Ya know, I've changed my mind. All else being equal, regardless if routinely changing shot temps between shots in series of shots, I'd no longer recommend HX over Dual Boiler for HX convenience of calling shot via flush & go or flush & wait. Flush the flash! What was I thinking! Dual Boiler more intra shot stable than HX and obviously easier to do a series same shots same temp. So what if lowering DB shot temp might be a bit slower than HX flush & go to get lower temp, reality is not that slower if using a flush the DB to lower temp then wait for it to come back up! It took forever flushing both group and steam boilers simultaneously on Barry's Brute simply because the HX boiler inlet water was too high, duh. Now if between direct plumbed rotary HX versus tank vibe DB, it's maybe a tougher choice. But since tanks easily converted to auto-fill throw that out too. So it'd really only be rotary HX versus vibe DB. Then there's vibe to rotary conversion, or S1... (I won't bother mentioning GS3) Seems to me now, upon mucho further reflection, if DB in the budget that's the way to go. Period. End of story. OTH if DB not in the budget with the Brewtus II @$1700 being "entry level dual boiler", a quality HX while not as intra shot stable as a DB 'taint too shabby neither. My apologies if I previously led anyone astray. I still love my Bric', just not as much. Guess the 7 month Honeymoon is over! Part of this realization came last Saturday during the Gathering. HX flash flush & go required stopping myself or someone else mid-conversation more than once to hear the flash to count for the temp, how rude of the Bric'! Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
On 6/30/06, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip> When it presented us with nectar of that quality, a little rudeness is easily forgiven. Mike (just plain)
I have a La Spaziale S1, a dual boiler, and after have 2 HX single boiler vibe pump machines, I prefer the dual boiler rotary pump, plumbed in S1 hands down. RK
(Changing hats) Ron, for ease of use S1 tough to beat no question, by all reports a very sweet machine indeed! Just curious, would you say your move to the S1 was prompted more by searching for a better shot or more conveniently pulled non HX temp surfed shot? (or of course, just because you could!) Were either of your HX machines plumbed (at the minimum auto-fill mod'd. Simple and highly recommended BTW, especially smaller tank machines like Silvia!)? Then there's the debated question of whether the more level DB intra shot temp actually "tastes better" than an HX humped and level/slightly declining temp shot. And there's the question of how the S1s smaller diameter and deeper PF compares in the cup to the industry standard 58mm PFs, shots compared from a DB with rotary & 58mm of course. And the jury is still out on vibe vs. rotary in the cup. To a great extent the seeming reality is the shot in the cup, which is all that really matters, may vary minutely high end prosumer or even commercial machine to machine all being capable of extremely high quality shots, assuming the handle side of the PF is in order. (Rightly pointed out to me by Mike [just plain] when I mentioned my Bric' was rude;-) If you can't be with the one you love (ie covet as in GS3) love the one you're with! Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. <Snip>
Just my two cents... I wanted a dual boiler and rotary pump. Hated my HX and surfing for a decent shot. Plumbing the S1 was a plus (using a Flojet plumbed to a 5 gallon water bottle (good clean water). Being able to adjust the temp. on the front of the machine another plus. Getting a better shot was obviously part of the deal with the S1.
I have a plumed rotary HX with a TC in the head just connected to a meter and it works very nice. I read the water flowing through the head and much testing shows a very consistent 4-5 degree f. lower temperature at the puck. I flush/surf down while grinding to a close temp and after tamping surf it down a little further for just a very few seconds and find it to be no problem at all. Watch the temperature while pulling the shot..... happy.... happy. If I lost this machine I might get a nice duel boiler but I sure don't have any anxiety about needing one to get a good shot. Originally when I started monitoring temperatures to determine how many seconds to flush I quickly realized that is out to lunch. There are too many variables to be able to rely on that method. OK.... maybe under some circumstances some people can make it work but I found it to be impossible for me. Rob
snip: mike mcKoffee: <Snip> The two HX machines I had and actually one was not a true E-61 group (Expobar) and the Quick Mill Anderja premium. Both very nice machines at a good affordable price for the home enthusiast..I got rid of my Silvia because I got tired of temp surfing and although the HX machines makes it a bit easier just by watching the dancing flow change to a non dancing flow, it was still surfing and I just wanted to get entirely away from that. Neither of these machines were auto fill. I pull shots on occasion, but mostly drink americanos and cafe crema. The S-1 is easy to change group temps. and the dedicated steam/hot water boiler is a real work horse and is quite capable of supplying caps and lattes for a party of people, the recovery time on the group head is quick. The 53mm porta filter IMO at least for me is just perfect, and see no real issues there, The quietness of the rotary pump vs. the vibe pump in itself a reason I like the rotary pump, I love the auto fill and when I get my coffee bar completed I plan on having the drain plumbed in also. The S-1 is small commercial single group espresso machine and IMO a real sweet machine for the espresso minded person, the best of two worlds at a cost still under 2000 even with the filter and auto hook up extras. I guess to answer your question directly as to whether it was for connivance or shot quality I would have to say, connivance, but the shot quality and other espresso drinks does not suffer as result of connivance. Im not as technical as some on this list or as picky and I don't say this with any disrespect to those who are, I'm just not. But do know what I like in a Espresso machine, and the S1 is ideal for me. Semi auto is a nice feature as I set one button for 5 oz café crème using the single shot porta filter and for espresso and other espresso drinks I use the double filter and have it set for 1.5 oz shots. So with Mazzer Mini and the S-1 I think I have a very nice home based espresso set up that will last me many years. As for the true extremely finicky espresso person that wants more hands , their are several machines including the Bric and Brutus and GS3 and others in a higher price range that may be and probably better, but I'm satisfied with what I have and have, and at this time I have no ideas of changing ,or upgrading ever again, but I have said this in the past and I did, but for now very HAPPY. RK
My HX is a Livia 90 Auto (really semiauto--you can program two buttons, I do one for double and one for double ristretto), not an e61 but it does autofill the boiler. I find I don't have to temp surf = except when I first power up the machine--and then only need to run a = warming flush through the grouphead and PF. Interestingly, when I replaced the gasket, pressure increased a tad at first! On Jul 2, 2006, at 9:21 AM, rnkyle wrote: <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> <Snip> Sandy Andina www.sandyandina.com
Ron, I have no doubt you are extremely happy and satisfied with the S1, = as you should be! It's "only" one of the sweetest prosumer espresso = machines available. And especially if you have it running in 20A mode the only = other sub $2k prosumer machine that might have a chance to keep up with it = high volume entertaining would be the Bricoletta, also commercial rated and running 20A. But Bric' HX not DB so good chance you'd steam me under the table since I've tuned boiler pressure favoring straight shots over = steam power. (If crank up the boiler pressure for killer steaming instead of = just ok steaming then the HX flush & go for shots is much longer.) And of = course you don't have that kind of compromise issue with the DB S1! It would be = an interesting steaming power comparison with the S1's lower powered 1250W = but larger 2.5L boiler compared to Bric's 1800W 1.5L. The S1 would = definitely beat the Bric' for ease of use. But I still think the Bric' would beat = the S1 in a strictly beauty contest:-) Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I = must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal = enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone = before. <Snip>
snip mm: Bric' for ease of use. But I still think the Bric' would beat the S1 in a strictly beauty contest:-) No contest there for sure. Have a nice 4th of July and this wish is extended to the entire list. RK