HomeRoast Digest


Topic: I'm getting a new machine, rotary or vibe? (23 msgs / 660 lines)
1) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
I'm mostly stuck between the Andreja and the Vetrano. Vibe or rotary?  Also
I have my eye on the Vibiemme Super (currently running third since there's
no direct plumb option, but it does have great appeal).  Now, this is
definitely not a "what's best" post.  And if you have any of these machines
and love it to pieces, I've already read a zillion posts from people who
love their machines.  I'm convinced that they all look great and pull great
shots.  But here's my question specifically for those who have experience
with both rotary and vibe pumps:
Aside from the quiet factor that favors rotary, and the "quality" of shot,
which is negligible or in dispute, is either one more or less easy to live
with and maintain?  I'm replacing my Isomac Tea, which after 4 years has
crinkled wiring, disintegrated connectors, lots of micro-drips, and a busted
something that keeps the pump from engaging. I can replace a gasket, but I'm
not much at trouble-shooting, re-wiring, etc.   Does the rotary or vibe
decision at all influence how long  I'm likely to experience trouble-free
performance, catastrophic user error, or . . .?
Thanks for listening.
-- 
Martin
Heat + Beans
    all the rest is commentary

2) From: Alchemist John
 From what I know (which may or may not be accurate or course), the 
rotary should give you better, more consist ant and longer service 
without trouble.'
There you go - straight to your question, no asides.
At 18:24 10/11/2006, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

3) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
 I love straight answers that I'm hoping to get.  But I also love asides.
By the way  . . .OTOH . . .
Martin
On 10/11/06, Alchemist John  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Martin
Heat + Beans
    all the rest is commentary

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
 >

5) From: Les
Thanks for opening the door Mike!  Levers are very quiet!  When the pump
dies the need for espresso is no longer of much importance.  Levers make
excellent espresso and my Cremina makes awesome lattes and cappos.  The
problem is a new Olympia Cremina when they come in will cost about $3,000.00.
I know one of the importers has had his quota cut in half too!  One of my
insiders also informed me that the new LM G3 will hit the shores in March.
Sorry it will be going to those who preordered first.
Les
On 10/11/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Les
	Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:09 PM
	
	Thanks for opening the door Mike!  Levers are very quiet!  When the
pump dies the need for espresso is no longer of much importance.  Levers
make excellent espresso and my Cremina makes awesome lattes and cappos.  The
problem is a new Olympia Cremina when they come in will cost about $3,
000.00.  I know one of the importers has had his quota cut in half too!  One
of my insiders also informed me that the new LM G3 will hit the shores in
March.  Sorry it will be going to those who preordered first.
	 
<Snip>
And if the heating element dies on any machine, even a lever machine, you be
outaluck! 
Of course, dem electric heating elements and or pumps should they fail be
simple to replace. 
GS3? Nah. But I do suspect a lever will be in the future, especially for
travel:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

7) From: Greg Scace
Two things-  First, the rotary vs vibe pump thing is a non-issue 
IMO.  There's a growing body of work that suggests that there is no 
discernable taste difference.  The most recent stuff is on Home 
Barista.  Rotary is nice for other reasons.  The pressure is easily 
adjusted.  Rotary pumps are usually designed for plumbed-in 
installations, which eliminate the need for pourover tanks.  On the 
other hand, a vibe pump machine is more portable.  Pro equipment is 
equipped with rotary pumps because pro equipment has to work in a 
duty cycle environment waaay beyond what us home baristas ever 
see.  That being said, all of my machines are rotary equipped.
WRT your machine choices - have you considered the LaSpaz S-1?  You 
can get a good deal on one these days and it's a pretty solid 
machine.  You already own an e-61 machine and you aren't gonna get 
better results out of another.
-Greg
At 09:24 PM 10/11/2006, you wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
   On 10/12/06, Greg Scace  wrote:
<Snip>
My current candidates are the Bricoletti and Vetrano, with some leanings
toward the Bric. Unless I'm missing something, the LaSpaz "good deal"
offered by 1st Line and Chris looks to be $4 to 500 more than these others.
I'm mostly looking for robust components, sensible design, and anything else
that might tip me one way or another.  I'd appreciate anything that you can
add to my criteria or choices. .
-- 
Martin

9) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I went with the Brewtus for the following reasons: 
1. Didn't want to surf
2. Couldn't direct plumb
3 Wanted dual boiler
4. Wanted to use it on a 15 amp circuit
5 Didn't want to give up the first 4 reasons for a rotary pump.

10) From: Mike Chester
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Functionally, there is virtually no difference between the Bric and the =
Vet.  I  narrowed it down to the same two choices before I bought the =
Vet.  The determining factor was that I was able to get a better deal on =
a (very slightly) dented Vet for a better price.  They also look a bit =
different with the Vet being a more modern style machine and the Bric a =
more traditional machine.  The other difference is that the Vet comes =
set up to use the drip tray without a drain and the Bric comes set up to =
use the drain.  The Vet has a drain port that has a removable plug and =
the Bric can be plugged, but you also have to reroute the drain line =
from the OPV to the drip tray.   I saw how  miKe did this with his and =
it looked fairly simple.  The Vet comes with the OPV draining into the =
tray.  The bottom line is that I would (and did) get whichever one you =
can get a better deal on and looks best to you.  
Mike Chester

11) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
OK, But I'm always suspicious about my own "revisionist" criteria----not to
say that this has anything to do with your (Barry) decision making.  The
ability to direct plumb opens up lots of "opportunities" that might not be
among my original reasons.  I wouldn't go looking for a 20 amp machine
(Vetrano uses 15) but since I have one, I can consider the Bric.  I surely
don't "need" a rotary, but I also don't need a reservoir.  My original
"leading" choice was the Andreja.  If I had bought that, I'd likely report
that all of its features were the reasons for my purchase (ex., it has a
large reservoir).
Martin
On 10/12/06, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Martin
Heat + Beans
    all the rest is commentary

12) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Martin,
 
You'd highly likely be very happy with either the Vetrano or Bricoletta
(original or Volante). Mike (C) & I had a number of discussions on and off
List before he got his Vetrano. Deciding factor he got a much better deal on
a slightly dented that you can't see anyway Vetrano! Just like I got a super
deal on my Bric' from Chris for similar reason. 
 
If paying normal price it's almost a toss of the coin and or which you like
the looks of better. Seriously on the looks part. You want something you'll
be happy seeing for many years! Personally I really couldn't be happier with
the gleaming corrugated garbage can style look of the original Bric', maybe
because it is different than most others. Now in strictly the looks
department for a tank vibe machine that performs in the cup there's the
classically drop dead gorgeous Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica series...
 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Mike Chester
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 1:34 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +I'm getting a new machine, rotary or vibe?
Functionally, there is virtually no difference between the Bric and the Vet.
I  narrowed it down to the same two choices before I bought the Vet.  The
determining factor was that I was able to get a better deal on a (very
slightly) dented Vet for a better price.  They also look a bit different
with the Vet being a more modern style machine and the Bric a more
traditional machine.  The other difference is that the Vet comes set up to
use the drip tray without a drain and the Bric comes set up to use the
drain.  The Vet has a drain port that has a removable plug and the Bric can
be plugged, but you also have to reroute the drain line from the OPV to the
drip tray.   I saw how  miKe did this with his and it looked fairly simple.
The Vet comes with the OPV draining into the tray.  The bottom line is that
I would (and did) get whichever one you can get a better deal on and looks
best to you.  
 
Mike Chester

13) From: Les
Martin,
I have been enjoying this thread.  First you are going to have a learning
curve on any machine.  One of my more enjoyable experience this year was
watching and listening to Mike as he explained what was going on as he
pulled shots on his Bric.  Not only were the shots excellent, he knew why
they were excellent!  So, if you are thinking "plug and "play" you might as
well get a Solis 5000 and settle for middle of the road.  Yesterday I smiled
a bit as I went with a lower temp on a ristretto of an Ethiopian Sidamo
because the first shot was a bit too hot, not a sink shot, but ended up as a
cappo shot for Becky.  I was smiling because I remembered some of the finer
points I learned from Mike.    I followed a very similar technique as Mike
with the same results a very nice sweet ristretto at the proper
temperature.  We all have our "must haves."  Personally on my Expbar Office
Control, I am spoiled with my electronic controls.  Apart from enjoying a
lever machine, I wouldn't own a electric pump machine that didn't have
electronic controls.  I like being able to set an 8 second preinfusion
followed by a 22 second shot!  I also like the override feature that allowed
me to stretch it 10 more seconds.  So, you have to think about what is
important.  Be thankful there are so many good choices out there, and
realize what ever you get there is a learning curve.
Les
On 10/12/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Probably the biggest single reason for a new machine is the E61 group =
head. After that the little bells and whistles are just for personal =
preference.

15) From: raymanowen
"preordered first" Sight unseen, and with no durability or Quality
reference. Only an artist's concept airbrush illustration...
And people sent their money already? 3 Grand?
There's a likely reason "one of the importers has had his quota cut in
half-"
The manufacturer ballyhooed the bloody machine before he had a design that
he was able to mass produce.
In fact, HE DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE MACHINE THAT ACTUALLY WORKS, SO HE CAN'T
SHIP A FUNCTIONING MACHINE YET. If you Prepaid a nonexistant machine that
exists only as an artist's airbrush image of a mockup of a Functional
Concept, the Invisible Hand Loves You.
People that Preordered and Prepaid are going to get Prototypes that have all
the Preliminary
bugs and will be subject to unbelievable Infant Mortality. The European
manufacturers love it! You're going to be their Proving Grounds.
"Product Research and Development" doesn't exist in-house on the continent.
YOU'RE IT!
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"Be First on your block- accepting pre-orders now-" - -Edsel Ford

16) From: Greg Scace
Well don't underestimate the dual boiler thing if you haven't used 
one.  The ability to dial in to a specific brew temperature and hit 
it time after time is really cool, particularly if you are brewing 
single origin espresso, which tends to be less temperature 
tolerant.  I have a La Spaz at work, which I bought because I need a 
test machine for 53mm thermofilters.  It replaced an Astra Gourmet, 
which I liked well enough.  The S1 is a good deal easier to use.  At 
home I have a modified 2-group LM, which is incredibly stable - 
almost at the level of the GS3.  Its consistency is almost beyond 
belief.  You have to work pretty hard to screw up a shot, and they 
all come out tasting very similar.  I've not found a hx machine yet 
that can do that, with possible exception of the Nuova Simonelli 
Aurelia, and possibly its one-group counterpart, whatever it's 
called.   The double boiler thing is really cool, if you can swing 
it.  It's not that you're gonna experience an epiphany, like when you 
started roasting, but you'll make really good shots nearly all the 
time, without temp surfing.  You'll be waaay more consistent.
-Greg
At 04:44 PM 10/12/2006, you wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ray Ray Ray. Love your posts but missed the mark this time. Les was talking
about the limited production run of the Cremina, a many years established
high bar quality leader of the lever espresso machine world.
 
miKe  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
raymanowen
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 5:04 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +I'm getting a new machine, rotary or vibe?
"preordered first" Sight unseen, and with no durability or Quality
reference. Only an artist's concept airbrush illustration... 
And people sent their money already? 3 Grand?
There's a likely reason "one of the importers has had his quota cut in
half-" 
The manufacturer ballyhooed the bloody machine before he had a design that
he was able to mass produce.
In fact, HE DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE MACHINE THAT ACTUALLY WORKS, SO HE CAN'T
SHIP A FUNCTIONING MACHINE YET. If you Prepaid a nonexistant machine that
exists only as an artist's airbrush image of a mockup of a Functional
Concept, the Invisible Hand Loves You. 
People that Preordered and Prepaid are going to get Pro totypes that have
all the Preliminary 
bugs and will be subject to unbelievable Infant Mortality. The European
manufacturers love it! You're going to be their Proving Grounds.
"Product Research and Development" doesn't exist in-house on the continent.
YOU'RE IT! 
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"Be First on your block- accepting pre-orders now-" - -Edsel Ford 

18) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
pe pre pre pro pre
??
i sense a limerik in the works  
From: raymanowen [mailto:raymanowen] 
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 8:04 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +I'm getting a new machine, rotary or vibe?
"preordered first" Sight unseen, and with no durability or Quality
reference. Only an artist's concept airbrush illustration... 
And people sent their money already? 3 Grand?
There's a likely reason "one of the importers has had his quota cut in
half-" 
The manufacturer ballyhooed the bloody machine before he had a design that
he was able to mass produce.
In fact, HE DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE MACHINE THAT ACTUALLY WORKS, SO HE CAN'T
SHIP A FUNCTIONING MACHINE YET. If you Prepaid a nonexistant machine that
exists only as an artist's airbrush image of a mockup of a Functional
Concept, the Invisible Hand Loves You. 
People that Preordered and Prepaid are going to get Pro totypes that have
all the Preliminary 
bugs and will be subject to unbelievable Infant Mortality. The European
manufacturers love it! You're going to be their Proving Grounds.
"Product Research and Development" doesn't exist in-house on the continent.
YOU'RE IT! 
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"Be First on your block- accepting pre-orders now-" - -Edsel Ford 

19) From: Heat + Beans --all the rest is commentary
Great input from everyone.  Setting a particular price point that stops
short of the LaSpaz is fairly arbitrary, but after 4 years, I feel like I'm
just getting the hang of the hx, and I want to play that out. Probably more
important is that the extra 5.5" width would not work for mel  Even so, Greg
has enought credibility and flat-out persuasion that I put in several hours
of reading and measuring until I returned to my senses (not to claim that
they were worth returning to).  I did notice that the S1 is priced the same
as Chris's S2 with a "call for price."  So it's entirely possible that the
S1 is less than I think.  It's a call I'm not going to make.
Martin
On 10/12/06, Greg Scace  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Martin
Heat + Beans
    all the rest is commentary

20) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Heat + Beans
--all the rest is commentary
	Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:15 PM
	
<Snip>
stops short of the LaSpaz is fairly arbitrary, but after 4 years, I feel
like I'm just getting the hang of the hx, and I want to play that out.
Probably more important is that the extra 5.5" width would not work for mel
Even so, Greg has enought credibility and flat-out persuasion that I put in
several hours of reading and measuring until I returned to my senses (not to
claim that they were worth returning to).  I did notice that the S1 is
priced the same as Chris's S2 with a "call for price."  So it's entirely
possible that the S1 is less than I think.  It's a call I'm not going to
make. 
<Snip>
Exactly why I posted about the S1 remaining stock sale closeout a couple
days ago. Definitely worth calling to find Chris' best deal IMO if
considering a DB.
Personally I rate Chris's reputation for integrety and fair dealings about
equal to Tom's, in other words very very high. OTH while I also think the
Expobar Brewtus is a very good DB good machine, I wouldn't touch one with a
10 foot pole unless fully prepared to do any needed repairs myself, WLL
service the other end of the spectrum...
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

21) From: Barry Luterman
I've been reading on other lists how the service at HLL has fallen off. 
Luckily so far mine is working fine. And if there is ever trouble I know I 
can send either Mike a ticket and have them fix it while I set the pre-sets 
on my car radio.
From the Brewtus user group there have been very few complaints about 
breakdowns and no complaints about service. HLL seems to send the parts 
quickly and lead you through the repairs. At least that's what has been on 
the list. As I said I haven't had a moments problem with mine. I can hear 
the Mikes saying Darn

22) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
<Snip>
Yes yes, breakie breakie, tickie tickie! No not yet, wait 'til about January
after it's been grey Winter here for awhile:-) Sunny 'bout 80f high today.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

23) From: Cameron Forde
I wrote to WLL to get information on shipping an Expobar to Canada.
They never responded to my request for info.  I took this as an
indication of the level of service that I might expect if I had a
problem one of their machines and bought a different machine
elsewhere.  I guess they have enough business without having to worry
about customer service.
Cameron
On 10/12/06, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>


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