HomeRoast Digest


Topic: frozen greens? (42 msgs / 1099 lines)
1) From: gin
Dave:
I would imagine it depends on where you are, you did not mention that in your post.
Now if were in Scottsdale today I would be surprised but were I in the middle of Oregon
I would not since there be snow.......................
would I roast frozen beans, no, well maybe.
ginny

2) From: gin
OK Dave,
just curious, the trucks are "out" all night with your stuffg no doubt inside.
they should get rooom temp soon.
Let us know,
ginny

3) From: gin
<Snip>
pounds of that wonderful no-longer-available Aged Sulawesi in the refer . .<<
I can relate to that wish.
ginny
great stuff

4) From: gin
Mary:
You be on the right track; a chamber vac sealer would be perfect but most home roasters cannot/will not spend 2K for one.
The moisture is an interesting issue.
I have several items on my desk, all were/have been vac sealed with the typical home sealer.
One of the items is three years old, perfect seal, looks like it did the day I sealed it. The items were rose buds so they had moisture. The second item is homemade dog biscuits, they had moisture when sealed. They have been sealed 6 months, perfect seal.
Coffee greens from a friend, maybe 4 weeks old, the bag is now getting air into it.
I think the way each person seals impacts the end result. Simply pushing a button and watching magic happen does not result in equal bags. I have been told that all vac sealed bags will get air unless they are chamber sealed or
sealed very carefully with the food saver. The issue seems to be that the bags themselves have "holes", weak spots that break down over a short or long period of time.
vintages of coffees, drink it today!
ginny

5) From: gin
yes, it would make it smell bad.
I do not keep my greens that way. Just in a cool, dry place. Played with al=
l of the ideas here but have found that a cool, dry place works best, with =
most things!
ginny

6) From: gin
very good one John!
g

7) From: DEchelbarg
Just opened my shipment fresh off the U.P.S. truck from Sweet Maria's -- out 
of curiosity I stuck a temp probe in my new bag of Brazil Carmo Estate 
Peaberry and discovered they were frozen -- temp probe registered a low 25 degrees.
This just comes with the territory this time of year.  I'm leading them come 
up to room temp before roasting in a few minutes.  
Any problems with greens that have been frozen briefly like this?
Dave E

8) From: Philip Keleshian
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I'm guessing here but I think they will be fine if you use them soon.
 
From what I understand green beans are living dormant seeds.  If they =
died in the frezzing process they may not have as long a shelf life.
 
Phil

9) From: DEchelbarg
Ginny, I am in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, but its been very cold throughout 
the Midwest, kind of surprised that they were frozen, I'll let them come to 
room temp before roasting -- I'd wish they'd hurry, eager to try the Brazil 
Carmo Peaberry.
Dave E

10) From: Ming Wang
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I don't think they're living anymore, not with the processing that goes =
on. They're hulled, washed, dried over and over! They're as likely to =
grow as unroasted peanuts in shell :)

11) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
On Jan 17, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Ming Wang wrote:
<Snip>
unroasted peanuts are exactly what we plant.  We shell them so we can 
spread the seeds out but if you put them in the ground in the shell, 
they will grow.  In fact, the peanut plant puts the seeds in the shells 
in the ground so they will be ready to grow next year.   We dig them up 
to keep them from doing what nature intended.
  Processed green beans don't have a chance though.
     Jim Gundlach
On Jan 17, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Ming Wang wrote:
ArialThey're as
likely to grow as unroasted peanuts in shell :)
unroasted peanuts are exactly what we plant.  We shell them so we can
spread the seeds out but if you put them in the ground in the shell,
they will grow.  In fact, the peanut plant puts the seeds in the
shells in the ground so they will be ready to grow next year.   We dig
them up to keep them from doing what nature intended.
 Processed green beans don't have a chance though.
    Jim Gundlach

12) From: Bob Baker
I have fond memories digging up peanuts in Nebraska on my
grandfather's farm and roasting them in the wood oven in the cellar,
and enjoying them with my very own Pepsi cola (mom wouldn't let me have a
whole one at age 5)
I wonder if they'd grow here in Dallas???
Bob
Jim Wrote:
<Snip>

13) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
Bob,
      I grew them in Oklahoma and in Austin when I lived there.   And, 
in Alabama since I've lived here.
            Jim gundlach
On Jan 17, 2005, at 6:18 PM, Bob Baker wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: Bob Baker
Jim,
I'll need to do some research and try my green thumb out.
Is there a variety to look for?
Do you oven roast them?
Thanks
Bob
<Snip>

15) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
Bob,
       Find an old time feed and seed store that sells seeds in bulk.   
You may have to go outside the city to find one. They will have the 
varieties that grow well around there.  You probably don't want the 
same kind I grow here and I forgot what I grew in Austin 35 to 40 years 
ago.  You can also call your country extension agent.   Yep, they are 
still there, often with cobwebs on the phone but still there.
        Jim
On Jan 17, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Bob Baker wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: Ming Wang
Darn. That really showed me, heh. Well, how about scraped, dried and washed 
peanuts? This comparision is getting worse by the second :)

17) From: Brett Mason
I've actually eaten peanut butter - but never coffee butter....
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:31:27 -0000, Ming Wang  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
      __]_
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

18) From: Jeff Oien
I'm also interested in the original question of whether or not
freezing green beans affects them negatively.
JeffO

19) From: R.N.Kyle
here is a post from Oaxaca Charlie on freezing green coffee beans.
you can also do a search herehttp://www.themeyers.org/just type in freezing green coffee.
RK
--- peter zulkowski  wrote:
  I froze some greens in vac bags, and tried roasting them after
a month. I noticed a clear difference in quality. Less
brightness, the taste was duller. It tasted like past crop
coffee, but it wasn't. The mouth feel was all wrong. It went
stale in only 3 days. I did a couple of roasts and the
difference was consistant. I tried the other vac bag a couple of
months later and got the same result. This turns out to be
controversial, however. Many comercial roasters say freezing has
no effect on greens. In the northern US, or Canada, shippments
of greens in the winter can spend days in unheated trucks and
warehouses. Some of them freeze,(minus 30 for 48 hrs...) and the
cost of having them shipped and stored in heated trucks would
raise the cost enough to hit their profit margins hard. Maybe
mediocre coffee doesn't have many special qualities to lose, and
it's much more noticable with fancy, distinctive beans? Green
coffee doesn't completely spoil when frozen-not like potatoes or
some other more moist produce. I talked to an big importer in
California and asked if they get many requests to keep beans
from freezing when shipping in winter, and he said "not many,
one roaster in Russia insists his shipments don't freeze, and a
couple of micro roasters in the northern tier states". I always
wait for a period of nice weather when I'm pretty sure my orders
won't freeze before ordering in winter. It's only 1 1/2 days on
a truck from San Fransisco to here, and sacks of greens don't
freeze solid really fast, anyways. I think more experements
should be done but, personally, I'm not freezing any more
greens.
  Charlie

20) From: John Blumel
On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:14pm, Jeff Oien wrote:
<Snip>
Someone on the list (Oaxaca Charlie, perhaps?) did an experiment a long 
while back of freezing bean in a freezer, then roasting them. As I 
recall, the results were reported to be very much below the quality of 
the same beans unfrozen.
Of course, temperatures in a freezer may be very much below the 
temperatures that beans might experience in transit and I don't know 
how long they were left in the freezer. I think it might take a long 
time to freeze beans all the way through while they were sitting in a 
truck, especially if temperatures were not in the neighborhood of 0F 
and/or if the beans were not at the edge of the truck. So, they might 
only freeze slightly and, although they might not be at their best, 
they might be OK. There's little to lose by roasting them and seeing 
how they are.
John Blumel

21) From: Oaxaca Charlie
  I put some greens in my deep freezer-minus 30 degrees. That
definately lowered their quality. A light freeze might not be as
bad...?
  Charlie
--- "R.N.Kyle"  wrote:
<Snip>
=====
Brick Oven Roasting in British Columbia 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com

22) From: Steve Wall
Strangely enough, a competitor of Tom's intentionally
vacuum packs and freezes their greens to -40 degrees
F, claiming it helps preserve their flavor throughout
the year.
Steve Wall
On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:37 PM, R.N.Kyle wrote:
<Snip>

23) From: Deward Hastings
Fortunately it's not all that easy to "freeze" green beans . . . it
certainly won't happen at only a few degrees below the freezing point of
pure water.  That's because the sugars and other dissolved solids act =
like
anti-freeze . . . just as they do in the tissue of trees which manage to
survive freezing temperatures without freezing every winter.  I wouldn't
worry too much about temperatures in the high 20s (F).
There's no reference to the effect of freezing on green beans in the =
Illy
Espresso book or in "All About Coffee" (at least it's not indexed in
either), but someone somewhere has probably done a thesis on it.  If you =
get
"normal" roast times and normal sounding cracks then the beans probably
didn't "freeze" and everything else should come out "normal" too.
Of course there is some temperature below which the water in the beans
*will* freeze (whatever that temperature is) . . . you might be able to
rescue such beans with a modified roast profile.  That's an experiment =
that
I'll leave for someone else, though . . . .
Deward

24) From: Tom Ulmer
I think they'd be no more processed than passing through a digestive
system...
admin] On Behalf Of Ming Wang
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:44 PM
I don't think they're living anymore, not with the processing that goes on.
They're hulled, washed, dried over and over! They're as likely to grow as
unroasted peanuts in shell :)

25) From: Bob Baker
Thanks Jim,
That's what I like about this list of "experts"!!!
I'll get a hold of the agent, they're probably quiet this time of year  
like the
lonely Maytag repair man...
Bob
  Pecan Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
My experience is that freezing temperature is not good for green 
coffee, but George Howell (Coffee Connection, now Terroir Coffee) is 
actually deep freezing green coffee for 1+ years and doing roasting 
tests ... his hope is to save "vintages" of coffee. I don't think the 
results will be good but I always respect an experiment!
Tom
-- 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george

27) From: Dennis Parham
hmm.... I would think that freezing would destroy the cellular membrane 
of the organic matter.... as it turns to ice  I would be curious...( 
maybe the natural sodium in the bean would prevent the crystallization 
from taking place?? Maybe is it was only taken down right above its 
freezing point and kept stable??? hmmm.... I dont freeze my beans... 
they dont last long enough for me to need to freeze.. hence.. another 
order coming ..lol
Dennis
On Jan 18, 2005, at 11:07 AM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>

28) From: John Blumel
On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:07pm, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
If he's flash freezing it and storing it at -70F, it might work. But 
the costs of this would seem to not be worth the results. Sounds like a 
rather misguided notion since there's always a "vintage" from 
somewhere. I imagine his success will hinge more on marketing than on 
the quality of the "preserved" coffee.
John Blumel

29) From: Oaxaca Charlie
--- Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee 
wrote:
<Snip>
 Mike MkKoffee's vac sealing Konas for years and blind cupping
seams like a more usefull way to save "vintages".Good luck to
George.
  Charlie
=====
Brick Oven Roasting in British Columbia 
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

30) From: Deward Hastings
Charlie:
<Snip>
seams like a more usefull way to save "vintages".
I would expect storage of those vac sealed beans at slightly above =
freezing
temperature to prolong their life even further.  Long term storage below
freezing, however, even if not cold enough to "freeze" the beans, would
eventually result in desiccation (freezer burn) . . . almost certainly =
not a
good thing.  Like most things the more you look at it the more =
complicated
it becomes . . . and pointless too, with fresh crop coming in somewhere =
in
the world every few months.  Maybe it would be nice to have a few dozen
pounds of that wonderful no-longer-available Aged Sulawesi in the refer =
. .
. maybe just as nice to move on to the next wonderful thing . . .
Deward

31) From:
Freezing green coffee might not affect the oils/fats/etc as much as the
water entrained in the seed.  I think the %moisture in greens is typically
10-12%?
I believe that freezing for extended periods of time would result in greens
becoming "freezer burned."  I think we've all experienced foods in our
freezers that have lost their flavor, texture, and water/moisture.  Perhaps
the same would happen to green coffee if frozen under typical household
freezer conditions.  Also, the ukky freezer odor would probably seep into
the frozen greens also.
If, however, the greens were vacuum sealed, or better yet, sealed under
pressure of an inert gas prior to freezing, perhaps the freezer life of the
green might be extended, without drastic loss of moisture and whatever
components are vulnerable to freezing out at low temperatures.  And, of
course, the freezing chamber should have no other foods/items/etc other than
green coffee and no odors.
I am very interested in learning of the results of Mr. Howell's experiments
and efforts at preserving vintages of coffees.  All I have left of a few of
the most awesome coffees (from Tom's offerings, of course) are my notes and
memories of that coffee, as the raw material that I saved will certainly not
produce the same cup it did when fresh.  (btw, coffee was Ethiopian Harrar
from about 5-6 yrs ago.  Intense floral top notes that were incredible,
along w/ the other flavors such as blueberry, slightest hint of tobacco, and
a few others that escape my memory right now.)
Bottom line is...freezing greens for extended periods of time, under
household freezer conditions would likely result in freezer burned, odd
tasting coffee, once roasted/brewed.  It remains to be seen if coffee
vintage preservation experiments "work."  Looking forward to the results.
--Mary

32) From: Brett Mason
The potential variations are mind boggling.....
If only someone had evaluated the relative merits of freezing coffee
inside a Kopi Luwak, both where the beans ARE frozen, and where the
civet is frozen, but the beans remain unfrozen.
This would be a more definitive study.  I wonder if the FDA is
involved in the perpetuation of this discourse...
I guess I'll just roast mine, brew and consume.  I am rather short sighted...
Brett
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:32:29 -0800, MYR
 wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
      __]_
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

33) From: Rick.Farris
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
Doesn't it make the coffee smell funny?  I know I used to keep the =
refer in
my cigar humidor, and I sure got some funny looks when people sniffed =
my
cigars...
-- Rick
----
1/18/2005 1:48:20 PM
Mostly Cloudy in San Diego, CA
76F (24C)  -  36% RH 
Wind From NW at 7 mph (13:40:20)
ICBM: N 32 43' 05" W 117 10' 02"
Now Playing: DEEP PURPLE -  Smoke On The Water - California Jamming - =
1974
<Snip>
refer .
.<<
<Snip>
************************************************************************=
**
The information transmitted herewith is sensitive information intended =
only
for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the =
reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified =
that
any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or =
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use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is
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please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.

34) From: John Blumel
On Jan 18, 2005, at 4:52pm, Rick.Farris wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, but it throws off the dogs.
John Blumel

35) From: Les
Brett,
I think you need some civets as pets.  You seem to be enamoured with
Kopi Luwak! :>)))  Have you ever tried the stuff?  I wasn't that
impressed when I had a cup of the genuine stuff before all the fraud
began.
Les
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:35:45 -0800, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

36) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
I'd agree with Les,   I thought it had a unique but not necessarily 
desirable taste.   However, one of my kids thought it was one of the 
best coffees I'd ever brewed.
      Jim Gundlach
On Jan 18, 2005, at 4:50 PM, Les wrote:
<Snip>

37) From: DEchelbarg
Fun little post I started when I worried about the green beans I had just 
gotten from Tom.  I take it they may not actually have frozen, given the sugars 
in the beans etc., even though the temp probe read 25 in the midst of them.  It 
was a fairly big order and so far I've roasted the Brazil Poco Fundo and the 
Brazil Carmo Estate Peaberry.  After a 12 hour rest, the Poco Fundo is truly 
stunning.  The Carmo is very good, but am tasting a bit of green in it.  Both 
roasts were Full City.  Perhaps the Carmo needs a longer rest, I'll know more 
in the morning.  The Carmo roast was a bit bizarre.  It was five below here and 
I was in no mood to spend more time roasting in the garage (already had done 
a batch of both Monkey and Donkey), so I hooked up the I-roast in the kitchen. 
 On the Carmo, I had not secured the top which was vented out the window and 
so it was loose resulting in a slower profile and some chaff in the kitchen.  
Ended up holding the top together trying to listen for cracks trying not to 
burn my hands -- a wild roast, but looked good and relatively sure it was fine, 
but the bean deserves a better roast, so we'll see.
So far, the beans taste great -- hoping they weren't frozen.  That's just the 
nature of the game for me since the beans are going to be sitting in a truck 
over the weekend somewhere.
Anyway fascinating thread, from Civets, to peanuts, to deep freezing beans -- 
lots of twists and turns.  I guess you never know how or where a thread will 
end up.
Dave E

38) From: AlChemist John
Since this has kind of moved to aged coffees, I have two questions.
There was an aged Sumatra Lintong a couple of years ago.  It was very 
aggressive and I found the "musty, earthy" factor too much.  I see there is 
still an Aged Lintong.
1)       Is it the same one or a "new" crop.  To anyone how has had "both" 
do they taste the same or different.  Tom, I assume you know, and 
considered writing directly but figured it was good topic conversation.
2)      Are aged coffees aged in parchment or as finished greens?  If as 
greens, is there any way to approximate it at home.  I know you can't just 
let them get old, but would 5-10 lbs in burlap, at a particular temperature 
and humidity get you anywhere (in a positive direction)?
Sometime around 13:31 1/18/2005, gin typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

39) From: DEchelbarg
Just a word on my frozen 25 degree beans today: The Brazil Carmo is truly 
stunning -- came on nicely after a bit more rest 24 hours plus, the Poco is all 
that it was yesterday, also stunning -- never had a coffee quite like this -- 
great fun.  So, I would say that my beans described the UPS cold -- although 
how good might they have been? .  . .  .  There is no end to this geek stuff.
Smiling in the U.P. today with twin cups of Brazil. 
Dave E 

40) From: Cheryl Alexander
This has probably been addressed before----my apologies---but is it okay to vac-pak and freeze greens?
Cheryl
so many pens...so little time...http://www.gcwr.org/Homeroast mailing list
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41) From: Joseph Robertson
Cheryl,
Boy has it be discussed here. It's a prefered method by many on this
list. More testing of this has been done here among SM's home roasters
than anywhere else I know of.
JoeR
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Cheryl Alexander  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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42) From: Cheryl Alexander
Joe, aha! That's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure that freezing wouldn't "bruise" the beans! I just received the largest order I've ever done, and I don't want anything to get baggy. Thank you for your reply.
Cheryl
so many pens...so little time...http://www.gcwr.org/----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph Robertson 
To: homeroast
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:32:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Frozen greens?
Cheryl,
Boy has it be discussed here. It's a prefered method by many on this
list. More testing of this has been done here among SM's home roasters
than anywhere else I know of.
JoeR
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Cheryl Alexander  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20Homeroast mailing list">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20Homeroast mailing list
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