HomeRoast Digest


Topic: 2nd crack between Hot air and Stovetop (12 msgs / 351 lines)
1) From: Don Cummings
I'm trying to figure this out.  I roast using both a Whirly-Pop for 12 and
16 oz batches, and a unmodded Hot air popper for small batches.  With the
Whirly-Pop, I can track the progress of the roast on the thermal probe and =
I
always have a good idea where I stand. As it approaches 2 nd crack I know
and I am able to pull seconds before, just at, or just into 2nd.
This is where I get confused.  When my beans hit 2nd  (around 12 to 13
mins) in the Whirly (I mean just into) they come out darker than the beans
in the Hot air popper when 2nd is rolling (8 1/2 to 9 mins.)  (?) Any
ideas?  I've only hit a rolling 2nd a couple times with the Whirly and the
beans were very definitely French, (very smooth, dark, with splotches of
oil).  Last night I did a sample batch of Tom's Puro Scuro in the Presto.  =
I
stretched the roast out and let it go well into 2nd.  When I dumped it
definitely sounded like a fresh bowl of Rice Krispies.  No French though. N=
o
oil present, the beans were getting smooth but not fully so.  I classify it
as Full-City maybe +.  No complaints, just wondering.  These results have
been reproduced with multiple beans so I believe it is the roasting method
and not the beans themselves.
Ok, that said I have to take this opportunity to rave about the Puro Scuro.
I did my first taste at about 10 hours and was rewarded with a wonderful
cup.  This stuff is really good. It has a deep cocoa full-mouth flavor with
some background spice and a hint of brightness (from the relatively short
rest and it being FC instead of my target Vienna I'm sure.) There was also =
a
molasses-like finish that gave the cup a sweetness that I have not
experienced before.  I usually take my coffee with a touch of sugar but
needed none for this cup.
Tom, feel free to keep the recipe a secret but please make sure that you
have this blend in stock at least long enough for me to get my fiver.
Cheers,
Don
I woke up dreaming about roasting this morning (uh oh)

2) From: Brett Mason
Hi Don,
Try grinding the beans, and comparing the col9or of the ground coffee, not
the roasted coffee.
Here's what I am thinking:
  Whirley-Pop and Skillet roasting have a similar trait - heat is on only
one side of the bean, and the beans have to turn over a lot to get an even
roast.  Less easy to evenly penetrate the bean.
  Hot Air Popping is more of a "Total surround" method, where the heat work=
s
the bean from all sides.  More likely to evenly roast and evenly penetrate
the bean.
2nd Crack is caused by the internal structures of the bean fracturing.  Thi=
s
will occur in the popper when the bean is less roasted, than the same bean
in the whirley-pop (or skillet as I have roasted)
Maybe that helps?
Brett
On 4/18/06, Don Cummings  wrote:
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Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
   Zassman

3) From: Don Cummings
This is embarrassing but I have to correct myself.  It was NOT the Puro
Scuro blend that I sampled it was the Moka Kadir.  I also have the Puro but
haven't roasted it yet.
On 4/18/06, Don Cummings  wrote:
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4) From: Don Cummings
The question that arises:  In the hot air popper do I lend more credence to
the fact that 2nd crack was rolling and discount the finished color or vice
versa.  What I mean is that with the Moka Kadir the rolling 2nd says I
should be at at least Full City +/Vienna, the color says I am at Full City.
"2nd Crack is caused by the internal structures of the bean fracturing.
This will occur in the popper when the bean is less roasted, than the same
bean in the whirley-pop (or skillet as I have roasted)"
This statement makes sense to me and tells me I should go more by the
finished color and discount the fact of the second crack.
I have decided to mod my hot air popper with a temp probe. Not sure how to
do this though. I guess I drill a hole through the back aiming for the spot
where the bean mass is least mobile.
Don
On 4/18/06, Brett Mason  wrote:
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5) From: Demian Ebert
Afternoon-
I just hung the probe over the side of the chamber on my popper. A little
electrical tape held it in place just fine. No holes required.
As far as roast level, I pay more attention to the smell and the cracks tha=
n
to the bean color. If second is rolling you're at Vienna to Lt. French
regardless of how dark the beans look. Full City is before second crack has
started (although I cheat a couple of snaps in sometimes and still call it
FC).
Demian
On 4/18/06, Don Cummings  wrote:
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6) From: Michael Dhabolt
Don,
What type of temp probe are you considering?  What popper are you
going to monitor?  If you are planning on using a manual thermometer,
SM has a good, long probe thermometer at a good price and also has a
good page on different methods of monitoring poppers with it.  They
also have a good ThermoCouple thermometer for less than $30 and
modding the thermocouple to a sheathed probe is do-able.
Mike (just plain)

7) From: Rodney Stanton
I think the issue here is comparing convection and conduction roasting.   I think the best case is to have both.  The outerskin may be "cosmetically scorched" becuase the contact temperature is higher.  I try not to use sight as a guage for roasting. Smell tells me the most and sound tells me when I have gone too far.
How each home roaster roastshttp://sweetmarias.com/roastercomparisonchart.htmlRodney
Brett Mason  wrote: Hi Don,
  
 Try grinding the beans, and comparing the col9or of the ground coffee, not the roasted coffee.
  
 Here's what I am thinking:  
   Whirley-Pop and Skillet roasting have a similar trait - heat is on only one side of the bean, and the beans have to turn over a lot to get an even roast.  Less easy to evenly penetrate the bean.
   Hot Air Popping is more of a "Total surround" method, where the heat works the bean from all sides.  More likely to evenly roast and evenly penetrate the bean.
 
 2nd Crack is caused by the internal structures of the bean fracturing.  This will occur in the popper when the bean is less roasted, than the same bean in the whirley-pop (or skillet as I have roasted)
  
 Maybe that helps?
 Brett
 
 On 4/18/06, Don Cummings  wrote:   I'm trying to figure this out.  I roast using both a Whirly-Pop for 12 and 16 oz batches, and a unmodded Hot air popper for small batches.  With the Whirly-Pop, I can track the progress of the roast on the thermal probe and I always have a good idea where I stand. As it approaches 2 nd crack I know and I am able to pull seconds before, just at, or just into 2nd.  
  
 This is where I get confused.  When my beans hit 2nd  (around 12 to 13 mins) in the Whirly (I mean just into) they come out darker than the beans in the Hot air popper when 2nd is rolling (8 1/2 to 9 mins.)  (?) Any ideas?  I've only hit a rolling 2nd a couple times with the Whirly and the beans were very definitely French, (very smooth, dark, with splotches of oil).  Last night I did a sample batch of Tom's Puro Scuro in the Presto.  I stretched the roast out and let it go well into 2nd.  When I dumped it definitely sounded like a fresh bowl of Rice Krispies.  No French though. No oil present, the beans were getting smooth but not fully so.  I classify it as Full-City maybe +.  No complaints, just wondering.  These results have been reproduced with multiple beans so I believe it is the roasting method and not the beans themselves.  
  
 Ok, that said I have to take this opportunity to rave about the Puro Scuro.  I did my first taste at about 10 hours and was rewarded with a wonderful cup.  This stuff is really good. It has a deep cocoa full-mouth flavor with some background spice and a hint of brightness (from the relatively short rest and it being FC instead of my target Vienna I'm sure.) There was also a molasses-like finish that gave the cup a sweetness that I have not experienced before.  I usually take my coffee with a touch of sugar but needed none for this cup.  
  
 Tom, feel free to keep the recipe a secret but please make sure that you have this blend in stock at least long enough for me to get my fiver.
  
 Cheers,
  
 Don
  
 I woke up dreaming about roasting this morning (uh oh)
  
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
   Zassman  

8) From: b cook
It could also possibly be that the larger amount of beans in the whirly pop
isn't cooling fast enough and when all is said and done is actually roastin=
g
longer than the smaller amount of beans in the hot air popper that is
probably cooling faster.  Just a thought.
brad
On 4/18/06, Rodney Stanton  wrote:
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9) From: raymanowen
"When my beans hit 2nd  (around 12 to 13 mins) in the Whirly (I mean just
into) they come out darker than the beans in the Hot air popper when 2nd is
rolling (8 1/2 to 9 mins.)  (?) Any ideas? "
Yes, Don- Drink the one that tastes better. Continue roasting that way. If
you still have beans Go to Line 1.
You could probably a/b compare the appearance of the cups and match them to
the bean colors. Once your face has gotten outside of the coffee, it's all
flavor, flavor, and taste.
I made a misteak a little earlier. I thought I had slightly underroasted
this Lot 30 Horse about a week ago, and the first pot was lacking. For pot
(TV) #2, I secondary roasted 40g in the FR, and got one more Pop. Great
brew!
Tonight, the syndrome struck and I just tossed 35g of single roast  way . .
way . .  down   in The Grinder hopper, and reset it from 47 to 52 (coarser)
[bad thing, making two changes at once]. But, ACH, du LIEBER! Der Geschmack=
.
Mein Gott in Himmel! Very subdued- like a quiet earthquake- oops, sorry out
there!
But you know exactly what I mean with this Lot 30. It's Huge, and I even
made a third change from Pot #1: I poured ~2 cups (10oz) of boiling water
out of the teakettle into the closed TV cone basket. Then I turned on the
heat and opened the valve after 90 s.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
--
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Might=
y
Wichita WurliTzer- 1976

10) From: Michael Wade
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Don, I just bought those same two coffees.  I agree, the Moka Kadir is =
really something.  Every time I drink it I find something new.
I'm still working on finding the right roast for the Puro Scuro.  I'm =
not really a dark roast fan, so I'm in uncharted water with that one.
Michael Wade

11) From: Don Cummings
On 4/18/06, Brett Mason  wrote:
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Very good suggestion.  Tonight when I ground the Kadir sure enough it could
be classified a Vienna.  Also, just looking at the beans after they have no=
w
rested about 32 hours they ) they appear darker than last night when I
pulled them plus they now have hints of oil on the surface.
Interesting.  I now feel more confident that rolling 2nd (Whirly) = rolli=
ng
2nd (hot air.)  I was interested in this situation because if I find a roas=
t
that I like using the hot air popper for a small batch I want to get as
close as possible to the same roast when I do the larger batches in my
Whirly-Pop.
Cheers
Don

12) From: Don Cummings
On 4/19/06, Michael Wade  wrote:
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I bought the Scuro because I am a fan of dark roasts (within reason of
course and where appropriate -- I hate the charriness in the coffees at my
local 'gourmet' nationwide chain franchise.)  I will probably just trust
Tom's recommendation, bypass sampling on that one, and go for the large
batch done to FC+ /Vienna. I won't be doing it for at least a couple weeks
though so if you have any feedback or personal experience with it in the
meantime I'd like to hear about it.
Don


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