HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Why greater than 14min roasts> RE: Endng the roast > RE: +Roast levels: Tom's temps (10 msgs / 379 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
I can think of number of reasons. Longer roasts can be used to tame acidity,
gaining more body, especially often important for roasts targeted for
espresso shots. With the Rosto, which roasts somewhat like a combination air
roaster and drum roaster, a specific case where more than 14 minutes was
needed to tame acridity comes to mind. Note the "r", acrid being very
different than acidity in coffee. Some coffees can have a biting
constricting back of the throat effect. I first really became aware of this
during our Kenya Mika roast exchange in '03. My twelve minute FC roast,
while cupping well for most, had an acrid effect highly noticeable to Jim
(Schulman). Thinking about what I was tasting and how it affected my throat
I then noticed it too. I did another Mika roast to the same FC slowing the
profile to 14min. Acridity reduced but still there. Mapped a 16min FC
profile and tried another batch, acridity gone while Mika's fantastic
acidity intact, confirmed because I sent half the 16min batch to Jim! 
miKe
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Heat + Beans
--all the rest is commentary
	Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 1:11 PM
	
	A little off the topic of this particular thread, but here's a
question I've been asking for some time with no response.  Maybe you have
some thoughts: 
	
	Is there a reason for roasting more than 14 minutes (+ or -) OTHER
THAN that dictated by the limits of roasting method?  
	
	-- 
	
	Martin
	Heat + Beans
	    all the rest is commentary

2) From: Steve Hay
On 6/19/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
I might be mistaking the flavor here, but I'm wondering if this is the
'Black Tea' flavor Tom writes about with some of his coffees...  I make this
remark because there have been a few described this way which ended up with
some acidity that I simple have not enjoyed similar to oversteeped Lipton
yellow label.
Is the acrid flavor you're talking about a sour acridity?  Being in general
a dork I always think of the smell of an electrical fire when I hear the
word 'acrid'.  Probably due to some Pavlovian response beaten into me while
in the Navy.  Damnit I'm still in the Navy.  Oh well.
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

3) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
Here's some background on why I asked the (14 + or -) question.  With my
HG/DB roasts, also a combo of air and drum,  length of roast up to 14
minutes is a noticeable variable.  For the most part I avoid going beyond 12
minutes though I've gone far longer when I've challenged myself to see just
how big a batch I could accomplish.  But beyond 12, for me gets risky (and
boring!).  I can see 14 or 16 if I have to.  I was really asking about
actual positive benefits ---  affirmative reasons for going to longer roasts
as a matter of cupping preference.  Eliminating an acrid taste seems to be
responding to a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place,
and I wonder if something else in the profile might not have taken care of
that.  I suppose the difference is whether the 16 minutes produced a
memorable roast that you'd repeat (with that crop) if you could, or if you
simply muted some taint (burned off? developed out?).  And then, I note that
this (most recent case?) happened in 03.  Finally, the 16 minute roast was
within the range of the "upper limit" of my question.  So you didn't really
answer the question.  :o).    Though what you wrote does seem relevant.
So, do you suppose it is fair to say that until someone reports otherwise
(and offers a decent shot at the science), we know of no benefit to roasts
that routinely extend past 14 to 16 minutes"
Martin
On 6/19/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Martin
Heat + Beans
    all the rest is commentary

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Steve Hay
	Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 8:04 PM
	
	On 6/19/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
	
		roaster and drum roaster, a specific case where more than 14
minutes was
		needed to tame acridity comes to mind. Note the "r", acrid
being very
		different than acidity in coffee. Some coffees can have a
biting 
		constricting back of the throat effect. I first really
became aware of this
		
<Snip>
the 'Black Tea' flavor Tom writes about with some of his coffees...  I make
this remark because there have been a few described this way which ended up
with some acidity that I simple have not enjoyed similar to oversteeped
Lipton yellow label. 
	
<Snip>
general a dork I always think of the smell of an electrical fire when I hear
the word 'acrid'.  Probably due to some Pavlovian response beaten into me
while in the Navy.  Damnit I'm still in the Navy.  Oh well. 
	
	-- 
<Snip>
	
I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I was referring more to an
acrid bite or stinging sensation, physical sensation in the throat not an
acrid or sour flavor. It's further back in the throat than sour is sensed
too I'm fairly certain. It's not something I've encountered often with
coffees, and that Kenya Mika '03 was the most pronounced I've encountered.
miKe

5) From: miKe mcKoffee
We (or you) can say anything about what is the best way to roast their
coffee! Whether one person loves their coffee routinely going 25 minute
roasts and you prefer your roasts in 12 minute range is irrelevant, you
would both be right. But I know what you mean and are getting at. But it's
not as simple as a given length of roast time. And mucho subjective. If
someone really doesn't like bright coffees at all but rather always wants as
much body and deep tones as possible longer than 14 minutes might be
required to satisfy their taste preference, especially with an air roaster.
Since the last 4 years Rosto profiling I've played with Rosto profiles as
long as 20 minutes, and primarily use profiles in the 10 to 15 minute range,
generally speaking for my tastes I don't see benefits only a negative effect
of overly flat roasts from profiles much longer than 14 minutes, generally
speaking. Or something like that. And of course YMMV...
Now, to be getting picking, you didn't specify 14 + or - "2min" you simply
specified + or - with no qualifying so how was I to know 16 minutes was in
your accepted upper range!!! 2 minutes additional time some roasts can be
the difference between excellence and charcoal;-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Pacific Northwest Gathering IVhttp://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mdmint/pnwgIV.htmURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Heat + Beans
--all the rest is commentary
	Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 9:27 PM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: Re: Why greater than 14min roasts> RE: Endng the roast >
RE: +Roast levels: Tom's temps
	
	Here's some background on why I asked the (14 + or -) question.
With my HG/DB roasts, also a combo of air and drum,  length of roast up to
14 minutes is a noticeable variable.  For the most part I avoid going beyond
12 minutes though I've gone far longer when I've challenged myself to see
just how big a batch I could accomplish.  But beyond 12, for me gets risky
(and boring!).  I can see 14 or 16 if I have to.  I was really asking about
actual positive benefits ---  affirmative reasons for going to longer roasts
as a matter of cupping preference.  Eliminating an acrid taste seems to be
responding to a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place,
and I wonder if something else in the profile might not have taken care of
that.  I suppose the difference is whether the 16 minutes produced a
memorable roast that you'd repeat (with that crop) if you could, or if you
simply muted some taint (burned off? developed out?).  And then, I note that
this (most recent case?) happened in 03.  Finally, the 16 minute roast was
within the range of the "upper limit" of my question.  So you didn't really
answer the question.  :o).    Though what you wrote does seem relevant.
	
	So, do you suppose it is fair to say that until someone reports
otherwise (and offers a decent shot at the science), we know of no benefit
to roasts that routinely extend past 14 to 16 minutes"
	
	Martin

6) From: Scott Marquardt
Geez, I actually understood some of the "why" issues in this post. Cool. I'm
gradually coming along.
As a rule, shouldn't lighter roasts be longer roasts?
On 6/20/06, Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Scott

7) From: miKe mcKoffee
A few years ago a number of us were playing with trying to figure out and
replicate the BB profile method (Black Bear). One particular part was a
drying hold stage of varying lengths. I found too much time in the drying
stage killed a coffee, for my tastes. I've read some in the past about and
others talked intelligently about the chemical reactions occurring during
the roast needing a certain moisture content etc. for different taste
components developing but can't dredge the grey matter for specifics. 
Note Ken's comment: "The result was one of my best so far for this PNG
coffee, sweet, spicy, complex, and caramelly, but essentially zero
brightness/acidity."
Zero brightness/acidity in a coffee is not what I seek in a roast of any
coffee be it Kona or Sumatra or Kenya or etc.. Not saying it's right or
wrong, just not for me.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Pacific Northwest Gathering IVhttp://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mdmint/pnwgIV.htmURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Scott Marquardt
	Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 9:38 AM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: Re: Why greater than 14min roasts> RE: Endng the roast >
RE: +Roast levels: Tom's temps
	
	Geez, I actually understood some of the "why" issues in this post.
Cool. I'm gradually coming along.
	 
	As a rule, shouldn't lighter roasts be longer roasts?
	
	On 6/20/06, Ken Mary  wrote: 
		>From: "Heat + Beans
		> So, do you suppose it is fair to say that until someone
reports otherwise 
		> (and offers a decent shot at the science), we know of no
benefit to roasts
		> that routinely extend past 14 to 16 minutes"
		
		Total roast time may be misleading, since different roast
methods begin with 
		varying degrees of preheat or none at all. I commonly start
a roast in my
		oven with everything cold, realizing that the first several
minutes of heat
		is idle time. I have started with preheat and found a
slightly different 
		flavor, not better or worse, just different.
		
		Many times I lengthen a profile for more extensive drying
when the bean
		"requires" it. For example, following Jeffrey Pawlan's
advice in his recent
		post, I shifted my drying phase to a lower bean temp of
130C. After 7 
		minutes "wasted" heating to 130C, another 5 minutes holding
at 130, then
		beginning a 5 to 6C ramp to the finish, first crack
temperature did not
		happen until 24 minutes had gone by. Another 3 minutes to
the finish temp of 
		216 and 2 minutes of slow cooling resulted in a total
in-drum time of nearly
		29 minutes. The result was one of my best so far for this
PNG coffee, sweet,
		spicy, complex, and caramelly, but essentially zero
brightness/acidity. 
		
		There was a small endotherm at first crack temp of 202-208C,
so still
		further drying at 130C could have been done. But will that
affect the flavor
		in a good or bad way? Maybe a later roast will tell.
		--

8) From: Captain CowPie
I use a heat gun with a bread machine. The heat gun has variable heat setti=
ngs, and I have been using the second highest setting and getting a roast a=
round 14-16 minutes. I had tried to reduce the time by using the highest se=
tting, but I seem to get a lot of divets(?) when I do. Now I am wondering i=
f I am missing something with this roast?
Any ideas on how to try to reduce the roasting time?
Vince

9) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
Batch size:  I'd try this one first.  Fewer beans should speed things up.
Bowl size:  Sounds like it's not an option
Heat: Two controls over this variable.  One is heat setting and the other is
distance from the batch.  I prefer using the highest setting only and
raising/lowering to control the heat.  Of interest is that the higher the HG
is raised, the larger is the "cone" of heat that hits the beans.  So even at
a consistent temperature getting to the beans, you are getting more even
coverage and less risk of hot spots.
An added note:  in my one trial using a bread machine, I noticed that the
paddles tended to move the beans around en masse, and did not do as good a
job as I'd like circulating the beans vertically.  This was a similar effect
to using the spoon end of my wooden stirrer before I switched to the stick
end.
Martin
On 6/21/06, Captain CowPie  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Martin
Heat + Beans
    all the rest is commentary

10) From: Captain CowPie
Martin,
Thanks for the  information. I need to play around with it a little bit. I =
am going to try the highest heat setting but moving it up to see if that he=
lps.
As for the paddles, I was lucky enough to find a bread machine with two pad=
dles that  is shaped like a loaf of bread. It seems to move the beans aroun=
d pretty well. I have not tried a single paddle machine yet. So far the roa=
sts have been pretty even with it.
Thanks again,
Vince
<Snip>
 up.
<Snip>
er is distance from the batch.  I prefer using the highest setting only a=
nd raising/lowering to control the heat.  Of interest is that the higher =
the HG is raised, the larger is the "cone" of heat that hits the beans.  =
So even at a consistent temperature getting to the beans, you are getting m=
ore even coverage and less risk of hot spots.
<Snip>
he paddles tended to move the beans around en masse, and did not do as good=
 a job as I'd like circulating the beans vertically.  This was a similar =
effect to using the spoon end of my wooden stirrer before I switched to the=
 stick end. 
<Snip>


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