, he was probably working on some =
other government funded research at the time.) However, I believe the 
idea was embryonic at that time and, without DARPA's initiation of the =
project, who knows where it would have gone.
John Blumel

35) From: Randy Allen
not that it's related to coffee roasting, but as there seems to be a bit of 
interest in this topic,
there is a book entitled "Hackers" by steven levy that covers the late 
fifties to 1983 at the
introduction of the PC.
it doesn't cover the subject from the political aspect, but instead from 
the hardware
or "hacking" aspect.  the current popular definition of "hacking" did not 
apply then.
hacking instead referred to lashing hardware together to form a system.
having seen the photos on sweet maria's of improvised roasters, it seems 
most of you
are hacking coffee, so it might be an interesting read.....

36) From: Brett Mason
GREAT BOOK by the way!
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:26:09 -0800, Randy Allen  wrote:
Brett Mason
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

37) From: Justin Marquez
Hmmmm.... I don't believe those research efforts were funded by tax dollars.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.comOn Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:48:47 -0500, owen cox  wrote:

38) From: Gene Smith
I think the larger issue is what role government support of research and 
universtities has played in the creation of the world as we know it.  The 
romantic fantasy (like a lot of current romantic fantasies) is essentially 
19th century...the lone inventor working in his kitchen invents 
world-changing technology.  It might be a helpful anodyne to remember that 
many, if not most, of those Industrial Revolution heroes ended up on the 
short end of the stick when they fell into the hands of proper capitalists 
who developed their ideas into marketable products and mighty industrial 
Since the storied time of the backyard inventor, a huge percentage of 
'discoveries' have been made by people brought up through a very complex 
educational system that has benefitted enormously from government money. 
The university system as we know it today would be inconcievable on a 
private, pay-as-you-go basis.
For someone to come through this system, benefitting from the enormous 
synergy of massive research expenditures - just since WWII, let alone 
before - and then take the 'lone genius inventor' stance would just seem 
comical to me were it not so pernicious.
It would be like someone today researching something on the internet and 
then piously claiming they did it completely by themselves, deserving all 
credit.  Individualism is a great thing and much of our success surely 
comes from recognition of that impulse...but to dismiss the enormous 
infrastructure created (often grudgingly) by society as unimportant 
compared to individual creativity in today's world is about as realistic as 
Harlequin romances.
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

39) From: Gary Townsend
Gene, you think too much...go roast up some presents for your local
mail carrier, they probably worked overtime getting you your green
beans all year.
 And make a Cappo for your fellow workers... ( My Boss gave me the day
off today, after I pelted the office with Cappo's on Wed and Thurs.)
And Merry Christmas, Y'ALL !
:-) Gary

40) From: Mark Tosiello
This is very correct.  As a netizen since 1976 (at an academic 
institution that I won't name at this time...:-)  ), I agree that John's 
information is extremely well researched, and entirely accurate, if not 
widely known.
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41) From: John Blumel
On Dec 17, 2004, at 1:20pm, Gary Townsend wrote:
Maybe he's trying to start a trend.
John Blumel

42) From: Gene Smith
Tee hee!  I work at home, Gary, so my co-workers get cappos every day.  And 
I am quite certain that the nice lady who delivers my mail would have a 
better idea of what to do with a gift of nuke-u-ler waste than homeroasted 
coffee beans.
Still...I'd better get downstairs and clean up a bit before a zillion 
people show up for our Xmas party tomorrow.  Or, more importantly, before 
my wife and business partner returns to the 'office' to discover I 
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

43) From: Gene Smith
No, no, no...he knows better than that!  I am reminded of a line from 
Brother Dave Gardner (my sympathies to those who know not of him) in his 
version of Julius Caesar:
"Oh yon Cassius he have a lean and hungry look...sittin' out in that little 
house away from the house, eatin' that Nodoz an' sippin' that Airwick...oh, 
he thinks too much, he's about half-smart."
Gene Smith
about half-smart, in Houston

44) From: David M. Lewis
At 9:48 AM -0600 12/16/04, Justin Marquez wrote:
The ARPA research (it was ARPA in those days) came out of the 
establishment of the office of Information Processing Technology, 
under a guy named Larry Roberts. I'm not aware that the legislation 
that funded it got more specific than that. When I got involved, 
which for the mossbacks on the list was on the ILLIAC IV project, 
also funded out of that office, it was the early seventies and the 
nascent network already stretched from Hawaii to Norway, although it 
had very few nodes. As I recall, the original two machines were 
hooked up at UCLA, although it might have been one at UCLA and one at 
another place nearby.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary 
depends upon his not understanding it."
	-- Upton Sinclair

45) From: David M. Lewis
At 6:05 PM -0500 12/16/04, John Blumel wrote:
They guy you're thinking of was Paul Baran, for whom I once worked. 
He came up with the idea of packet switching and initially took it to 
the phone companies. They universally patted him on the head and said 
"now, sonny, let us tell you how we build phone networks."
I can see this discussion is going to require a *big* mug!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary 
depends upon his not understanding it."
	-- Upton Sinclair

46) From: Karl Klug
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:51:57 -0800, David M. Lewis
"Where Wizards Stay Up Late" has a pretty good history of the
"internet".  The authors credit Paul Baran and Donald Davies, working
independently, for coming up with the idea of packet switching.
Where Wizards Stay Up Late, Katie Hafner and Matthew Lyon,
Touchstone/Simon & Schuster
It's a fun read!  Steven Levy's "Hackers" (mentioned in a earlier
post) is great...

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