HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Fwd: Did you know? (23 msgs / 897 lines)
1) From: raymanowen
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: raymanowen 
Date: Sep 16, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Did you know?
To: lists/mailman/listinfo/homeroast
Funny- whenever somebody opened one of the Big Coffee "Vacuum-sealed" cans,
the vacuum all leaked out, taking coffee aroma with it
The Sharper Image got the same facts when they started marketing their
vacuum canisters, similar to these:
(I wonder how long it takes Fresh Roasted beans or grounds to outgas enough
CO2 to blow the lid off...)
  [image: Black Vacuum Coffee Canister with Pump by VacuVin]
*VacuVin Black Vacuum Coffee Canister with Pump:*
Vacuum-sealed, pre-ground coffee always tastes and smells freshest when it's
first opened. However, if it's not stored properly, it can quickly lose its
intense aroma and flavor. To keep your pre-ground coffee fresh, simply fill
this canister with your favorite blend, close the lid and vacuum-seal it
with the hand-held pump. As you store it away, the smoke gray container also
protects the coffee by blocking out light.
  Material :    Plastic   Dimensions/Size :    4.4" diameter x 6.25"
high  Capacity :   1/2 lb. Coffee or 250 grams of coffee packs
Cleaning & Care :   Dishwasher-safe canister
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or, maybe you aren't supposed to use these things on FRESH ROAST!!!
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

2) From: Sandy Andina
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Already have the pump, for wine bottles. Wonder if it'll work for beans.
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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Already have the pump, for wine bottles. Wonder if it'll work for beans.
 Sandywww.sandyandina.com
--Apple-Mail-132--237042636--

3) From: David T. Borton
http://www.vacuvin.nl/dining_coffeesaver.htmlRE:  Vacuvin products
Sandy,
I had the vacuum wine saver wand and then bought the coffee container
(see above link).
It works superbly.  I am buying more of them because they look so
sharp on the counter and hold such a tight vacuum.
DB
-- 
Lord, it is time. The summer was very big. Lay thy shadow on the sundials,
and on the meadows let the winds go loose. Command the last fruits that
they shall be full; give them another two more southerly days, press them
on to fulfillment and drive the last sweetness into the heavenly wine.
-     Rainer Maria Rilke

4) From: raymanowen
Therein lies my question or concern- The lid is a 15 in² piston, so a sli=
ght
vacuum will hold it securely in place.
As the beans or grounds outgas CO2, it will soon replace the air pumped out=
.
That's good for storage, but as the CO2 continues to evolve, it builds
pressure. There's nothing but vacuum holding the lid in place, and as soon
as the internal pressure goes a little positive, the lid's going to come
off, maybe with a pop.
Why doesn't this happen with wine corks? They're much smaller pistons and
they're jammed in very tightly. 20 psi pressure in a wine bottle only
generates a force on the cork of about 15 pounds, pushing it out.
20 psi in the vacuum canister = 300 pounds pushing the lid off! (I always
get a nice Phoosh! when I loosen the bands on the canning jars where I stor=
e
roast.)
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Ladies and Gentlemen, Start Your Grinders-
On 9/16/06, Sandy Andina  wrote:
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5) From: Steven Sobel
If that is the physics, then wouldn't something like this item,http://cgi.ebay.com/SS-CANISTERS-W-DE-GASSING-VALVE-FOR-COFFEE-ROASTER_W0QQ=itemZ220028314455QQihZ012QQcategoryZ20671QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI=
tem
be
the perfect device?
On 9/16/06, raymanowen  wrote:
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6) From: Sandy Andina
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Thanks, Dave
On Sep 16, 2006, at 9:38 PM, David T. Borton wrote:
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Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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Thanks, Dave
On Sep =
16, 2006, at 9:38 PM, David T. Borton wrote:
http://www.vacuvin.=nl/dining_coffeesaver.html RE:  Vacuvin products I had the vacuum wine saver wand and then bought the = coffee container(see above link). It works = superbly.  I am buying = more of them because they look sosharp on the = counter and hold such a tight vacuum. DB -- Lord, it = is time. The summer was very big. Lay thy shadow on the = sundials,and on the meadows let the winds = go loose. Command the last fruits thatthey = shall be full; give them another two more southerly days, press = themon to fulfillment and drive the = last sweetness into the heavenly wine.-     Rainer Maria Rilke homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = = --Apple-Mail-133--233574347--

7) From: Eddie Dove
Or, just add degassing valves to some mason jar lids ... that's what I do.
Eddie
On 9/16/06, Steven Sobel  wrote:
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8) From: raymanowen
Sure, Steven- Even more perfect are the valved bags Sweet Maria's sells for
mere pennies. Actually, such a bag without the valve would work as well as
the valved jobs- except for the hermetic  Zip-Lock closure bags.
Great for Fresh Roast gifts. I'd get a core deposit if I used the more
substantial canisters.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
My handle is "Kuripot" in the Philippines!
On 9/16/06, Steven Sobel  wrote:
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9) From: Steven Sobel
Eddie,
That sounds like a good idea.  Where do you get the valves?  Are you able t=
o
just "punch" them into the lid or do you drill a small hole into the lid?
Steve
On 9/16/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
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10) From: Andy Thomas
I have a problem with the theory behind Vacuvin and
similar products. If you are trying to preserve
volatile flavors such as those in coffee and wine
(They must be volatile, or we wouldn't be able to
smell them), then it seems to me the vacuum would pull
-- so to speak -- the volatile aromatic compounds out
of the substance you are trying to preserve. And as
soon as you open the lid the flavors would be released
into the atmosphere. It would smell great to be sure,
but the flavor compounds would no longer be available
for extraction in the brewing process. It other words,
I suspect that a partial vacuum may actually pull
flavors out of the coffee rather than keep them in. 
I haven't attempted any kind of experiment that would
prove or disprove this -- except that I used Vacuvin
for wine for a while and I could not detect any
advantage. I am willing to be convinced that my logic
is faulty...so fire away.
Andy
--- raymanowen wrote:
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Do You Yahoo!?
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11) From: miKe mcKoffee
No attempt at convincing just stating the fact that I've been mason jar vac
sealing my roasts since I began home roasting going on 6 years ago. (And was
vac sealing purchased fresh pre-roasted for years prior) Having hosted 4
Gatherings attended by some very picky palate coffee guests, including Tom,
and mason vac sealed roasts served at all with nothing but excellent
comments on coffees.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
<Snip>

12) From: raymanowen
"I am willing to be convinced that my logic is faulty...so fire away."
Me, too, Andy- I agree with you.
A.) - Fresh roasted coffee beans evolve CO2 for several days after roasting
(14, empirically).
Has anyone ever gone to the store and purchased a can of vacuum packed Big
Coffee? It's not even whole beans, but very nicely ground coffee.
If it was still under vacuum, you wouldn't have smelled anything as you were
opening the can- the hiss would have been air rushing in to destroy the
vacuum. You just started the Olympic Downhill ski run by swamping the coffee
with Oxygen.
(Here's a News Flash- once the oils and volatile flavors have been oxidized,
that reaction is irreversible by the mere reapplication of vacuum.) It stops
the deterioration but can't reverse it.
B.) - By itself, the dense CO2 displaces and flushes out O2. If you do
manage to maintain the physically impossible constant vacuum (you could do
it with a canister of ball bearings or marbles, but your fresh coffee is
generating CO2), when you release the vacuum to open the canister, you swamp
the coffee with fresh oxygen.
None of this would happen if the roasted beans were just canned in the first
place.
No comment on storing preground coffee, but if you A-B compare the cups of
coffee brewed from your preground and stored coffee,  with your coffee
ground fresh and brewed immediately, and you can't tell the difference-
Why are you Wasting the Time?
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Eschew stale coffee-

13) From: Public
Mike,
	How long do you keep these jars "in storage" at a maximum?  What
device are you using to vacuum seal the mason jars?  Now that I have the
Gene Café I've been thinking about mason jars as well.  Thanks!
Mike

14) From: Chuck the Coffee-Geek
Well I know with wine, its the exposure to oxygen that makes it go bad.  
Red wine needs oxygen for its flavor to develope, thats why it is 
decanted, and thats why decanters have that funky funnel, so it exposes 
the wine to oxygen in the air.  But red wine has a limited flavor 
window, the vacuvin tries to to extend that window.
I suspect the same is true with coffee.  As soon as you grind the beans, 
they start loosing flavor like crazy.
-Chuck
Oxygen is bad...   mmmmkay?
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Andy Thomas
Mike, I consider your experience more valid than my
thought-experiment, so I accept that vacuum sealing
roasted coffee in jars is beneficial for long-term
storage. Maybe I will run my own trials someday, but
as it is, I seldom keep coffee around long enough for
it to matter. I use it before it has a chance to go
stale, as I suspect you and most everyone on this list
does too.
Happy roasting.
--- miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>">http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings<Snip>
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

16) From: Ed Needham
Here are a few personal insights that I've discovered... Take them for what 
they are worth.
We all know that roasted beans begin going bad as soon as they are roasted. 
Their flavor changes over the week or two that they still taste good.  After 
the first week or so, the beans don't smell as sweet as fresh roasted, and 
they begin to not only lose flavor, but they gain rancid flavors.
I did a little experiment recently that involved fresh roasted beans and two 
ways to store them.  One, the fresh roasted beans were kept sealed in a 
Mylar coffee bag, unopened for three weeks.  Two, the beans were ground and 
left in a bowl, lightly covered, but open to the air for the same period of 
time.
I ground the beans that were sealed in the Mylar coffee bag and brewed them 
and the other sample in identical ways by pouring hot water on them, letting 
them steep for three minutes and then pouring it through a fine mesh 
strainer into a cup.
Results were predictable but interesting.
The whole bean sample that was stored in the Mylar bag for three weeks was 
very flavorful, but had hints of old and stale flavors.  Even rancidity 
would be an appropriate descriptor.  Not very appealing.
The preground sample, left in the open air bowl for three weeks was 
flavorless but not rancid.  There were no off flavors.  There were 
practically no flavors at all.  Very similar to Folgers or other store 
bought mass market preground.  I could serve it in a typical diner or 
restaurant without anyone knowing the difference.
My conclusion is that the open air storage might actually prevent rancidity 
but would also, at the same time, allow all the flavors to evaporate or 
otherwise disappear.
Storing the beans in an airtight Mylar bag seemed to encourage rancidity of 
the oils, but retained the flavor.
Moral of the story is that coffee beans are fragile and flavor is easily 
lost or ruined.  Deep freezing, as demonstrated by others, seems to maintain 
most of the flavor and inhibit rancidity, and would be my storage method of 
choice if I absolutely had to store beans for more than a week or more.
Using the beans in the first week, and storing them in an airtight, 
light-tight container would prevent flavor loss and avoid any signs of 
rancidity.
Of course these are just my observations, and not a tightly controlled 
scientific experiment.  I just put it on the table for what it's worth.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

17) From: Aaron
Ed, I did an experiment similar to yours earlier in the year and posted 
the results to the list.  They should be available in the archives.
Basically I stored coffee for a month using various methods, and tasted 
each storage method once a week and reported on the flavor differences 
over the time.
Vaccuum kept the beans the freshest the longest.  Mind you they did not 
stop the process, of flavor shifting, but just slowed down the process, 
ie  the vac beans took about 4 weeks to get where the non vac open air 
bags took about a week and the sealed container beans took two weeks to 
get to.
The flavor changes were not necessarily a bad thing, just well... different.
If one has ready access to roasting equipment I have to ask, why store 
the beans for months, why not just make a new batch every week or so and 
keep it fresh??  I can understand sealing beans to take with you for a 
weekend or perhaps even a weeklong trip but for weeks or months at a 
time.. hmmm
just curious.
Aaron

18) From: miKe mcKoffee
I agree, roasting weekly or so is the ideal way to go. I don't mason jar vac
seal roasts to keep beans for weeks or a month, mainly because I can.
Already have/had a FoodSaver used for many other purposes why not use it for
coffee, to keep them freshest longest during the week to 10 days they'll be
consumed.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
<Snip>

19) From: Sandy Andina
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I roast beans for drip (and decafs) weekly. I try to roast espresso  
every three or four days so I'm always pulling shots from beans that  
are "in the pocket" of freshness.
On Sep 17, 2006, at 8:13 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
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Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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I roast beans for drip (and =
decafs) weekly. I try to roast espresso every three or four days so I'm =
always pulling shots from beans that are "in the pocket" of =
freshness.
On Sep 17, 2006, at 8:13 PM, miKe mcKoffee =
wrote:
I agree, roasting weekly or so = is the ideal way to go. I don't mason jar vacseal roasts to keep beans for weeks or a month, = mainly because I can.Already have/had a = FoodSaver used for many other purposes why not use it forcoffee, to keep them freshest longest during the = week to 10 days they'll be Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeeURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes = etc:http://mdmint=.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmfirst not know. And in knowing = know I know not. Each Personal enlightenmentfound exploring the many divergent foot steps of = Those who have gone before. = -----Original = Message-----From: homeroast-admin= s.sweetmarias.com [mailto:homeroast-adm= in] On Behalf Of AaronSent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 12:46 PM Ed, I = did an experiment similar to yours earlier in the year and = posted the results to the list.  They should be available in = the archives. Basically I stored coffee for a month using various = methods, and tasted each = storage method once a week and reported on the flavor  over the time. Vaccuum kept the beans the = freshest the longest.  = Mind you they did not stop the = process, of flavor shifting, but just slowed down the = process, ie  = the vac beans took about 4 weeks to get where the non vac open = air bags took about a week and the sealed container = beans took two weeks to get = to. The flavor changes were not necessarily a bad thing, = just well... different. If one has = ready access to roasting equipment I have to ask, why = store the beans for months, why not just make a new batch = every week or so and keep it = fresh??  I can understand = sealing beans to take with you for = a weekend or perhaps even a weeklong trip but for = weeks or months at a time.. = hmmm just curious. Aaron homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = = --Apple-Mail-143--152336292--

20) From: Ed Needham
There is not much need for storing beans if you homeroast, that is true.
I've sent beans to the freezer as I am leaving for a week or two on 
vacation, and they are not much worse for the wear when I arrive home.
Mike McCoffee has had really good luck with his FoodSaver vac sealed roasted 
beans, and has even put the vac sealed beans in the freezer for added 
slowing of the staling process.
I just thought it was interesting that the sealed beans got rancid and the 
open to the air grounds did not.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

21) From: Scott Marquardt
Darned interesting stuff.
Part of the impetus behind my experiments with polyester and the Aeropress
has been much of the talk of the importance of oils for the flavor of
coffee. French press users in particular have sometimes made the importance
of oils their major objection to alternative methods. It's true -- you have
to have a press that passes the top of the slurry through your filter/screen
first -- which is why the Aeropress with polyester does homage to the FP by
brewing inverted, and only by such a method does it get oils in the cup.
But what oil! With a perverse smile, I sometimes consider that even some FP
lovers might say "no, not THAT much oil!" It's been amazing how much oil
I've been able to get in the cup. But what's my point? It's this: the oil
indeed imparts a different flavor to the early consumption of the cup (the
oil's are on top of the cup, alas, not suspended throughout the coffee as an
emulsion). It's unmistakable. Blind cupping? Pshaw. You don't need to blind
cup oils and no oils to prove anything -- it's so obvious that it'd be an
insult to the dullest palate to insist on a blind cupping to prove the
difference in flavor.
But this is the interesting part; the oils taste different depending on (a)
origin, (b) roast level, and (c) age of roast. Now darnit, that's three
variables in play, which means that it's going to take a lot more people
than I, a lot more years than I'd like, to fully explore just the
contribution oils make to flavor in the cup. What characteristics does oil
add to an acidic cup versus a non-acidic coffee? What happens when you take
those same origins dark? Light? What of a blend? Are there blueberries in
Harrar oil?
I'm quite serious when I say that this question above many others intrigues
me. Some newer readers on the list might not recall that I've only been
roasting coffee since two Junes ago. There's a LOT I have to learn. Much of
it's experiential, but a lot is also "I can find and read it when I need
it." This question of oils, though -- new territory. No one's exploring
that.
Geez, another timer killer. Like I have it to spare!
;-P
On 9/17/06, Ed Needham  wrote: My conclusion is that the
open air storage might actually prevent rancidity
but would also, at the same time, allow all the flavors to evaporate or
otherwise disappear.
Storing the beans in an airtight Mylar bag seemed to encourage rancidity of
the oils, but retained the flavor.

22) From: Eddie Dove
I tried to email it too the list, but it was rejected because it was too
long.  I can email you the Word doc if you want.  Just let me know.
On 9/16/06, Steven Sobel  wrote:
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23) From: Scott Marquardt
Count me in.
On 9/18/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
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-- 
Scott


HomeRoast Digest