HomeRoast Digest


Topic: My new homemade batch roaster (61 msgs / 1421 lines)
1) From: Wandering Curmudgeon
Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>
Um - I was thinking Dan, You already have a manufacturing facility, a 
business license and a distribution chain - have you given serious 
thought to a new product line :O)

2) From: Wandering Curmudgeon
Jason! Nice job. And great in-process pictures. It makes it clear on how 
it is assembled. A sheet metal shop wouldn't do me any good .. I still 
can only identify stainless steel 2 out of 3 tries; and bending it? HA! 
But if you want it computerized I'm your guy!
Again - great job. Is Dan charging royalties on his design :O)
John - loving life in the slow lane.
Jason Molinari wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: Jason Molinari
After seeing Dan's roaster, i decided to build one
myself. I couldn't have done it without Dan's help, he
helped me with everything, materials, design,
sourcing...thanks Dan!
Anyhow, it is done now (about 2 weeks of work)...and
roasted my first batch last night. Seems to be working
great.
Here are the pics:http://home.comcast.net/~jasonmolinari/Drum_Roaster.htmemail any questions (or how to fix the hyperlinks in
IE!).
jason

4) From: petzul
Wow!
Great job Jason.
Nice clear pics, and great description.
I know you SAY it was tough, but you made it look so easy and it came 
out dandy!
Thank you so much for sharing this.
Can you tell us what you are using for a motor? and how do you control 
the temperature?
Thanks,
PeterZ
Jason Molinari wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Jason Molinari
The motor is from surplus center, found a 30RPM gear
motor for $8. The temp is controlled by a variac that
controls voltage to the wire.
I thikn if i had had the proper tools (a table saw to
cut the board, and a hole saw for the bushing hole) it
would have been about 40% easier!
jason
--- petzul  wrote:
<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

6) From: Jason Brooks
Jason,
    Sa-weet!  I'll be over for some shots of Brazil later...8-)
Jason
<Snip>

7) From: Gene Smith
<Snip>
Wow, Jason...thanks for the pictorial how-to.  It makes it ever so much 
easier for me to understand each step.  Impressive!
Gene Smith
jealous, in Houston

8) From: Rob Stewart
Good one Jason.......
I have run so many drum roaster designs through my head and then glad I 
didn't get any parts due to I changed the plan.   It will take some time 
  due to other priorities and procrastination but I have now picked up 
the appropriate bushings and bodies and settled into a vague Probate/JB 
style to cobble together. At my rate .... maybe in the Fall if I stay on 
track.
Rob
Jason Molinari wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005

9) From: DJ Garcia
Verrry nice, Jason! You're going to need an improved version of the
roasting DB to go with that B^).
DJ

10) From: Jason Molinari
stick to it, i've only used it once and it is worth it
already!
--- Rob Stewart  wrote:
<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://home.comcast.net/~jasonmolinari/Drum_Roaster.htm<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

11) From: Jason Molinari
thanks, i'm waitin':)
jason
--- DJ Garcia  wrote:
<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://home.comcast.net/~jasonmolinari/Drum_Roaster.htm<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

12) From: Jason Molinari
<Snip>
Rob, i'd love to see your drum design, i had a hell of
a time figuring my half assed kludge job out.
jason
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

13) From: Dan Bollinger
Nice work, Jason!  Using backerboard is a cost-effective way to eliminate
paying a sheet metal shop.  Yours cost a lot less than mine, and I have a
home shop! To me, sample roasters are a perfect solution for home roasting.
They roast a pound, you can profile, and its easy to monitor the roast by
sight, smell and sound.  I think more people will be building these.  Dan
<Snip>
unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>

14) From: Jason Molinari
<Snip>
I must say, watching hte roast progress witha  simple
flashlight was really nice.
jason
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

15) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
roasting.
<Snip>
Yes I have.  And I also gave consideration for the cost of liability
insurance and UL approval.  ;)  Dan

16) From: Michael Dhabolt
Jason
Have you considered doing the hardware that would be difficult for the
normal home geek type roasting enthusiast to accomplish on their own? 
Something like producing the drum, support, drive assembly etc.. 
Seems like if a person were to purchase specific parts and accomplish
the purchase of remaining parts and the construction of the roaster
themselves it would shield you from the liability and UL issues.  Just
thinking.  A lot of folks have the inclination and are willing to
exert the time and effort, but just don't have the where withall to do
some of the pieces themselves.
Mike (just plain)
On Apr 8, 2005 8:04 PM, Dan Bollinger  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Jason Molinari
all i can say is "HECK no":) The last thing i want to
do is attempt to make another kludge drum like i put
together. It was a gigantic pain in the a**!
Additionally i don't even have close to enough
time....
jason
--- Michael Dhabolt  wrote:
<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

18) From: John Blumel
On Apr 8, 2005, at 11:04pm, Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>
Maybe you should look into whether selling it as a 'kit' would reduce 
liability and eliminate the need for UL approval.
John Blumel

19) From: miKe mcKoffee
Great job! Thanks for the post & pic's. 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

20) From: John Blumel
On Apr 8, 2005, at 11:21pm, Jason Molinari wrote:
<Snip>
Hmmm, looks like someone already thought of that.
John Blumel

21) From: Jerry Procopio
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Well done!  Great job & great pictures.  I hope you will keep us posted 
as you gain experience with it.
Jerry
Jason Molinari wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: AlChemist John
Great Jason - It is really nice to see someone else using hardibacker!  So 
easy and useful.
Dan helped me with my basics also (Thank you Dan!)  Have either of you 
found the desire to include a small fan for air circulation?
Sometime around 13:40 4/8/2005, Jason Molinari typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

23) From: AlChemist John
For anyone else who decides to use hardibacker, make sure you get a 
disposable (ie cheap) blade for your saw for it - it just kills them!
Sometime around 13:58 4/8/2005, Jason Molinari typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

24) From: AlChemist John
I really wonder if there is a way to do a kit without either of those.  It 
would be the best of both worlds.  Does anyone know if  doing a kit reduces 
liability and or the need for UL listing.  I think it has to eliminate UL 
listing - I don't know about liability.
Sometime around 20:04 4/8/2005, Dan Bollinger typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

25) From: Dennis Parham
GREAT PICS Jason!!  question.. since that SS mesh is so fine, how did 
you deal with chaff??  I didnt see any post on that and was curious..
Dennis
On Apr 8, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Jason Molinari wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
John,  Originally, my roaster had a 1.5 inch vent on top. I thought it =
would be useful for removing smoke (funny thing was, the smoke insisted =
on coming out the 'snout').  I also thought it might be useful to use a =
fan to remove smoke, too.  When I changed from fiberglass insulation to =
ceramic I eliminated the vent.  So, to answer your question, no, I =
haven't desired a fan.  Once in a great while, to either cool the roast, =
or dump some smoke off Kenyans, I tip the roaster a little and fresh air =
rushes in the gap on the back, and flushes smoke out the snout. Simple, =
but effective. 
I can manually roast, or use a PID with profile ramp.  Turning on a fan =
would screw up the PID settings.  
Dan
  Great Jason - It is really nice to see someone else using hardibacker! =
 So easy and useful.
  Dan helped me with my basics also (Thank you Dan!)  Have either of you =
found the desire to include a small fan for air circulation?
  Sometime around 13:40 4/8/2005, Jason Molinari typed:
    After seeing Dan's roaster, i decided to build one
    myself. I couldn't have done it without Dan's help, he
    helped me with everything, materials, design,
    sourcing...thanks Dan!
    Anyhow, it is done now (about 2 weeks of work)...and
    roasted my first batch last night. Seems to be working
    great.
    Here are the pics:
   http://home.comcast.net/~jasonmolinari/Drum_Roaster.htm    email any questions (or how to fix the hyperlinks in
    IE!).
    jason--  
  John Nanci 
  AlChemist at large
  Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalt
 http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/">http://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/ http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

27) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
John, The other aspect of selling kits is that you spend a LOT of time =
on the phone and email helping people build their machines. That's not =
something I'd look forward to.  Another problem is that if someone built =
the machine wrong, or messed it up in some way, it would be ME, not =
them, that would get the bad reputation. When you sell a kit you are =
also giving away quality control. 
fyi:  My factory does decorative plastic molding. We have no sheet metal =
equipment, so everything would have to be jobbed out.  Just so you know, =
I once tried to interest a manufacturer of consumer, sheet metal =
constructed, electric smokers, but they didn't bite.   Dan
  I really wonder if there is a way to do a kit without either of those. =
 It would be the best of both worlds.  Does anyone know if  doing a kit =
reduces liability and or the need for UL listing.  I think it has to =
eliminate UL listing - I don't know about liability.
  Sometime around 20:04 4/8/2005, Dan Bollinger typed:
    > Dan Bollinger wrote:
    >
    > >Nice work, Jason!  Using backerboard is a cost-effective way to =
eliminate
    > >paying a sheet metal shop.  Yours cost a lot less than mine, and =
I have a
    > >home shop! To me, sample roasters are a perfect solution for home
    roasting.
    > >They roast a pound, you can profile, and its easy to monitor the =
roast by
    > >sight, smell and sound.  I think more people will be building =
these.  Dan
    > >
    > >
    > Um - I was thinking Dan, You already have a manufacturing =
facility, a
    > business license and a distribution chain - have you given serious
    > thought to a new product line :O)
    Yes I have.  And I also gave consideration for the cost of liability
    insurance and UL approval.  ;)  Dan--  
  John Nanci 
  AlChemist at large
  Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalt
 http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/">http://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/ http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

28) From: Tom Ulmer
Well done Jason. 
<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://home.comcast.net/~jasonmolinari/Drum_Roaster.htm<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the
sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

29) From: Jason Molinari
yeah, that is an understatement! I make the single 4"
hole i went through 3 jigsaw blades.
--- AlChemist John  wrote:
<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

30) From: Jason Molinari
on the first batch it seems that a lot somehow still
fell through (magic?!!?) but some came out with the
beans and blew all over when i cooled the beans on a
box fan.
jason
--- Dennis Parham  wrote:
<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://home.comcast.net/~jasonmolinari/Drum_Roaster.htm<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

31) From: Jason Molinari
Hey Dan, given that i can't leave well enough alone,
i'll probably be asking you questions about the PID
system:)
jason
--- Dan Bollinger  wrote:
<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://home.comcast.net/~jasonmolinari/Drum_Roaster.htm<Snip>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
                                              -John Galt

32) From: Dan Bollinger
LOL!  Spoken like a true homeroaster/tinkerer!  :)
<Snip>
sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
<Snip>
unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

33) From: AlChemist John
Actually, I was meaning the other way.  To distribute heat inside the 
chamber, not unlike a convection oven.  And as for the PID, used to 
distribute the heat, wouldn't it still work?
Sometime around 08:26 4/9/2005, Dan Bollinger typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

34) From: AlChemist John
Since you are giving away control and QC, are you also giving up liability?
Sometime around 08:30 4/9/2005, Dan Bollinger typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

35) From: AlChemist John
I used a drill to put a ring of holes in, then knocked it out.  The edge of 
the hole I cleaned up with a course file.  OTOH, a really good jigsaw blade 
will last quite a bit longer if you take it very slow.
Sometime around 10:01 4/9/2005, Jason Molinari typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

36) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
John, I see.  Actually, the drum vanes act as fan impellers to move air =
around inside.   Dan
  Actually, I was meaning the other way.  To distribute heat inside the =
chamber, not unlike a convection oven.  And as for the PID, used to =
distribute the heat, wouldn't it still work?

37) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
No.  The 'design' is still yours and you are still liable for 'design =
errors of omission.'  Plus, proving that the customer failed to assemble =
correctly falls to you.  And, it is unlikely that a person's insurance =
company is going to sue their client for restitution!

38) From: AlChemist John
Geesh, I hate how litigious our country has become.  Really just kills this 
kind of idea.  :-(
Sometime around 08:24 4/10/2005, Dan Bollinger typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

39) From: John Blumel
On Apr 12, 2005, at 9:08am, AlChemist John wrote:
<Snip>
Of course, if manufacturers didn't have product liability 
responsibility, the number of deaths and injuries due to manufacturer 
negligence would be substantially higher than it is. Laws exist for a 
purpose -- in this case to protect the public from the unscrupulous and 
the incompetent -- and, when people suffer loss or injury due to 
negligence, they have a right to compensation. Without some motivation 
to make sure they don't cause injury, many manufacturers' only interest 
would be in maximizing their profits with little or no regard for the 
consequences.
The "litigiousness" of our country is greatly over-exaggerated, as is 
the cost of such litigation to businesses and the economy in general. 
So called "tort reform" is just an attempt by business and insurance 
interests to make the costs of negligence predictable so that 
increasing the safety of a product or quality of a service becomes just 
another cost benefit analysis -- if the cost of making it safer or 
doing it right is more than the cost associated with the expected 
injuries and deaths, they aren't going to bother.
This is why caps on damage awards are dangerous for the public and the 
economy at large. The only way to get many businesses to care about 
consumer safety is to make it an unpredictable cost if they don't. If 
killing or injuring people might possibly be so expensive that it could 
put you out of business, the uncaring and unscrupulous, who are only 
interested in the bottom line, become much more motivated to avoid 
causing injury to their customers. Allowing them to ignore these 
consequences, will cost everyone much more in the long run.
John Blumel

40) From: Brett Mason
OK everyone, tonight at bedtime, thank the Good Lord for all lawyers, 
politicians and beaurocrats, considering we would all die without them....
Boy am I grateful!
Brett
 On Apr 12, 2005 10:55 AM, John Blumel  wrote: 
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee!

41) From: Tom Ulmer
I truly believe that a caveat emptor approach to a kit of this type would be
appropriate. Let the buyer know up front that there is no product liability
insurance and the manufacturer / marketer is not responsible for anything.
You could even require a purchase agreement.
The physician I go to requires that his patients sign a waiver. He states in
the waiver that he does not carry malpractice insurance and that he is human
and thus capable of making mistakes. It further states that if you find the
statement distasteful or not agreeable then he is not the doctor for you. I
took one look at this, eyeballed the doctor, and knew he was the right guy
for me.

42) From: Gene Smith
<Snip>
I think it is important to point out that John's statement is by no means 
theoretical.  Every product liability law on the books was put there in 
response to the grossest sort of bad behavior on the part of 
manufacturers - despite the currently fashionable view that it is all 
traceable to lawyers getting rich at the expense of poor, well-meaning 
entrepreneurs.  You may also be certain that every single one of those laws 
was fought tooth-and-nail by the folks regulated and therefore none was 
passed casually because legislators had nothing better to do that day.
Back when America was "great" we just accepted a LOT more carnage as 
normal.  In the glory days of the steam riverboats, for example, races were 
very common - as were boiler explosions in consequence.  History records 
that these events were often occasioned by many of the passengers cheering 
the crew on to greater efforts at speed.
Relative to earlier complaints about the inherent 'wrongness' of men, I 
think we may safely assume that the majority of those daring the riverboat 
captains to ignore safety would have been men...don't you think?
It fascinates me that much legislation that was intended as a corrective to 
viewing the vast bulk of society as industrial cannon fodder is now 
fashionably disparaged - seemingly most often by the very people whose 
welfare would, in an earlier era, have been considered a perfectly 
reasonable sacrifice to 'progress.'
Gene Smith
riding the wild learning curve, in Houston

43) From: Gene Smith
<Snip>
Oh, I think we could generalize this approach with great benefit to the 
society.  We could create just such a waiver for all who find the idea of 
legal recourse distasteful, wherein they would disqualify themselves from 
ever bringing a lawsuit.
Think what a great effect this would have on the economy!  Of course, 
something tells me that investing a whole lot of money in paper for these 
documents might be a bad idea.  Perhaps we should see how many people are 
willing to sign first...
Gene Smith
who is pretty sure that both bad behavior and necessary reform invariably 
pertain to "those other people" - and never himself or his friends.

44) From: Gene Smith
<Snip>
politicians and beaurocrats, considering we would all die without them....
<Snip>
While you're down there on your knees, Brett, you might ask the Almighty 
why so many God fearing folk turn to hated lawyers when they feel they have 
been ill used.  Surely prayer and meek acceptance would be a more 
appropriate response to life's travails?
Gene Smith
who has had occasion to thank the Good Lord for lawyers...and doctors and 
quite a few others...

45) From: Brett Mason
Hi Gene,
 You & I are often at distant places on the spectrum of ideology, and that'=
s 
certainly OK to me. My only thought is that if we build a perfect society=
 
where everyone is protected from everything, then what is the point? For 
example, someone, someday, may get sick from coffee, and the bureaucracy 
could make coffee illegal and put Tom & Maria away for life. Arguably, this=
 
is way out there, but in principle this is the end result of an 
overprotective system.
 My friends in Asia often would say "You smoke, you die; You don't smoke,=
 
you die. Why not smoke, and die?" Now these have not studied as much as our=
 
vaunted lawyers have studied, and no doubt our politicians are better at 
politics than theirs, but at what point do we say "No" and take back 
responsibility for our own lives?
 Now regareding so many God fearing folk who turn to lawyers when they feel=
 
they have been ill used, I don't know any of them. Perhaps if you know them=
, 
you could ask?
 Regards,
Brett
 
 On Apr 12, 2005 11:35 AM, Gene Smith  wrote: 
<Snip>
.
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee!

46) From: Gene Smith
<Snip>
they have been ill used, I don't know any of them. Perhaps if you know 
them,
you could ask?
<Snip>
Oh, dear!  You mean all those people filing lawsuits are *atheists*?  I had 
no idea there were so many of them!  That *is* disturbing news!
Gene Smith
who has never sued anyone and therefore does not consider himself 
litigious, in Houston

47) From: Justin Marquez
(i!) No - only the lawyers are godless. (which of course is NOT TRUE
in every case, only enough to allow a generalization)
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.com Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
On 4/12/05, Gene Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
ad
<Snip>
ribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
--

48) From: akkmom
Okay - as a lawyer (although one in the pupal stage  - larval being law school and pupal in practice less than 10 years) -I just felt the need to add my two cents - a bad lawsuit can't be filed unless a person wants it filed in the first place (sort of like a chicken or egg question - which comes first, the bad client or the bad attorney who will take the case).  If we had loser pays costs in this country like I believe they do in the UK, we wouldn't have people wanting to sue McDonald's for selling fattening food.  
---------

49) From: Brett Mason
I just feel bad for the inventor who can't sell his stuff because of the 
great risks of litigation brought on by stupid people acting stupid... ((no=
t 
that I would generalize...))
Interesting discussion all!
Brett
On 4/12/05, akkmom  wrote:
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
If 
<Snip>
 we 
<Snip>
. 
<Snip>
w 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee!

50) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Brett,  That's the cost of doing business, nothing to feel sad about.  =
Designers must allow for people, not acting stupid, but acting like =
humans. They forget, they make mistakes, and they don't read the =
instructions. People have an expectation that a product is inherently =
safe.  So designers pay attention to all sorts of things like the =
spacing between the bars on a crib so an infants head doesn't get stuck. =
If a designer doesn't pay attention to likely ways a person will misuse =
a product, they may become liable for the mishap as much as the user.  =
The legal term is 'error of ommission'.  Its the cost of doing business. =
You learn that you either go back to the drawing board, or go onto the =
next project.  Same with counter top appliances like home roasters. You =
have to admit, the chance of fire is pretty great. Dan
  I just feel bad for the inventor who can't sell his stuff because of =
the great risks of litigation brought on by stupid people acting =
stupid...  ((not that I would generalize...))
  Interesting discussion all!
  Brett

51) From: AlChemist John
I am not really in the mood to discuss whether this country is or not 
litigious, whether it is appropriate or if it has made our country safe.  I 
would like you opinion on the "purchase agreement, not responsible" 
liability waiver.  Is that kind of thing practical or basically an empty 
safety net?
I really don't see myself pursuing a "kit" but what it would be would be 
the prefab frame that has to bolt together, holes to mount the motor, and 
raw materials for the heating coils and controls.  Of course it would come 
with "how to's" and "don't do this" (roast inside, i.e. this is an outside 
roaster, don't leave unattended" etc.
Thoughts?
Sometime around 20:36 4/12/2005, akkmom typed:
<Snip>
I truly believe that a caveat emptor approach to a kit of this type would be
appropriate. Let the buyer know up front that there is no product liability
insurance and the manufacturer / marketer is not responsible for anything.
You could even require a purchase agreement.
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

52) From: Angelo
Though not Asian, my father would say the same thing. So, in 1959 he 
finally died of lung cancer at the age of 52. The doctors at the time 
attributed it to his smoking 3 packs a day since he was 12. I don't think, 
if he knew the agony he was going to go through in that last year, he would 
have been so cavalier.
More than 40 yrs later, cigarettes are still legal and are still being 
marketed to the young.
Interestingly, I don't smoke, but my younger sister does. She has just gone 
through surgery for breast cancer (supposedly "cured"), but still doesn't 
think there is any connection between her smoking and the disease...
People with addictions are very good at making up statements like, 
"Everybody dies, so do what you wish to make life more 'enjoyable'."
In the end, I wonder how many really accept the responsibility.....
Angelo
<Snip>

53) From: Angelo
I'm wondering if someone sold plans to build an electrical device with 
parts which could be obtained at places like Radio Shack and the device 
failed, who would be responsible for the failure - the plan seller, Radio 
Shack or the builder...?
Angelo
<Snip>

54) From: Ed Needham
The one with the worst lawyer.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] somewhere in the subject line of any email correspondence)
*********************

55) From: Brent - SC/TO Roasting
John,
I've worked in litigatin for 20+ years, some of it was product
liability (but am not a lawyer).  So, this is not legal advice - just
thoughts based on observation and some experience.
Every state's laws will be different on the subject of whether a
consumer can legally waive their rights and there are federal consumer
protection laws, as well.  Even with a waiver signed by a competent
adult and if the law was on your side, there is always the chance that
you will end up getting sued by someone.  A good question to ask is: 
would income from the business cover the cost of a lawsuit?  Some
states make the losing party pay attorneys fees for the winning side,
but if you are sued by an individual and win, the chances of getting
back several thousand dollars (or more) in legal fees is probably
slim.
Also, a waiver of rights is not the same as a contract.  The law may
view the transaction as a "contract to purchase" which is a different
animal and which might negate any waiver.
If you are thinking of pursuing this, talking to a business attorney
would be helpful in my opinion.  Checking out consumer protection info
at www.ftc.gov and at www.nolo.com might be helpful too.  In a couple
of hours of work, an attorney should be able to tell you if your idea
is workable and also provide you with the proper legal language needed
for the waiver.  It's one of those situations where, IMHO, a few
hundred bucks spent at the outset will save you a lot of heart (and
money) ache in the future.
-- 
Brent
Roasting in an SC/TO
For a Drip/Moka/Presspot Brew
On 4/13/05, AlChemist John  wrote:
<Snip>
 I
<Snip>
the
<Snip>
th
<Snip>
 If
<Snip>
 we
<Snip>
. 
<Snip>
 be
<Snip>
ty 
<Snip>
. 
<Snip>

56) From: akkmom
I question whether it would really be of any benefit - the state in which you live may have some sort of statute that doesn't allow a person to waive certain protections (unlikely, but possible).  A court could determine that the plaintiff didn't fully appreciate the dangers posed. 
One really good example of a case in which there could/should be an awareness of the dangers (or potential dangers) of a product is the infamous McDonalds coffee case (an appropriate one to mention in a coffee list).  This case has been heralded by many as the reason we need tort reform.  The problem is that all people hear is that a woman was sitting in her grandson's car putting cream in her McDonalds coffee (holding the cup between her legs), spilled the cup and was burned.  The jury verdict in that case was several million dollars.  What wasn't reported by the media was the fact that the verdict was lowered by the judge for the plaintiff's contributory negligence.  The parties then settled for a lesser amount (assume McDonalds settled to avoid more legal fees in appealing the case).  Also not reported was the fact that McDonalds received more than 700 complaints about injuries and did nothing.  The original jury verdict was the equivalent of McDonalds profit in coffee sal
 es for one day of business (I believe the region was the state in which the action was filed).  Was the plaintiff negligent, yes.  But she was also a 79 year old woman (and thus a sympathetic plaintiff) and she had to have skin grafts performed on her thighs and genitals to correct the damage done by the coffee.
So even if someone knows or should have known the dangers, you could be subject to liability if something goes haywire (plaintiff assumes risk of getting burned, but not house burning down).  Bottom line - if you were my client, I wouldn't assume a waiver would protect you from liability.
---------

57) From: Brett Mason
Hi Dan,
 The same chance of fire is true for every meal cooked on a stove... I 
believe we have a pathetic record of finger pointing and non-responsibility=
.
 Brett
 On 4/13/05, Dan Bollinger  wrote: 
<Snip>
s. 
<Snip>
s 
<Snip>
 a 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
is 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
not 
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee!

58) From: Brett Mason
The Plan Seller would be. It's not the poor assembler's fault he's an idiot=
.
 The inventor of course will live long, cause he doesn't stick his wire int=
o 
a socket with his bare hand. 
(He already did that, lived, and didn't sue anybody. Too many things to 
invent, not enough time to sue anyone...)
 Hope the anti-caffeine lobby doesn't hook up with the anti-tobacco lobby..=
.
 Regards,
Brett
 On 4/13/05, Angelo  wrote: 
<Snip>
d
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
t
<Snip>
h
<Snip>
o
<Snip>
g
<Snip>
d 
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee!

59) From: Brett Mason
Jim Jones Kool Aid is almost 100% effective, and has no additional legal 
fees...
Brett
 On 4/13/05, Brent - SC/TO Roasting  wrote: 
<Snip>
om>might be helpful too. In a couple
<Snip>
. 
<Snip>
e 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
t
<Snip>
h
<Snip>
. 
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
__]_
_(( )_ Please don't spill the coffee!

60) From: Justin Marquez
On 4/13/05, Angelo  wrote:
<Snip>
That  is a lot easier to say BEFORE you find out about having an
incurable disease.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)http://www.justinandlinda.com

61) From: AlChemist John
I am not really thinking about pursuing it really - I just don't have the 
time.  But I do like to have the pertinent information in hand.  Thanks a lot.
Sometime around 08:58 4/13/2005, Brent - SC/TO Roasting typed:
<Snip>
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/


HomeRoast Digest