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Topic: New Popper Method (long) (15 msgs / 356 lines)
1) From: Jeff Oien
I was having trouble with both flat and grassy tasting roasts.
The grassy taste came in as the roast size got large with the
colder weather.
Roasting fast didn't always roast out the grassy taste. Right
now I'm of the opinion that if the grassyness isn't given time
to be roasted  out by the end of 1st crack, it can stay with
the bean even through Vienna roast.
Looking at a typical profile:http://www.webdesigns1.com/temp/roast_profile1.gifit heats up REALLY fast and then flattens out before first
crack. If anything it should be ramping up before first crack.
I want to get more of a straight line at an angle type
of profile and give it more time to dry out the beans.
So here is what I came up with. Start out with 20' extension
cord and stir the beans gently and constantly until they move on
their own, about 3:30. Start out with popper tilted quite a
bit, tilt less later, then flat. This is at 58 degrees with
110 gr in a Poppery II. I find that every degree needs a
bean adjustment of about 2 grams.
Turn popper on without any beans in it for 15 seconds. Turn
popper off, put beans in, go 15 seconds with popper still off,
popper on for 5 seconds, off for 15 (stirring all the while)
on for 10, off for 15, on for 15, off for 15, on for 20, off
for 15, on for 40, off for 15, on for 55, off for 15, tilt less,
on for 55, off for 10, popper flat, on for 55 off for 5 remove
extension cord, first crack around here at 6:30 or so, add
soup can chimney which has one lid partially attached at a 45
degree angle to possibly retain more heat.
First crack is usually good and healthy and goes two minutes
at the very most. Second comes in about 1:15 after the end
of first. This brightens the taste profile a little compared
with having 3:00 between 1st and 2nd.
Here is what the beginning of the profile looks like:http://www.webdesigns1.com/temp/roast_profile2.gifUsing a borrowed infrared thermometer it's nearly impossible
to get accurate temps while jumping through all the hoops.
I'm sure it flattens out more near the end, but it's
a much straighter profile than the standard.
So far there is less or no grassyness and the taste is better
but I've only done it for a few roasts. Obviously it's a
ridiculous amount of work. I'd rather use a SC/GG setup
than buy a variac so I just got a convection oven on eBay.
JeffO

2) From: Dennis Parham
just curious... when are you tasting it? have you tasted it over 
several days...Im just curious if you notice any taste shift over those 
days... even roasted to vienna....
Dennis Parham
On Dec 31, 2004, at 1:44 PM, Jeff Oien wrote:
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3) From: Jeff Oien
It doesn't get out of the beans after resting. It stays with
them. I did a fast Vienna roast and that taste was with it for
eight days. Was glad when those were used up.
JeffO
Dennis Parham wrote:
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4) From: Felix Dial
Have you changed the way you cool the beans post roast? I get
noticeably different results when I cool the beans off in the popper
(~3-4 mins to cool) vs dumping them to collander then cooling over a
fan (2 mins or less to cool).
I mentioned before in a post several weeks back how I got grassy and
sour when I roasted to 435F and dumped to collander and fan to cool,
and how the roast to 435F turned out just fine when I left the batch
to cool in the popper. Of course assuming the same amount of rest for
the two batches.
Just realized now that you roast with un-modified poppers, so you
obviously don't cool off the beans in the poppers. Question is still
the same though: have you changed the way you cool the beans post
roast?
Cheers,
   Felix
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:28:20 -0600, Jeff Oien  wrote:
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5) From: Jeff Oien
You know, the last batch of beans I roasted, I only cooled enough
so that they were still warm and there was no grassy smell or
taste at all. The batch before that I cooled more and it smelled
a little off but tastes OK. You may be on to something and I will
cool it on the cooling. Thanks. That's only a part of the equation
but could be a big one.
I did in fact start a new cooling setup a few weeks ago that works
really well and is much more convenient.
How can cooling fast introduce a bad taste? I know Ken Mary has
been through this but it was before my time on this list.
JeffO
Felix Dial wrote:
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6) From: Ken Mary
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In all my controlled cooling experiments over the past year I have never
seen this effect. My roasts are not sour or grassy with any cooling method.
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IMO you do NOT want to devote a portion of the profile to drying the beans.
In my early roasting days, all of my coffee was sour or tangy/bitter because
I believed that the long 12 minute ideal profile was correct. That profile
was easily achieved in the Melitta Aromaroast with which I began roasting.
After I found a fast roasting popper, the sourness disappeared. I theorized
that more water was carried forward into the higher roasting temps and
reacted away the sourness. Later, I modded the Aromaroast for faster initial
heatup (removed the ceramic heater support) and the sourness was gone from
these roasts also. The 12 minute profile is not necessarily wrong, but the
use of such a profile in an air roaster may excessively dry the beans. Now
DRUM roasts are another matter for some unexplained reason (maybe the low
airflow). I have done very long slow heatups, even cold starts taking over
12 minutes to first crack, in my drum roaster and find no sourness.
Of course, my next project will be to air and drum roast dried beans.
--

7) From: Jeff Oien
Ken Mary wrote:
<Snip>
I think we're talking about different things here. I'm talking
about grassy, wet, fermenty type odor and taste that I'm trying
to get rid of. The odor can be even worse than the taste. It's
so pronounced my wife easily noticed it and she doesn't notice
things very easily in coffee.
I have to do more testing, but I was cooling the beans pretty
fast to "room temperature" which was 56 degrees in the basement.
JeffO

8) From: R.N.Kyle
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Jeff I guess I'm getting in on the tail end of this thread. I have cooled
beans many ways, really fast and really slow.
The only grassy I have ever found was in lighter roasted beans that had
little rest time, but it goes away in a day or two.
Just a thought, could your beans be moldy?
RK

9) From: Jeff Oien
R.N.Kyle wrote:
<Snip>
Hi,
I'm sure that's not the case. My beans aren't very old and I even
had a friend roast some of my beans once recently with no problem.
I  appreciate the input though. I'm going in the right direction
anyway.
I know the cooling thing sounds strange because people cool beans
outside in the winter with no problem.
JeffO

10) From: John Blumel
Jeff,
I haven't done much popper roasting -- none since the first month or so 
after I started roasting and bought a Hearthware Precision -- and I'm 
just hazarding a guess but...
It almost sounds as though the beans are not roasting all the way 
through. The only time I've gotten the 'grassy' taste that didn't go 
away was with under-roasted beans. (This happened with an Alpenrost 
that was failing, with the heat cutting out around 1st crack.) Perhaps 
because of load size, or some other factor, either only some of the 
beans are getting fully roasted or all of the beans are not roasting 
all the way through. In other words, even though the roast seems to be 
going all the way to Vienna, maybe the roast is uneven from bean to 
bean or, perhaps, only the outer portion of the bean is roasting 
properly.
Again, this is only a guess attempting to explain the symptoms and, 
even if the guess is correct, I don't have any advice to offer on how 
to correct it.
John Blumel

11) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
On Jan 1, 2005, at 5:22 PM, John Blumel wrote:
<Snip>
That was my thought also.  Roasting too fast so beans get dark on the 
outside but are still a bit raw in the middle.  I don't have any idea 
on how to fix it either, I gave up on the hot air poppers as roasters a 
long time ago.
     Jim Gundlach

12) From: Ed Needham
I'm trying to figure out in my mind how on earth allowing the beans to 
slowly cool on their own could improve an undesirable roast.
Two thoughts.
If the beans were roasted too hot and fast, the outside of the beans could 
be dark, while the inside might still need development (or the development 
of the flavors has gone awry).  Stopping the roast and allowing them to cool 
on their own 'could' further develop the inside of the bean, while not 
further burning the outside.
Another thought...
Maybe the flavors of the particular beans you have chosen to roast are more 
appealing to your taste buds when they are allowed to cool on their own and 
the high note flavors are destroyed or muted.
Other than those two thoughts, I have no idea why slow, unaided cooling 
would appeal to you over a quicker, forced cooling.
I'd think at this time taste comparisons to other roasters using the same 
bean and the opinions of other roasters might help.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

13) From: Ed Needham
I think the fix can be achieved by using a variac or a high wattage dimmer 
(Ebay has them for $20) to control the heater or fan (or both) or by varying 
the amount of beans to achieve a longer roast (usually less beans).  Maybe 
even by tilting the popper to provide a different agitation pattern, and 
allow heated air to flow through the beans faster.  Some have even used 
different lengths of extension cord to provide some electrical resistance 
and cool the roaster a bit.
Popper experts here will likely chime in.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

14) From: DSobcz716
Have you considered installing a switch on your popper heating element?  This is a pretty easy mod.  It allows you to turn off the heating element and keep the fan running.  This can be used to slow down the roast and as a cooling cycle.  
I had the same issue with my Poppery II.  Light roasts were often grassy.  I find that slowing down the profile between 300 and 350 lets them burn off.  I just flip the switch off for 10 seconds 2 or 3 times as it ramps through.  I also use the switch to control the the rest of roast to get the profile I want.
Also look at Tom's I-Roast information.  He has his profile for light roasts there and lots of good info that you can apply.

15) From: Felix Dial
There were posts in January and February of 2004 that discuss slower
cooling. Take a look in the archives athttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/private/homeroastor perform a search at themeyers.org for the following:
"Getting the chaff out"
"more slow cooling, was Re: +Getting the chaff out"
remove the double quotes (")
Respectfully,
  Felix
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 14:48:54 -0500, Ken Mary  wrote:
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