HomeRoast Digest


Topic: espresso or not to espresso? (27 msgs / 1240 lines)
1) From: jay hobaugh
Hello list members
  I have a co-worker who has a seaco espresso machine, he has not used it in a yr or 
  more. I had asked yesterday to borrow it for a little while to see if I maybe wanted
  to try the espresso route. NOW there a couple of problems with my inital idea.
  first he has said I need to clean it cause its very dirty (read--probably still has grounds
  in it from the last time hes used it over a year ago) second and this one is still making
  me laugh folks second is that he said "you'll need to get something to tamp the coffee
  in there with I cant remember what I used now" so also said " the coffee goes every
  where , its a PIA to clean" I thought well lets see if your not using a tamper it probably 
  will go everywhere (HAHA) 
  So I guess my question is is it worth the effort cause I will probably need to buy a 
  tamper, maybe some kind of cleaning agent too (he said run a couple of shots of 
  water through it before you try to use it hehe) 
  And then I  have a capresso infinity grinder to boot, which by all reports is not
  very good for espresso grind. I also have a hand crank one that seems to be ok for
  the fine grind but crappy for coarse grind. So anyone have any thoughts???
   
  Then on the other side of the slippery slope-----The presto scandinavian I bought broke
  after using it for a mere 21 days. Just stopped working, so I was going to save for a 
  technivorm I have about 100$ saved already (including the refund from the presto)
  so now I am like technivorm or rocky/cunil type of grinder so I can continue myjourney
  choices. sigh
   
  Then reading about the pid sylvia thread has got me worried about how
  good of a shot I will be able to get but I read also that all that extra learnig experience
   was great. so maybe just go for it eh? I have only had what I would call a good shot
  once at a coffee shop in Indy that I found out about through CG website. All prevoius
  shots were either from steam toys or *$
   
  Thanks for any input
  Steve
   
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
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2) From: Brett Mason
I am always a fan of the Saeco espresso line...  If you use plain folgers,
you won't need a tamper...
I turned an old plastic tamper to 53mm, and it worked in my *$ Barista -
sort of, kind of...
Definitely the right price to start...
Brett
On 11/7/06, jay hobaugh  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

3) From: Tim Wat
jay hobaugh wrote:
<Snip>
Jay:
Ultimately only you can answer this question based upon your available 
time, resources and opportunity cost.  But SM sells tampers for $34, and 
I can't see how borrowing a consumer-grade espresso machine for 
experience and giggles wouldn't be worth the time and effort...isn't 
that why we're all in this?
You may even end up with a shot or two you enjoy.
Just my opinion, YMMV.  Best to you.
Tim

4) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Don't know exactly what you are asking. But supplies for cleaning an =
espresso machine are cheap and can be used for any espresso machine you =
might want to upgrade to or if the Seaco is unrepeatable. Same can be =
said for the tamper. Try fixing and cleaning the machine up. If it =
doesn't meet your expectations dump it your supplies can be used on the =
next machine.

5) From: Barbara Leazier
Steve,
 
Where is Indy did you find a decent espresso.  I travel there frequently, a=
nd as a matter of fact my son will be attending Marian University next fall=
 and its located 10 minutes from downtown Indy.  So I am very interested in=
 find decent espresso in Indy.
 
Thanks for your help!
 
BarbWork for the Lord - the pay isn't much but the retirement is out of thi=
s world!  MAY GOD BLESS YOU.
From: jyhobie: + espresso or not to espresso?To: homeroast=
@lists.sweetmarias.comDate: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 11:30:30 -0800
Hello list members
I have a co-worker who has a seaco espresso machine, he has not used it in =
a yr or 
more. I had asked yesterday to borrow it for a little while to see if I may=
be wanted
to try the espresso route. NOW there a couple of problems with my inital id=
ea.
first he has said I need to clean it cause its very dirty (read--probably s=
till has grounds
in it from the last time hes used it over a year ago) second and this one i=
s still making
me laugh folks second is that he said "you'll need to get something to tamp=
 the coffee
in there with I cant remember what I used now" so also said " the coffee go=
es every
where , its a PIA to clean" I thought well lets see if your not using a tam=
per it probably 
will go everywhere (HAHA) 
So I guess my question is is it worth the effort cause I will probably need=
 to buy a 
tamper, maybe some kind of cleaning agent too (he said run a couple of shot=
s of 
water through it before you try to use it hehe) 
And then I  have a capresso infinity grinder to boot, which by all reports =
is not
very good for espresso grind. I also have a hand crank one that seems to be=
 ok for
the fine grind but crappy for coarse grind. So anyone have any thoughts???
 
Then on the other side of the slippery slope-----The presto scandinavian I =
bought broke
after using it for a mere 21 days. Just stopped working, so I was going to =
save for a 
technivorm I have about 100$ saved already (including the refund from the p=
resto)
so now I am like technivorm or rocky/cunil type of grinder so I can continu=
e myjourney
choices. sigh
 
Then reading about the pid sylvia thread has got me worried about how
good of a shot I will be able to get but I read also that all that extra le=
arnig experience
 was great. so maybe just go for it eh? I have only had what I would call a=
 good shot
once at a coffee shop in Indy that I found out about through CG website. Al=
l prevoius
shots were either from steam toys or *$
 
Thanks for any input
Steve
 
Sponsored LinkFree Uniden 5.8GHz Phone System with Packet8 Internet Phone S=
ervice=

6) From: Sandy Andina
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Go to the spice aisle at your supermarket and buy a bottle of "sour  
salt." That is citric acid, which when branded "Cleancaf" costs four  
times as much. Dilute 2 tsp. in a quart of water and run it through  
once, then 2 more tanks of plain water.  (You might also want to call  
Starbucks and see if they'll sell you a new grouphead gasket, which  
it probably needs--my old Estro Profi, a Saeco machine, needed a  
gasket replacement which is easy to do). Most gourmet stores like Sur  
La Table, as well as some coffee bean shops, will sell a cast  
aluminum tamper, with one end 53mm and the other either 49 or 58mm.  
(Espressoparts NW sells it as "Terry's Tamper"). Should run you about  
$12. Not a Reg Barber, but a world better than those little plastic  
cat toys.
You might surprise yourself, even with a Capresso grinder. Wait'll  
you move up to a Rocky or even a LaPavoni PG series (or if you want  
to shoot the budget, Mazzer, Cunil or Macap). Entry-level pump machine 
+great grinder=good shots.  Great machine+crappy grinder=lousy shots.
On Nov 7, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Tim Wat wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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Go to the spice aisle at your =
supermarket and buy a bottle of "sour salt." That is citric acid, which =
when branded "Cleancaf" costs four times as much. Dilute 2 tsp. in a =
quart of water and run it through once, then 2 more tanks of plain =
water.  (You might also want to call Starbucks and see if they'll sell =
you a new grouphead gasket, which it probably needs--my old Estro Profi, =
a Saeco machine, needed a gasket replacement which is easy to do). Most =
gourmet stores like Sur La Table, as well as some coffee bean shops, =
will sell a cast aluminum tamper, with one end 53mm and the other either =
49 or 58mm. (Espressoparts NW sells it as "Terry's Tamper"). Should run =
you about $12. Not a Reg Barber, but a world better than those little =
plastic cat toys.
You= might surprise yourself, even with a Capresso grinder. Wait'll you move = up to a Rocky or even a LaPavoni PG series (or if you want to shoot the = budget, Mazzer, Cunil or Macap). Entry-level pump machine+great = grinder=good shots.  Great machine+crappy grinder=lousy = shots. On Nov 7, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Tim Wat wrote:
jay hobaugh wrote: So I guess my question is is it = worth the effort Ultimately only you can answer this question based = upon your available time, resources and opportunity cost.  But SM sells tampers for $34, = and I can't see how borrowing a consumer-grade espresso machine for = experience and giggles wouldn't be worth the time and effort...isn't = that why we're all in this? You may even end up with a shot = or two you enjoy. Just my opinion, YMMV.  Best to you. homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = = = --Apple-Mail-19--57692236--

7) From: Les
I started my espresso journey with a SAECO.  It made OK espresso.  The
cheapo plastic tamper-spoon is what brought birth to Thor Tamper, so I guess
I owe my SAECO something.  I bought it to prove to myself that I didn't like
espresso.  Now I have 3 functioning espresso machines in the house and a
All-Clad travel "espresso" machine.  So, good old SAECO got me hooked on
pressurized extraction.
Les
On 11/7/06, jay hobaugh  wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Sandy Andina
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Should also mention that my first real pump (as opposed to steam toy  
Vesuviana or thermoblock Krups) espresso machine was a Saeco Rio  
Vapore from Chicago's Coffee & Tea Exchange. I gave it to my sister  
when I decided I wanted a grinder for espresso alone, and bought its  
combo sister machine the Estro Profi (Estro was the brand name under  
which Starbucks sold Saeco at the time, before they rebadged it as  
"Barista"). Little did I know that the built-in grinder wasn't much  
better than the Braun burr mill I had been using.  I finally scrapped  
it when the grinder's burrs dulled (and could not be replaced) and  
the pump eventually failed--after 5 years. But till the pump died,  
the Profi made pretty good shots (which took a quantum leap in  
quality when I started using a LaPavoni PGB grinder to replace the  
built-in).
On Nov 7, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Les wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
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	charsetO-8859-1
Should also mention that my =
first real pump (as opposed to steam toy Vesuviana or thermoblock Krups) =
espresso machine was a Saeco Rio Vapore from Chicago's Coffee & Tea =
Exchange. I gave it to my sister when I decided I wanted a grinder for =
espresso alone, and bought its combo sister machine the Estro Profi =
(Estro was the brand name under which Starbucks sold Saeco at the time, =
before they rebadged it as "Barista"). Little did I know that the =
built-in grinder wasn't much better than the Braun burr mill I had been =
using.  I finally scrapped it when the grinder's burrs dulled (and =
could not be replaced) and the pump eventually failed--after 5 years. =
But till the pump died, the Profi made pretty good shots (which took a =
quantum leap in quality when I started using a LaPavoni PGB grinder to =
replace the built-in).
On Nov 7, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Les =
wrote:
I started my espresso journey with a SAECO.  It = made OK espresso.  The cheapo plastic tamper-spoon is what brought = birth to Thor Tamper, so I guess I owe my SAECO something.  I bought = it to prove to myself that I didn't like espresso.  Now I have 3 = functioning espresso machines in the house and a All-Clad travel = "espresso" machine.  So, good old SAECO got me hooked on pressurized = extraction.   = Les = --Apple-Mail-20--51160749--

9) From: jay hobaugh
Hey thanks everyone for all the input. I realize how unclear about that whole post was
  now that I have read it. I just wanted some input I suppose (And got it too) I will
  "Borrow" the machine from my co-worker, he may end up trying to sell it to me?
  We shall see. He didnt even have the plastic tamper, I remember now that he said
  he used the coffee measuring scoop to tamp with!! 
   
   I heartily agree with you Tim Its why I am here, the love of good coffee. you are right 
  I may suprise myself thanks for the vote of confidence.
   
  Plus thanks for the tip about the "sour salt" Sandy, I will do that, not too sure if I want to sink
  too much money into --his-- machine with a new gasket but we shall see.  I am sure 
  I will need to get a tamper since I have none. we have an overpriced kitchen store 
  here in town I may go have a look, it may end up being competitive when S/H is 
  included on an internet purchase.
   
  And WOW Les I visited your website today those tampers are GREAT. I love how
  the mexican wood ones looked. Good job man. I never knew before. I guess I had
  only been homeroasting since july, so there you go. OK thanks everyone for
  the input. I will borrow his machine clean it up and try it out. Maybe I should roast
  some brazilian tomorrow for the initial try on ??maybe sunday?? probably monday.
  Dont know for sure. 
  Thanks again 
  Steve 
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

10) From: Les
Steve,
Don't get caught up in the "machine craze!"  It is the guy behind the
machine that pulls the shot.  Alchemist John pulled one of the nicest shots
I have ever had on a DeLonghi.  About two weeks following that morning of
playing around, I visited Alfred who had a Hottop, Giotto, and Mazzer Mini.
He couldn't pull a shot!  Sure it took all morning of tweaking to get that
most excellent shot at Alchemist John's house, and about a half hour and 3
tries at Alfred's.  Remember Espresso 101,  What you are paying for is power
and stability.  The more you pay the more of both of those you should have.
The SAECO would be middle of the road for  both.  Don't try to pull extra
long shots, they may not blonde out on you, but your temp will be dropping
like a rock.  I would limit my shots to 1.5 oz max. and no more than 25
seconds.
Les
On 11/7/06, jay hobaugh  wrote:
<Snip>

11) From: Eddie Dove
Les,
Interesting ... if I am understanding you correctly ... so what would be the
minimum machine with which one could pull ristrettos?
Eddie
On 11/7/06, Les  wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: Les
It depends on your skill as a barista.  I wouldn't touch that with a 10 ft
pole.  However, I know that many machines are set way too high, 14 bar.  A
good ristretto should be done at between 9 and 11 bar.  I know many on the
list who have turned the pressure down and had better results.
Les
On 11/7/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
<Snip>

13) From: Eddie Dove
Sorry Les ... didn't mean to put you on the spot, I should have asked that
better.  I was asking along the lines of your response because you talked
about the temperature dropping.
Thanks,
Eddie
On 11/7/06, Les  wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: Les
That is tough.  I can pull very good ones on my Olympia Cremina with a 49mm
basket.  I think you have to have a stable machine.   I think a Gaggia or
Miss Silvia would has enough power and stability to do it.  That said, Mike
McKoffee was have way more fun pulling them with his Bric at the espresso
jam.  I can pull good ones on my Expobar, but it is harder than on Mike's
Bric or a LaSpaziale S1.  I have not played with a Bewtus yet, so I can't
say.  I have pulled some nice ones on the Andreja that Tom sells.  The big
problem with machines in the SAECO class is they don't have the mass to hold
the heat.  The E-61 grouphead is massive.  They weigh about 15 pounds.  The
Silvia has a nice mass to it as well.  The small heaters in the smaller
machines just can't provide the stability or power to pull a good
ristretto.    However, (please don't get too upset) the key to a good
ristretto is having a good grind.  If you don't have a Rocky or better,
forget it.
Les
On 11/7/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Eddie Dove
Thanks for the info ... that is greatly appreciated.  I am getting the
grinder taken care of ... Mazzer Mini.  My KitchenAid Pro Line will be going
to my office so that I don't end up with another entire day with emasculated
coffee.
Thank you, again.
Eddie
On 11/7/06, Les  wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Actually I'm pretty sure I disagree. Lower powered and/or smaller brew
boilered machines would be more intra-shot stable on a ristretto than a
standard shot do to the lower water volume flow for a ristretto. On a
related note interestingly I was chatting a bit with Chris (Tacy) at the
NWRBC. He mentioned it's much harder in his opinion to pull a really good
standard shot than a good ristretto. The more I've thought about it and
played with both since then I tend to agree. It's much tougher to pull a
really excellently balanced 2oz double (or 1oz single) shot. While a
ristretto tends to be sweeter they also seem to lack the taste definitions
of a really good standard shot. Or so it seems, at this point in the
journey...
 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Les
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:07 PM
That is tough.  I can pull very good ones on my Olympia Cremina with a 49mm
basket.  I think you have to have a stable machine.   I think a Gaggia or
Miss Silvia would has enough power and stability to do it.  That said, Mike
McKoffee was have way more fun pulling them with his Bric at the espresso
jam.  I can pull good ones on my Expobar, but it is harder than on Mike's
Bric or a LaSpaziale S1.  I have not played with a Bewtus yet, so I can't
say.  I have pulled some nice ones on the Andreja that Tom sells.  The big
problem with machines in the SAECO class is they don't have the mass to hold
the heat.  The E-61 grouphead is massive.  They weigh about 15 pounds.  The
Silvia has a nice mass to it as well.  The small heaters in the smaller
machines just can't provide the stability or power to pull a good ristretto.
However, (please don't get too upset) the key to a good ristretto is having
a good grind.  If you don't have a Rocky or better, forget it. 
 
Les

17) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
DON'T PLAY WITH IT!!! The DARK Side is a steeper slipperier slope than
roasting!
(and correspondingly rewarding IMO :-)
 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of jay hobaugh
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:31 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: + espresso or not to espresso?
Hello list members
I have a co-worker who has a seaco espresso machine, he has not used it in a
yr or 
more. I had asked yesterday to borrow it for a little while to see if I
maybe wanted
to try the espresso route. NOW there a couple of problems with my inital
idea.
first he has said I need to clean it cause its very dirty (read--probably
still has grounds
in it from the last time hes used it over a year ago) second and this one is
still making
me laugh folks second is that he said "you'll need to get something to tamp
the coffee
in there with I cant remember what I used now" so also said " the coffee
goes every
where , its a PIA to clean" I thought well lets see if your not using a
tamper it probably 
will go everywhere (HAHA) 
So I guess my question is is it worth the effort cause I will probably need
to buy a 
tamper, maybe some kind of cleaning agent too (he said run a couple of shots
of 
water through it before you try to use it hehe) 
And then I  have a capresso infinity grinder to boot, which by all reports
is not
very good for espresso grind. I also have a hand crank one that seems to be
ok for
the fine grind but crappy for coarse grind. So anyone have any thoughts???
 
Then on the other side of the slippery slope-----The presto scandinavian I
bought broke
after using it for a mere 21 days. Just stopped working, so I was going to
save for a 
technivorm I have about 100$ saved already (including the refund from the
presto)
so now I am like technivorm or rocky/cunil type of grinder so I can continue
myjourney
choices. sigh
 
Then reading about the pid sylvia thread has got me worried about how
good of a shot I will be able to get but I read also that all that extra
learnig experience
 was great. so maybe just go for it eh? I have only had what I would call a
good shot
once at a coffee shop in Indy that I found out about through CG website. All
prevoius
shots were either from steam toys or *$
 
Thanks for any input
Steve  
Sponsored Link
Free Uniden   5.8GHz Phone System with
Packet8 Internet Phone Service

18) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
A machine like the Saeco you need to use "through the tank" cleaner like
CleanCaf, can't backflush. So it does cost more to keep cheapo espresso
machines clean, both in $ & time it takes to clean.
 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Barry Luterman
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:45 AM
Don't know exactly what you are asking. But supplies for cleaning an
espresso machine are cheap and can be used for any espresso machine you
might want to upgrade to or if the Seaco is unrepeatable. Same can be said
for the tamper. Try fixing and cleaning the machine up. If it doesn't meet
your expectations dump it your supplies can be used on the next machine.

19) From: Sandy Andina
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No wonder Mark Prince calls the ristretto a "crutch."
On Nov 8, 2006, at 12:52 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
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No wonder Mark Prince calls the =
ristretto a "crutch."
On Nov 8, 2006, at 12:52 AM, miKe =
mcKoffee wrote:
Actually = I'm pretty sure I disagree. Lower powered and/or smaller brew boilered = machines would be more intra-shot stable on a ristretto than a standard = shot do to the lower water volume flow for a ristretto. On a related = note interestingly I was chatting a bit with Chris (Tacy) at the NWRBC. = He mentioned it's much harder in his opinion to pull a really good = standard shot than a good ristretto. The more I've thought about it and = played with both since then I tend to agree. It's much tougher to pull a = really excellently balanced 2oz double (or 1oz single) shot. While a = ristretto tends to be sweeter they also seem to lack the taste = definitions of a really good standard shot. Or so it seems, at this = point in the journey...   Kona Konnaisseur miKe = mcKoffee URL = to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint=.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm Ultimately the quest for Koffee = Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in = knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the = many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone = before. = From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-adm= in] On Behalf Of Les Sent: = Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:07 PM = That is tough.  I can pull very good ones on my Olympia Cremina = with a 49mm basket.  I think you have to have a stable machine.   = I think a Gaggia or Miss Silvia would has enough power and stability = to do it.  That said, Mike McKoffee was have way more fun pulling = them with his Bric at the espresso jam.  I can pull good ones on my = Expobar, but it is harder than on Mike's Bric or a LaSpaziale S1.  I = have not played with a Bewtus yet, so I can't say.  I have pulled = some nice ones on the Andreja that Tom sells.  The big problem = with machines in the SAECO class is they don't have the mass to hold = the heat.  The E-61 grouphead is massive.  They weigh about 15 = pounds.  The Silvia has a nice mass to it as well.  The small = heaters in the smaller machines just can't provide the stability or = power to pull a good ristretto.    However, (please don't get too = upset) the key to a good ristretto is having a good grind.  If you = don't have a Rocky or better, forget it.   = Les Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-23--19301874--

20) From: Walter
Hi Eddi,
now, I'm not Les but I'd like to add my 2ct worth anyway...
The most important factor will be the one at the handle side of the 
portafilter - you.
Followed by a good grinder, good freshly roasted beans and good water. 
If you are willing to spend some time and efforts you will be able to 
get excellent results with a small conical grinder like the Iberital or 
Ascaso and a Pavoni lever machine. The ristretti out of my Pavoni are 
-according to my taste - by far superior than those from my E61 HX 
machine (LaScala Butterfly). But it took me some time to get there.
I have pulled also a few good shots from a small Gaggia CC, it really 
isn't the machine which plays the most important factor...
Eddie Dove schrieb:
<Snip>

21) From: MichaelB
IMO a ristretto is neither a crutch or a magic elixir. It's just an espresso
drink with a bit less volume than another type.
We can think of drinks as rigid categories: ristrettos, normales, lungos,
etc. and specify the volume wanted and the factors necessary to get that
volume: grind, dose, tamp, basket size, temperature, etc.
We can also approach it as finding the best shot for a particular type of
coffee and roast. Here you might explore updosing, downdosing, using the
same dose but putting it in a different size basket, varying the time of the
pull, the volume of the pull, etc. All this in pursuit of the best possible
way to bring out the best the coffee has to offer.
The first approach creates a few specific categories which we can latch onto
and try to produce. So we are categorizing before we pull the shot. The
second approach focuses on the shot as a continuum and finding the best
combination of factors to pull the best possible shot for your coffee.  Then
we can try to categorize after we pull the shot.
Both are valid methods. Both work wonderfully. There is probably a best time
and place for either approach. If someone asks you for a ristretto, you've
got the first approach to guide you. If someone asks for the best possible
cup, follow your taste and knowledge. It might lead you to a 1 oz ristretto,
or it might lead you to a 6 oz Americano as the best way to showcase a
particular coffee.
As long as you enjoy it what you or someone else calls it is secondary.
On 11/8/06, Sandy Andina  wrote:
<Snip>
--
MichaelB

22) From: Howell Ite
I thought that backflush and descaling cleaning activities performed different cleaning functions?  I have always read that backflushing cleans the three-way valve and descaling removes scale and lime buildup from the hardness of the water.  I always perform both activities at the same time then run a tank of water through.
   
  Paul Andres
miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
          A machine like the Saeco you need to use "through the tank" cleaner like CleanCaf, can't backflush. So it does cost more to keep cheapo espresso machines clean, both in $ & time it takes to clean.
   
    Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
---------------------------------
  From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Barry Luterman
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:45 AM
Don't know exactly what you are asking. But supplies for cleaning an espresso machine are cheap and can be used for any espresso machine you might want to upgrade to or if the Seaco is unrepeatable. Same can be said for the tamper. Try fixing and cleaning the machine up. If it doesn't meet your expectations dump it your supplies can be used on the next machine.

23) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Agreed. Yes backflushing and descaling serve two differnet functions. But
the 3-way valve is only part of what gets cleaned during backflushing. My
point was on machines like a Saeco you "can't" backflush to clean and hence
must use "through the tank cleaner" like CleanCaf, which happens to also be
a mild descaler. Detergent backflushing (cleaning) should be done very
often, atleast weekly not too often, because coffee oils go rancid quickly
while descaling is a periodical maintenance scheduled depending on hardness
of water, usually annually or so a good rule of thumb. Water only
backflushing isn't really cleaning and doesn't remove all the coffee oil
residue but rather rinsing of loose grinds.
 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Howell Ite
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 7:44 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: RE: + espresso or not to espresso?
I thought that backflush and descaling cleaning activities performed
different cleaning functions?  I have always read that backflushing cleans
the three-way valve and descaling removes scale and lime buildup from the
hardness of the water.  I always perform both activities at the same time
then run a tank of water through.
 
Paul Andres
miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
A machine like the Saeco you need to use "through the tank" cleaner like
CleanCaf, can't backflush. So it does cost more to keep cheapo espresso
machines clean, both in $ & time it takes to clean.
 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Barry Luterman
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:45 AM
Don't know exactly what you are asking. But supplies for cleaning an
espresso machine are cheap and can be used for any espresso machine you
might want to upgrade to or if the Seaco is unrepeatable. Same can be said
for the tamper. Try fixing and cleaning the machine up. If it doesn't meet
your expectations dump it your supplies can be used on the next machine.

24) From: Howell Ite
Thanks for the clarification.  Point well taken.
   
  Paul Andres
miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
      Agreed. Yes backflushing and descaling serve two differnet functions. But the 3-way valve is only part of what gets cleaned during backflushing. My point was on machines like a Saeco you "can't" backflush to clean and hence must use "through the tank cleaner" like CleanCaf, which happens to also be a mild descaler. Detergent backflushing (cleaning) should be done very often, atleast weekly not too often, because coffee oils go rancid quickly while descaling is a periodical maintenance scheduled depending on hardness of water, usually annually or so a good rule of thumb. Water only backflushing isn't really cleaning and doesn't remove all the coffee oil residue but rather rinsing of loose grinds.
   
    Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
---------------------------------
  From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Howell Ite
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 7:44 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: RE: + espresso or not to espresso?
  I thought that backflush and descaling cleaning activities performed different cleaning functions?  I have always read that backflushing cleans the three-way valve and descaling removes scale and lime buildup from the hardness of the water.  I always perform both activities at the same time then run a tank of water through.
   
  Paul Andres
miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
          A machine like the Saeco you need to use "through the tank" cleaner like CleanCaf, can't backflush. So it does cost more to keep cheapo espresso machines clean, both in $ & time it takes to clean.
   
    Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm
Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
---------------------------------
  From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Barry Luterman
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:45 AM
Don't know exactly what you are asking. But supplies for cleaning an espresso machine are cheap and can be used for any espresso machine you might want to upgrade to or if the Seaco is unrepeatable. Same can be said for the tamper. Try fixing and cleaning the machine up. If it doesn't meet your expectations dump it your supplies can be used on the next machine.

25) From: Les
Going way back to the top!  Mike I don't think we are in disagreement.  You
need to play with the lower end machines more.  To put it in basic terms,
you don't have enough power to pull a ristretto on a SAECO.   A SAECO is
like a high rpm 2 cycle motorcyle whereas a good HX E-61 is like a Dodge
truck with a Cummings Diesel.  You need the torque to pull the ristretto.  I
also agree a good 2oz shot is harder to pull.
Les
On 11/8/06, Howell Ite  wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-24-20735905
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
You are correct, but backflushing does no real good (and might even  
harm) a machine without the 3-way valve.  I have also been advised  
that HX machines should not be descaled--the reservoir periodically  
washed out to remove what little scale might be in the water, and  
proper water formulations used, but not descaled.  Descaling is  
necessary for dual-purpose single-boiler, thermoblock, steam toy, and  
electric drip machines--assuming that there is mineral content in the  
water.
On Nov 8, 2006, at 9:43 AM, Howell Ite wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
--Apple-Mail-24-20735905
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
You are correct, but =
backflushing does no real good (and might even harm) a machine without =
the 3-way valve.  I have also been advised that HX machines should not =
be descaled--the reservoir periodically washed out to remove what little =
scale might be in the water, and proper water formulations used, but not =
descaled.  Descaling is necessary for dual-purpose single-boiler, =
thermoblock, steam toy, and electric drip machines--assuming that there =
is mineral content in the water.
On Nov 8, 2006, at 9:43 =
AM, Howell Ite wrote:
I thought that = backflush and descaling cleaning activities performed different = cleaning functions?  I have always read that backflushing cleans the = three-way valve and descaling removes scale and lime buildup from the = hardness of the water.  I always perform both activities at the same = time then run a tank of water through. Paul = Andres miKe mcKoffee <mcKona> wrote:A = machine like the Saeco you need to use "through the tank" cleaner like = CleanCaf, can't backflush. So it does cost more to keep cheapo espresso = machines clean, both in $ & time it takes to = clean. Kona = Konnaisseur miKe = mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some = recipes etc:
=
From: homeroast-admin = [
mailto:homeroast-adm= in] On Behalf Of = Barry = Luterman
Tuesday, November = 07, 2006 11:45 AM

Don't know exactly what you are asking. But = supplies for cleaning an espresso machine are cheap and can be used for = any espresso machine you might want to upgrade to or if the Seaco is = unrepeatable. Same can be said for the tamper. Try fixing and cleaning = the machine up. If it doesn't meet your expectations dump it your = supplies can be used on the next = machine. Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-24-20735905--

27) From: miKe mcKoffee
Absolutely should NOT attempt to backflush any espresso machine that does
not have a 3-way valve.
While many dealers advise not to descale HX machines, there is a big
difference between aggressive commercial descaling chemical acids used in
full take apart descaling versus preventative citric acid type strength
descaling. Here's a HB thread of an E61 HX machine that was NOT preventative
descaled and ensuing extreme scale build up on E16 group mushroom. Scale was
bad enough in the group head causing extremely low temps from restricted
flow.http://www.home-barista.com/forums/viewtopic.php?tC2FWIW I've citric acid descaled my HX direct plumbed rotary Bric' twice in 11
months no problems. Second time last week after only 3 months since first
descaling, didn't need it and won't do it again such a short time frame.
Have determined with my ~7gpg water annually should be sufficient to keep
out of scale trouble.
Either do home preventative descaling or wait until it gets really bad and
pay to have your machine professionally taken apart and descaled. Seems a
no-brainer to me. Same dealers who advise against descaling HX machines
advise TO descale lower end single boiler machines, huh?! Descaling HX
machines takes a bit more how to knoweldge which may be why they say not to
do it but it isn't really that difficult. 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Sandy Andina
	Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:45 AM
	
	You are correct, but backflushing does no real good (and might even
harm) a machine without the 3-way valve. I have also been advised that HX
machines should not be descaled--the reservoir periodically washed out to
remove what little scale might be in the water, and proper water
formulations used, but not descaled. Descaling is necessary for dual-purpose
single-boiler, thermoblock, steam toy, and electric drip machines--assuming
that there is mineral content in the water.
	
	On Nov 8, 2006, at 9:43 AM, Howell Ite wrote:
				I thought that backflush and descaling
cleaning activities performed different cleaning functions? I have always
read that backflushing cleans the three-way valve and descaling removes
scale and lime buildup from the hardness of the water. I always perform both
activities at the same time then run a tank of water through.
		Paul Andres
		
		miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
			A machine like the Saeco you need to use "through
the tank" cleaner like CleanCaf, can't backflush. So it does cost more to
keep cheapo espresso machines clean, both in $ & time it takes to clean.
									Kona
Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee 
			URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc: 
		http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm  
			Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a
solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know
not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot
steps of Those who have gone before.
				From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Barry Luterman
				Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:45 AM
				
				Don't know exactly what you are asking. But
supplies for cleaning an espresso machine are cheap and can be used for any
espresso machine you might want to upgrade to or if the Seaco is
unrepeatable. Same can be said for the tamper. Try fixing and cleaning the
machine up. If it doesn't meet your expectations dump it your supplies can
be used on the next machine.
		Sandy
	www.sandyandina.com
	www.sass-music.com


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