HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Lighter Roasts for these Coffees? (25 msgs / 620 lines)
1) From: Eddie Dove
Hey Folks,
I have roasted the Ethiopian Organic DP Sidamo and the Sumatra Iskandar
Triple-Pick, as per the suggestions, to a Full City + and they are good, but
I am wondering if they could be much better.  Have any of you roasted these
to a lighter degree?  What did you think of it at that lighter roast level?
All input is welcome!
Have a great day!
Respectfully,
Eddie Dove
Long Beach, MS

2) From: Tom Ogren
Eddie,
I've roasted Sumatra Iskandar from C+ to FC+ using both an unmodified
Poppery2 and Doug Strait's excellent modded Popcorn Pumper (an amazing
machine!) which I have had the privilege to use for a few weeks now, since
winning four month's use of the machine in Doug's creative and generous
tradition offering. I intend to post more about that as a seperate thread
and I'll detail the differences I've noted between unmodified and modified
popper roasting.
But to the Sumatra! First my disclaimer...I have done many roasts of this
coffee, but only one roast with the modded Wearever Pumper. With this
roasting rig, I think I may have baked the beans a bit in my newfound
excitement over the ability to slow roasts as much as I want. I think I
slowed it a bit too much, at the expense of the subtler flavors that this
bean has to offer, flavors that were much more pronounced in the faster 5-8
minute roasts I did with the unmodified Poppery2.
Most of my roasts were with the Poppery2 and I prefer Sumatra Iskandar at
Full City (maybe FC+ depending on your definitions of roast levels).
Basically a few snaps into second crack (not a "rolling second"). For me the
Iskandar has more happening in terms of complexity than the Sumatra Classic.
I think Tom Owen mentioned that he noted a lot going on "in the front of the
mouth", not just earthy base notes. I would totally agree and I think the
lighter treatment (I am considering FC a 'lighter treatment' for Sumatra) is
THE way to go to retain those fine qualities (perhaps at the expense of some
of the more caramelly flavors that might come with darker roasts)
This coffee has delicate mossy, piney, fragrant notes and a woody conifer
character and that's what make the Iskandar so special and so different from
'the classic' Sumatra. I had never, ever tasted such a long aftertaste as
with Iskandar when I first tried it. I felt like its flavors were evolving
in my mouth for ten minutes after the cup was done.
TO in VA
On 10/22/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
level?  All input is welcome!
IMO, fullcity+ ruins most coffees for non-espresso use. I roast most of my
coffee (including DP Ethiopians and Sumatrans) to city/city+ (214-218C /
417-424F) and almost never past the first snap of second in my drum roaster.
Sometimes it is difficult to get enough brightness from these coffees, so I
often use a faster finish ramp (6C+ per minute) and add 1 or 2 degrees to
the finish temperature to compensate. Sometimes I prefer less brightness and
focus on the complex caramelly chocolate with a slow 4C ramp , but still
finish in my preferred temperature range.
One caution, some people (myself not included) are sensitive to a grassy
flavor with short or light roasts. Grassiness may be caused by poor roast
method or technique.
--

4) From: Eddie Dove
What is it about the method or technique that makes or gets rid of the
grassy flavor?
Eddie
On 10/23/06, Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Tom Ogren
The method of roast is one of the more important factors to consider when
offering or accepting advice about recommended roast levels. A particular
coffee which reaches Full City in an unmodified popper in seven minutes will
taste radically different from same coffee at the "same" roast level (full
city) that roasted for fifteen minutes. The longer roast times of drum
roasts or modified poppers enables one to approach the finished roast level
more slowly by controlling the temperature throughout the course of the
roast.
Using an unmodified popper practically negates technique as a factor. Aside
from controlling the quantity of beans and tilting the roaster, users of
unmodified poppers are at the mercy of ambient temperature and are unable to
slow or speed their roasts at designated points along the way without the
aid of a variac (which I would consider a modified setup). I routinely
reached first crack at 2.5 minutes with my unmodified Poppery2. Stopping
short of second crack almost always meant retaining some of those
undesirable grassy flavors. I found the most pleasing roasts with the
unmodified setup were usually FC or FC+, and the darkness of these roasts
was usually offset by the powerfully bright qualities retained due to the
shortness of the roast. Technique never really entered into the picture with
the unmodified popper.
TO in VA
On 10/23/06, Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: Jeff Sheltren
Hi Eddie, I roasted my first batch of the DP Sidamo yesterday and made a
cup this morning in the french press.  It was absolutely wonderful -
medium body, tons of fruit, very smooth and a very nice fruity aftertaste.
Actually, if anything, I probably went a bit dark on the roast.  I went
all the way to the end of 2nd crack, which was a 24 minute roast
(including cooling) on my Z&D filled to the top fill line.
Since I know you have a Z&D, when you say 'FC+', what are you referring to
in terms of seconds/minutes before/into/past 2nd crack?  I'm still trying
to figure this all out :)
-Jeff
On Sun, October 22, 2006 11:27 am, Eddie Dove wrote:
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7) From: Tim Wat
Jeff Sheltren wrote:
<Snip>
Jeff:
On this page of the SM site:http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasted.pict-guide.htmlFC and FC+ are described as just entering 2nd crack (FC is described as 
just starting to hear the 2nd cracks, and FC+ is described as 10 seconds 
into 2nd crack and the roast is stopped). 
I found after a day of rest, the DP Sidamo beans (unground) had an 
amazing fruity aroma, very strong in the jar.  Hope that helps, I'm 
working to figure this all out as well.
Tim

8) From: Eddie Dove
Jeff,
I wish I could help you more ... I have not used my Z&D in a while.  I
accidentally knocked it off the counter and broke the plastic hinge for the
top.  Right after that I bought the Gene Cafe and have been using it.  The
Z&D does still works fine, I just have to put bungee cords around it to hold
the top down.  I think some time ago I asked about JB Weld for this
application ... things got very hectic and I never got around to fixing it
... but now that you have mentioned it I will have to put it on my task
list.  My intention was to keep using it as a sample roaster.  I have a
three day weekend at the end of this week and the wife and son will be out
of town ...
When I state Full City+, I am going by Tom's definition which is "first
audible snaps of 2nd crack".  On the Gene Cafe, I hit cool at the first snap
of 2nd crack or so that a few snaps of 2nd crack occur right after I hit
cool.
I don't know what the deal is with the Z&D that I have, but there is no
coffee that would survive roasting in that thing for 24 minutes.  Even the
ash would be gone.  If the total were 24 and that included the 5 minutes of
cooling, it would be a very dark French Roast and perhaps Spanish Roast.
This caught me completely off guard when I first got it.  I ended up making
a dark French Roast with the Timor FTO Peaberry and it was excellent in the
cup!
Respectfully,
Eddie
On 10/23/06, Jeff Sheltren  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Jeff Sheltren
Hi Eddie, maybe I should "accidently" break my Z&D so I can get a Gene
Cafe, too :)
I guess my roast was darker than a FC+, but it was quite good.  I actually
take most of my roasts at least to the very start of 2nd crack.  I'll try
a couple minutes shorter of a roast on the DP Sidamo and see how it turns
out.
I thought my Z&D was a bit on the quick side since I never go past about
24 or 25 minutes, but yours sounds like you must always have to stop it
early!
-Jeff
On Mon, October 23, 2006 2:43 pm, Eddie Dove wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Jeff Sheltren
On Mon, October 23, 2006 2:36 pm, Tim Wat wrote:
<Snip>
Hi Tim, thanks for the clarification.  Yes, the aroma of those beans is
amazing.  Even with a head cold, the smell of the grounds this morning was
very strong fruit!
-Jeff

11) From: Eddie Dove
Jeff,
If you need coaching, I can tell you exactly how to do it, but remove the
roast chamber so the glass doesn't break.  Now, over top the dishwasher ...
I will have to go back and check some of my notes, but I think 16 minutes
was the upper limit for roasting time (not including cooling).  I did learn
to run the beans through the entire cooling cycle though because it was good
at removing the chaff.
I really like the DP Sidamo, but my palate is telling me that the roast
flavor is interfering with the fruit flavors.
Eddie
On 10/23/06, Jeff Sheltren  wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: Eddie Dove
Jeff,
There was a thread "Leather and Lace Coffees???" that might give you a
couple of good ideas for dealing with that head cold.
Eddie
On 10/23/06, Jeff Sheltren < sheltren> wrote:
<Snip>

13) From: Lynne
Isn't a head cold the WORST thing?! I am just getting over one, and I 
was/am very thankful that it didn't get to the "can't taste anything" 
stage, although, for a couple of days, it was bad. I did, however, 
adjust my usual Americanos (I make them in a Moka pot) to be very, very 
strong - so I was able to taste (coffee - what else is there?) on those 
days.
I roasted some Mexican Organic Chiapas Decaf & Brazil Yellow Bourbon 
(both as great as everyone said) from my recent Harvey order. But I 
noticed a strange thing - the Mex. Chiapas Decaf smelled like baked 
beans while I was roasting it (and I just noticed the same fragrance 
when I ground it, too). I'm talking the molasses variety (the kind 
Boston is famous for, even though no one here actually eats the stuff).
I roasted it Saturday afternoon, by the way, and today, Monday - it is 
exquisite. Pure heaven.
Lynne
On Oct 23, 2006, at 3:02 PM, Jeff Sheltren wrote:
Hi Tim, thanks for the clarification.  Yes, the aroma of those beans is
<Snip>

14) From: Eddie Dove
Hey Jeff,
I just looked at a few of my files from roasting with my Zach & Dani's.  On
average, roasts hit first crack at about 9 minutes and 2nd crack at about 11
minutes.  When I added a 100' extension cord (to drop voltage to 112.7v)
roasts hit 1st crack at about 12 minutes and 2nd crack at about 18 minutes.
Eddie
On 10/23/06, Jeff Sheltren  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Scott Marquardt
Well said.
But I don't believe acidity is a proxy for everything else that's
evident in the lighter roasts. What I mean by that is that although a
fast roast might drag more acidity along with it into the heat, that
doesn't mean that the aromatics of a Sidamo will not fall off the
truck on the way up.
Or does it? What does experience teach the sages among us?
- Scott "will mangle dubious metaphors for coffee" Marquardt
On 10/23/06, Tom Ogren  wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: Tom Ogren
Scott is right...There is no such thing as a free lunch. In other words, the
benefit of retained brightness/acidity comes at a cost. With fast roasts,
it's not so much a matter of developing and then losing the coffee's
aromatic/fragrant characteristics, as that the aromatic qualities are never
allowed time to develop fully in the first place? The outsides of the beans
cook at a more rapid rate than the centers and the beans snap, crackle and
pop into second crack long before the centers of the beans are fully cooked.
Rapid roast coffees have split personalities in that way. Roasty exteriors
and grassy innards. This is not always the case but is a much more real risk
than with slower roasts.
TO in VA
On 10/23/06, Scott Marquardt < scott.marquardt > wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Scott Marquardt
For my part, I've never experienced some of the things I often hear of
on the boards. For example, grassy tastes. For that matter, much of
what I hear implies to me that for many roasters, first and second
crack are very close together.
My roasting usually gives me a LOT of time between first and second --
as much as I want, really. My challenge is deciding where to stop.
My most recent challenge is deciding just where I want to terminate
Harrars and Sidamos. Based on a very well-embedded thermocouple in a
drum, I'm trying to find the sweet spot between 425 and 435. Anything
there is fine, but where's it best? At any rate, 425 is well after
first crack has ended, and 435 is at least 5 degrees before the first
snaps of second -- I generally don't want to risk approaching second
with these coffees.
- S
On 10/24/06, Tom Ogren  wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Chad
I have often been finding a really grassy, bitter taste in my lighter 
roast coffees lately. I was having a hard tome pinpointing the problem 
though. Well, I found it. Roasted a Papua New Guinea a few days ago. 1 
day rest and brewed in my *S Barista Aroma dripper and it tasted like 
blended grass- absolutely horrible. 2 days rest, I was home so I used a 
FP and it tasted awesome! My thought was the rest did it some good. 
Nope. Day 3 back in the dripper and back to grass. It is obvious to me 
now looking back that this drip machine does fine on a dark roast but on 
a light roast, no coffee will taste good. Discouraging, I didn't want to 
buy a technivorm or likewise yet. Anyone got one for sale? :(
Chad
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 7:52am, Eddie Dove wrote:
<Snip>
 
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er 
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19) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
Roasty outside and grassy inside may be an exaggeration but more or less
correct. I often picture this as a melange effect with the bean center as
much as two minutes behind in the roast profile. A finish into second crack
may allow the exothermic reactions to preferentially heat the bean center
more than the outside, and so the beans finish the same temperature
throughout. But city roast finishes have not reached the ability to
exotherm, so the roast must be eased into the finish with a slower ramp.
Although I suspect my tongue's inability to sense grassy flavors may be the
explanation, I have done a lot of very fast roasts approaching 2 minutes
from start to finish and never tasted grassy. Most of these finish
temperatures were not measured, but were far enough into second for the
first divots to appear. After I had confidence in the timing, I stopped many
roasts in the city+/full city range with no divots. These shorter roasts
were better tasting and never grassy. One interesting finding from these
city+ roasts was the color of the inside of broken beans. Most beans were
the same color throughout, but 10 to 20 percent had a lighter shade at the
innermost portion. There was no gradation of color, but a distinct abrupt
change from dark to light. Beans from darker roasts stopped at the first
divot were all the same color throughout.
--

20) From: Aaron
Chad, I have found in my somewhat limited experiences that grassy tastes 
can come from not roasting fully enough.
On some of my lighter roasts, I had stopped it fairly soon into first 
crack, because I wanted it light and had a somewhat grassy taste to the 
coffee.
Then it dawned on me that ok, I heard cracks and stopped after about 20 
seconds, well those were just SOME of the beans, .... I didn't let it go 
long enough for ALL of the beans to actually reach crack temp and 
crack.  The result, some of the beans didn't reach first crack and gave 
the overall batch a grassy taste.
One thing I have found with my I roast 1, is that I can hold the beans 
right at the threshold of first crack for about 30 seconds to a minute 
sometimes, there will be an occasional crack of course, but the smell 
tells me they are right there...then when the 3rd stage kicks in with 
the higher temp, they really take off, it's crack city (no im not 
talking a plumbers convention either)...this way I can do a 'lighter' 
roast because i know all the beans are right at that point to begin with 
and are heated thoroughly as well.
I see you found a faulty drip brewer.   Also might want to try a 
slightly higher temp, possibly in the mid stage of your roasting, see if 
that helps any.
aaron

21) From: Tom Ogren
Yep, for many folks with unmodded poppers, there is a real risk of 1st crack
running right into second. With my Poppery2 (apparently it will vary from
machine to machine and from power outlet to power outlet), this was almost
never a problem. Of course I did tiny batches. Larger batches are more prone
to the 'run-together' problem, since the bean mass gains even more momentum
as temp. increases. My roasts typically would hit 1st crack at 2.5 minutes,
blast through 1st in 1-1.5 minutes, then I would usually get 1.5-3.0 minutes
between end of 1st and first snaps of 2nd.
When I did notice the grassiness, the astringent quality, cereal flavors, or
however folks refer to it,  I think it was more often the result of a
combination of faster ramps to 1st coupled with less time 'between cracks'.
Of course it varies from bean to bean also.
Once I added a 100' extension cord, I was getting a slightly slower ramp to
1st and sometimes an extra minute or so between 1st and 2nd. It helped
somewhat. The modified Popcorn Pumper is a world of difference though. I
have infinite control! So I've got that going for me...which is nice.
TO in VA
On 10/24/06, Scott Marquardt  wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Christina Bohnhoff
Catching up here, so just reading this thread, but my Z & D roasts very fast
too.  I usually roast 4 oz, and set for 20 minutes, and start cooling with
(give or take) 8 minutes left!
I just got a replacement iRoast base back (mine had gone kaput), so I'm back
to that for now.
Someday I'll get a Gene cafe, maybe if the iRoast doesn't last!
On 10/23/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
<Snip>

23) From: LInda Reese
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Christina, your machine does seem to be roasting way too fast for a Z&D. =
I've been roasting with an unmodified Z&D for well over a year now. I =
set it at 20 or 21 and it gets to 1st crack at around 9 minutes into the =
cycle. I let it finish the entire cycle and it's never gotten into 2nd =
crack at those settings. How about using an extension cord as has been =
suggested for slowing down other types of roasters. (This from someone =
who views modifying anything electrical as a sure way to electrocute =
myself; set the cat on fire or burn the house down; possibly all of the =
above!)  Or perhaps someone who's modified their Z&D to enhance =
performance and get more control would have suggestions as to how to =
correct yours. I think there might be some roasters at CoffeeGeek that =
have modified their Z&Ds. Maybe you could try asking there. Although my =
Z&D is fine for now, I'm also hoping a GeneCafe is in my not-to distant =
future. Take care, Linda
 Original Message ----- 
  From: Christina Bohnhoff 
  To: homeroast 
  Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 7:04 PM
  Subject: Re: +Lighter Roasts for these Coffees?
  Catching up here, so just reading this thread, but my Z & D roasts =
very fast too.  I usually roast 4 oz, and set for 20 minutes, and start =
cooling with (give or take) 8 minutes left!
  I just got a replacement iRoast base back (mine had gone kaput), so =
I'm back to that for now.
  Someday I'll get a Gene cafe, maybe if the iRoast doesn't last!
   
  On 10/23/06, Eddie Dove  wrote: 
    Jeff,
    I wish I could help you more ... I have not used my Z&D in a while.  =
I accidentally knocked it off the counter and broke the plastic hinge =
for the top.  Right after that I bought the Gene Cafe and have been =
using it.  The Z&D does still works fine, I just have to put bungee =
cords around it to hold the top down.  I think some time ago I asked =
about JB Weld for this application ... things got very hectic and I =
never got around to fixing it ... but now that you have mentioned it I =
will have to put it on my task list.  My intention was to keep using it =
as a sample roaster.  I have a three day weekend at the end of this week =
and the wife and son will be out of town ... 
    When I state Full City+, I am going by Tom's definition which is =
"first audible snaps of 2nd crack".  On the Gene Cafe, I hit cool at the =
first snap of 2nd crack or so that a few snaps of 2nd crack occur right =
after I hit cool. 
    I don't know what the deal is with the Z&D that I have, but there is =
no coffee that would survive roasting in that thing for 24 minutes.  =
Even the ash would be gone.  If the total were 24 and that included the =
5 minutes of cooling, it would be a very dark French Roast and perhaps =
Spanish Roast.  This caught me completely off guard when I first got it. =
 I ended up making a dark French Roast with the Timor FTO Peaberry and =
it was excellent in the cup! 
    Respectfully,
    Eddie 
    On 10/23/06, Jeff Sheltren  wrote: 
      Hi Eddie, I roasted my first batch of the DP Sidamo yesterday and =
made a
      cup this morning in the french press.  It was absolutely wonderful =
- 
      medium body, tons of fruit, very smooth and a very nice fruity =
aftertaste.
      Actually, if anything, I probably went a bit dark on the roast.  I =
went
      all the way to the end of 2nd crack, which was a 24 minute roast 
      (including cooling) on my Z&D filled to the top fill line.
      Since I know you have a Z&D, when you say 'FC+', what are you =
referring to
      in terms of seconds/minutes before/into/past 2nd crack?  I'm still =
trying 
      to figure this all out :)
      -Jeff
      On Sun, October 22, 2006 11:27 am, Eddie Dove wrote:
      > Hey Folks,
      >
      > I have roasted the Ethiopian Organic DP Sidamo and the Sumatra =
Iskandar
      > Triple-Pick, as per the suggestions, to a Full City + and they =
are good, 
      > but
      > I am wondering if they could be much better.  Have any of you =
roasted
      > these
      > to a lighter degree?  What did you think of it at that lighter =
roast
      > level?
      > All input is welcome! 
      >
      > Have a great day!
      >
      > Respectfully,
      >
      > Eddie Dove
      > Long Beach, MS
      >

24) From: Michael Wascher
Linda,
I'm relatively new to a Z&D. How do you tell when you are in 1st or 2nd
crack? Can you hear them? With a popper I've gotten good audio cues, but I
get none on the Z&D.
I'm drinking some Monkey Blend now. I set the Z&D for 30 minutes, which gave
me a good roast for this blend before, but this roast is terrible! It has
none of the sweetness I expect from MB, as a matter of fact it is very
bitter!
Any hints?
--MikeW
On 10/29/06, LInda Reese  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In practice,
there is."
  - Chuck Reid

25) From: Brian Kamnetz
On 10/29/06, Michael Wascher  wrote:
<Snip>
Michael,
I LOVE that quote!
Brian


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