HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Sweet Maria Homeroast List Coffee FAQ (9 msgs / 386 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
While the idea of a list wiki can be good as a reference repository, see
some areas for concern developing. Since the wiki is titled "Sweet Maria
Homeroast List Coffee FAQ" I'll express these concerns here.
The wiki procedures state "Am I allowed to change stuff?
Yes. The site tracks changes. Don't worry. Facts should be edited for
correctness. Answers may be edited for clarity, brevity, grammar, and style.
However, do not delete someone else's opinion in the FAQ. If you disagree
with opinions, edit the entry to include your perspective, keeping the
discussion neutral."
For instance what I added last night talking about reasons for vac sealing
greens now totally re-worded and now sounds like only to protect against
drying out. Keeping from excess humidity just as if not more important. Any
mention of protection for picking up odors totally deleted. Reasoning behind
why originally started vac sealing greens in the first place deleted. 
Then there's the changes made today concerning freezing roasts calling Mr.
Sivetz a "quack". Maybe it's in jest, but totally inappropriate and
slanderous IMO. I highly doubt Tom would call Michael Sivetz a quack, and
the wiki is using Tom & Maria's business name. 
Ok while typing this I now see where quack has been changed to having a
strike out with the added admonition to take Mr. Sivetz opinion with a grain
of salt. As if the person making that statement has anywhere near the
experience or knowledge of coffee chemistry as Mr. Sivetz.
If the creator of the wiki wants to re-state things in their words that's
fine. But the direction it seems to be going it seems to me the Sweet
Maria's name should be taken off. Not my call of course, don't know if Tom &
Maria were even asked about using their business name on said wiki.
And for the record there wasn't a single link to any Sweet Maria's reference
material when I got there...
I'll quit Ranting now but personally don't plan on having anything further
to do with said wiki unless the current course it's taking changes.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

2) From: Steve Hay
Ok, before addressing Mike's comments, I think it is important for me to
make a statement of purpose regarding the Wiki.
I clicked the button to set it up, but I do not want to be thought of as
"author," "source," "owner," etc of the Wiki.  I am willing to handle
administative manners regarding the site, but I really wanted to see what
would happen if I threw something relatively open out there and let the
community of "us" grow it naturally.  In that way, the owners of the wiki
would be the contributors, collectively, and it would be an extension of
this list.
On 7/19/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
We could try the more restrictive hands-off approach of identifying authors
of said content and no one touches anyone else's words.  I worry that this
approach might lead to excessive length and a lack of brevity.  That's why I
was hoping we could be able to revise each other's words without too
authorial control.
Thoughts on this, everyone?
Mike, I think you may misremember what you wrote.  Tracked changes show that
you wrote the following:
"However, if storage dryer than the moisture content of the beans would it
not cause the beans to dry out. Hence controlled humidity and temperature
storage. I choose to use vacuum bag sealing greens to keep their moisture
content stable."
I revised this to:
"Vaccuum Bag Storage: If the storage is dryer than the moisture content of
the beans, the beans may dry out. Hence controlled humidity and temperature
storage. Vacuum bag sealing greens is a viable option to keep green beans
fresh and their moisture content stable."
My intent was to remove the sentence fragment and use of first person.  I
was also trying out a format for splitting up different people's ideas into
categories based on method.
Then there's the changes made today concerning freezing roasts calling Mr.
<Snip>
Okay, this all was me in an attempt to be light-hearted.  It is true that
some people think his motivations are jaded by his desire to sell
equipment.  I've heard quite a bit of debate on a.c about the believability
of Sivetz.  At any rate, I was headed towards toning it down (while you were
writing this post apparently) and I've deleted the whole remark:
Sivetz Freezing Method: Sivetz is a roasting expert believes coffee should
ideally be vaccuum-sealed and deep-frozen IMMEDIATELY after roasting. Sivetz
claims immediate freezing prevents the escape of volitile compounds
(aldehydes) which can affect flavor. Vaccuum-sealing prevents residual
oxygen content from affecting bean flavor (USPTO Patent
#6514522)
Looks like there's a dangling "who" in there--oops!
<Snip>
First, you don't have to refer to me in the anonymous third person, Mike.
Not sure why you're doing that.
Your points are well-taken.  I was hoping, which maybe was unclear or too
implicit from what I drafted in the wiki section regarding edits, was that
all people would be welcome to revise words and we would collectively try
not to step on each other's toes.  I do remember revising the section you
referred to above, but I didn't think I removed any information.  If it was
me, it was absolutely unintentional; if it was a combined effort, it
probably was unintentional.
Also, last night I emailed Tom to ask him about the use of the SM name.  I'm
not hard up either way on whether or not its there, but I thought relating
the Wiki to this group would help build a sense of list community.  I've not
heard back from Tom yet on the matter.
And for the record there wasn't a single link to any Sweet Maria's reference
<Snip>
Material has been added.  The Wiki started with nothing but questions and a
few answers off the top of my head.  My intent was to get it out in the
ether for people to hack on.  I do think we should probably add a link to or
include the TOS/list rules in the Wiki to keep things consistent with the
spirit of the list.
I'll quit Ranting now but personally don't plan on having anything further
<Snip>
Your choice of course.  I do value and respect your coffee opinions and
knowledge (I think the list in general does too) and would miss your input.
But I don't think the Wiki should be a slave to any individual who
immediately delivers ultimatums without even initiating a discussion first.
Enough said about that.
To end on the positive note, the Wiki overall seems to be pretty successful
as a first start.  Many people appeared to contribute today and hopefully
the novelty of something like this won't immediately wear off.  The members
of this list really do represent a huge cross section of experience and
knowledge.  Putting this down somewhere in a relatively compact and
accessible form just seems worth it to me!
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

3) From: Steve Hay
On 7/19/06, Steve Hay  wrote:
<Snip>
I've added some Wiki editorial guidelines to help address some of what's
come up just today.  By no means do I intend these to be final say, but I
thought I would give them a go.  I'm reluctant to start a thread on this
here as it may be more appropriately contained in the Wiki itself to reduce
list traffic.  I'll move the admin stuff to a separate page, or have a
special page where we can track people's discussion of appropriate rules.
If you contribute to the discussion itself, make sure you document who you
are so we can better keep track of who thinks what, etc.
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

4) From: Jason D. Montgomery
For anyone interested, I laid some basic groundwork on the SCTO on the =
FAQ. Would love to see it expand some more:http://homeroast.pbwiki.com/SCTO 
later,
jason
 
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5) From: raymanowen
I am no editor, but speelling in the English language is at least as
illogical as math and the sciences are logical.
"Vaccuum Bag..." What happens if you evacuate such a bag and it springs a
leak? Does the vacuum leak out, like the dark leaks out of a darkroom if you
leave the door ajar?
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?

6) From: miKe mcKoffee
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Steve Hay
	Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 6:06 PM
	
<Snip>
show that you wrote the following:
		
	My intent was to remove the sentence fragment and use of first
person.  I was also trying out a format for splitting up different people's
ideas into categories based on method.
<Snip>
My apologies. I've answered questions on vac bagging greens so many times
over the years I thought I'd included protecting from high humidity and
original thoughts before why starting vac sealing greens but must have
spaced it. 
<Snip>
roasts calling Mr.
		Sivetz a "quack". Maybe it's in jest, but totally
inappropriate and
<Snip>
<Snip>
that some people think his motivations are jaded by his desire to sell
equipment.  I've heard quite a bit of debate on a.c about the believability
of Sivetz.  At any rate, I was headed towards toning it down (while you were
writing this post apparently) and I've deleted the whole remark:
<Snip>
Glad you did. Calling any professional a quack at his profession and saying
his methods should be taken with a grain salt in a public forum is poor form
at the minimum.
Further, what most of his naysayers totally miss on these forums etc. Sivetz
was not and has never said this storage method is superior to buying from an
Artisan roaster weekly so your coffee is the freshest possible or targeted
this storage method at home roasting. Think about, what do you see in
grocery store aisles all over the country? Coffee in hoppers exposed to air
for weeks or months on end waiting for uneducated coffee consumers. Or in
bags on a shelf with ridiculous "Best if used by dates" over a year away.
Mr. Sivetz proposed a method to improve commercial coffee storage. Image
grocery stores with hermetically sealed vacuumed frozen coffees instead. I
guarantee it would be a far fresher product. But would cost more so
won't/hasn't happened.
	
<Snip>
Mike.  Not sure why you're doing that.
<Snip>
Didn't want to seem to be making a personal attack and since anyone is able
to make changes to the wiki thought it more appropriate. No offense
intended.
<Snip>
or too implicit from what I drafted in the wiki section regarding edits, was
that all people would be welcome to revise words and we would collectively
try not to step on each other's toes.  I do remember revising the section
you referred to above, but I didn't think I removed any information.  If it
was me, it was absolutely unintentional; if it was a combined effort, it
probably was unintentional. 
<Snip>
It might make sense to require a posters permission be needed before anyone
at random can change or delete someone else's posted information. Don't know
if it's possible. Don't know if it's necessary or advisable either. 
<Snip>
name.  I'm not hard up either way on whether or not its there, but I thought
relating the Wiki to this group would help build a sense of list community.
I've not heard back from Tom yet on the matter.  
<Snip>
Better to ask after the fact than not at all!
<Snip>
anything further
		to do with said wiki unless the current course it's taking
changes.
<Snip>
<Snip>
and knowledge (I think the list in general does too) and would miss your
input.  But I don't think the Wiki should be a slave to any individual who
immediately delivers ultimatums without even initiating a discussion first.
Enough said about that. 
<Snip>
Call it an ultimatum if you wish. I didn't mean it that way but see that it
could have been taken as such.  What really set me off was the integrity
attack on a long time coffee professional and innovator like Michael Sivetz.
The same guy who pioneered the most commonly used roasting method of home
roasters, fluid bed roasting. Besides if I chose to not participate with the
wiki it wouldn't be a slave to me, I'd be a slave to my bull headedness;-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

7) From: Steve Hay
Thanks, Mike and Jason.  As I see others add stuff it makes me kind of
excited this might actually work.
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

8) From: Justin Marquez
On 7/19/06, Steve Hay  wrote:
<Snip>
Steven -
Consider this... this list is comprised of highly intelligent,
motivated, opinionated tinkerers with a passion for great coffee.  Why
would we not expect the FAQ modifications to reflect that, good or
bad?
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)

9) From: Angelo
If the door's a jar, just make sure you have the lid on tight.
<Snip>


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