HomeRoast Digest


Topic: New Improved +$6.90 bean cooler (28 msgs / 789 lines)
1) From: jeremy
There are those of you that have a heavy investment in their cooling
apparatus. Some with actual cost and some with their design labors. 
Warning! Warning! Warning! - if you are one of those - DO NOT READ
FURTHER!!!
You are WAY too invested in your own devices and something as simple as
this cannot POSSIBLY work.
But for the rest of us ....
Cooling beans is NOT brain surgery but a LOT of people seem to
misunderstand the process.
Air is an insulator NOT a conductor. Blowing it across an object(beans),
really does a lousy job of grabbing heat way from the object. Colanders
in fact are pretty bad because you are cooling the outside of the batch
quickly but still letting the inside roast away.
A MUCH better approach is to place the hot object into contact with a
conductive material with as much thermal mass as possible (think of
falling into 33F/0C degree water rather than standing in 33F/0C degree
air).
Hence the 'fan' approach to cooling is REALLY not the best approach at
all.
A MUCH more effective cooler would be a couple heavy aluminum half sheet
baking pans (think Costco or Sam's). Simply dump the newly roasted beans
onto the first pan for 30-60 seconds and then dump them from there onto
the second pan. The heat from the beans will be VERY quickly given off
by direct contact with the heavy metal backing sheet and the roasting
process will be arrested very quickly indeed.http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001MS8BK/102-6261498-5942561
Been using this process for many years and most professional cooks use
this method for quick
Cooling of confection and products.
The CPU of the computer you are now using is cooled this way also. There
is a heavy aluminum heat sink that is grabbing heat away from the CPU
and throwing it into the air. Oh yes, there are fans in there too. But
that's because you leave your computer on continuously (unlike cooling
beans which only takes a few minutes).  The fans are only there because
the heat sink cannot be made big enough and still fit in the case and at
a certain point, fans are cheaper to carry away the residual heat than
heavy aluminum heat sinks are. 
Water cooled engines are better at removing heat than air cooled ones.
We could go on and on. Its greater thermal mass that counts, not
strainers and colanders with all their holes and limited mass. Its just
the simple laws of thermodynamics.
Now, having said all that, it is my humble opinion, that much like fine
scotch whisky (without the 'e') is a blend of the various nuances of
several Inslay malts as well as others, Coffee benefits from being a
BLEND of several different roasts of the same beans (or others as well).
I often mix a full city with a good minute past second crack roast of
the very same beans in a double batch and therefore get the high notes
of the full city with all the deep chocolaty and nutty/earthy taste of
the French roast.
 
Shall I go on ?

2) From: miKe mcKoffee
With the caveat that for even better cooling use copper not aluminum. (the 
most efficient cpu coolers are copper not aluminum;-)
MM

3) From: Brett Mason
What sized pans are you using?
What sized roast are you cooling this way?
My skillet and my drum do about 2-3lb per laod - do you envision this
method working with this sized load?
Thanks,
Brett
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:53:30 -0600, jeremy  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
      __]_
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

4) From: Pecan Jim Gundlach
On Mar 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, jeremy wrote:
<Snip>
I have a 22" x 24" x .5" steel slab for the griddle on my kitchen 
range.   I spread the hot beans on it and stir them around a little and 
they are cool in less than 2 minutes.  Obviously I don't roast when I'm 
cooking on the griddle.
    Jim Gundlach
"The espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder, not the other way 
around."

5) From: Dennis Parham
Jeremy.. hehe I have been using this for about 2 years.. Ive posted my  
site a few times...lol it DOES work I attest! I roast about 4oz to  
7oz.(1 cup) in modded original poppery and 1 1/2 - 2 cups in volume  
with my Turbo Crazy.. I have a little walmart turbo fan that sits on  
side and sometimes I pick it up and shake pan... here is my site  
again.. These are last years old pics... hehehttp://homepage.mac.com/dparham_is/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/
2004-08-23%2020.49.42%20-0700/Image-E665EC7CF57F11D8.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/dparham_is/PhotoAlbum14.htmlDennis Parham
On Mar 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, jeremy wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: Jared Andersson
Wow Dennis a fan and a pan too cool your beans.  It isn't like you to
overdo things.  Jared
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:26:03 -0600, Dennis Parham  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: petzul
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Not to keep beating a dead horse , but I think air cooling is just fine.
For several months now I have been using a hand held hair drier. One of 
those Pro 1800 watt jobs with the cool air only option. I leave the 
beans mixing in my Turbo Beast and point the hair drier at them. Just 
have to be careful not to blow the beans out of the roaster. Have to be 
careful not to cool them too quickly, usually try to get down to 160 F 
in about 2 - 3 minutes.
This cost me $3.00 in a thrift store.
Well, I have not figured a way to catch the chaff yet, nor have I even 
thought about it.
Somehow I love to see the cloud of chaff block out the sun ;-)
Well, not really, but there is a LOT of it, and eventually the wind 
takes it all over the neighborhood.
Or else I have to just vacuum it up :-(
PeterZ
Adding his 1.5 cents from here in LHC.
Linux-by-choice wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: jeremy
"With the caveat that for even better cooling use copper not aluminum.
(the most efficient cpu coolers are copper not aluminum;-) MM"
Oh YEAH Baby! 
Show me the website that has $6.90 Heavy COPPER half size backing sheets
and I'll be there in a heartbeat! :-)
And why stop there ? 
Silver is a better conductor than Copper.
And Gold is better than either. 
And then there are superconductors and all that Kelvin talk ... :-)
Shall I go on ? LOL

9) From: jeremy
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Pop Science - I love it.   Cooling fins only work if there is a seal
between the heating object and the fin - silicone grease.  Hey a use for
oily beans!
The newest cpu has a coupler for "an air hose" built onto it.  Those
physics freaks in Silicone valley never pay attention.
The fastest thermal exchange seems to be from a ventilated metal tray
with air blown up through it and a stirring rod   The
metal tray is cold -  and it is ventilated so the air can move through
the beans as they are stirred. 
But for really fast cooling you might want to try a shot from a CO2 fire
extinguisher!
Well, truth be told, silicone grease is an insulator too. Its the Zinc
Oxide or other metallic particles that is IN the grease that acts to
fill in the surface imperfections in the metal to metal contact of the
two, thus increasing conductivity. Tthe silicone just makes it easy to
disassemble and prevents it from caking up and flaking away. If you
could somehow make them perfectly flat, parallel planes with no surface
imperfections, you would not need the grease at all and it would
actually be a hinderance.
 
If the beans on the tray somehow continued to generate heat like a CPU
does, then a fan would be helpful. But they don't.
The fastest method will ALWAYS be a solid mass with the most surface
contact. Vented fins attached to a SOLID conductive sheet in contact
with the heat source is a common method (but never a ventilated
sheet/tray making the contact). Theoretically, if there was a conductive
liquid poured over the beans in the pan thus conductively connecting the
beans more fully to the pan, THAT would be superior, but I haven't yet
fiured out what THAT liquid would be :-) Your CO2 suggestion kinda
touches on it though. The CO2 actually being in a point between a
liquid/solid and a vapor (evaportion/sublimation)
 
In cooling, fans are just used for the economy of not having to use as
much expensive thermal mass (conductive metal usually) to keep heat
levels below a certain threshold.
 
The end product is that it without using a thermal mass, it would take a
REALLY big, fast and expensive fan to sink the same amount of heat in
the same amount of time as an inexpensive solid conducting mass like
aluminum. And then you'd have to be able to handle the chaff blowing all
over the place too :-)
 
Shall I go on ?

10) From: Philip Keleshian
This is all well and good but the problem is getting the beans into =
contact with the metal sheet.  My guess is that most of the heat passes =
from the beans into the sheet via a fluid - air. The beans do not have a =
flat surface to contact the sheet.
Phil

11) From: Ed Needham
Let me see...on a hot day, do I want to be cooled with a fan or to be placed 
between two metal sheets...
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

12) From: Charles Haynes
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:53:30 -0600, jeremy  wrote:
<Snip>
I roast in the oven, usually 1-2 lbs at a time, on half-sheet pans. I
used to cool using exactly the method you describe, using three
half-sheet pans in rotation. I use a box fan and drum sieve now. Cost
me about $30 total, but I can use both of them for other things and I
can cool 2lbs of beans to room temperature in < 5 min.
...
<Snip>
I'm not sure how much credence I should give to someone who pointedly
corrects the spelling of whisky but then immediately misspells
"Islay."
So - I've tried both methods, I prefer a fan, and I like my Islays
cask strength and unblended.
Chacun a son gout.
-- Charles

13) From: David B. Westebbe
I used to sometimes dump out my roast onto a marble counter.  It worked
pretty well, at indoor ambient temps.
There's merit to the heat sink technique, but moving air seems to
capture enough heat, at a good enough rate, so that it works very well.
I vote for a huge slab of copper with refrigerated air blowing up
through tiny holes, like on an air-hockey table.  That seem to be the
best of both worlds.
<Snip>

14) From: Brett Mason
With PID control....
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:16:16 -0500, David B. Westebbe
 wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
      __]_
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

15) From: Jared Andersson
I vote we PID Brett's email comments.  Jared 
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:48:33 -0800, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: Tom Ulmer
Seconded...

17) From: Ben Treichel
David B. Westebbe wrote:
<Snip>
Hey, if you epoxy the pucks, you could play espresso hockey!

18) From: Wandering Curmudgeon
jeremy wrote:
<Snip>
But you clearly understood my point.  The application of silicone grease 
is a requirement.    You may go on, but pardon me if I seem to have lost 
interest.   You seem more bent on your exhibition of  pop science than 
an objective answer to the question posed.
John - truly in the curmudgeon mode now!

19) From: jeremy
Of course, you are indeed correct (smacks forehead) You got me! - too
much Islay that night ....  
But you'd have to know me a little better to know that I NEVER deserve
much credence. :-)
To all you Fan Cooler Fans out there, a fan is perfectly fine, I was
really just talking to someone that might be contemplating an "upgrade"
to a fan. Its just unnecessary IMHO, you can do as well with what most
kitchens already have (aluminum sheet pans), without buying a special
fan, hauling it out, plugging it in, listing to all its noise and
chasing the chaff.
And I really doubt that the difference between cooling in 30 seconds vs
a minute or two really makes any difference anyway. Its so far off the
roasting temp after 30 seconds using either method that it hardly
matters - IMHO of course.
================
I'm not sure how much credence I should give to someone who pointedly
corrects the spelling of whisky but then immediately misspells "Islay."
So - I've tried both methods, I prefer a fan, and I like my Islays cask
strength and unblended.
Chacun a son gout.
-- Charles

20) From: Justin Marquez
"One man's fish is another man's poisson."
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.com Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:37:15 -0800, Charles Haynes
 wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: owen cox
Picking up on PeterZ's dead horse and chaff all over the neighborhood:
pouring the beans between two colanders in the air from a small clip
on fan cools my 600gm roasts in about 2 minutes and makes the chaff
available to the neighborhood instead of my brew.
owen 
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:36:03 -0700, petzul  wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: John Blumel
On Mar 29, 2005, at 1:21pm, owen cox wrote:
<Snip>
I wouldn't want to have to clean up that mess.
John Blumel

23) From: Brett Mason
I sweep the chaff over to my compost pile...  Other pieces landing i
the grass just make the distribution that much quicker...
Brett
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:39:22 -0500, John Blumel
 wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
      __]_
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

24) From: David Johnson
I thought he meant the horse.
<Snip>

25) From: John Blumel
On Mar 29, 2005, at 2:05pm, Brett Mason wrote:
<Snip>
What do you do with the pieces of the dead horse that are scattered 
about.
John Blumel

26) From: Bob
feeds the [civet] cats
Bob - bee'less in Parker

27) From: Brett Mason
We just keep kicking the dead horse... Has worked for most email
threads on the list so far...
Brett
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:59:33 -0500, John Blumel
 wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
      __]_
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!

28) From: Brett Mason
OK, I like Bob's answer better - we use the horse to feed the cats ...
...
...
I don't know why she swallowed the fly - perhaps she'll die.
Ah, campfire songs... and a cup o Joe!
Brett
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:52:30 -0700, Bob  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
      __]_
   _(( )_  Please don't spill the coffee!


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