HomeRoast Digest


Topic: IR2 (30 msgs / 776 lines)
1) From: Bob Adams
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Greetings,
I have been roasting with the IR1 for close to two years and in Dec.05 =
picked up an IR2 for more capacity. The second IR seemed to be running =
very hot compared to my IR1 and also seemed to disregard inputted =
profile. 
 
Talked to Emily at Hearthware and she very congenially sent me a =
replacement IR2.
This one seems to run more like my IR1, though reported temps(from IR =
readout) are about 10 degrees higher than what I was used to.
Got to talk to James the tech guy at Hearthware yesterday and he =
revealed some things about the IR2.
-The base and roasting chamber have a tighter fit; this is obvious to =
those who have used both. The temp sensor has not been moved. The =
tighter fit may explain less of a variance between reported and actual =
temps?
-The IR2 disregards inputted profile for the first 3 minutes of all =
roasts. It is factory set to attain 355 F. I thought this a major =
revelation at first but realized the beans will take longer to get there =
anyway. I believe this is their way of forcing user to dry beans first.
-The IR2 uses both heating element and fan to attain inputted temps. The =
cycling of the fan is how the roaster maintains inputted temps (in =
conjuntion with the heating element?) Interestingly the IR2 fan cycles =
much less than the IR1.
I like these roasters very much. They are what they are, and for $200 =
they do alot. Our profiles, I believe, are more than mere suggestions to =
this roaster. One suggestion-keep the top screen as clear as possible. =
Hindering the exit airflow is disastrous.
Bob

2) From: Carole Zatz
Ronnie,
Regarding the fan speeds ... my experience is that slowing a fan speed
increases roasting temperature. The reason I say this is for the
profile I use, at one point I end up dropping down to 385F from 405F
to kick up the fan speed to help extend the roast time but not stall
it. So I'm trying to keep the heat up somewhat but also use a high fan
speed to stop it from burning.
So to answer your question >So if I use a temp setting of 410 verses
415, the slower fans speed at 415 will heat the beans much faster than
410?  And 410 might as well be 390?< I think the answer is yes.
Just confuse things more I have found that during long roasts (we
should be so lucky!) the fan will sometimes pulse speeds back and
forth on its own. When I have somehow arrived at a profile that does
this the roast results are usually the very best I can get from the
machine. I wish I could figure out how exactly this happens and
recreate it on will.
I got curious about the start-up process and  went back to the email I
got from Hearthware and they said this:
<Snip>
I think there is a difference if I do program 320F instead of 360F (or
385F) in the beginning but this is only a feeling and I have no
concrete measurements to tell if this is truly so.

3) From: Ronnie Kramer
Thanks Carole,
   
  I tried a roast this morning (not that I need any more roasted beans:) to see if the fan speed would effect the roast, using your info and Tom's.  I used the following profile and thinking;
   
  3:00 @ 350F (thinking it would be with high speed fan @ 350F)
  3:00 @ 390F (medium speed fan @ 390F)
  9:00 @ 420F (low speed at same temp as Stage II)
   
  At 3:00 the fan slowed down, but didn't change again through the roast.  So when it went from 390 to 420, no change in fan speed.  I had Vienna at 9:00 :)
   
  The on-board temp reading (recorded every 30 seconds) rose fairly steadily from just into stage II through the 3:00 of stage III.  So I'm fairly confident that the heating element didn't change from 390 to 420, as Tom said.
   
  All of my roasts have been good to great.  But I'm just frustrated at not understanding.
   
  I think I'm going to try 360F for 5:00, then 390F for 10:00.  If the fan speed doesn't change I suspect I'll be at Vienna in 9:00.
   
Carole Zatz  wrote:
  Ronnie,
Regarding the fan speeds ... my experience is that slowing a fan speed
increases roasting temperature. The reason I say this is for the
profile I use, at one point I end up dropping down to 385F from 405F
to kick up the fan speed to help extend the roast time but not stall
it. So I'm trying to keep the heat up somewhat but also use a high fan
speed to stop it from burning.
So to answer your question >So if I use a temp setting of 410 verses
415, the slower fans speed at 415 will heat the beans much faster than
410? And 410 might as well be 390?< I think the answer is yes.
Just confuse things more I have found that during long roasts (we
should be so lucky!) the fan will sometimes pulse speeds back and
forth on its own. When I have somehow arrived at a profile that does
this the roast results are usually the very best I can get from the
machine. I wish I could figure out how exactly this happens and
recreate it on will.
I got curious about the start-up process and went back to the email I
got from Hearthware and they said this:
<Snip>
I think there is a difference if I do program 320F instead of 360F (or
385F) in the beginning but this is only a feeling and I have no
concrete measurements to tell if this is truly so.Ronnie Kramer
Austin, TX

4) From: Carole Zatz
Okay, I have a Radio Shack multimeter and I test my voltage so that I
know it hasn't changed. I think Vicki is right in that Hearthware has
continually changed their machines over time. I do not have any
outside venting. I sit the IR2 on my range (a Wolf) with my
Vent-a-Hood running and a door cracked open. Now that this is winter,
with colder temperatures, you'd think that it would run even less
'hot'. (Not so.) My ambient temperature has not changed. When I say it
runs hot I mean if I use the same profile I used before, now I get
burned (quickly into second crack and into charcoal) at the same time
that it used to be still roasting (before second crack). Nothing has
changed except for a new IR2 power base.
There is no reason that given the same ambient temperature, same
voltage, same amount of beans, same beans (!), that any IR2 shouldn't
give you the same results with the same profile. To have such
different results is crazy.
This is my frustration.
I have just emailed Hearthware for a new powerbase that works like the
old one. I'll let you know what happens.

5) From: bb
I sent them an e-mail about mine running hot as well so we'll see what
happens across the board.

6) From: Carole Zatz
It's a good idea to figure out where the roasting information comes
from - it should be from Hearthware but they're not too forthcoming it
seems. The information about the 360F at high speed for 3 minutes did
come directly to me from Hearthware. The information about fan speeds
is not something I have developed myself (and it didn't come from
Hearthware, I bumped into it around 6 months ago but didn't write down
the web site address) but does agree with my informal observations.
My main frustration comes from the fact that I had a well-crafted
profile that with very little tweaking worked with a wide variety of
beans. It only required a different stopping point (when I would hit
COOL). At around 7 - 8 minutes in it would start first crack, then
about 3 - 4 minutes later (at around 10 - 12 in) second crack would
slowly start. The key word here is slowly. The problem with my new
machine is that it goes from 1 bean popping into second crack to a
full roll boil in a matter of seconds. This give me no time to hit
COOL. Either I end up stopping it too soon or going into French roast.
Also, this second crack is now happening at 9 minutes in (instead of
10 - 11) and first crack at 5 - 6 (instead of 7) minutes in. So my
overall roasting time is shorter. My days of a nice FC or FC+ are
basically history. BTW, my ambient temperature (I roast in my kitchen)
hasn't changed, the voltage is the same, same beans, ... Only real
difference is the powerbase.
If one machine wasn't 'hot' then it would at least work like the other one.
I do not use the Preset2 and never have. I only tried it to see if it
was in the slightest bit possible. It's not.
The profile that worked so with my first machine is:
320 / 2
350 / 2
375 / 2
400 / 2
425 / 7
This profile with the new power base ended up in a rapidly cascading
second crack over 2 minutes sooner than a slow SC would have started
with the old powerbase. By the time I hit COOL (around 15 seconds into
the SC - I couldn't believe my ears) it had shot into French. It was
quite a shock. When I complained about my new machine, I emailed them
all of information I had been gathering (e.g. settings, on-board
temperature readings every 30 seconds, FC and SC times, final roast
level, bean type, amount of chaff, etc.) of my various roasts (before
and after new power base). Hearthware told me:
<Snip>
<Snip>
They suggested the following profile:
385 / 4:30
420 / 2
405 / 1
345 / 3
400 / 4:30
Notice the drop from 420 to 405 to 345. This is an attempt to slow
down the cascade through second crack. It did help but as I said
earlier I still have much shorter overall roast times. Any changes I
make to the earlier stages (extending the times or lowering the
temperatures) seem to make absolutely no difference in length of
overall roast time.
Sorry to go on with this but I'll let you know when I hear back from
Hearthware. I think the more we know about the various idiosyncrasies
the more helpful it is. If I had gotten this powerbase the first time,
I wouldn't have know how much better it could work. I do have to say
that I think that my first one was hot too - especially when comparing
it to Vicki's!
I'll call them if I don't get an email back in a reasonable amount of time.

7) From: Carole Zatz
Vicki, I was thinking that there is one possibly significant
difference between your IR2 setup and mine. I run mine under my range
Vent-a-Hood (large professional model with dual fans). You're using a
hose to direct the smoke out a window. I'm going to try that (have to
buy dryer hose first) and see if/how it impacts my roasting times.
I'll use as little a bend as I can get away with.
I'd still never keep using the hose system. My range hood does a great
job in extracting the smoke and fumes and it's so easy - all I do is
crack the back door a bit. This is just an experiment to see what the
impact might be.

8) From: Vicki Smith
My stove exhaust fan  is a phony. It does not vent to the outside. 
Instead it just disperses the smoke faster throughout the house. When we 
redo the kitchen we'll get a "real" exhaust system. Until then, the 
dryer vent kit is the way to go for me. I have also moved the IR2 into 
our fireplace and let the chimney take care of it. That seemed to be 
more trouble than it was worth, as the out the window vent works well 
for me.
v
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Carole Zatz
Oh well, cancel my test ;)
Believe me, if could I figure out someway to do the HG/DB inside I
would try it. My hats are off to you guys battling 20F (and colder)
weather to roast. I grew up in Minnesota and am no longer that
interested in standing in the cold that long. And the garage is a no
go. It's really a chaff issue. Is there any other good way to deal
with the chaff indoors?

10) From: raymanowen
Consider:
Your home is a box.
When you remodel and get a "real" exhaust system to pump air out of the box,
your friend, Mr. Law, of Physics will pump air back into your box. Mr. Law
will use whatever is handy outside. The outside air won't magically become
warm as soon as it enters the box.
Mr. Furnace will have to work on every cubic foot of air that enters to make
up for the heat you toss out. Would you like a Polar Fleece blouse?
Filters don't extract heat, only chaff and odors. Recirculate heat,
recirculate heat, recirculate heat!
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich

11) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
 no no no!! i live in the world of ideals, and my box is adiabatic :p  
From: raymanowen [mailto:raymanowen] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:29 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +IR2
Consider:
Your home is a box.
When you remodel and get a "real" exhaust system to pump air out of the box,
your friend, Mr. Law, of Physics will pump air back into your box. Mr. Law
will use whatever is handy outside. The outside air won't magically become
warm as soon as it enters the box. 
Mr. Furnace will have to work on every cubic foot of air that enters to make
up for the heat you toss out. Would you like a Polar Fleece blouse?
Filters don't extract heat, only chaff and odors. Recirculate heat,
recirculate heat, recirculate heat! 
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich

12) From: raymanowen
Adiabatic- "The Magic Therm." Check your heat at the door... -ro

13) From: Carole Zatz
Hearthware is sending me another powerbase. So far I've gotten very
good Customer Service - if only the product was as consistent! I guess
I'll have to go through the whole profile-building process again. I'm
hopeful that this new unit will resolve the problem.
Just for a lark I ran a Preset2 roast using 150g of Sulawesi beans and
kept track of the temperature every 30 seconds (I don't have a
thermocouple so I don't have that data).
11:30  Start
11:00  246
10:00  288
 9:00  306
 8:00 342
 7:00 350
 6:00 356
 5:00 360
 4:00 365
It hit first crack at 4:25 minutes into the roast. Then I pulled it at
15 seconds past when the second crack started at 8:00 minutes into the
roast. This was yesterday - today the beans have some oil spots on
them and there are some pale beans (not sure if it's an uneven roast
or just the bean). Clearly the onboard temperatures don't make sense.
Also, the fan started on high and then dropped down in speed at 3
minutes into the roast.

14) From: Vicki Smith
One advantage to trying the preset is that if you talk to Hearthware 
about your roaster, they are sooooo familiar with how their machines are 
designed to behave with that profile. I haven't ever roasted the 
Sulawesi, so I don't know anything about how the bean roasts.
My fan speed always changes at 3 minutes in. That is where their 
reported three minutes at 350 factory setting plays a part, I think. 
Remember the lower fan speed is supposed to increase temps, and at three 
minutes, your roaster needed the increase (as do most of them except the 
hotties,  I bet).
I bought my thermocouple from SM, and found it easy to thread it into 
the roasting chamber through the top of the roaster. I don't use it all 
that often, because it is hard to get a good seating for the vent when 
it is in place, and I really, really hate the sound of our smoke 
detectors. They are wired in (not batteries, except for back-up), and 
all four of them sound off when one is triggered.
vicki
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Ross
Hi Vicki,
What type of thermocouple do you use?  Where exactly do you position it?
Thanks,
Ross

16) From: Vicki Smith
See:http://sweetmarias.com/prod.roastkits.shtmlIt's the third item down.
  I just threaded it through the holes in the top and in the chaff 
collector. As I said earlier, I don't use it often, as I have to roast 
with the vent in place. I know other folks have done it in other ways. 
The position will vary, depending on what set of holes you use. I know I 
bent it a bit so that it was parallel to the bottom of the roasting 
chamber. If you are consistent with the way you thread it, the position 
will end up being more or less the same each time.
I think we IR2 roasters do need to keep in mind the silk purse/sows ear 
analogy and accept the limitations of this small roasting appliance. If 
folks have fun working with the roaster and make some progress 
customizing profiles and improving quality in the cup, that's terrific. 
At some point, spending more money for a better roaster, or 
making/modding something else, if you have the skills to do that, might 
be a better idea.
vicki
Ross wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Carole Zatz
Vicki wrote:
<Snip>
That's really interesting! I may yet try my 'hot' IR2 with a dryer
vent attached. And I'll put a bend in it like yours in your blog site.
Maybe that will slow my roaster down?
Can someone clarify again why a bend which impedes airflow would
actually slow down a roast? I thought a blocked (e.g. with chaff) vent
would restrict the airflow and that restricted airflow increases roast
air temp which would result in a faster roast. I think I'm missing
something basic here.
I'll try looking for the message about the bend in the archives.

18) From: Vicki Smith
That issue has confounded me in the past, Carole. My read on it has been 
that just as adding chaff into the chaff collector when roasting decaf 
beans helps to slow down the roast because it impedes airflow out of the 
roaster, the bend works in the same way. It still doesn't really make 
sense, but I know the chaff trick works.
I am wondering if there is a difference between impeding airflow as it 
enters the roaster, through the side vents, and as it exits the roaster, 
through the vent. All this is further confused my Hearthware saying that 
the vent itself (independent of the bend or no bend issue) makes a 
roaster run faster.
I no longer have the bendy one up, but here is the link:http://www.coffeecrone.com/images/2007_01/roaster.jpgI feel sorta like the trailer park roaster on this list, between the IR2 ">http://www.4cats2much.com/blogpics/2006_6/roaster.jpgHere is the link to the unbendy one:http://www.coffeecrone.com/images/2007_01/roaster.jpgI feel sorta like the trailer park roaster on this list, between the IR2 
and my definitely low class bread machine set-up, and I am sure one of 
the people who understand the science behind the mechanics of roasting 
has a *real* answer.
vicki
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

19) From: Vicki Smith
Jan 21, from Ray
"Even though they recommend the 4" flexible Aluminum vent tubing may be 
added to the roaster, it's a HUGE MISTAKE. It's a Monumental Air Dam, 
trust me! It would be better if you trim the excess length and extend 
the length completely rather than leave it compressed.
Serpentine bends and curves look neat, but they're Death to air flow. 
Try a roast without any duct added.
Hearthware supplies the roaster. If you can't supply the right power, 
you also have no complaint.
But it's Their Fault it won't run correctly with the wrong power. Pass 
the extension cord, please.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!"
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

20) From: Larry Johnson
I'm no expert on roast mechanics, but I do know that impeding the airflow of
a fan will decrease the load on the fan, possibly causing it to speed up
(actually depends on exactly what kind of motor is used, but most will speed
up).
Larry J
-- 
"I hear, and I forget.  I see, and I remember.  I do, and I
understand."    -- Confucius
On 1/24/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
.... All this is further confused my Hearthware saying that
<Snip>

21) From: Vicki Smith
In this context, Larry, faster=hotter. I should have been clearer about
this. The roast finishes faster, because the roaster is hotter. I am not
sure that fan speed is an issue, except if the difference is enough to
trigger the set points (assuming there really are some) for fan speed
changes.
v
On 1/24/07, Larry Johnson  wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Kris McN
Hey now, Vicki!  Nothing "low class" about my bread machine set-up and I
learned it all from you!  Low-tech maybe, but low class?  No way!  Classiest
set-up on the block.  Might as well be wearing a pearl choker when I roast.
Kris McN
On 1/24/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>

23) From: raymanowen
["...do not program below 360F for the first 3 minutes."]- Hearthware
instructions
[" I used the following profile and thinking; 3:00 @ 350F ..."]- user
reasoning
-- 
"Do not aim a firearm at anything you do not wish to shoot."-
Thompson/Center Arms Co.
"...but it wasn't loaded"

24) From: Vicki Smith
Check the two presets Hearthware programs into the machine as its 
presets, Ray.http://www.i-roast.com/pro_01_02_01.phpPreset 1 begins at 385, but preset 2 begins at 355 for six minutes. And, 
if the Hearthware staffer who advised a list member about high altitude 
roasting is actually correct, and the maximum temp for high altitude 
roasts should be 400 degrees, a setting under 360 seems pretty darn 
reasonable to me.
The question becomes what happens when you set a lower temp, given that 
(as far as we can tell) the roasters apparently always start with 3 
minutes at 360 (or is that 350--both have been said to be true), 
regardless of what you program.  Having worked with the roaster a bit, 
and noticing that at 3 minutes, you get a fan change--with it going 
lower, which supposedly increases the temp--having a temp set that is 
below 360 could affect whether or not the fan is in a mode designed to 
raise temps, or lower temps.
Hearthware gives conflicting information. It's very hard to figure this 
shtuff out, though it is a little easier to figure out what works for 
your own machine than it seems to be to figure out generalizable facts. 
Of course, for that to happen, you have to actually own one of the 
little buggers ;).
vicki
raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: raymanowen
"...you have to actually own one of the little buggers..."
Wannabe doesn't count. Then I reasoned, "My eagle flew away. No more new
stuff!"
It's just as well. From Oil Shale research to Screen printing curing dryers,
I've made most of my income controlling some form of heat and working with
all kinds of motors from very tiny to large.
My PID heat controller is self-organizing within the first heat cycle.
I don't know from Presets. I would probably Hate them almost as bad as
conflicting information from the manufacturer.
My Glorious People's Orange heat gun with switch was guaranteed for life. In
a script I don't understand, it said "Life" is defined as The Period of
Functionality. Who knew? After three weeks and five roasts, the Glorious
People's Orange heat gun with switch became an exciting handful of Blue
Fire, Smoke and Sparks.
Wagner to the rescue. Now I have an electric hotsie with a Two Year
warranty. I can strip paint, peel tile or roast coffee for Two Years. I
understand that.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich
On 1/24/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

26) From: Carole Zatz
Vicki,
I get error 404 (not found) when I look for your jpeg's ...
<Snip>
It's all so complicated when the fan speed is tied to the roast
temperature setting. You have two different things kicking in at the
same time and it's unclear (at least to me) what is really affecting
the roast most. I wish I had an unlimited amount of free beans (and
time) to test with! I always use the same weight of beans but of
course the volume changes because of bean size. I try to keep as many
things as I can constant (bean weight, voltage, ambient temperature).
Bean size, amount of chaff, dryness of beans are constantly changing,
tho. I may end up buying a digital thermocouple yet :)

27) From: miKe mcKoffee
Try again, they just worked for me. If they don't work at first hit refresh,
if still don't work for you it's likely a problem with your computer or ISP.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
 
<Snip>

28) From: Ross
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Hi Raymon and IR2 roasters,
I think many of us have lost confidence in the "Hearthware =
instructions".  My version CR4-02 has no mention of anything for the =
first 3 minutes.  I think the electronic interface upgrade was way ahead =
of the basic machine upgrade, although I have witnessed my fan speed =
changing exactly with a programmed change in temp so there is something =
going on there.  I think the problem is that without a temp input from =
the bean mass they had to assume  a "standard bean mass", and a standard =
voltage to adjust whatever they use for temp changes (fan, electronic =
voltage adjustment etc.) They do have an input for the temp of air going =
into the roast chamber so I would think that would take care of =
variations in ambient temperature within the range of heater capability. =
 Unfortunately there is no standard voltage or standard bean or bean =
mass and for those with vent hoods there is another wild card. To make =
matters worse if we try to take control via a voltage regulator the =
machine will fight us with it's own logic. I'm thinking the only way to =
take control of this beast is to install a thermocouple in the bean mass =
and experiment with ways to get what you want for a temp ramp.
For those of you intimate with the Hearthware staff please forward the =
following:
The single most important upgrade Hearthware could make to this machine =
would be to move the thermocouple or install an additional temp sensor =
to a more representative position for actual bean temp.  Second they =
could fix the crappy locking mechanism of the chaff collector assembly =
(top plastic part of the machine) to the bean holder (part with the =
handle).  Somewhere in the improvement process they could also have an =
engineer that actually knows what is going on have final edit on the =
manual.  Instead of whoever is doing it now.  
Thanks,
Ross

29) From: Carole Zatz
Thanks Ross, I finally beat my browser into coughing them up. I don't
know what's exactly wrong with it (Safari and Earthlink) but was
finally able to navigate to the photos. Cleaned cache (didn't help)
but just kept working in to it.
Regarding my most hoped for modification to the IR2 I'd have to say
the ability to change roasting temperature and/or time 'on the fly',
as it is running. Similar to the Gene Cafe. But, I'm sure that's
another whole level of complexity (and therefore price).

30) From: Carole Zatz
Vicki wrote:
<Snip>
Sure, I'll give no bend a try. Probably over the weekend.
Unfortunately, that was the last of my Ethiopian Ghimbi so I'll pick
another bean to use - maybe I'll redo the test with a bend as well -
just to cover the bases.


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