Do Coffee Grinders have to be expensive ? I have been using a cheap $40 burr grinder (DeLonghi) for some time now, and it seems to me that I am making good coffee with it. Am I deluding myself ? Could coffee ground in a $150 grinder really be much better ?http://store.yahoo.com/wholesalesoftware/dcg4t.html |
<Snip> Oh, Dear Lord! You may or may not be deluding yourself...but you have *definitely* just pinned a "KICK ME" sign to your Levis. Gene Smith awaiting the inevitable fulminations, in Houston |
Jeremy, As a recent convert to an expensive grinder (and a long-time holdout), I would say it does matter for espresso. I actually think the term "grinder" is misleading - the better grinders don't really grind, they tear. It took a year before I finally got info that convinced me there's a difference. I don't do well with the "buy it because everyone says so" way of thinking. The expensive grinders differ in a couple of ways: they rip the beans (instead of crushing them) which exposes more surface area to get full extraction of the flavor and they are designed to grind and not heat up too much which can destroy bean flavor. This is accomplished through milled steel burrs with sharp, cutting (aka grinding) edges. The plate burrs actually look like the plate burrs in less expensive grinders, but you can see the difference between the sharpenes and you can definitely feel it. I'd been using a Cuisinart grinder (about $80) for a couple of years for drip, presspot, and moka pot brews. It worked for those. It really did not work too well for espresso so I finally upgraded to a Rocky. And the Rocky works much better for espresso. The Rocky did make improvements in the drip/moka/presspot brews, too. But I don't like having to dial back and forth on the Rocky. So, I'm keeping both grinders and will continue to use the Cuisinart for everything but espresso. Most of the time. So I say now. :) If you like how your coffee tastes with your equipment, that's the most important thing. Even a whirlyblade grinder (with homeroasted) will provide better coffee than most folks who buy the canned store stuff or shop at *$s. -- Brent Roasting in an SC/TO Espressing myself in a LaPavoni (and drip/moka/presspots) |
I think its all in what you want .... I have both and inexpensive grinder, Solis M+ and a more costly one ... M4. Believe me ... I can tell the differents. I have a lot to learn about grinders, but one thing for sure is the differents between quantity one can grind, quality of the burrs, and a motor that just wont quit. I tried running the Solis for a long duration once grinding a pound of coffee for a friend, the smell I was getting wasn't coffee, it was the motor getting ready to burst into flames. Needless to say ... I didn't do that again. I think for the most part, you get what you pay for. If your happy with what you have ...by all means stick with it, just don't try a high end grinder, or you'll be running to the bank. Later, Bob <Snip> |
Great points Brent ... Thanks, Bob <Snip> |
I won't comment about grinders for expresso, because I've never made espresso. But I did own a grinder that looks just like the one you're referencing; mine had the "Braun" name on it. It seemed to me, after using this grinder for a couple of years, that it was giving me too much dust. So I gave it to some friends to use at their cottage, and I bought a Capresso Infinity for US$100. We recently spent three days at that cottage with those friends, and I had to use that grinder again. Wow! How did I ever tolerate the grounds all over the counter, the static cling, the terrible screaming noise as it was grinding? Just the fact that my Infinity gears down from the motor speed to a sensible speed (and noise level) is worth the difference in cost to me. Dave S. jeremy wrote: <Snip> |
On Sep 2, 2005, at 5:15 PM, jeremy wrote:
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In my opinion yes.
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Yes.
Jim Gundlach
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"The espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder, not the other
way around."
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Since truth is such an intensely personal issue, the only way to find out is to do like McKoffee suggest in his tag line and tread the steps of your path to enlightenment. It sounds like you are starting to question your standards. Watch out... you're a half a step away. To say that you can't make good coffee with inexpensive equipment is malarkey. You can make an excellent cup with quite literally stone and cloth - with the appropriate consideration and care. Everything ultimately comes down to style, convenience, and of course your budget. admin] On Behalf Of jeremy Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:16 PM To: homeroast Subject: +Do Coffee Grinders have to be expensive ? Am I deluding myself ? Could coffee ground in a $150 grinder really be much better ? |
I actually have that same model grinder, and I can attest that a quality grinder (I have a Faema commercial...) does make a difference. Mike |
I have the Bunn grinder. But it only renders a coarser Grind, great for French press coffee. Now I'm on the lookout For something that will provide a finer grind. On 9/3/05 10:45 AM, "Michael Eyre" wrote: <Snip> |
Does a grinder have to be expensive? My Mazzer Major cost less than $40.00.= A good cleaning an new burrs I am set for about 600 pounds of beans for a= little over $100.00. How much is a very substantial increase in coffee flavor worth? I find it so interesting to run into folks with $1,000 plus= espresso machines and a whirley bird grinder! They would be much better off= with the standard Rancilio Setup, and Rocky and Miss Silva. What I find missing in this discussion is why the grinder is so important. Let me explain. We can roast by various methods from a simple Wok or all the way t= o a Hottop and get results that are basically the same, excellent. We pay for= convenience I believe. So my point is all things said and done, you can do = a really good roast by any standard method. On the other end, you can get a= nice one cup pour-over or a Technovirm. If you do things right both times= you have really good coffee. I have pulled as good a shot on a used Krups a= s I have on a $12,000.00 LM. The LM was much easier. So the point is we generally have the front end and the back end covered by proper technique.= Technique cannot make up for two things (1) Poor Green beans to start with= (Tom has taken care of that issue.) and the channel that all coffee must go= through to get from the roast to the cup no matter what method and that is= the Grinder. That is why the Grinder is the central most important piece of= equipment because technique cannot make up for a poor grind. That is why it= is important to spend a reasonable amount on a good grinder. There are a number of them out there. That is why I think a good used commercial grinde= r is a pretty good deal. Simply replace the burrs and do some cleaning and it= may not look new, but it will work like it was new. Or bit the bullet and= get a good grinder. The more I have worked with the Rocky, for the money it= is hard to beat. Another way to look at the Rocky is that it will out last = 3 Solis Maestros on its first set of burrs. So in less that 2 or 3 years your= investment will begin to pay off and the grinder will be in reality cheaper= . My Mazzer Major will last the rest of my life, and I am sure one of my children will enjoy it after me and I plan on being around for 30 or more= years. A grinder is an investment. It is the mechanical manipulation that= all of your coffee must pass through that is why it is so important. Les On 9/3/05, Gene Merritt wrote: <Snip> y <Snip> n <Snip> |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Les is absolutely right. I was about to write the same information when = I had time. I have to admit Les's explanation is even better than I = could have written. My daughter used a whirly blade for years. I kept = after her to buy a Rocky but she wouldn't spring for the cash. So for = her birthday I sent her a Solis Maestro. She is thrilled with the change = in her coffee. I have an ulterior motive in my gift. I figure in 2 or 3 = years when her Solis gives up the ghost. I will send her my Rocky and = replace it with a Mazzer. My mother had no stupid children. |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Ok, so you keep saying that a good grinder is better, but you never = bothered to say what makes a good one better. You did mention that it will last longer, but some people can afford $40 every year for a grinder, but = have a hard time coming up with $250 for a grinder. What is it that makes a good grinder better? How does it make better coffee? ---- 9/3/2005 10:48:18 AM San Diego, CA - 65°F and Cloudy, Wind From NE at 4 mph with 86% RH = (10:20) ICBM: 32°42'48" 117°10'13" Now playing: No Tunes! "Conversation is the enemy of good wine and food." --Alfred Hitchcock From: Les … What I find missing in this discussion is why the grinder is so = important. Let me explain. We can roast by various methods from a simple Wok or = all the way to a Hottop and get results that are basically the same, = excellent. We pay for convenience I believe. So my point is all things said and = done, you can do a really good roast by any standard method. On the other = end, you can get a nice one cup pour-over or a Technovirm. If you do things right both times you have really good coffee. … Technique cannot = make up for two things (1) Poor Green beans to start with (Tom has taken care of that issue.) and the channel that all coffee must go through to get from = the roast to the cup no matter what method and that is the Grinder. That is = why the Grinder is the central most important piece of equipment because technique cannot make up for a poor grind. That is why it is important = to spend a reasonable amount on a good grinder. There are a number of them = out there. … |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Its the burrs. They are heavy duty and offer a constant uniform grind = with little or no dust. In addition the burrs are replaceable. The motor = of the grinder is powerful and quiet. Plus the motor is powerful enough = to be geared down to a slower rate to insure the uniform grind. |
In a message dated 9/3/2005 1:55:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rick writes: What is it that makes a good grinder better? How does it make better coffee? What you are paying for is the quality of the coffee grinds. No dust or fines to overextract and make your brew bitter or clog filters. Uniform grind size to ensure consistent, even extraction. Fluffy, multifaceted particles with more surface area for more exposure and better locking under the pressure of espresso extraction. Secondarily, they typically run at slower speeds so that they don't overheat and denature the grinds. And the grinds are distributed evenly without clumping or static. Some of the factors in a quality grinder may be critical (make or break) for espresso (e.g., ability to adjust for golden rule, channeling), but just important (incremental improvement) for other preparation methods (better taste, less grinds needed). Other items, doser vs doserless, timer vs on-off switch, size of hopper, overall convenience, etc. won't affect taste directly and tend to be valued differently based on personal preference and style. Lots of discussion on these points, but there is almost universal agreement that you can taste the difference, and it is worth the price and even the inconvenience of many commercial style grinders for home use. MichaelB |
Jeremy: the answer is no, you do not need to spend $$$$ for a grinder. If the coffee tastes good to you, enjoy. I am testing a 29 dollar cusinart plastic burr grinder against my mini right now. Does my Solis know how I ground the coffee, I think not. Do my La Valentina know how I ground the coffee, NOT. The only thing that matters is how/if I enjoy that cup. I am going to taste test coffee this weekend with several local residents here at my Scottsdale compound (read my aparetment complex) so I will be able to give you real figures and thoughts on this grinder biz. Now I know Mr. Pecan Jim will not agree with me here since he is a firm believer that the grinder comes first. I think is really boils down to taste. ginny more later <Snip> |
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Okay, here's a grinder question that I don't believe I have heard fully addressed: Are any of the professional grinders that people buy and refurbish easy (relatively) to use when switching back and forth between brewing methods every day? Clearly there are good espresso-only grinders at a variety of prices and in a variety of configurations...but does *anything* stand out as convenient (rather than merely acceptable) for a wide variety of grinds? Gene Smith threading the wild learning curve, in Houston |
The Macap-4 is very easy to adjust. I drink Espresso in the morning and french press in the afternoon. The only disadvantage to the Macap is not having the infinent adjustment of the Mazzer. On 9/3/05, Gene Smith wrote: <Snip> ribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip> -- George Holt Waxhaw, NC 28173 |
Gene, I go from espresso to Vac pot in less that 2 seconds on my Mazzer Major. I= just move the lever from a few notches below 1 to a 3. When I go for an espresso session it goes right back where it is suppose to in terms of grind. It is very easy. I have my set points for Vac Pot, French Press, and= Mocha Pot worked out. Espresso grinds often change within a narrow band jus= t below 1 on my machine. And speaking of speed, I don't think I could go down= to a Mini, it is just too slow. I am spoiled! It turns at the same speed,= but my burrs are massive! Les Mazzer Zar Dreaming, 150mm Titanium coated burrs rated at 4.4 pounds a minute! On 9/3/05, Gene Smith wrote: <Snip> |
I agree with Les, the Solis I had worked well for about three months, =
then replacing the one replaceable burr did not help. However, there =
are some people who simply keep insisting that there cheap grinders
are adequate without trying a good grinder. One of those is my cheap =
brother. How cheap is he? Well, a couple of years ago he got me a
stainless milk frothing pot with the flimsiest plastic frothing ring
and screen I ever saw. After I opened it his immediate comment
was: "Guess how much I paid for it? I got two for $3.00 and I kept
one for myself."
Given that the grinder issue has been discusses, re-discussed, and re- =
discussed, I will refer future requests for grinder options to the
archives.
Jim Gundlach
On Sep 3, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Les wrote:
<Snip>
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The Rocky adjusts pretty easily. I switch back and forth between drip = and espresso several times a week. I put a little sticky label on the Drip = and espresso settings. After cleaning and calibrating I usually have to find = the sweet spots again, hence the removable labels. Bob Dexter, Oregon |
In a message dated 9/3/2005 11:50:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gene writes: Okay, here's a grinder question that I don't believe I have heard fully addressed: Are any of the professional grinders that people buy and refurbish easy (relatively) to use when switching back and forth between brewing methods every day? Clearly there are good espresso-only grinders at a variety of prices and in a variety of configurations...but does *anything* stand out as convenient (rather than merely acceptable) for a wide variety of grinds? Unfortunately this is a question only you can answer to your satisfaction. My take is - it's easy enough for me. My mazzer mini typically sits at 6 +/- a few notches for espresso, and it's superb at providing just a tweak up or down to get a perfect lever pull. For drip I move it to 7, for French press it's 8, and for Turkish/Greek coffee, 5 or as close to that as I can get. The movable collar has screw holes for an extension rod, a metal bar with plastic handle to help guide the movement. I can place it in one of several locations around the collar to get the best grip and movement. I have bought a second handle to get an even better grip, and make it easier to move and stop at the exact point I want. IMO moving it one notch for finer espresso, or one number (10 notches) for a different type of grind is the same degree of difficulty. For me it is acceptable. If someone advertised the same quality grind and easier movement and setting, I would be somewhat interested, but I would not trade a lesser quality grind, and there would probably have to be other improvements (doser convenience, portafilter holder, dispersion pattern, etc.) to make me consider a change. And to consider it from the other direction, if a grinder came out that produced a better quality grind than the mini, and produced a noticeable improvement in taste, I would be more likely to consider that for an upgrade, even if the ability to adjust it was less convenient. MichaelB |
I love my min o but I ONLY use it for my espresso. Thats why I got the 29 dollar burr from costco ti use for "other" coffee drinkers and so far they feel and taste the same coffee they did a week ago from me. Changing the mini to anything else is very easy it''s getting it perfect for espresso again that I hate. g To answer your original question, I don't know Gene. <Snip> |
As one drinks coffee, one's tastes progress I think. Once the plunge is taken to become more involved with your beverage of choice, you will first= find that the stuff you've been paying for gets farther and farther away from the Right Cup! (I used to think McDreck was good coffee if I got it before 0630.) You ask: Ok, so you keep saying that a good grinder is better, but you never bothere= d to say what makes a good one better. BURRS! It's just like the automotive industry, whose iron has no different purpose= now than it did when first concieved. The design has evolved: the older models had all the handling and comfort of a Radio Flyer wagon. The ENIAC, or the Electrical Numerical Integrator and Computer of the mid= 40's weighed tons and occupied an area equal to a small home.... Half that= long ago, my Post Versalog was replaced by a pocket-sized, battery-operated= HP 35 of far more power than the ENIAC. I could calculate wrong answers to= nine decimal places almost instantly! I saw a picture of a sign on one of the farms Tom chronicled that said, "Without the love, it's only coffee" Good coffee is a perception, and you= wonder how businesses thrive, like *$ with it's vile sludge. They use some= of the best available machines to produce a drink they sell for almost Fourbucks. In deference to the work that has preceded our acquisition of the Best Gree= n Coffee in the World, it would be pretty primary of us to arbitrarily stop= some avenue of progress because of cost or convenience. If we do that, how= much potentially good coffee are we willing to subject to mediocrity? Personally, I'm really enjoying some Ethiopian Sidamo about 40 hrs since it= emerged from the Fires of Hell. Just starting second crack when rescued, th= e beans were cool overnight in the fruit jar, and it really Poofed when I loosened the band. The perfume of Ethiopia! The TV drip is just super, but I made a Monster double for my wife, The Celtic Critic, last night. She rolled her eyes and said, "This is Good!" First time I used my new tamper. Although we are advised to Measure! the ol= d tamper, my oldie was the supplied plastic thingie. At 49.5mm diameter, I thought to measure the basket for a better fit. At 53.5mm ID, I got the 53m= m foot for the tamper. I never packed the grounds that well before!. And I withdrew it with a twist! This just happens to be week #2 of New Burrs ($55) on the Mazzer Major. The= original burrs on the MM were 10 years old. A Giant Leap Forward from the= well-known conical-burred $149 Crunch Maestro plus $20 more for the new burrs I ordered. I thought my SMP was a Monday morning Special. I thought= the same of the new burrs- but the outer ring was even worse. You get what you pay for- so why risk excellent green coffee with execrable= equipment? Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! One good shot deserves another! |
At 5:45 PM -0500 9/3/05, Brett Mason wrote: <Snip> The burrs themselves are important but are only part of the equation. The design of the system itself and how successfully the burrs are held evenly makes a huge difference. (That is one of the Solis' problems: the burrs wiggle enough that when set to grind finely they wear out). Some grinders, if the burrs are set too close the grinding parts of the burrs will touch and become dull. On better designed grinders (like the Gaggia MDF and Rocky, and such) if the burr wheels touch there is no possibility of damage to the grinding part of the burrs since the grinding parts can never touch. On some grinders the burr spacing is uneven or wiggles which limits how well the coffee will really grind. For years, I had a cheap (under $100) burr grinder and could not believe how much better the coffee tasted when I finally could afford a better grinder. So, if one can't afford a good grinder, enjoy what you can afford. But when you can afford a better grinder, you won't regret it. (NOTE: the Zass hand grinders deliver a grind quality comparable to Rocky and the Gaggia MDF for those with limited budgets but a desire to get the best coffee they can). That's my .02, Edward |
Many years ago, my folks had a wall-mounted grinder with a blue windmill on the top ceramic hopper. I liked to crunch the whole beans and watch the glass vacuum pot work. I was the defacto coffee maker, but it was too hot and too weak for me. I added more grounds once and Dad's brow wrinkled when he sipped it. I formulated Ray's Basic Coffee Law #1 at the time, and saved the morning: "You can always modulate strong coffee with hot water to correct the brew, but not the reverse!" (1a was Dad's idea). Anyway, you are exactly right about the SMP's problems. Even when it's set to a grinding setting, the upper stationary burr can wobble slightly. But there's more to the SMP story. I don't know- or care- what their curren= t production is like. A year ago, when I got a new SMP, the upper ring burr had been cut with a very dull cutting tool. Very rough piece, so it gouged = a lot of fines out of the beans instead of just shearing them cleanly. I thought I had gotten a "Monday morning burr set" but the replacement set that I bought from the polite but useless person at Baratza, the importer, was even worse. A cheap but valuable education. The $0.99 special Maestro from the thrift store actually had the best of the Solis burrs, and I thought it had swallowed a pebble. Please pardon my terrible tardiness. Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! -- "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Wichita WurliTzer |