HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Endng the roast > RE: +Roast levels: Tom's temps (12 msgs / 449 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
raymanowen
	Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 6:44 PM
	
<Snip>
the same roaster, same quantity and same beans. It may be that Tom could
step up to any drum roaster and create a mouth-watering, cuppers' dream
roast. 
	
<Snip>
following the numbers only? I'm sure there are some that could, indeed. Then
there's the rest of us...
	
<Snip>
	-- 
I've yet to see anyone roasting on a Probat or similar end the roast based
on temp. Sure they use temp readings for adjusting flame etc during the
roast, and as an additional indication to sound and smell when start really
paying close attention, but it's primarily the smell and look of the beans
pulled with the tryer that tells them when to dump and cool the roast. Even
for a rank amateur like me the smell of the roast is a huge determining
factor on when I actually stop the roast even though I roast tracking and
profile time over temp.
On the other hand ending the roast strictly at a relative temp can be a good
start for a beginner!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Pacific Northwest Gathering IVhttp://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mdmint/pnwgIV.htmURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

2) From: Scott Marquardt
Whether one ends the roast based on temp or not, profile roasting assumes
control over when the beans are at a given temperature. Yes, the temp is
just a number -- it doesn't need to be accurate for profiling to work.
However, the system absolutely needs to be referenced -- and I can't be
apologetic for supposing that a great reference for any system is accurate
bean temperature.
IMO, one of the reasons this concern isn't as often respected in amateur
circles as it is, is simple because in many roast configurations, it's an
intractable problem.
- Scott
On 6/18/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: miKe mcKoffee
Huh?  Who asked anyone to apologize for anything? As far as temps being
referenced, multiple times the last few days I've mentioned referencing
typical start of 1st and start of 2nd, even specifically asked for them when
asked about a profile. Sure the actual bean temp itself would be ideal, yet
it's virtually impossible to attain (at least affordably) therefore
approximations and comparisons need to be used. Like I also said, since we
knew Jim's Fresh Roast measured bean temps were consistently 10f lower than
my Rosto measured bean temps we could converse intelligently about
profiling, duplicating each other's profiles taking into account our temp
measuring offsets.
You are welcome to your opinion that determining and or approximating bean
temperature during the roast isn't a "respected" concern in amateur roasting
circles, but based on 5&1/2 years home roasting taking part in countless
conversations on & offline with other amateur home roasters about this very
issue I'd not agree it's not a respected concern.
None the less I'll stand by my stating temperature is not the determining
end of roast factor, which I should further qualify adding in quality
Artisanal roasting. Sure specific temperatures are used in automated
roasting operations that can be run by any untrained person. But even these
automated systems that could be run by monkeys implement profiles that were
developed by some Roast Master using his senses of smell, sight & hearing.
Bottom line it's all about what's in the cup. If you like what's in yours
that's what counts.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Pacific Northwest Gathering IVhttp://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mdmint/pnwgIV.htmURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Scott Marquardt
	Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:29 PM
	
	Whether one ends the roast based on temp or not, profile roasting
assumes control over when the beans are at a given temperature. Yes, the
temp is just a number -- it doesn't need to be accurate for profiling to
work. However, the system absolutely needs to be referenced -- and I can't
be apologetic for supposing that a great reference for any system is
accurate bean temperature. 
	 
	IMO, one of the reasons this concern isn't as often respected in
amateur circles as it is, is simple because in many roast configurations,
it's an intractable problem.
	 
	- Scott
	On 6/18/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
		
		       From: homeroast-admin
		[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
		raymanowen  
		       Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 6:44 PM
		
		> The numbers are good only when the same person repeats the
same process-
		the same roaster, same quantity and same beans. It may be
that Tom could
		step up to any drum roaster and create a mouth-watering,
cuppers' dream 
		roast.
		
		> Could a home roaster step up to the same roaster and
achieve the same,
		following the numbers only? I'm sure there are some that
could, indeed. Then
		there's the rest of us...
		
		> Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! 
		       --
		
		I've yet to see anyone roasting on a Probat or similar end
the roast based
		on temp. Sure they use temp readings for adjusting flame etc
during the
		roast, and as an additional indication to sound and smell
when start really 
		paying close attention, but it's primarily the smell and
look of the beans
		pulled with the tryer that tells them when to dump and cool
the roast. Even
		for a rank amateur like me the smell of the roast is a huge
determining 
		factor on when I actually stop the roast even though I roast
tracking and
		profile time over temp.
		
		On the other hand ending the roast strictly at a relative
temp can be a good
		start for a beginner!
		
		Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
		Pacific Northwest Gathering IV
	http://home.comcast.net/~mdmint/pnwgIV.htm		
		URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: 
	http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm		Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path.
To know I must
		first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each
Personal enlightenment 
		found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who
have gone before.

4) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
Well, this monkey* (myself) uses temperature (and ramp) as governing
parameters in not only ending the roast but as a guide through several
waypoints along the profile. It is a carryover from my days as a chemical
process engineer. Using temperature waypoints is another way to judge roast
progress if the beans are not visible. The deviation from expected
temperature is useful for correcting the heat input or changing the finish
temperature. I often dry the beans so much that there are no pops to signify
first crack, so temperature is the only reference point. I often change the
finish temperature and/or ramp by one or two degrees on subsequent roasts if
I feel the sweetspot was missed or if I want a slightly different cup.
*Humans are the "third chimpanzee" in evolutionary terms.
--

5) From: Tom Bellhouse
Interjecting a note here:  Has anybody considered that not all the beans
are roasted to the same degree at finish, no matter where you stop the
process?  My guess is that "doneness" is normally distributed, with both
over-roasted and under-roasted beans making up the tails of the
distribution.  If that's the case, then listening for "the beginnings of
second crack" would make the average bean stop well short of second.
I find that Harrar #19 from Tom roasts very non-homogeneously sp?).
That worried me for a while, but now I accept it as a part of the Coffee
God's plan.  I get the varietal flavors from the lighter beans and a
good "bass note" from the darker beans.  Maybe non-uniform roasts are
good?  I'm thinking that different roasting methods (drum, HG/DB, etc.)
probably produce different distributions of bean doneness, with
differing flavors as a result.  That gets added to the plethora of other
factors already in play, probably making roasting by profile pretty
meaningless from one method, or machine, to another.
Thoughts?
Tom in GA

6) From: Scott Marquardt
Good reminders all. But I wouldn't say meaningless. It's more like, no
matter how good your English, a foreigner with poor English skills is only
going to understand some of what you're saying -- but that doesn't mean you
should abandon all efforts to communicate. Likewise, the profile roasting is
inherently statistical, since we're not measuring individual beans anyway.
But it's how you center that distribution. Your standard deviation does, as
you note, make things interesting.
On 6/19/06, Tom Bellhouse  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
As a rule, longer profiles tend to limit the over/under roast.
<Snip>
I believe there is a major difference between air and drum roasters, but why
is unclear to me. My best hot air popper roasts are less than 3 minutes, but
my best drum roasts range from 12 to 30 minutes. I really do need to return
to poppers for a while to solve this puzzle.
--

8) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
<Snip>
Agreed. Dynamically manually changing heat and or air flow based on temp
feedback during the roast exactly how I roast. However, this is not a 100%
automated set it and forget it computer controlled roast method I was
referring to "monkeys" operating like a big commercial operation. Here the
computer controls are receiving the temp(s) feedback reading and the
automated system doing the adjusting, no human or monkey intervention
required. Some have even taken this fully automated approach with their home
roasting modifications with PID or computer software setups monitoring and
controlling the roast completely eliminating the need for human
intervention. And even here IIRC most home roasters who've gone fully
automated choose to end their roasts based human intervention. If temp the
only end of roast factor, no human intervention would be required.
I'm also not saying if you happen to end your roasts based strictly on temp
it's right or wrong! Of course, your method of changing an end of roast temp
point is based on human feedback from a previous roast, no PID or computer
decided that for you! Similarly I previously mentioned the 100% fully
automated monkey run commercial operations employ profiles created by a
Roast Master, not the person (monkey;-) standing by baby sitting the
equipment.
I'm also not saying home roaster systems capable of fully automating highly
accurate repeatable profiles , profiles of their design and choosing, are
anything less than spectacular achievements highly likely more capapble of
producing the exact same roast of a given bean time after time.
But as I've seen all Artisan roasters do, I now choose to use smell as the
final determining factor when to end my roasts, not just the temp reading.
This of course is a learned skill which I've barely begun to learn 5&1/2
years into the process...
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Pacific Northwest Gathering IVhttp://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mdmint/pnwgIV.htmURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

9) From: Scott Marquardt
I recall when I worked in industry as a youth, painting in a spray booth.
Our site never had something we coveted -- the robotic system that allows an
expert to paint one unit, programming the 'bot, after which the bot will
paint every future unit exactly the same way. I always wondered how much the
expert got paid for the single job -- and whether s/he'd get any royalties
on the bot's future work.   ;-)
I view automation similarly. Human expertise determines a profile, and our
mechanical slaves dutifully execute the orders. This is a very capitalist
outlook, I know -- but for the small roaster who wouldn't have employees,
the ability to outsource such work is as valuable -- possibly moreso -- as
it is for the big operations.
For my part, I suspect I'll be working on a set of controls for gas grills
during the next several months. Not sure. Not sure how inexpensively they
can be made, either.
- S
On 6/19/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
Exactly, which is why I consider it a very good beginner's method of
roasting greens you don't want to destroy the varietal characteristics!
 
<Snip>
Mélange roasting, usually the most complex cup. A few years ago 4 =
sometimes
5 of us were exchanging roasts of the same bean, primary intent to =
compare
various roasting methods and how it affected the roast. While on most of =
the
exchanges our "goal" was to roast the same final degree of roast, it was
seldom achieved! Invaribly after comparing the individual roasts the =
"best"
most dynamic complex cup was produced after dumping together the remains =
of
the not only varying degrees of roast but different roast methods. Kind =
of a
super melange.
<Snip>
Yes and no. Definitely some roast methods roast more evenly than others =
and
some roast methods lend themselves to actual controlled profiling better
than others. For example when I open wok or frypan roast it is always a
natural resulting melange while controlled Rosto roasting can be a very =
even
roast or I can achieve limited melange in a single batch by varying bean
flow rate. FWIW my norm has become to use a very very slow bean movement
which does result in minor melange effect. Matching profiles between
different types of roaster wise I remember when the HotTop first came =
out
and it's roast profile graph found and posted. "The Fresh Roast Master
Profiler" (Jim Schulman) calibrated his dual boost variable voltage =
manually
controlled Fresh Roast to create a profile matching the HotTop profile =
at
every stage of the roast. Blind cuppings with multiple tasters ensued. =
IIRC
the results while not definitive were quite comparable between the two
totally different roasting applicances.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Pacific Northwest Gathering IVhttp://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I =">http://home.comcast.net/~mdmint/pnwgIV.htmURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I =
must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal =
enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone =
before.

11) From: Mike Chester
Mélange roasting, usually the most complex cup. A few years ago 4 sometimes
5 of us were exchanging roasts of the same bean, primary intent to compare
various roasting methods and how it affected the roast. While on most of the
exchanges our "goal" was to roast the same final degree of roast, it was
seldom achieved! Invaribly after comparing the individual roasts the "best"
most dynamic complex cup was produced after dumping together the remains of
the not only varying degrees of roast but different roast methods. Kind of a
super melange.
I have tried roasting the same bean in my Hottop and my IR-2 to get 
different characteristics and mixing them together.  I have not achieved 
greatness that way, but I do get a different profile than either single 
method.  For most beans, I prefer the Hottop, but there a few, Kona being 
one, that taste better to me roasted in the IR-2.  I also tried making a 
Moka-Java blend with Horse 30 in the Hottop and Java Prince in the IR-2.  It 
had almost too much flavor.  The IR-2 gives the Prince some bright notes 
that are muted out in the HT.  Anyway, I liked those heavier coffees more in 
the cold weather.  Since it got warm, I have been moving towards brighter, 
lighter bodied coffees like Central and South Americans.  It is funny how 
weather affects one's taste.
Mike Chester

12) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
On 6/19/06, Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>
A little off the topic of this particular thread, but here's a question I've
been asking for some time with no response.  Maybe you have some thoughts:
Is there a reason for roasting more than 14 minutes (+ or -) OTHER THAN that
dictated by the limits of roasting method?
-- 
Martin
Heat + Beans
    all the rest is commentary


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