HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Water for the perfect cup (30 msgs / 876 lines)
1) From: Scjgb3
I have seen a lot about the roast of the coffee, cooldown, etc. But, what  
about the water that you use. how many use tap water? bottled water, or  
filtered.
 

2) From: Derek Bradford
Bottled.  Korean tapwater is gross.  Depends, though...in Canada, on a
well, where I really enjoy the water, I use the well water.
Otherwise, I use bottled.  I'm not a fan of city-supplied tap water
(generally speaking).
On 7/28/06, Scjgb3  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
The Uglyroast 3! Coffee Roaster.  ...Now 85% less ugly!http://uglyroast.atspace.com

3) From: Steve Hay
Filtered, Brita.  Alexandria, VA.  Bottled would probably be slightly
better.
Water makes a *HUGE* difference, IMHO.
On 7/28/06, Scjgb3  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

4) From: Michael Wascher
Tap water, run through a sediment/charcoal filter.
On 7/28/06, Scjgb3  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we
don't know." --  Ambrose Bierce

5) From: miKe mcKoffee
See the "Insanely Long Water FAQ"
http://tinyurl.com/mee4eKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Scjgb3
	Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 5:08 AM
	
		I have seen a lot about the roast of the coffee, cooldown,
etc. But, what about the water that you use. how many use tap water? bottled
water, or filtered.

6) From: TERRY TITSWORTH
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I primarily use filtered tape water for my brewing. I have an under sink
AMERICAN STANDARD unit that I installed that uses a carbon/fiber filter
cartridge. Takes out all the fish smell from our local 80+ year old
lake, even during periods of the lake 'turning over' as they say. The
taste is better IMHO than the bottled stuff from around here, and I only
pay a few nickels a hundred gallons verses $6.00 to $8.00 a gallon for a
trash can full of empty plastic bottles. But then again I don't do
espresso yet. Well, not the real stuff.
My original investment for the filter system was around $20.00, that
would cover about 30-35 gallons of Wally-World water, or 4 cartons of
the foofoo bottled stuff. 
By the way, I here they found a new cocktail from france, Perrier and
water...could be a rumor.
 
Take care... TerryT  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
Scjgb3
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 7:08 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: +Water for the perfect cup
 
I have seen a lot about the roast of the coffee, cooldown, etc. But,
what about the water that you use. how many use tap water? bottled
water, or filtered.
 
 

7) From: Daniel Sortwell
"Insanely Long Water FAQ" is a good place to start and has a lot of information on what to do if the water has high calcium levels. I have the opposite situation - the tap water here in NC has about 28 ppm hardness and 23 ppm alkalinity, at least according to the annual water quality report that I get in the mail.
To increase these levels closer to the ideal of 90 ppm hardness and 50 ppm alkalinity, I add 55 ml. of Gerolsteiner mineral water to 3 liters of water in the Zojirushi CD-LCC30 water dispensing pot that keeps the water at 175°F for my Aeropress.
I figure that results in water with 50 ppm alkalinity and 52 ppm hardness. Any higher and the alkalinity would be over the 50 ppm target.
My own tastings of the difference between tap water and the water augmented with mineral water is that the augmented water results in a "crisper" cup of coffee, less flat. 
Similar to the difference in taste between Aquafina water, which contains no minerals, and Dasani water, which contains minerals.
Regards,
Dan

8) From:
water, 
WOW, great question.
I kinda put it up there on the top since I CAN, if need be grind what I need with rock and filter through TP in the forest.
water for coffee.
an illy cup collection says, no water, no coffee...
I use filtered water, no tap since it is stepped on way to many times before it comes out of your tap. I always have better coffee if I use filtered water.
Just my take.
ginny
---- Scjgb3 wrote: 
<Snip>

9) From: Spencer Thomas
Under-sink carbon filter, Ann Arbor tap water.  Under-sink filter removes
the occasional "swampy" odor, plus at least some of the cloramine.  Tap
water is well mineralized but not overly hard.
On 7/28/06, Scjgb3  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
=Spencer in Ann Arbor
My Unitarian Jihad http://tinyurl.com/6valr)Name is:
Sibling Dagger of Mild Reason
What are you?http://homepage.mac.com/whump/ujname.html

10) From: Justin Marquez
On 7/28/06, Scjgb3  wrote:
<Snip>
The RV parl where we presently abide in the RV has two deep wells and
chlorinates the water.  I load the water into the drip maker the night
before and allow the chlorine to outgas.  Before we sold the house and
moved in here, we had our own deep well out in the country, which had
the best water I've tasted almost anywhere.
We are moving back to Houston, TX in Sept and I plan to use tap water,
charcoal filtered, at that point.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (Snyder, TX)

11) From: Barry Luterman
Water from the tap in Hawaii works fine. Heck we bottle it right from the 
tap and sell it to the mainlanders.Truthfully, I think water makes all the 
difference. Else why is the Hairbender I make in my own home so much better 
than the Hairbender I buy brewed at Stumptown. Also when I travel with my 
Homebrew, Zass 169 and FP it never even comes close to the same brew made in 
Hawaii.

12) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
Nah must your imagination. You're just happy & mellow from the constant not
too hot not too cold sunshine you are continually exposed to:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

13) From: Barry Luterman
And gentle trade winds,sunrises, sunsets, Aloha attitude,Fresh Fish and 
living on a beach that is consistently voted in the  top 10 beaches in the 
world. Oh and did I mention The Brute. Life is good

14) From: Andy Thomas
--- Scjgb3 wrote:
<Snip>
I use filtered water from the vending machine at the
local spermarket ($.35/gallon). The tap water here
tastes awful.
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

15) From: Sandy Andina
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If it's from the "spermarket" wouldn't it taste even worse than the  
awful tap water? (Not taking it any further than that, BTW).
On Jul 29, 2006, at 12:58 AM, Andy Thomas wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
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If it's from the "spermarket" wouldn't it taste even worse than the awful tap water? (Not taking it any further than that, BTW).
On Jul 29, 2006, at 12:58 AM, Andy Thomas wrote:

I use filtered water from the vending machine at the

local spermarket ($.35/gallon). The tap water here

tastes awful.

Sandy Andinawww.sandyandina.com --Apple-Mail-72--244484786--

16) From: Gerald and Beth Newsom
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I'm with you, Sandy.  I wouldn't drink that water either.  :-)
Gerald

17) From: javafool
The city water here is Clearwater leaves a lot to be desired as far as
flavor, and it is also high in mineral and iron content. For several =
years I
have been using bottled spring water for all of my coffee.
About a year ago we installed a water softener, but that did not improve =
the
flavor of the water very much. So I installed a GE SmartWater filter =
beside
the water faucet. The SmartWater filter is basically a porous carbon =
block
filter with fine fiber filter covering. We also got a new refrigerator =
with
a built-in water filter similar in composition to the SmartFilter.
So now I am using a softened, double charcoal filtered water from the
refrigerator door for my coffee and it is great. There are still =
minerals in
the water but the chlorine and swamp water flavors are absent.
Terry

18) From: Ed Needham
Ahhh, the joys of living on a volcano in the middle of the Pacific...
(g)
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

19) From: Steve Hay
I was looking into this water thing.  How complicated.  The systems look
like they can be quite expensive, depending on what is wanted.  The "best"
system, RO, has one major downfall which is that it removes minerals from
the water which impart flavors and prevent leeching of minerals from the
body.  Based on this, it appears some kind of multi-stage filtering
mechanism is the best way to go.  These can either be installed for the
whole house or just at the sink where you want it.  If at the whole house, I
wonder if things can grow in your pipes where water might sit for a
while...  Anyhoo.  The quest for water looks like a somewhat complicated
one, if one wants to go beyond using the Brita or bottled water.
Anyone played with this at all?  The water here in DC is bad enough it might
be worth it for me to get one of those whole-house systems and improve water
everywhere in the house.
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

20) From: Scott Marquardt
We're spoiled in Chicago, drinking Lake Michigan water. Awesome stuff. An
undercounter Aquasana (carbon) removes Chlorine and any weirdness that might
show up from time to time. Makes great coffee. Bottled water from stores
around here is generally worse, IMO. To this day I don't understand why so
much of it sells. Someone's marketing is engendering way too much stupidity.
We joke for decades about selling the Arabs sand, then we end up buying
bottled water that's worse than our tap.   :-/
On 7/28/06, Scjgb3  wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: Sandy Andina
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Dechlorinated and de-zebra-musselized Lake Michigan water is still  
harder than some bottled spring (not filtered muni water like  
Aquafina or Dasani) waters.  Cafe West tech support recommended  
Crystal Geyser for my Livia and Silvia. So does Jim Schulman, the  
Fount of All Water For Espresso Knowledge, who lives in Hyde Park and  
also has Lake Michigan tapwater.
On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:50 AM, Scott Marquardt wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
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Dechlorinated and =
de-zebra-musselized Lake Michigan water is still harder than some =
bottled spring (not filtered muni water like Aquafina or Dasani) =
waters.  Cafe West tech support recommended Crystal Geyser for my =
Livia and Silvia. So does Jim Schulman, the Fount of All Water For =
Espresso Knowledge, who lives in Hyde Park and also has Lake Michigan =
tapwater.  
On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:50 AM, Scott =
Marquardt wrote:
We're spoiled in Chicago, drinking Lake Michigan water. = Awesome stuff. An undercounter Aquasana (carbon) removes Chlorine and = any weirdness that might show up from time to time. Makes great coffee. = Bottled water from stores around here is generally worse, IMO. To this = day I don't understand why so much of it sells. Someone's marketing is = engendering way too much stupidity. We joke for decades about selling = the Arabs sand, then we end up buying bottled water that's worse than = our tap.   :-/ On 7/28/06, = Scjgb3 <Scjgb3> wrote: = I have seen a lot = about the roast of the coffee, cooldown, etc. But, what about the water = that you use. how many use tap water? bottled water, or filtered. =   =   = --Apple-Mail-84--78416620--

22) From: David Schooley
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I have tried a number of different bottled waters and settled on  
filtered (Pur) tap water from Lake Michigan. The DuPage Water  
Commission buys water from the Chicago Water Department, so I get  
basically the same stuff as Sandy and Scott. (The well water around  
here is to be avoided.) I use distilled water to dilute filtered tap  
water from 8 grains down to 3 for espresso. The Technivorm gets  
filtered water from the tap. For drinking and other coffee devices, I  
double filter using a Brita pitcher. The TV doesn't get water from  
the Brita because I refrigerate the pitcher and I suspect the TV does  
not work as well with cold water in the reservoir.
On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:07 AM, Sandy Andina wrote:
<Snip>
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I have tried a number of =
different bottled waters and settled on filtered (Pur) tap water from =
Lake Michigan. The DuPage Water Commission buys water from the Chicago =
Water Department, so I get basically the same stuff as Sandy and Scott. =
(The well water around here is to be avoided.) I use distilled water to =
dilute filtered tap water from 8 grains down to 3 for espresso. The =
Technivorm gets filtered water from the tap. For drinking and other =
coffee devices, I double filter using a Brita pitcher. The TV doesn't =
get water from the Brita because I refrigerate the pitcher and I suspect =
the TV does not work as well with cold water in the =
reservoir. 
On Jul 31, 2006, = at 12:07 AM, Sandy Andina wrote:
Dechlorinated and de-zebra-musselized Lake Michigan water = is still harder than some bottled spring (not filtered muni water like = Aquafina or Dasani) waters.  Cafe West tech support recommended = Crystal Geyser for my Livia and Silvia. So does Jim Schulman, the Fount = of All Water For Espresso Knowledge, who lives in Hyde Park and also has = Lake Michigan tapwater.   On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:50 AM, = Scott Marquardt wrote:
We're = spoiled in Chicago, drinking Lake Michigan water. Awesome stuff. An = undercounter Aquasana (carbon) removes Chlorine and any weirdness that = might show up from time to time. Makes great coffee. Bottled water from = stores around here is generally worse, IMO. To this day I don't = understand why so much of it sells. Someone's marketing is engendering = way too much stupidity. We joke for decades about selling the Arabs = sand, then we end up buying bottled water that's worse than our tap.  = :-/ On 7/28/06, Scjgb3 <Scjgb3> wrote: = I have seen a lot = about the roast of the coffee, cooldown, etc. But, what about the water = that you use. how many use tap water? bottled water, or filtered. =   =   = --Apple-Mail-4--74905370--

23) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
This "mineral leaching" is not important if your choice is city water vs.
distilled or RO. City water in the major metropolitan areas has most of the
healthy minerals removed and aluminum, chlorine, and fluorine added. Some
health "experts" on radio recommend drinking only distilled water. Oddly
enough, among their advertisers is usually a supplier of distillation
systems.
Separate your drinking water and household water. Fortunately for me, my
untreated well water has low hardness and is perfect for drinking. So I have
no experience in household water treatment except whole house filtration.
Bugs do grow in filters handling non-chlorinated water, but taste problems
only occur for me when the filter needs changed, usually every 3 or 4
months.
--

24) From: Vicki Smith
Our water changes substantially over the course of a year. Our water 
source is the Red Deer River, and in the spring, when there is big time 
melt off from the mountains, the water tastes better. I use a Britta 
filter all year long, but the taste still varies.
Vicki

25) From: Sandy Andina
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For my Technivorm I draw filtered water from my new fridge's tap (it  
has a Brita/Pur-type filter holder built in)--haven't needed to  
descale yet, but it's more forgiving than an espresso machine.
On Jul 31, 2006, at 2:05 AM, David Schooley wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
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For my Technivorm I draw =
filtered water from my new fridge's tap (it has a Brita/Pur-type filter =
holder built in)--haven't needed to descale yet, but it's more forgiving =
than an espresso machine.
On Jul 31, 2006, at 2:05 AM, =
David Schooley wrote:
I = have tried a number of different bottled waters and settled on filtered = (Pur) tap water from Lake Michigan. The DuPage Water Commission buys = water from the Chicago Water Department, so I get basically the same = stuff as Sandy and Scott. (The well water around here is to be avoided.) = I use distilled water to dilute filtered tap water from 8 grains down to = 3 for espresso. The Technivorm gets filtered water from the tap. For = drinking and other coffee devices, I double filter using a Brita = pitcher. The TV doesn't get water from the Brita because I refrigerate = the pitcher and I suspect the TV does not work as well with cold water = in the reservoir. 
On Jul 31, 2006, = at 12:07 AM, Sandy Andina wrote:
Dechlorinated and de-zebra-musselized Lake Michigan water = is still harder than some bottled spring (not filtered muni water like = Aquafina or Dasani) waters.  Cafe West tech support recommended = Crystal Geyser for my Livia and Silvia. So does Jim Schulman, the Fount = of All Water For Espresso Knowledge, who lives in Hyde Park and also has = Lake Michigan tapwater.   On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:50 AM, = Scott Marquardt wrote:
We're = spoiled in Chicago, drinking Lake Michigan water. Awesome stuff. An = undercounter Aquasana (carbon) removes Chlorine and any weirdness that = might show up from time to time. Makes great coffee. Bottled water from = stores around here is generally worse, IMO. To this day I don't = understand why so much of it sells. Someone's marketing is engendering = way too much stupidity. We joke for decades about selling the Arabs = sand, then we end up buying bottled water that's worse than our tap.  = :-/ On 7/28/06, Scjgb3 <Scjgb3> wrote: = I have seen a lot = about the roast of the coffee, cooldown, etc. But, what about the water = that you use. how many use tap water? bottled water, or filtered. =   =   Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.com = --Apple-Mail-88--46257145--

26) From: raymanowen
David, you "suspect the TV does not work as well with cold water in the
reservoir."
You pay a few kWh to pull the heat out of the water in the reefer, then you
would spend a few more to put it back, in the TV.
The TV puts out 200° F water for brewing. If it starts out with very cold
water, it will just take a little longer to heat it to the 200° F. I thin=
k
the result would be the same.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?

27) From: Michael Wascher
A town I used to live to in Ohio had a reservoir in need of maintenance.
Winter water was great, spring  was good, fall was OK, but summer water
tasted of algae. At the height of summer a glass of tap water counted as a
serving of vegetables.
When I was still drinking mainstream coffee I used to increase consumption
in summer, as the coffee covered the taste of the water. A good coffee place
opened and I had to start using bottled water for my coffee.
BTW, if you are in NE Ohio and running low on fresh roast
Susan'sis the place for a fix.
On 7/31/06, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we
don't know." --  Ambrose Bierce

28) From: David Schooley
You are right, but the coffee was kind of flat when I tried it. It  
could be something unrelated to the temperature of the water in the  
reservoir, or the way the water tube passes through the reservoir may  =
have something to do with it. The tube and the reservoir are  
insulated from each other, but the water in the tube rises to the  
level of the water in the reservoir when you fill it up. I have  
always wondered how hot that little slug of water gets before it is  
forced up and out. If it stays cold, and I don't know that it does,  
then we may be back to my cold-water-in-the-basket sermon.
It is entirely possible that something else was wrong when I used  
refrigerated water. I think I did it a couple of times and it may  
have been before I fine-tuned my technique, or maybe I just had a bad  =
day. I need to follow my own advice and take some measurements.
On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:11 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>

29) From: David Schooley
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Sandy,
Who carries Crystal Geyser in the Chicago area? The local Jewel  
doesn't have it.
On Jul 31, 2006, at 9:03 AM, Sandy Andina wrote:
<Snip>
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Sandy,
Who carries Crystal Geyser = in the Chicago area? The local Jewel doesn't have = it. On Jul 31, 2006, at 9:03 AM, Sandy Andina = wrote:
For my Technivorm I draw filtered water from my new = fridge's tap (it has a Brita/Pur-type filter holder built in)--haven't = needed to descale yet, but it's more forgiving than an espresso = machine. On Jul 31, 2006, at 2:05 AM, David Schooley = wrote:
I have tried a number of different bottled waters and = settled on filtered (Pur) tap water from Lake Michigan. The DuPage Water = Commission buys water from the Chicago Water Department, so I get = basically the same stuff as Sandy and Scott. (The well water around here = is to be avoided.) I use distilled water to dilute filtered tap water = from 8 grains down to 3 for espresso. The Technivorm gets filtered water = from the tap. For drinking and other coffee devices, I double filter = using a Brita pitcher. The TV doesn't get water from the Brita because I = refrigerate the pitcher and I suspect the TV does not work as well with = cold water in the reservoir. 
On Jul 31, 2006, = at 12:07 AM, Sandy Andina wrote:
Dechlorinated and de-zebra-musselized Lake Michigan water = is still harder than some bottled spring (not filtered muni water like = Aquafina or Dasani) waters.  Cafe West tech support recommended = Crystal Geyser for my Livia and Silvia. So does Jim Schulman, the Fount = of All Water For Espresso Knowledge, who lives in Hyde Park and also has = Lake Michigan tapwater.   On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:50 AM, = Scott Marquardt wrote:
We're = spoiled in Chicago, drinking Lake Michigan water. Awesome stuff. An = undercounter Aquasana (carbon) removes Chlorine and any weirdness that = might show up from time to time. Makes great coffee. Bottled water from = stores around here is generally worse, IMO. To this day I don't = understand why so much of it sells. Someone's marketing is engendering = way too much stupidity. We joke for decades about selling the Arabs = sand, then we end up buying bottled water that's worse than our tap.  = :-/ On 7/28/06, Scjgb3 <Scjgb3> wrote: = I have seen a lot = about the roast of the coffee, cooldown, etc. But, what about the water = that you use. how many use tap water? bottled water, or filtered. =   =   Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.com = = --Apple-Mail-3--1043803993--

30) From: Sandy Andina
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David,
	I usually order it through Peapod, but Wild Oats and Whole Foods  
have it (and sometimes Dominick's).
On Aug 13, 2006, at 4:28 PM, David Schooley wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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David,	I usually =
order it through Peapod, but Wild Oats and Whole Foods have it (and =
sometimes Dominick's).
On Aug 13, 2006, at 4:28 PM, David =
Schooley wrote:
Sandy,
Who carries Crystal Geyser = in the Chicago area? The local Jewel doesn't have = it. On Jul 31, 2006, at 9:03 AM, Sandy Andina = wrote:
For my Technivorm I draw filtered water from my new = fridge's tap (it has a Brita/Pur-type filter holder built in)--haven't = needed to descale yet, but it's more forgiving than an espresso = machine. On Jul 31, 2006, at 2:05 AM, David Schooley = wrote:
I have tried a number of different bottled waters and = settled on filtered (Pur) tap water from Lake Michigan. The DuPage Water = Commission buys water from the Chicago Water Department, so I get = basically the same stuff as Sandy and Scott. (The well water around here = is to be avoided.) I use distilled water to dilute filtered tap water = from 8 grains down to 3 for espresso. The Technivorm gets filtered water = from the tap. For drinking and other coffee devices, I double filter = using a Brita pitcher. The TV doesn't get water from the Brita because I = refrigerate the pitcher and I suspect the TV does not work as well with = cold water in the reservoir. 
On Jul 31, 2006, = at 12:07 AM, Sandy Andina wrote:
Dechlorinated and de-zebra-musselized Lake Michigan water = is still harder than some bottled spring (not filtered muni water like = Aquafina or Dasani) waters.  Cafe West tech support recommended = Crystal Geyser for my Livia and Silvia. So does Jim Schulman, the Fount = of All Water For Espresso Knowledge, who lives in Hyde Park and also has = Lake Michigan tapwater.   On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:50 AM, = Scott Marquardt wrote:
We're = spoiled in Chicago, drinking Lake Michigan water. Awesome stuff. An = undercounter Aquasana (carbon) removes Chlorine and any weirdness that = might show up from time to time. Makes great coffee. Bottled water from = stores around here is generally worse, IMO. To this day I don't = understand why so much of it sells. Someone's marketing is engendering = way too much stupidity. We joke for decades about selling the Arabs = sand, then we end up buying bottled water that's worse than our tap.  = :-/ On 7/28/06, Scjgb3 <Scjgb3> wrote: = I have seen a lot = about the roast of the coffee, cooldown, etc. But, what about the water = that you use. how many use tap water? bottled water, or filtered. =   =   Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.com = = = --Apple-Mail-22--1042082073--


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