HomeRoast Digest


Topic: 'robust'/'espresso' type coffee . RE: Home roasters (was Re: +Lurker on the Food Saver List (14 msgs / 637 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
That statement is completely misleading if not totally in error. Some of the
finest espresso cafes (all that I know of actually), ones that pull
excellent shots, do not roast dark well into 2nd. I think you'd find quite a
few if not the majority of List members who are into espresso don't roast
dark either. If you're talking Charbucks sure, but *$ does not equal good
espresso.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

2) From: Jim Russell
I've gotta agree with Mike on this one.  Espresso is a coffee extraction
method not a roast level.  I had sort of forgotten this recently and had
only been pulling shots of Espresso Monkey.  But seeing Mike talk about
pulling shots of the Panamanian Trio reminded me to use Sylvia for other
coffees as well.
The best shot I've made in the last week or so has been a delicious Bugisu
ristretto from a City+ roast rested about four days.  Mmm-mmm good.  I still
love Espresso Monkey, but mixing it up has been great.
Peace, love, and coffee,
Jim
On 7/6/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Roasting them almost as fast as they come

3) From: Zara Haimo
<Snip>
I mostly roast a few snaps into 2nd.  For lattes, I prefer a slightly darker
roast to cut through the milk.  For straight shots, I often like a slightly
lighter roast.  I usually pull shots from single origin beans.  A good shot,
pulled right, is very sweet and rich without any sugar or cream added.

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
More like common misconception that roasts for espresso "are supposed to be"
FC+++ and beyond. Misconception seemingly proliferated by many places that
routinely over roast (aka Charbucks and those that follow their lead). Why
do they roast so varietal characteristics are far over shadowed by the roast
itself, often to nothing but burnt taste? Lots of speculation on that. Burnt
taste doesn't taste as "stale" as a well roasted varietal at oh lets say 18
months old (Common to see "best if used by" dates in that range), cheaper
beans lacking good varietal character still will display plenty of burnt
taste, burnt cuts through copious milk, sugar and flavorings. You name it, I
don't know. A growing number of Third Wave espresso cafes do not follow
Charbucks lead. For instance Stumptown doesn't even do any blender
sugar/flavored to death beverages not to mention their Hairbender blend
targeted for their espresso machines is anything but dark roasted!
As far as espresso essentially a pots worth of coffee bang into a single
cup, you are of course welcome to your opinion. Possibly formed by
experiences with sub quality espresso "out there". Caffeine wise a shot of
espresso actually has less than a cup of coffee brewed from the same amount
same coffee. A huge part of the essence of espresso is the linger. In that
respect a pots worth of coffee compared to a shot of espresso might hold
true. IE the linger from a shot may last about as long as it would take to
drink a full pot of coffee! Pulled a ristretto shot of Panama Gesha today I
was still tasting 45 minutes later. The subtleties of this Light Full City
roasted (no 2nd) Gesha are in fact magnified in a shot versus other brewing
methods. Strong to be sure, but no bitterness or harshness etc, and smooth
as silk. As far as good espresso blends go they run the gambit of taste
profiles not just lower tones, if that's what you meant by robust or super
strong flavors. Generally speaking yes commercial espresso blends target a
more balanced blend than say a shot of City+ Yirg which I guarantee has some
'strong' bright flowery flavors! And many Third Wave espresso places are
getting into SO (single origin) espresso more too, not just home espresso
fiends.
Quality espresso may be even more misunderstood by the masses than a quality
cup of other method brewed coffee. I'm just beginning to get a fairly good
grasp of espresso after 4 years with Silvia and now the Bricoletta.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
<Snip>

5) From: Brett Mason
I think Aaron and you agree on this Mike, particularly where he states "Much
into 2nd crack seems to lose too much of the flavor..."  I think you misread
what Aaron said.
We need to save our disagreements for when we disagree...
Brett
On 7/6/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
HomeRoast
   Zassman

6) From: Woody DeCasere
I do believe that alot of Southern Italian Coffee shops roast their blends
for espresso darker, it is not a *$ invention, just because you hate the
company, don't hate all the methods. Long before i ever heard of Starbucks i
have been drinking espresso from California and the west coast, to New York,
Philly and Boston. I am not talking foo foo coffee places, but honest small
coffee roasters and real espresso shops, Most if not all use a darker
Italian roasted Coffee for espresso. Now i understand that SO espresso's
where you are looking for an origin flavor you would not want to roast
darker. Unfortunately most smaller roasters and coffee shops don't have more
than one espresso roast, i guess its economics or training of staff, so they
go with what they do.
With my little El Espresso i don't make great espresso, i make darn good
espresso, but i still prefer a nice light Vienna roast because i mostly
drink Cap's. When i can get a really nice machine i will experiment more i
am sure.
Woody
-- 
"Good night, and Good Coffee"

7) From: Michael Boshes
As for espresso roast level I've learned to appreciate lighter roasting.
Can't beat the sweet fruitiness and liveliness of a well pulled shot of
City+ to Full City Monkey Blend. However every 5th roast or so I'll take the
Monkey almost a full minute into 2nd. The fruitiness is somewhat subdued but
the brooding bittersweet pungency and wineyness that emerge makes this roast
level an enjoyable change from the lighter roast.
Nobody has mentioned the addition of robusta as a defining taste in many
espresso blends. I bet that most of us would not think of drinking a cup of
robusta but seek out espresso blends that contain it. I don't like the edge
it gives to the taste which is why I stick with Monkey. IMO the robusta is
used to enhance crema production and the look of the espresso rather than to
enhance the taste.
MichaelB
On 7/6/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Ed Needham
I served espresso in my shop back in 1977.  Typically, it was a pretty dark 
roast back then.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

9) From: miKe mcKoffee
Excellent point about Southern Italian style espresso being darker. There's
dark roasted and then there's DARK roasted. I'm talking more about all too
commonly seen so dark brown virtually black dripping with oil so called
"espresso roast" seen all too often "out there". Maybe I'm mistaken but
that's not typical Southern Italian style. Of course also huge difference in
an under two week old Vienna roast for espresso and 18 month anything roast.
Robusta wise seems it's non-use is also part of the Third Wave espresso
consciousness with focus on taste and quality. Robusta to "aid crema
creation" only need come into play dealing with stale coffee. Though very
true some blend with high quality robusta for it's bite, many many premiere
espresso blends don't but are 100% Arabica.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Michael Boshes
	Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:57 AM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: Re: 'robust'/'espresso' type coffee . RE: Home roasters
(was Re: +Lurker on the Food Saver List
	
	As for espresso roast level I've learned to appreciate lighter
roasting. Can't beat the sweet fruitiness and liveliness of a well pulled
shot of City+ to Full City Monkey Blend. However every 5th roast or so I'll
take the Monkey almost a full minute into 2nd. The fruitiness is somewhat
subdued but the brooding bittersweet pungency and wineyness that emerge
makes this roast level an enjoyable change from the lighter roast. 
	 
	Nobody has mentioned the addition of robusta as a defining taste in
many espresso blends. I bet that most of us would not think of drinking a
cup of robusta but seek out espresso blends that contain it. I don't like
the edge it gives to the taste which is why I stick with Monkey. IMO the
robusta is used to enhance crema production and the look of the espresso
rather than to enhance the taste. 
	 
	MichaelB

10) From: Sandy Andina
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Metropolis roasts their Red Line at City-to-City+.  (As do I).
On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:03 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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Metropolis roasts their Red Line =
at City-to-City+.  (As do I).
On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:03 AM, =
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
More like common misconception that roasts for = espresso "are supposed to be"FC+++ and = beyond. Misconception seemingly proliferated by many places = thatroutinely over roast (aka = Charbucks and those that follow their lead). Whydo they roast so varietal characteristics are far = over shadowed by the roastitself, often = to nothing but burnt taste? Lots of speculation on that. Burnttaste doesn't taste as "stale" as a well roasted = varietal at oh lets say 18months old = (Common to see "best if used by" dates in that range), cheaperbeans lacking good varietal character still will = display plenty of burnttaste, burnt = cuts through copious milk, sugar and flavorings. You name it, = Idon't know. A growing number of Third Wave = espresso cafes do not followCharbucks = lead. For instance Stumptown doesn't even do any blendersugar/flavored to death beverages not to mention = their Hairbender blendtargeted for their espresso = machines is anything but dark roasted! As far as = espresso essentially a pots worth of coffee bang into a singlecup, you are of course welcome to your opinion. = Possibly formed byexperiences with sub = quality espresso "out there". Caffeine wise a shot ofespresso actually has less than a cup of coffee = brewed from the same amountsame coffee. = A huge part of the essence of espresso is the linger. In thatrespect a pots worth of coffee compared to a shot of = espresso might holdtrue. IE the linger from a = shot may last about as long as it would take todrink a full pot of coffee! Pulled a ristretto shot = of Panama Gesha today Iwas still = tasting 45 minutes later. The subtleties of this Light Full = Cityroasted (no 2nd) Gesha are in = fact magnified in a shot versus other brewingmethods. Strong to be sure, but no bitterness or = harshness etc, and smoothas silk. As = far as good espresso blends go they run the gambit of tasteprofiles not just lower tones, if that's what you = meant by robust or superstrong = flavors. Generally speaking yes commercial espresso blends target = amore balanced blend than say a shot of City+ = Yirg which I guarantee has some'strong' = bright flowery flavors! And many Third Wave espresso places = aregetting into SO (single origin) = espresso more too, not just home espresso Quality espresso may be even more misunderstood by = the masses than a qualitycup of other = method brewed coffee. I'm just beginning to get a fairly goodgrasp of espresso after 4 years with Silvia and now = the Bricoletta. Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeeURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes = etc:http://mdmint=.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmfirst not know. And in knowing = know I know not. Each Personal enlightenmentfound exploring the many divergent foot steps of = Those who have gone before. From: homeroast-admin= s.sweetmarias.com [mailto:homeroast-adm= in] On Behalf Of AaronSent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:09 PMTo: homeroast= s.comSubject: Re: 'robust'/'espresso' = type coffee . RE: Home roasters = (was Re: +Lurker on the Food Saver List When you look = at 'espresso blends' they seem to be going for the = 'robust' or super strong flavors, not the tooty fruity and / or = subtles of regular brewed coffee.  = Afterall, espresso is essentially,  a pots worth of coffee bang, = stewed down into one cup to drink..... again, an = opinion. However since we are onto this topic,  what is the purpose of  super dark... ie FC+++  french, vienna, well into = 2nd... Isn't that generally the area that 'espresso's are supposed to = be roasted at or at least = the common conception of? Aaron homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = = --Apple-Mail-7--47792796--

11) From: Sandy Andina
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On Jul 6, 2006, at 8:39 AM, Woody DeCasere wrote:
<Snip>
Seattle's Caffe d'Arte has four "regional" espresso roasts, with  
north-to-south (Firenze, Parioli, Capri, Taormina) corresponding to  
lightest-to-darkest.  IIRC, Torrefazione Italia had a similar  
system.  The little hole-in-the-wall joints in NYC's Little Italy  
(assuming they didn't use canned Lavazza) all seem to use extremely  
dark, oily beans--which matches the neighborhood's mostly southern  
Italian/Sicilian ethnicity. The darker beans seem to go better with  
the ubiquitous bottle of anisette for the "caffe corretto" (sp?) that  
is so popular there. (Many places don't even ask if you want booze-- 
the anisette or sambuca bottle is brought to the table with the  
espresso and the sugar service).
Interestingly, though, at CDA you have to specifically ask for a shot  
of the darker roasts--Firenze, a City+-to-light FC, is the default,  
even in milk drinks.
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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On Jul 6, 2006, at =
8:39 AM, Woody DeCasere wrote:
I do = believe that alot of Southern Italian Coffee shops roast their blends = for espresso darker, it is not a *$ = invention,  Seattle's Caffe d'Arte has four = "regional" espresso roasts, with north-to-south (Firenze, Parioli, = Capri, Taormina) corresponding to lightest-to-darkest.  IIRC, = Torrefazione Italia had a similar system.  The little hole-in-the-wall = joints in NYC's Little Italy (assuming they didn't use canned Lavazza) = all seem to use extremely dark, oily beans--which matches the = neighborhood's mostly southern Italian/Sicilian ethnicity. The darker = beans seem to go better with the ubiquitous bottle of anisette for the = "caffe corretto" (sp?) that is so popular there. (Many places don't even = ask if you want booze--the anisette or sambuca bottle is brought to the = table with the espresso and the sugar service).
Interestingly, though, at = CDA you have to specifically ask for a shot of the darker = roasts--Firenze, a City+-to-light FC, is the default, even in milk = drinks. = --Apple-Mail-8--46543631--

12) From: Sandy Andina
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On Jul 6, 2006, at 9:46 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
But it seems to be Southern Italian/American style, especially in  
homes of Southern Italian heritage where most people drink their  
"espresso" not from machines but from flip-drips and moka pots.   
Espresso machines are a luxury, usually reserved for bars and  
cafes.....and American yuppie/boomer coffee snobs like us.  ;-).  You  
usually don't see lighter roasts brewed up in moka pots--Medaglia  
d'Oro, Lavazza, and Progresso canned stuff tends to be the dark stuff.
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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On Jul 6, 2006, at =
9:46 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:

I'm talking more about all = too

commonly = seen so dark brown virtually black dripping with oil so = called

"espresso = roast" seen all too often "out there". Maybe I'm mistaken but

=

that's not typical Southern = Italian style.

But it seems to be = Southern Italian/American style, especially in homes of Southern Italian = heritage where most people drink their "espresso" not from machines but = from flip-drips and moka pots.  Espresso machines are a luxury, = usually reserved for bars and cafes.....and American yuppie/boomer = coffee snobs like us.  ;-).  You usually don't see lighter roasts = brewed up in moka pots--Medaglia d'Oro, Lavazza, and Progresso canned = stuff tends to be the dark stuff. = --Apple-Mail-9--46186487--

13) From: Woody DeCasere
agreed, nast burnt oily coffee is crap, but i like a nice vienna now and
then.
On 7/6/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Good night, and Good Coffee"

14) From: miKe mcKoffee
Interesting, though the kilo of whole bean Lavazza sent with Barry's Brute
wasn't roasted all that dark. 'bout FC+. Valved heat sealed bag-o-crap stale
as hell beans and "best if used by Jan 30, 2008" dated but not roasted
really dark, virtually no oil. Might have been decent when it was fresh!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Sandy Andina
	Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:33 AM
	But it seems to be Southern Italian/American style, especially in
homes of Southern Italian heritage where most people drink their "espresso"
not from machines but from flip-drips and moka pots. Espresso machines are a
luxury, usually reserved for bars and cafes.....and American yuppie/boomer
coffee snobs like us. ;-). You usually don't see lighter roasts brewed up in
moka pots--Medaglia d'Oro, Lavazza, and Progresso canned stuff tends to be
the dark stuff.
		Sandy
	www.sandyandina.com


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