HomeRoast Digest


Topic: how long can I keep roasted coffee in the freezer? (22 msgs / 626 lines)
1) From: Got Aloha??
Hello list,
first of all I want to thank the list for helping with my bbq drum I  
have been using for the past 2 years, I kind of slipped into lurkdom  
and homeroast digest vol# didn't pique my interest too much, so I  
learned my lesson, changed to individual emails and have really been  
enjoying the organize by thread in mail. I have been reading the list  
again daily for about 6 months now; it is amazing how much knowledge  
is floating around in this group.
sorry for the long intro so i'll keep the rest short and sweet
1. do beans rest in the freezer/can I have a perpetual day 4 rested  
coffee?
2. If not, should I let them rest a couple of days before freezing?
3. does anyone here freeze their beans?
4. how does freezing affect taste/can anyone here taste the freeze in  
the cup?
5. what are the drawbacks?
I am doing a small experiment with some honduras finca nueve posas, I  
will do a cupping with 1 jar of coffee frozen within 2 hours of roast  
and another that was allowed to rest for 48 hours before freezing,  
both will be removed from the freezer the night before to allow the  
beans to get to room temperature.
6. how long can I expect to keep roasted coffee tasting "fresh" from  
the freezer?
Thank you all, I promise to post my results too.  out of lurkdom here  
i come!
Justin in Salem, OR
homeroastin for 10 years from un-modded popper to a dedicated  
roasting grill
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only  
people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - 
Hunter S. Thompson
houstini

2) From: Steve Hay
On 6/28/06, Got Aloha??  wrote:
<Snip>
You may find the answer to this question elusive.  Check out
alt.coffeearchives for a long discussion.  Some people are believers
and some
aren't.   I've not yet had the need to experiment in this area.  The name
"Sivetz" refers to a guy who is a strong believer in air roasting and
freezing beans if you see his name dropped a lot on a.c regarding this
topic.
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

3) From: Brett Mason
Justin,  these are great questions.  Freezing is always an option - it just
isn't the same as fresh.  My answer to the challenge is owning 9 mason jars
with latches and seals.  I roast smaller amounts, and keep the perpetual
roast stash going.  Some o' this, and some o' that.  So I am more regular
now (lots of commercials out there on how to get regular...)
Freezing the beans in my opinion just hampers them, and I am not sure I
understand why to do that.  Can you instead find a roast method where you
can do some every two days, and meet your 4 day rest commitment at least
half the time?  The rest of the time you'll be close to your optimal 4 day
goal.
Now for convenience, you might buy a can of Folgers.  You can put that in
your freezer / fireplace / boiler / compost pile.  Will probably harm all of
them.
Good luck,
Brett
On 6/28/06, Got Aloha??  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
   Zassman

4) From: Jason Molinari
I can see his need or interest to freeze coffee. With a drum roaster it is just as easy to roast 2 lbs as it is to roast 1/2 lb, so for efficiency sake, why not do more. I do the same thing. I do freeze my coffee, cooled, right out of the roaster. A few weeks later after i take the jar out and let it come to room temp, it is still degassing over teh next 2-4 days, so i think freezing maintains the freshness well.
I can't taste a difference between frozen and unfrozen. I like to do it when i know i won't be able to roast the next week. Honestly, i hate roasting. I do it because i have to. The less i have to do it, the better.
jason
----- Original Message ----
From: Brett Mason 
To: homeroast
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:19:47 AM
Subject: Re: +how long can I keep roasted coffee in the freezer?
Justin,  these are great questions.  Freezing is always an option - it just isn't the same as fresh.  My answer to the challenge is owning 9 mason jars with latches and seals.  I roast smaller amounts, and keep the perpetual roast stash going.  Some o' this, and some o' that.  So I am more regular now (lots of commercials out there on how to get regular...)
 
 Freezing the beans in my opinion just hampers them, and I am not sure I understand why to do that.  Can you instead find a roast method where you can do some every two days, and meet your 4 day rest commitment at least half the time?  The rest of the time you'll be close to your optimal 4 day goal.
 
 Now for convenience, you might buy a can of Folgers.  You can put that in your freezer / fireplace / boiler / compost pile.  Will probably harm all of them.
 
 Good luck,
 Brett
On 6/28/06, Got Aloha??  wrote: Hello list,
first of all I want to thank the list for helping with my bbq drum I
have been using for the past 2 years, I kind of slipped into lurkdom
and homeroast digest vol# didn't pique my interest too much, so I 
learned my lesson, changed to individual emails and have really been
enjoying the organize by thread in mail. I have been reading the list
again daily for about 6 months now; it is amazing how much knowledge
 is floating around in this group.
sorry for the long intro so i'll keep the rest short and sweet
1. do beans rest in the freezer/can I have a perpetual day 4 rested
coffee?
2. If not, should I let them rest a couple of days before freezing? 
3. does anyone here freeze their beans?
4. how does freezing affect taste/can anyone here taste the freeze in
the cup?
5. what are the drawbacks?
I am doing a small experiment with some honduras finca nueve posas, I 
will do a cupping with 1 jar of coffee frozen within 2 hours of roast
and another that was allowed to rest for 48 hours before freezing,
both will be removed from the freezer the night before to allow the
beans to get to room temperature. 
6. how long can I expect to keep roasted coffee tasting "fresh" from
the freezer?
Thank you all, I promise to post my results too.  out of lurkdom here
i come!
Justin in Salem, OR
 homeroastin for 10 years from un-modded popper to a dedicated
roasting grill
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only
people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - 
Hunter S. Thompson
houstini 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
   Zassman

5) From: The Scarlet Wombat
In my experience, freezing beans is not a good idea.  I invested in a Food 
Saver and vacuum any beans that won't be used in a few days in Mason 
jars.  The method works well.  It is true that some few volatile oils are 
lost to the vacuum process, but I find this vastly superior to freezing.  I 
suppose vacuuming then freezing would work, but why bother?
Dan

6) From: Woody DeCasere
i think it depends on the type of freezer used, is it your kitchen freezer
that gets opened frequently? If so then it is a bad idea, becasue of
condensation forming on the beans when you constantly open and close the
unit.  If it's a freezer unit that you open rarely you may have a better
chance of keeping the condensation off.
On 6/28/06, The Scarlet Wombat  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Good night, and Good Coffee"

7) From: Maryann & Dave Schellenberg
I think there may be differences in how well food fares in a freezer, 
depending on whether it's a deep freeze, kept around 0F, or a 
refrigerator freezer, which is likely to be warmer than that. The 
condensation that Woody refers to is not likely to happen to beans 
inside a sealed container when the door is opened. That condensation 
will be caused by warm, humid room air condensing on exposed surfaces.
Dave S.
Woody DeCasere wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Got Aloha??
to all,
I see there is extended discussion on this topic on alt.coffee, I  
will try to sift through all of that when I get home from the river.
I have seen the sivetz freshness patent, and in that the temperatures  
mentioned are far colder than any freezer I have seen -40, I think it  
was.  anyway, I know my kitchen freezer probably isn't going anywhere  
near that.
For the record:  I am getting along fairly well drinking anything I  
roast within 10 days, that's my cutoff.  I usually roast 2 or 3 1lb.  
batches and share with them with my parents.  sometimes I go through  
it quicker than they do, so I would like to see what I can do to  
preserve freshness for them.  I love my drum, even when the thermal  
cutoff switch goes out in the middle of first crack and I have to  
scramble for a pair of vice grips.
snip --Freezing the beans in my opinion just hampers them--
how?  I kind of agree with you, but flavor-wise what could I expect?
If it's a vacuum sealer I need, a vacuum sealer I shall have.
aloha,
Justin
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only  
people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - 
Hunter S. Thompson
houstini

9) From: Maryann & Dave Schellenberg
Oops, small brain freeze there - hopefully not a vacuum.
I set my deepfreeze to -20 F, and my refrigerator freezer to 0 F.
I think that something related to what Woody is thinking of happens when 
people keep their everyday coffee beans in the freezer, and open the 
container frequently to make coffee. I've heard that the condensation 
that can happen during that process will degrade the coffee.
Dave S.
Maryann & Dave Schellenberg wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Don Cummings
Likewise I am in a situation where my Roaster (SC/TO) really requires
batches of at least 8 oz but optimally 12 or 16 oz.  I prefer to have 3 or 4
batches to choose from but only drink 1 lb / week.  For the most part I
juggle this ok without freezing but sometimes I find myself with too much on
hand.
On those occasions I vacseal part of the batch in a Rival Foodsaver bag
straight from the roaster.
This seems to works very well and I can see the beans begin to degas when I
remove them from the freezer down the road.  Don't know how long they would
keep this way since I haven't pushed it very far at all.
On 6/28/06, Jason Molinari  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Don

11) From: miKe mcKoffee
I'm somewhat in the Sivetz camp. I don't freeze my roasts for normal
consumption use but always have roasted beans frozen for a variety of
reasons. Will they be 100% as good? Likely not but they will be excellent a
year later! Even just in a valve bag 6 months later very good. Tom once
simply tossed a valve bag in the freezer and forgot about it, discovering it
6 months later. His asessment was while not as good as fresh roast and
rested, it was still amazingly good. Last week I stumbled on a partial vac'd
mason jar of Monkey that had been in the freezer over a year since PNWG III!
(put in the freezer after 9 day room temp vac'd mason jar storage) The shots
had no obvious "stale" taste and were quite good but not the usual 90 to 95%
crema I'll get at 5 or 6 days rest, only had about 80 to 85% crema;-) A year
later. Stale beans don't produce that kind of crema.
First it's very important to follow Sivetz admonition that they must be
hermetically sealed, keeping ALL freezer air off the beans. You will get
zero freezer taste this way. Mason Jar/bag Foodsaver vacuum sealing
accomplish this quite well IMO. 
Some of my reasons I have for vac'd and frozen roasts:
1) Great to have rested and waiting home roast returning from vacation. (I
usually don't freeze 'em until 3 or 4 day vac jar rest.)
2) I keep a quart mason jar "emergency beans" vac'd and frozen. Sometimes
"life" gets in the way of roasting schedule. This jar is who knows what mix
of tail ends that get added periodically when a batch isn't consumed by 10
days.
3) On vacation I take individual brewing size vac bag-o-beans and put them
in the freezer on arrival, if no freezer keep them in a cooler.
4) I make up little pre-ground single brewing size vac bags to take to work,
keep them in the freezer.
5) Anytime it doesn't look like a current roast batch will be used by day 10
it gets vac jar frozen, sometimes adding to the mixed jar sometimes keeping
it in separate jar.
When using beans from a frozen vac jar I don't bring the whole jar up to
room temp, simply measure out what is need for that brewing, re-vac jar and
return it to the freezer. The frozen beans dumped in the hopper only take a
few minutes to come up to room temp for grinding. And I have ground them
without waiting, didn't seem Rocky could care less, frozen beans no match
for hardened steel burrs. (Maybe dulls them a bit faster, don't know, I've
replaced Rocky's burrs twice in 4&1/2 years and will again soon, been 14
months;-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
<Snip>

12) From: Don Cummings
On 6/28/06, The Scarlet Wombat  wrote:
<Snip>
Actually vacuuming does not stop the aging process, it only minimizes the
degrading qualities of contact with air, which are substantial but not the
only processes at work which cause beans to degrade.  Beans will still shed
volatile aromatics and the cellular breakdown is only slowed.
-- 
<Snip>

13) From: miKe mcKoffee
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Don Cummings
	Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:29 AM
	 
<Snip>
degrading qualities of contact with air, which are substantial but not the
only processes at work which cause beans to degrade.  Beans will still shed
volatile aromatics and the cellular breakdown is only slowed.  
	 
<Snip>
I concur 100%. Vac'ing roasts (may) prolongs freshness but comes nowhere
close to stopping staling. And I'm the long time List Foodsaver shill;-) OTH
vac'ing and freezing does IMO greatly inhibit staling, but likely has less
to do with the vac'ing but rather hermetically sealing and freezing.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

14) From: Jeremy DeFranco
     I've actually just started freezing my beans after reading SCAAs "The
Roasting Concepts". The bottom line is that Freezing absolutely DOES
dramatically slow the staling process of fresh roasted coffee. To define the
staling of coffee here, I mean the losing of volatile aromas and CO2 to the
air. This has experimentally been proven, and is presented in the book (by
Sivetz). It is also proven every day I make coffee, as the CO2 causes
MASSIVE "bubbling" on top of my chemex. I never noticed as much gas release
during the brew when I didn't freeze my beans in the past. This means that
not only CO2 is being kept in the beans longer by freezing, but the volatile
aromas are as well. I freeze my beans in an airtight acrylic canister that
snaps shut to prevent the moisture and odor problem. It is hard to guage how
much moisture damage this process incurs in reality, but I have not yet
tasted any off-tastes, or smelled any off-aromas. A vac-seal+ freezer would
probably be the ultimate best, as a vac would suck the moisture out before
every reseal. Best of Luck. Jeremy

15) From: raymanowen
Jeremy, there is a more natural process that actually does "...dramatically
[stop] the staling process of fresh roasted coffee. To define the staling of
coffee here, I mean the losing of volatile aromas and CO2 to the air. This
has experimentally been proven..."
My process Stops fresh roasted coffee from staling, and involves an odd
process of dividing the beans into very small particles, adding heat to a
suitable volume of water. At the point at which the temperature of the water
stops rising with the added heat, I actually divide the coffee beans and add
the result to my coffee ball, then the boiling water for two minutes or as
long as the spirit moves me.
The problem is, I now possess something I'm disinclined to try to store long
term.
Nooo problem: I press, and my press pot responds beautifully for hours.
Again and again, I have to repeat the proof by empiricism. One can never be
too sure.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?

16) From: Brett Mason
Maybe we should all freeze our beans.
I came to this because I love fresh coffee - so I am working on the premise
that fresh coffee is likely best, served fresh...  I am roasting smaller
quantities right now, except for my monthly coffee subscribers - and then I
do two 3lb drum roasts...
I do agree that roasting can be a PITA - more so when it's 10 below outside,
and 10 above in the garage...
It's still worth it to me...
Everyone has to decide what quality is worth, and what trade is
acceptable...
Brett
On 6/28/06, Jeremy DeFranco  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
   Zassman

17) From: Steven Sobel
Jeremy,
Two questions is you don't mind.  When do you freeze your beans after
roasting.  Usually I am only roasting enough for 1-3 days and therefore
don't think that I am losing much flavor.  I do keep the beans in an
airtight container, however.
Also, did you find the book "Roasting Concepts" useful?
Thanks
Steve
On 6/28/06, Jeremy DeFranco  wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Geary Lyons
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I  am a bit puzzled by this discussion.  To me, the end result, or
destination,  of home roasting is a world class cup of coffee, virtually
unobtainable by any other means.  I really love the result in the cup. But I
enjoy the "journey" to the destination nearly as much. I currently have 30+
origins in my stash. most are a pound or less, but some are declining 10#'s.
Mostly African and Indonesian, but most areas are represented, It is a joy
to decide where my taste buds will visit this week, limited only by my stash
and in weaker moments, the 20 minute drive to SM's. Perhaps the proximity to
Tom and Maria's comes into play in my strategy.
I roast in my RK drum, as needed to keep at least 2-3 origins on hand.
Since it is just the wife and  me consuming, these are usually 2 to 3
150-225 gram batches twice per week. About an hour's time, +/-,  invested
per session. I look for a 4-5 day "turnover time", so most coffee is
consumed in the 3-5 day rest period.  Definitely not efficient, but
effective, given my desired end result. So, I guess my question is "What is
the benefit and/or desired end result of roasting larger batches and
freezing?"
I'm not against freezing roasted beans, and having caught "mikemc-itis" upon
taking delivery of Silvia.  I now  vacuum seal greens, amongst other food
items, for longer storage.  I have frozen a batch when I am traveling the
majority of a week, just to insure proper rest time. (Not sure whether it is
me or the coffee needing the rest most!)  But, again, I just don't see the
need or benefit to freeze my roasts regularly.
YMMV,
Geary

19) From: raymanowen
" far colder than any freezer I have seen -40, I think it
was." OK, was that -40F or -40C? But if it's really -40 degrees, just hope
it's not -40K!
I know- F and C cross @ -40 degrees.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?

20) From: rnkyle
I freeze my roasted beans in mason jars, freezer set at 0 degrees, I find 
them to be the same as fresh and rest time is still needed as they do not 
rest very much at 0 degrees. Just remove the jar and let it come up to room 
temperature before opening it. If you have the jar sealed tight let rest 24 
to 48 hrs. and listen to the pop when open the lid. Just like fresh roast.
This is my story and I'm sticking to it.
RK

21) From: Jeremy DeFranco
Jeremy,
Two questions if you don't mind.  When do you freeze your beans after
roasting.  Usually I am only roasting enough for 1-3 days and therefore
don't think that I am losing much flavor.  I do keep the beans in an
airtight container, however.
Also, did you find the book "Roasting Concepts" useful?
Thanks
Steve
Hello Steve,
- I am stil experimenting as to when to put the beans in the freezer. Right
now, I let the beans rest 3-4 days (in an airtight container) before putting
the beans in the freezer. I took Mike McKoffee's tried and tested advice
that 4 days is the magic number for resting. That way the beans stay at
their prime longer. Sivetz recommends putting them in the freezer right
away, but that's only if you want to have the coffee taste like it would
fresh out of the roaster. Some people mention the -40 farenheit temp. Sivetz
mentioned -20. That would be ideal, but the only freezers I have seen that
go that low were in a research lab. +29 is still better than +60 degrees
farenhiet if you want to reduce release of aromatics. One thing I noticed
about freezing- the beans will taste about the same as the day you put them
in there. So rest till desired point, and then freeze.
-You probably aren't losing much flavor if you use the beans within 5-10
days without freezing from my personal experience, when kept in an airtight
container. It sometimes takes me longer to finish a batch, though, as I may
roast more than one type at a time. Plus I like to be amused. So I freeze.
-As far as the "Roasting Concepts" goes it was only a bit useful, but it was
very interesting. There are many areas that could have been elaborated, but
unfortunately this is by design, as it was originally designed for a lecture
series. It still has much, much information that you can not find in Ken
Davids' books if you have read them already. It is somewhat scientifically
oriented, but it is also very accessable, and somewhat limited. If you want
to know the basic physics and chemistry of roasting and some general
explanations of the roasting process, then this book is for you. However be
warned, it does leave you wanting more.

22) From: rnkyle
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
2 to 3 days of coffee needs no freezing should be good up to 2 weeks. I =
have not read that book
RK


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