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Topic: HX versus Dual Boiler: I TAKE IT BACK! (11 msgs / 378 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
Ya know, I've changed my mind. All else being equal, regardless if routinely
changing shot temps between shots in series of shots, I'd no longer
recommend HX over Dual Boiler for HX convenience of calling shot via flush &
go or flush & wait. Flush the flash! What was I thinking! Dual Boiler more
intra shot stable than HX and obviously easier to do a series same shots
same temp. So what if lowering DB shot temp might be a bit slower than HX
flush & go to get lower temp, reality is not that slower if using a flush
the DB to lower temp then wait for it to come back up! It took forever
flushing both group and steam boilers simultaneously on Barry's Brute simply
because the HX boiler inlet water was too high, duh. 
Now if between direct plumbed rotary HX versus tank vibe DB, it's maybe a
tougher choice. But since tanks easily converted to auto-fill throw that out
too. So it'd really only be rotary HX versus vibe DB. Then there's vibe to
rotary conversion, or S1... (I won't bother mentioning GS3) Seems to me now,
upon mucho further reflection, if DB in the budget that's the way to go.
Period. End of story.
OTH if DB not in the budget with the Brewtus II @$1700 being "entry level
dual boiler", a quality HX while not as intra shot stable as a DB 'taint too
shabby neither.
My apologies if I previously led anyone astray. I still love my Bric', just
not as much. Guess the 7 month Honeymoon is over! Part of this realization
came last Saturday during the Gathering. HX flash flush & go required
stopping myself or someone else mid-conversation more than once to hear the
flash to count for the temp, how rude of the Bric'!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

2) From: Michael Dhabolt
On 6/30/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
When it presented us with nectar of that quality, a little rudeness is
easily forgiven.
Mike (just plain)

3) From: rnkyle
I have a La Spaziale S1, a dual boiler, and after have 2 HX single boiler 
vibe pump machines, I prefer the dual boiler rotary pump, plumbed in S1 
hands down.
RK

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
(Changing hats)
Ron, for ease of use S1 tough to beat no question, by all reports a very
sweet machine indeed! Just curious, would you say your move to the S1 was
prompted more by searching for a better shot or more conveniently pulled non
HX temp surfed shot? (or of course, just because you could!) Were either of
your HX machines plumbed (at the minimum auto-fill mod'd. Simple and highly
recommended BTW, especially smaller tank machines like Silvia!)?
Then there's the debated question of whether the more level DB intra shot
temp actually "tastes better" than an HX humped and level/slightly declining
temp shot. And there's the question of how the S1s smaller diameter and
deeper PF compares in the cup to the industry standard 58mm PFs, shots
compared from a DB with rotary & 58mm of course. And the jury is still out
on vibe vs. rotary in the cup.
To a great extent the seeming reality is the shot in the cup, which is all
that really matters, may vary minutely high end prosumer or even commercial
machine to machine all being capable of extremely high quality shots,
assuming the handle side of the PF is in order. (Rightly pointed out to me
by Mike [just plain] when I mentioned my Bric' was rude;-)
If you can't be with the one you love (ie covet as in GS3) love the one
you're with!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
<Snip>

5) From: HailSeeszer
Amen!

6) From: HailSeeszer
Just my two cents...
I wanted a dual boiler and rotary pump.  Hated my HX and surfing for a
decent shot.  Plumbing the S1 was a plus (using a Flojet plumbed to a 5
gallon water bottle (good clean water).  Being able to adjust the temp.
on the front of the machine another plus.  Getting a better shot was
obviously part of the deal with the S1.

7) From: Rob Stewart
I have a plumed  rotary HX with a TC in the head just connected to a meter 
and it works very nice.  I read the water flowing through the head and much 
testing shows a very  consistent  4-5 degree f. lower temperature at the 
puck.  I flush/surf down while grinding to a close temp and after tamping 
surf it down a little further for just a very few seconds and find it to be 
no problem at all. Watch the temperature while pulling the shot..... 
happy.... happy.
If I lost this machine I might get a nice duel boiler but I sure don't have 
any anxiety about needing one to get a good shot.
Originally when I started monitoring temperatures  to determine how many 
seconds to flush I quickly realized that is out to lunch.   There are too 
many variables to be able to rely on that method.     OK.... maybe under 
some circumstances some people can make it work but I found it to be 
impossible for me.
Rob

8) From: rnkyle
snip: mike mcKoffee:
<Snip>
The two HX machines I had and actually one was not a true E-61 group 
(Expobar)
and the Quick Mill Anderja premium. Both very nice machines at a good 
affordable
price for the home enthusiast..I got rid of my Silvia because I got tired of 
temp surfing
and although the HX machines makes it a bit easier just by watching the 
dancing flow
change to a non dancing flow, it was still surfing and I just wanted to get 
entirely away
from that. Neither of these machines were auto fill.
I pull shots on occasion, but mostly drink americanos and cafe crema. The 
S-1 is easy to
change group temps. and the dedicated steam/hot water boiler is a real work 
horse and
is quite capable of  supplying caps and lattes for a party of people, the 
recovery time on the
group head is quick. The 53mm porta filter IMO at least for me is just 
perfect, and see no
real issues there, The quietness of the rotary pump vs. the vibe pump in 
itself a reason I
like the rotary pump, I love the auto fill and when I get my coffee bar 
completed I plan on
having  the drain plumbed in also.
The S-1 is small commercial single group espresso machine and IMO a real 
sweet machine
for the espresso minded person, the best of two worlds at a cost still under 
2000 even with the
filter and auto hook up extras.
I guess to answer your question directly as to whether it was for connivance 
or shot quality I
would have to say, connivance, but the shot quality and other espresso 
drinks does not
suffer as result of connivance. Im not as technical as some on this list or 
as picky and I don't
say this with any disrespect to those who are, I'm just not. But do know 
what I like in a Espresso
machine, and the S1 is ideal for me.
Semi auto is a nice feature as I set one button for 5 oz café crème using 
the single shot porta
filter and for espresso and other espresso drinks I use the double filter 
and have it set for 1.5 oz
shots. So with Mazzer Mini and the S-1 I think I have a very nice home based 
espresso set up
that will last me many years. As for the true extremely finicky espresso 
person that wants more
hands , their are several machines including the Bric and Brutus and GS3 and 
others in a higher price
range that may be and probably better, but I'm satisfied with what I have 
and have, and at this time
I have  no ideas of changing ,or upgrading ever again, but I have said this 
in the past and I did,
 but for now very HAPPY.
RK

9) From: Sandy Andina
My HX is a Livia 90 Auto (really semiauto--you can program two  
buttons, I do one for double and one for double ristretto), not an  
e61 but it does autofill the boiler. I find I don't have to temp surf  =
except when I first power up the machine--and then only need to run a  =
warming flush through the grouphead and PF. Interestingly, when I  
replaced the gasket, pressure increased a tad at first!
On Jul 2, 2006, at 9:21 AM, rnkyle wrote:
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Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com

10) From: miKe mcKoffee
Ron, I have no doubt you are extremely happy and satisfied with the S1, =
as
you should be! It's "only" one of the sweetest prosumer espresso =
machines
available. And especially if you have it running in 20A mode the only =
other
sub $2k prosumer machine that might have a chance to keep up with it =
high
volume entertaining would be the Bricoletta, also commercial rated and
running 20A. But Bric' HX not DB so good chance you'd steam me under the
table since I've tuned boiler pressure favoring straight shots over =
steam
power. (If crank up the boiler pressure for killer steaming instead of =
just
ok steaming then the HX flush & go for shots is much longer.) And of =
course
you don't have that kind of compromise issue with the DB S1! It would be =
an
interesting steaming power comparison with the S1's lower powered 1250W =
but
larger 2.5L boiler compared to Bric's 1800W 1.5L. The S1 would =
definitely
beat the Bric' for ease of use. But I still think the Bric' would beat =
the
S1 in a strictly beauty contest:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I =
must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal =
enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone =
before.
<Snip>

11) From: rnkyle
snip mm:
Bric' for ease of use. But I still think the Bric' would beat the
S1 in a strictly beauty contest:-)
No contest there for sure. Have a nice 4th of July and this wish is extended 
to the entire list.
RK


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