This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I recall someone on the list mentioning that they use a Zojirushi hot = water dispenser. I'm debating whether to replace my Black & Decker = kettle with an Ibis or try the Zo. What I want to ask is: How fast does it dispense? Is it practical for filling a 36 oz (3 mugs, = however many tasse that might be) french press? It seems that it would make a whole lot more sense to dispense water = already at the exact brew temp instead of heating it to a boil and then = trying to cool it down... Kind of a Homer Simpson observation, I know, = but how many of us are doing exactly that? Michael "blessed with a wife who likes the smell of roast smoke" Wade
I am curious about this as well. I would like to get a water kettle for pour over, FP, AP. Have been debating between the Zor and the Ibis. Seems that the Ibis would be better for pour over though. The SM page for the Ibis states that it brings water to "near boil" quickly and as follows: So I dunno which to go with either. SM: "By the time you take the Ibis Carafe off the base and are ready to pour, I think your temperature will be good." On 5/14/06, Michael Wade wrote: <Snip> e <Snip> ut <Snip>
Considering that water boils at 212 at the max temp. (ok let's not get into superheating etc etc) NORMAL water... and the ideal brew temp is what 195 to 205 Degrees?. How much of a difference does 7 degrees "too hot" really make? Given that, Id think that by the time you remove the water from the heat source, pour it into your brewing device etc it's probably cooled down close enough to 205 anyways. Would bringing water to just the threshold of boiling and then using it maybe a minute later be that big of a negative alteration in the taste? Im curious. Aaron
On 5/14/06, Aaron wrote: <Snip> Aaron, I don't have a chemical explanation for it, but I can say that with tea, it makes a difference. For tea--say black tea-- you want it right off a rigorous boil. Black oolongs range from 180-190F, green oolongs 170-180F, greens down to 160F and whites even lower at times.. My point is that it seems to make a difference--even a few degrees-- what the temperatures are for brewing devices. My bet is that 12 degrees off boiling makes a difference. I'm also wondering if different coffees would benefit from lower or higher temperature brewing, something that I'm not sure people have really explored much. The best place to experiment would probably be in a french press... -- Steven Hay hay.steve -AT- gmail.com Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."
On 5/14/06, Steve Hay wrote: <Snip> r <Snip> red <Snip> . <Snip> Actually I've been playing with the effects of temp on different coffees over the past week or so since I ordered my Aeropress. The recommended bre= w temp on that is actually 175. I've only tested two different ones at this point but one notable thing that I've found is that with a slighter cooler temp (190) I was able to tame the roast flavor on a roast of mine that was done darker than I liked. I have also noted that the high end notes on an Ethiopian were slightly muted. My working hypothesis is that a lower brewing temp emphasizes the tenor and bass notes of a coffee and the higher brew temps will help on the high end. This has actually been discussed in quite a bit of detail on CG ( on the really big Aeropress thread). Don
That thread is a beast. I dare you to jump in there and say "does this mak= e espresso?" :) For the OP, I just noticed on Ebay that there are some other "brands" that look just like the Zor, only for much less moo-lah. I don't know if they have the three temp options though. I am just about settled on the Bodum Ibis myself. It's much cheaper than the Zor and probably a little better quality than other kettles I might pic= k up at wal mart or target (although I might go there and see if they carry this Bodum, I have noticed other Bodum products in said stores). Right now I am just nuking water in a glass container in the microwave. On 5/14/06, Don Cummings wrote: <Snip> lly <Snip> nch <Snip> rew <Snip> s <Snip> r <Snip> s <Snip> h <Snip> n <Snip>
On 5/14/06, James House wrote: <Snip> :) LOL You have obviously been there. Better yet, just comment on how it makes better espresso than the machine you spent 20 times as much on. Someone posted an animation in the middle of the thread of someone beating = a dead horse with a stick. Very funny (and apt) but I did get a lot out of the temp discussions. <Snip> Have you been noticing excessive bloom? That is the problem I ran into the one and only time I nuked it. The air in the water is not released like in a kettle until you add it to the grounds. Don
Steve knowing nothing about teas, I have to push the I believe button on what you said but it makes perfect sense that folks need different temps for different teas, just like we need different temps to roast different coffee's. On the french press, good idea there, or a swiss gold. Something that will 'do it' fairly quickly and the temp won't alter that much and IS controllable to begin with to compare... I might try something here..... brew up 5 cups of identical coffee, identical grind, identical weights in swiss golds but offset the initial pour in temp of the water by 4 degrees each cup 212, 208, 204, 200, 196 Degrees F and see if I can really taste any difference. 5 cups is a LOT of coffee for one person to drink in a morning and Ill be bouncing off the walls like a Ritalyn child so IF I decide to do this, Id do a different coffee each week, so we can get a wider range of types of beans for hopefully a more accurate input overall. Thank you for the idea, ill consider the ramifications of how I want and if I want to attempt this or not Aaron
Don, does it actually alter the taste of the coffee overall to brew it hotter/cooler, or is it the well.. natural progression of taste change as the temp cools. ie this coffee will taste this way at 195, taste that way at 180 etc taste another way at 165 bla bla... and you are just hitting the 'lower spots' and bypassing the higher temp tastes?
It was written Have you been noticing excessive bloom? That is the problem I ran into the one and only time I nuked it. The air in the water is not released like in a kettle until you add it to the grounds. ==== so you throw a few grounds into the water before you put it in your brewer and wait a few seconds. or better yet, heat it up with a few grounds in it so the air bubbles have something to coalesce on and make their way out.... Aaron
"The air in the water is not released..." - ? That horse has long since been put to rest and abandoned by the buzzards. Have you been noticing excessive bloom? That is the problem I ran into the <Snip> Actually, it was superheated in the micro and boiled like crazy when disturbed by pouring. For some excitement, boil a glass of distilled H2O in the micro. I apologize. It wouldn't be funny- Don't. -ro
On |May 14, at 11:26 PM|May 14, Aaron wrote: <Snip> I learned (again) today that the temperature of the water definitely affects the coffee, even within a very few degrees. I was making some Matadakad to take to work and walked out of the room while the lower part of my Yama was going; when I came back, it was already mildly boiling. Since I was short on time, I didn't start over and instead just stuck on the top part. I let it go the requisite 3 minutes, but when it was done, it had that sharp, overextracted taste to it--the water was simply too hot. It wasn't so severely unpleasant that I abandoned the coffee, but once again, I learned that the temperature tolerance for excellent coffee is pretty narrow. Scot "but I tolerated the coffee, given enough half and half" Murphy ----------- "The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing." --JOHN ADAMS
Before I put my only thermocouple semi-permanently into my iR2 I used it regularly to measure the water temp for brewing. It was surprising how long it took for the temperature to drop to 200 degrees. The primary variable is the thermal mass, the amount of water in the kettle. It was also surprising how much cooling effect it had to blow into the kettle just enough to exchange the volume of air in the kettle. (It was also surprising how effectively this process would completely fog my eyeglasses...) Boiling only enough for one cup (12 oz) of coffee, just a couple of air exchanges would usually get the water temp close to brewing range. With enough water for 2 or 3 cups it took correspondingly more air exchanges, but it is surprising how much heat is absorbed into the air in the kettle, and how quickly the process works. Now I'm guessing how many times to blow into the thing while wondering, like you are, just how foolish this all might be. I did at least come up with a bent straw that allows me to cool the kettle without feeling foolish and going blind at the same time. So I'd still like to hear from anyone who has a Zojirushi water dispenser. Michael
On 5/15/06, Aaron wrote: <Snip> I did realize that this would work but in the meantime I cleaned up my old teakettle and am actually able to hit temp for a FP pot in less time than i= t takes the micro to do it. "Don, does it actually alter the taste of the coffee overall to brew it hotter/cooler, or is it the well.. natural progression of taste change as the temp cools. ie this coffee will taste this way at 195, taste that way at 180 etc taste another way at 165 bla bla... and you are just hitting the 'lower spots' and bypassing the higher temp tastes?" The taste is altered because it is being extracted to differing degrees at the different brew temps. I have rarely wanted to remove high end notes from coffee so this tactic is not of much use there but there have been occasions when I wished to tone down some of the dark roasty taste in a cup. Lowering brew temp is effective for this as opposed to drinking the overroasted coffee at a lower temp. The roast taste stays dominant through the cooling of the cup in the latter case. I think you'll find when you do your flight of cups that the brew temp has = a dramatic effect on the flavor of the bean. I always suspected as much when I read how important brew temp was. What I never thought about was the fac= t that reduced extraction through lower brew temp might actually enhance the flavor in some circumstances. A questions that arises naturally out of this is 'would you get the same effect of lowering brew temp to reduce extraction as you would from keeping temp constant but reducing steep time.' I think not. I think that this is more a matter of what elements of the coffee bean solubolize at what temp. Anyway, I could be wrong and YMMV and all of those disclaimers but one thin= g is for sure. I am having a ball exploring the possibilities. Don
On 5/15/06, raymanowen wrote: <Snip> o <Snip> Once again Ray I am really not sure what you are saying but for the parts I do get: "That horse has long since been put to rest and abandoned by the buzzards." What horse??? "Actually, it was superheated in the micro and boiled like crazy when disturbed by pouring." If you are referring to my experience, no. The temp was 204 when I poured. No it was just the air suspended in the water that was released when it hit the grounds. It was no big deal, it is just more bloom then when I pour at the same temp from a kettle. "For some excitement, boil a glass of distilled H2O in the micro." Yea Ray, Well aware of "exploding water" and of course, being a guy I had t= o try it out for myself when I learned about it back in '82. Messy but gratifying. Don
Don, <Snip> same effect of lowering brew temp to reduce extraction as you would from keeping temp constant but reducing steep time.' I think not.< I will whole heartedly agree. I am not a brewed coffee drinker, I usually just drink espresso. I don't see any reason why the extraction process should magically produce new rules of the road when analysed for brewed coffee rather than espresso. The sweet spots for many espresso blends and SOs are frequently as narrow as 1° to 2° F and IMHO, changing the timing of the pull produces an entirely different set of taste artifacts than changing the temp. Mike (just plain)
Appreciate the chuckle Michael. I can really picture you standing there with classically fogged glasses. For whatever reason, my kettle begins rumbling almost as soon as I turn on the heat. The rumbling grows louder until about 190 and then it ebbs until just before boiling when there is almost no sound. Regardless of water amount. Pretty handy for tracking temp and pulling at the right moment.
On 5/15/06, Aaron wrote: <Snip> Not an attempt to get you more jacked up on coffee here, but you may also want to adjust the time. Also perhaps a wider range of temperature? I've heard some people actually recommend 180F for coffee, although none of them seem to be around this forum.. heh :) Anyways, it could be--for something like an FP where you have control over brew/steep times, a longer steep at lower temps might tone down an overly bright coffee... What about cupping it at different temps? Cupping doses are small, no? Just some thoughts.. Please let us/me know how the experiment goes.. I might join you once I ge= t my SC/TO up and running (which may be a bit, as I am shopping for a TO in thrift stores if possible to try to save the $35 for a new one.) -- Steven Hay hay.steve -AT- gmail.com Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."
All this talk of brewing temps and how to set the water at the correct temp in the kettle, has me wondering something else; Have any of you that measure water temps also measured the cooling effect of a french press? Some on the list pre-heat their FP's, but if one doesn't, wouldn't that become a huge variable? peter schmidt <Snip> just <Snip> surprising <Snip> but <Snip> like <Snip> a <Snip> the <Snip> to <Snip> unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. The 4L Zojrushi uses about the same amount of electricity as a 55W bulb, you can adjust the temp from 175 to 204. It dispenses rapidly and the refill temp comes up within 5 minutes. I use mine for the Chemex and general hot water in the kitchen. I dispense into a Pyrex measuring cup and pour over, there is a little loss of heat in the transfer, you could heat the measuring cup with a bit of water prior to pouring over coffee. Seems to work well. From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of James House Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:16 PM To: homeroast Subject: Re: +Zojirushi Hot Water Dispenser I am curious about this as well. I would like to get a water kettle for pour over, FP, AP. Have been debating between the Zor and the Ibis. Seems that the Ibis would be better for pour over though. The SM page for the Ibis states that it brings water to "near boil" quickly and as follows: So I dunno which to go with either. SM: "By the time you take the Ibis Carafe off the base and are ready to pour, I think your temperature will be good." On 5/14/06, Michael Wade > wrote: I recall someone on the list mentioning that they use a Zojirushi hot water dispenser. I'm debating whether to replace my Black & Decker kettle with an Ibis or try the Zo. What I want to ask is: How fast does it dispense? Is it practical for filling a 36 oz (3 mugs, however many tasse that might be) french press? It seems that it would make a whole lot more sense to dispense water already at the exact brew temp instead of heating it to a boil and then trying to cool it down... Kind of a Homer Simpson observation, I know, but how many of us are doing exactly that? Michael "blessed with a wife who likes the smell of roast smoke" Wade
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Don, I've noticed that effect, and used it occasionally but I hadn't = "calibrated" it, so I relegated it to not much better than a WAG. Thanks for the useful information on the effects of water temp. I went straight out to the kitchen and put it to use. I had roasted an = El Sal CoE using a stretch profile that I'm experimenting with in the = iR2 and it had a decidely bitter overtone and aftertaste. I dug out a = thermocouple meat thermometer, cooled the brew water to exactly 195 = before pouring into the FP and voila! I love having new tools in my toolbox. Michael
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. For me it's no doubt a factor, but not a variable, since I brew = consistently in a FP. Michael
On 5/15/06, Michael Wade wrote: <Snip> This was the exact phrase that when through my mind while I enjoyed the "accidental" French that was previously pretty much undrinkable to me. As far as the WAG is concerned I still pop an insta-read in the spout to hi= t exact targets Don
Blue Man Group might have use of you for musical purposes (think jug-blowin= g ;-) On 5/15/06, Michael Wade wrote: <Snip> d <Snip> . <Snip> -- Scott
Yes. You can often nail it within a couple degrees on sound alone. I really enjoy that. We listen for cracks when roasting, the rumbling when brewing, and our friends "Aaaahh!" when sipping. ;-) On 5/15/06, Don Cummings wrote: <Snip> n <Snip> l <Snip> -- Scott
Yes I get some very annoying killer bloom when I pour from a nuked pyrex glass measuring cup. On 5/14/06, Don Cummings wrote: <Snip> t <Snip> g <Snip> of <Snip> ike <Snip>
On 5/15/06, Scott Marquardt wrote: <Snip> :) And a nice progression of sounds they are too!
As opposed to "Aaaugh!" LOL Which comes from drinking "UGH", of course. On 5/15/06, Don Cummings wrote: <Snip> n <Snip> -- Scott
We have a Zor and it works fine for single cups or the AeroPress. That's really its intended use, I think - very popular in Asian households for tha= t quick cup or small pot of tea. Reboil is an easy 1-button thing. However, it isn't great for more than a cup or two at a time - takes quite a while t= o boil and a lot of pumping to get, say, a liter of water out. The Bodum pot= s are a better bet for large pour-over applications, IMO. Larry On 5/14/06, Michael Wade wrote: <Snip> d <Snip> . <Snip>
That's kinda along the lines I was thinking Larry, although I wasn't aware of the boil time on the Zors. I can microwave a cup or two of water for 3 minutes and have it at 180-195 for that single/double in my AP and FP. However for my Yama and future Chemex, I need more hot water. On 5/15/06, Larry English wrote: <Snip> hat <Snip> r, <Snip> to <Snip> ots <Snip> t <Snip> w <Snip> s <Snip> h <Snip> , <Snip> d <Snip> s <Snip>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Larry, thanks for the reply. What model do you have? Michael
It's an older one, Michael - CWLC-822, 2.2 liter capacity. It is similar t= o the current model CW-PZC22, whose PDF manual is at http://www.zojirushi.com/servicesupport/manuals/manual_pdf/cw-pzc.pdfLarry On 5/15/06, Michael Wade wrote: <Snip> hat <Snip> r, <Snip> to <Snip> ots <Snip> t <Snip> w <Snip> s <Snip> h <Snip> , <Snip> d <Snip> s <Snip>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Thanks! I caught that you mentioned "pumping" and I checked the user's = manual on the newer ones (panoramic? - I think) and they seem to have = electric pumps. I had a Homer Simpson moment when one responder pointed out that I could = always prewarm a big pyrex measuring cup and use that to fast-fill the = french press... (Duh) Thanks again for your help, Michael
Don, me, too- "...I had to try it out for myself." I remember a lab experiment in Physics, I think. We heated 500cc each of dist H2O side by side in two 1.5L Florence Flasks. One flask had a piece of gravel in it, nothing but water in the other. The rock started putting out bubbles and that flask's water temperature ris= e was a little slower after that until they were both boiling vigorously. I don't remember the partial pressures of the different gas components of air, but they're proportional to the absolute temperature so they come out of the solvent water as it's being heated up. The horse is the one that fell over and was properly buried after it died months ago when this topic was thoroughly discussed. 204 degree F water in Denver town is boiling pretty vigorously if it's bein= g heated. Erroneous calibration is a possibility in all but Mercury thermometers. Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! Got Grinder?
I have 'Guy' ears. When they hear the phrase "Don't try this at home" it is translated as "aw, man you gotta try this." :) For that reason I have tried the Pop Tart Flame thrower, the Tennis Ball cannon, and the Exploding Water. For the Exploding Water I heated about 1 1/2 cups of DH2O for 5 mins in my microwave and then sprinkled salt into it. After the reaction there was maybe 1/4 cup of water left in the pyrex cup. On 5/16/06, raymanowen wrote: <Snip> ly. <Snip> t <Snip> -- Don