HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Love the new Vetrano (31 msgs / 868 lines)
1) From: Mike Chester
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
My new Vetrano arrive yesterday afternoon and it is a beautiful piece of =
shinny stainless steel.  I got a substantial discount on this particular =
unit because it has two "dents."  This will sound like miKe's =
description of his Bric, but the dents are so tiny and inconsequential =
that if you did not know they were there and went looking for them, you =
would never see them.  
I hooked up the water supply last night and filled the boiler.  The =
rotary pump is very quiet and I had to listen carefully to tell when it =
shut off.  I pulled my very first shot with it today and it works great. =
 I would rate the shot at 85 percentile of the best shot I ever pulled =
with the modified Sylvia, and much better than any I pulled with it =
prior to modification.  Since I have never used a HX machine before and =
don't know the fine points of a cooling flush,  I consider this to be a =
very good shot.  
BTW - I have a question about the cooling flush.  Should I lift the =
lever far enough to turn on the pump during the flush, or just enough to =
open the valve and let off the steam / too hot water?  
I have not tried steaming yet, but it looks like it will be a snap.  =
Everything about the machine is massive and heavy compared to the =
Sylvia, and it was not flimsy in the least.  I barely have room for it, =
my grinder and knock box on my small Espresso counter, but it does all =
fit.  It is too tall to use the cup warmer and still fit it under the =
upper cabinet, but I can warm the cup as I do the cooling flush so that =
should not be much of a hardship.    
I think that I will appreciate the dual pressure gauge when I try to =
fine tune my shots.  The shot pressure reading will give me dynamic =
feedback of the actual pressure levels during the extraction, rather =
than the static pressure of using a portafilter gauge to dead head the =
pump. 
I will try to post some pictures over the weekend.
Mike Chester

2) From: Mike Chester
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    It is too tall to use the cup warmer and still fit it under the =
upper cabinet, but I can warm the cup as I do the cooling flush so that =
should not be much of a hardship.    
  Sorry for replying to my own post, but I have looked at the height =
again and real espresso and cap. cups will fit.  The cups that I am =
currently using are too tall to fit.  I guess I will have to break down =
and buy the "real thing."  
  Mike

3) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
You might want to check if the rising heat from the cup warmers will =
damage your cabinets. It was my wife's first concern when we got the =
Brewtus. Lot's of luck with the upgrade. It's amazing how much your =
shots improve. Thought the PID Silvia was my terminal machine also

4) From: Michael Dhabolt
Mike,
After complete machine warm up (20 minutes to an hour - depending on
the machine) the initial flush is fairly substantial.  Yes, with the
pump on.  Initial pre-flush on my Astoria is around 7 oz., miKes Bric
needs about a 9 oz. pre-flush.  You'll need to play with your machine
awhile to figure out what is right for your machine.  A realy good
'primer' on how to figure this out for your machine is at:http://home-barista.com/hx-love.htmlHaving access to a PF mounted TC (such as the Scace unit) is pretty
much a necessity to quantify your results. The process itself,
explained in the above link, will get you to where you want to be, and
allow you to establish a procedure that will be easily replicated.
Mike (just plain)

5) From: miKe mcKoffee
Again, congrats on your new Vetrano!
As Mike (just plain) alluded different HX machines need a different cooling
flush. And even the same machine will require different cooling flush with
different boiler pressure (and hence temp) setting. (Each 0.1bar boiler
pressure equates to about 1.4f difference)
I started with a 10oz cooling flush with the Bricoletta when I was running
1.2-1.3bar swing. Been running 1.0-1.1 swing for some time to shorten flash
before flush count & go and now using cooling flush of 8oz. But that's with
the Bricoletta's HX system not the Vetrano's so don't know what your
suggested cooling flushes are!
The article referenced talks primarily about the HX surf method of flush &
rebound (wait to come back up to temp). Using the Scace Thermofilter I've
found doing first an initial cooling flush, then PF build, followed by flush
to end of flash and immediately pulling yields ~206f shot. Each one one
thousand count from end of flash drops shot temp ~1f. Successive shots in a
series simply flash flush count & go. Shot series includes post shot group
head flush after each shot. Mines actually almost 4oz because I flush, PF
with blank wiggle flush and flush again. I like a clean group! FWIW I don't
watch the flash but listen, with a cup up by the group tilted out towards me
to reflect the sound. It's obvious by sound when flash ends. (Flash actually
being HX super heated above boiling temp water hitting the brew group) If
you attempt to use the flash flush & go method and hear no flash on the
first shot safe to say your cooling flush was too long and/or didn't want
long enough to rebound. Bric's good to go ~30sec after cooling flush or
between shots even with about 4oz post shot group flush. The Vetrano may not
rebound as fast between shots with it's ~30% less heater power. I'm sure
you'll be having fun and playing with it lots of shots!
Yeah, machines this class are night and day compared to Silvia, even though
Silvia great quality for her class. And once you get dialed in with the
Vetrano suspect you'll find shots beyond what Silvia could ever do, at least
I have with the Bric'!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

6) From: Tara Kollas
For those who have gone from vibe to rotary pump, do you believe the rotary
pump improves the espresso or is the main contribution a quieter machine?
<Snip>

7) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Rotary pump is said to add clarity to the shot from the vibe pump. There =
is a difference to the shot.I find the rotary pump to make the shot a =
little too bright for my taste. Although that could be just that I am so =
used to shots pulled with a vibe pump. The vibe pump is noisier but not =
annoyingly so. Personally, I would not let the type of pump a machine =
has influence my purchase.

8) From: europachris
I have a La Valentina myself (Fluid-o-Tech vibe pump with 9 bar pressure regulation), but I've had a LOT of coffee from a 1st generation Reneka Techno, which is a rotary machine.
 
In all cases, I find rotary pump espresso to be smoother and more flavorful.  Vibe pump coffee always seems to have more of a 'bite', regardless of roast level, brew temp, grinder quality, etc. 
 
I've also noticed the same qualities of a rotary machine from lever machines.
 
That said, I'm still extremely pleased with my Valentina, and have no aspirations (yet) to upgrade....
Chris

9) From: Tara Kollas
Thanks - eventually I want to upgrade - but I'm still waffling about what I
want - probably a olympia cremina when I can afford one.  But I was curious
about the vibe/rotary difference.  Sometimes, I think my Gaggia could wake
the dead, so anything would be quieter by comparison!
On 7/31/06, europachris  wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Brett Mason
One reviewer posted that rotary pump machines have a smoother espresso
than a vibe pump.  I took my UNIC Diva apart last night, so it's all
over one end of the sun room.  Lots of scale crud to work out (anybody
know how to best clean a 15 yr old tank?  Nothing that will kill me
when we brew, OK?
Big Ole Rotary pump, big pieces, old HARD cracked gasket (two more on
order now)...  But I am making headway.  People seem to love these old
UNIC machines, I am getting fonder of mine.  Will be nice to turn the
corner from old-fixer-upper-put-the-money-here to makes-nice-espresso
... Can't wait.
And Debbie deserves her sunroom back...
Brett
On 8/1/06, Tara Kollas  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
   Zassman

11) From: Dave Brandes
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I suspect the root cause of any difference people see between the extraction
produced by a vibratory pump and a rotary pump is due to the pulsed delivery
of a vibratory pump vs. the smoother delivery of a rotary.  The pulsed
delivery will likely produce a deeper extraction from the grind, both from
more turbulence and from the pressure pulses pulling more from within the
coffee grounds.
 
My 2.5 cents.
 
Dave  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
europachris
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 4:13 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Love the new Vetrano
I have a La Valentina myself (Fluid-o-Tech vibe pump with 9 bar pressure
regulation), but I've had a LOT of coffee from a 1st generation Reneka
Techno, which is a rotary machine.
 
In all cases, I find rotary pump espresso to be smoother and more flavorful.
Vibe pump coffee always seems to have more of a 'bite', regardless of roast
level, brew temp, grinder quality, etc. 
 
I've also noticed the same qualities of a rotary machine from lever
machines.
 
That said, I'm still extremely pleased with my Valentina, and have no
aspirations (yet) to upgrade....
Chris

12) From: Michael Wascher
I had good luck using concentrated lemon juice. Strained through a fine mesh
to remove all pulp & other debris.
I used it straight on items I could access easily -- so that I could with
certainty flush thoroughly. It made a cruddy water reservoir look like new.
I diluted with 1 to 2 parts water to run through the system. Alternately ran
the pump through the portafilter & the steam wand until about a cup was
used. Then let it sit for an hour. I repeated until the reservoir was empty.
I then ran a reservoir of plain water through, without the lengthy pauses.
On 8/1/06, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we
don't know." --  Ambrose Bierce

13) From: Les
I pulled comparison shots today from my SAMA lever machine and my
Expobar using Alchimist's Trifecta Blend.  I pulled both shots at
202.5 degrees measured.  I found the lever shot to be much smoother
with less bite and brightness.  It had a much richer flavor as well.
Both were very acceptable shots, but the lever shot was superior.  My
Olympia Cremina should arrive today, Christmas in  August!  I am
looking forward to experiencing Mike's Bric next month.
On 8/1/06, Dave Brandes  wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: miKe mcKoffee
Lemon juice would work, citric acid probably cheaper and what I've usually
heard recommended. (Or Urnex Dezcal sold specifically for descaling but
that's definitely not cheaper and basically the same thing as citric acid.)
Available at brewers supply houses. Useage 2T per qt water for makiny your
scaling solution. Getting ready to descale the Bricoletta for the first time
and just checked locally, $1.25 for 2oz $4.99 for a pound. Vinegar will sort
of work, not as well as citric acid and funky potential residual taste.
An HX machine need to descale both HX line and boiler. Boiler need to defeat
the autofill and completely fill the boiler with solution to above the main
scale line inside the boiler. Here's a thread on home-barista forum that
talks about it:http://www.home-barista.com/forums/viewtopic.php?tu1Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Michael Wascher
	Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:22 AM
	
	I had good luck using concentrated lemon juice. Strained through a
fine mesh to remove all pulp & other debris.
	
	I used it straight on items I could access easily -- so that I could
with certainty flush thoroughly. It made a cruddy water reservoir look like
new. 
	
	I diluted with 1 to 2 parts water to run through the system.
Alternately ran the pump through the portafilter & the steam wand until
about a cup was used. Then let it sit for an hour. I repeated until the
reservoir was empty. I then ran a reservoir of plain water through, without
the lengthy pauses.
	
	On 8/1/06, Brett Mason  wrote: 
		One reviewer posted that rotary pump machines have a
smoother espresso
		than a vibe pump.  I took my UNIC Diva apart last night, so
it's all
		over one end of the sun room.  Lots of scale crud to work
out (anybody
		know how to best clean a 15 yr old tank?  Nothing that will
kill me 
		when we brew, OK?
		
		Big Ole Rotary pump, big pieces, old HARD cracked gasket
(two more on
		order now)...  But I am making headway.  People seem to love
these old
		UNIC machines, I am getting fonder of mine.  Will be nice to
turn the 
		corner from old-fixer-upper-put-the-money-here to
makes-nice-espresso
		... Can't wait.
		
		And Debbie deserves her sunroom back...
		Brett

15) From: Michael Dhabolt
Les,
I hope you are planning on bringing the Olympia with you next month.
I've made a point of staying far away from their machines for quite
some time - I have horrible sales resistance to some toys.
Is your Expobar a vibratory pump or a rotary?
Mike (just plain)

16) From: Les
My Expobar is a vibratory pump.  If the Olympia is working well I will
bring it.  It is new to me, but a 1970's vintage model.
Les
On 8/1/06, Michael Dhabolt  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Michael Wascher
Some manufacturers (e.g. the manual for the Esto Profi & Barista) claim that
vinegar will damage the machine, though citric acid is deemed safe.
On 8/1/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we
don't know." --  Ambrose Bierce

18) From: Steven Sobel
I find this very perplexing.  Citric Acid has a pH of 3.5; vinegar's pH is
4.0.  Other than having to rinse additionally to remove the odor/taste of
vinegar, I'm not sure why it can't be used.
By the way, my Gaggia's manual also says no vinegar but Cleancaf is okay.
Haven't been able to figure that out.
On 8/1/06, Michael Wascher  wrote:
<Snip>

19) From: Obrien, Haskell W.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Acetic acid AKA vinegar can dissolve copper.
 
Will
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Steven Sobel
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:52 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Love the new Vetrano
 
I find this very perplexing.  Citric Acid has a pH of 3.5; vinegar's pH
is 4.0.  Other than having to rinse additionally to remove the
odor/taste of vinegar, I'm not sure why it can't be used.
 
By the way, my Gaggia's manual also says no vinegar but Cleancaf is
okay.  Haven't been able to figure that out.
 
On 8/1/06, Michael Wascher  wrote: 
Some manufacturers (e.g. the manual for the Esto Profi & Barista) claim
that vinegar will damage the machine, though citric acid is deemed safe.
 
On 8/1/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
Lemon juice would work, citric acid probably cheaper and what I've
usually
heard recommended. (Or Urnex Dezcal sold specifically for descaling but 
that's definitely not cheaper and basically the same thing as citric
acid.) 
Available at brewers supply houses. Useage 2T per qt water for makiny
your
scaling solution. Getting ready to descale the Bricoletta for the first
time 
and just checked locally, $1.25 for 2oz $4.99 for a pound. Vinegar will
sort 
of work, not as well as citric acid and funky potential residual taste.
An HX machine need to descale both HX line and boiler. Boiler need to
defeat 
the autofill and completely fill the boiler with solution to above the
main 
scale line inside the boiler. Here's a thread on home-barista forum that
talks about it:http://www.home-barista.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=751
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I
must 
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal
enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone
before.
        From: homeroast-admin 
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Michael
Wascher 
        Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:22 AM 
        I had good luck using concentrated lemon juice. Strained through
a
fine mesh to remove all pulp & other debris.
        I used it straight on items I could access easily -- so that I
could 
with certainty flush thoroughly. It made a cruddy water reservoir look
like
new.
        I diluted with 1 to 2 parts water to run through the system.
Alternately ran the pump through the portafilter & the steam wand until 
about a cup was used. Then let it sit for an hour. I repeated until the
reservoir was empty. I then ran a reservoir of plain water through,
without
the lengthy pauses.
        On 8/1/06, Brett Mason < homeroast> wrote:
                One reviewer posted that rotary pump machines have a
smoother espresso
                than a vibe pump.  I took my UNIC Diva apart last night,
so
it's all
                over one end of the sun room.  Lots of scale crud to
work
out (anybody
                know how to best clean a 15 yr old tank?  Nothing that
will 
kill me
                when we brew, OK?
                Big Ole Rotary pump, big pieces, old HARD cracked gasket
(two more on
                order now)...  But I am making headway.  People seem to
love 
these old
                UNIC machines, I am getting fonder of mine.  Will be
nice to
turn the
                corner from old-fixer-upper-put-the-money-here to
makes-nice-espresso
                ... Can't wait. 
                And Debbie deserves her sunroom back...
                Brett-- 
"There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we
don't know." --  Ambrose Bierce 
 

20) From: Cameron Forde
Citric acid is better able to dissolve the scale as it forms a chelate
with the calcium.  Vinegar (acetic acid) can't form a chelate.
Cameron
On 8/1/06, Steven Sobel  wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: J.W.Bullfrog
Brett Mason wrote:
<Snip>
Well, when I got my Faema Compact it was completely scaled. I pulled the 
boiler and dumped it in a bucket with CLR, Puro-Cafe and dish soap. 
Pulled it out after 12 -18 hours flushed the scale out of it, and put it 
back in. Did that twice more over a 36 -48 hour period. That was 3 -4 
years ago and I'm still alive (and no stranger then before I did this).
-- 
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers 
exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will 
instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more 
bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

22) From: Brett Mason
Since I have the UNIC Diva apart, waiting for a new grouphead gasket,
I've already cleaned up the valves for the water and steam.  Maybe
tonight I will pull the boiler and do a descale with lemon juice...
This is huge - it's as big as a football!
Thanks all for the good input.  Sweet Espresso Soon....
Brett
On 8/2/06, J.W.Bullfrog  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
   Zassman

23) From: J.W.Bullfrog
Brett Mason wrote:
<Snip>
yep, my was 3 or 4 liter. About the size of a gallon jug,
<Snip>
-- 
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers 
exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will 
instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more 
bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

24) From: Angelo
My local Cimbali dealer recommended Cream of Tartar...Not sure where 
you can get it. Supermarket prices are ridiculous!
<Snip>

25) From: Brett Mason
6 litre in mine.  And NASTY CRUD inside...
On 8/2/06, J.W.Bullfrog  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Regards,
Brett Mason
 HomeRoast
   Zassman

26) From: raymanowen
"Some manufacturers (e.g. the manual for the Esto Profi & Barista) claim
that vinegar will damage the machine"
Of course, Vinegar (acetic acid) will damage* an espresso machine.
Especially if They sell some snake oil concoction you have to use quarterly.
For the timid, the latter plan will probably lead to better shots. Most
acids will form soluble salts with the undesirable barnacles. You can
neutralize excess acids and rinse them completely away afterward.
In any case, don't run your machine to oblivion. If you have doubts about
the cheaper alternatives, use Urnex, or whatever.
Acids are so soluble, you could take them away with 2 - 3 exchanges of
Distilled H2O and titrate the effluent with Litmus if you're picky picky.
Ask the man who owns one at a genuine coffee shop, not the McDreck chain
employees.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

27) From: miKe mcKoffee
Actually non-McDreck espresso machine technicians also say not to use
vinegar. All acids are not created equal and affect different metals
differently. At 4 to $5 per POUND for citric acid from a Brewer's supply,
and only using 2T per Qt for descaling solution, that's a lot of descaling
sessions for $5! Urnex dezcal descaler does cost much more in those
individual packets and though it's main active ingredient is citric acid, it
also has sulfamic acid so not identical to straight citric. Talked to a tech
at Chris' Coffee about the effective difference, he'd never heard of
sulfamic acid so unknown.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
raymanowen
	Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 1:37 PM
	
	"Some manufacturers (e.g. the manual for the Esto Profi & Barista)
claim that vinegar will damage the machine"
	
	Of course, Vinegar (acetic acid) will damage* an espresso machine.
Especially if They sell some snake oil concoction you have to use quarterly.
	For the timid, the latter plan will probably lead to better shots.
Most acids will form soluble salts with the undesirable barnacles. You can
neutralize excess acids and rinse them completely away afterward. 
	
	In any case, don't run your machine to oblivion. If you have doubts
about the cheaper alternatives, use Urnex, or whatever.
	
	Acids are so soluble, you could take them away with 2 - 3 exchanges
of Distilled H2O and titrate the effluent with Litmus if you're picky picky.
	Ask the man who owns one at a genuine coffee shop, not the McDreck
chain employees.
	
	Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
	--

28) From: raymanowen
Wikipedia  has an article on
sulfamic acid.
Wow! It would be like an afterburner, compared to the citric acid.
Or, would the citric acid and a salt buffer the stronger sulfamic acid? They
might have to, with OSFA packets...
Again, I will say it- "Ask the man who Owns one, and makes his reputation on
the Nectar of the Beans."
This discussion begs the question: If "non-McDreck espresso machine
technicians also say not to use vinegar", How Come these same machine techs
have clients that incessantly pull some of the world's worst Bilge Water
shots and sell it as espresso with a straight face?
The fix for that is sugar, flavorings, strups and bovine lactate.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"A camel makes an elephant feel like a jet plane." - -Jackie Kennedy

29) From: miKe mcKoffee
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
raymanowen
	Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 4:02 PM
<Snip>
technicians also say not to use vinegar", How Come these same machine techs
have clients that incessantly pull some of the world's worst Bilge Water
shots and sell it as espresso with a straight face? 
<Snip>
	
<Snip>
Blaming those who sell, repair, and or tune an espresso machine for Bilge
Water shots coming out of the machine is like blaming a grill manufacturer
when you get a leathery dried out well done steak when you ordered it medium
rare. Both cases product served would get sent back BTW!!!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

30) From: Dave Brandes
I don't think sulfamic adds anything to the effectiveness of a boiler
descaling solution for espresso machines.  It's used as an acidic cleaning
agent, typically for metals and ceramics, as a replacement for hydrochloric
acid for the removal of rust.  The most famous applicaton of sulfamic acid
is in the synthesis of compounds that taste sweet. Reaction with
cyclohexylamine followed by addition of sodium hydroxode gives the sweetner
sodium cyclamate.
Dave

31) From: raymanowen
Got a QA gig this morning, but 10 years ago, when I had my first- and I was
sure, last- double espresso shot in a jazz venue, I loved the jazz but
thought I'd never bother with espresso in my life.
I was too intimidated to send it back and risk the damn noise again during
music I wanted to hear. A no-brainer. Never had time for another until
recently. Now I'm the barista and I'd better straight get it right for the
Celtic Critic. She analyzes and evaluates my sludge...
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?


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