HomeRoast Digest


Topic: sour notes in coffee? (68 msgs / 1672 lines)
1) From: Kevin
I was wondering if someone could help me out with this.  All the roasts I
produce (with a GC or IR1) tend to have an overpowering sour taste on the
front of the palate.  Today for example is the Nicaragua CoE #3 El Cipres
roasted to City+ (16min on a GC at 460F).  The dry grinds had a light
butterscotch smell as noted in Tom's review but the cup has an overpower
sour tone to it that fades as it cools (I can't taste/smell berries
either).  The bean was only rested 14hrs.  Does this taste diminish with
additional rest, is it an origin characteristic (but I get this taste often)
or is it a roast characteristic?
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

2) From: Aaron
Almost sounds like they are not getting fully through first crack.  Or  
maybe brought up there too slow.  I had a couply of musty / hay / sour 
batches and eventually attributed it to me not letting it really roast 
fully through first crack.
Resting can make a big difference in coffee.  14 hours is not a lot, try 
them again in a few days, I bet a lot of that might go away.
Also, make sure the water you are using to brew them is the right 
temperature,  I found sometimes when using water that was not hot enough 
the coffee had an 'odd' flavor to it, but when I used the proper hot 
water the taste was a lot better.
Just some suggestions from a non expert.
Aaron

3) From: Kevin
Aaron,
I appreciate the input.  I can try the additional rest since I also roasted
the Monsooned Elephant Sunday so I can brew that Tues (Wed will be the next
El Cipres brew)...Additionally, when I roast again (this weekend) I'll have
to be extra careful to get it through first crack.  It's difficult on a GC
b/c 1st is near impossible to hear.  I go by time, sight, and smell but,
being a rookie, those markers are too subjective to enable me to nail the
roast.  Thanks again.
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

4) From: Eddie Dove
Kevin,
We will have to compare notes and see.  I roasted the same on Saturday in my
Gene Cafe (456F for 15:30).  There is some of the flavor you describe, but I
am also getting some red-grape skin.  So far I do like it, but we'll see how
it progresses.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Kevin  wrote:
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5) From: Ken Mary
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roast.
A low brew temperature may cause your problem, but in my experience, low
temps just make weak coffee. If by sour, you mean tannic (tea-like), you may
not be using enough coffee and getting overextraction. You will also
overextract if the water is too hot, over 205F.
First crack consumes a lot of energy. A too slow approach ramp will stall in
mid-first. If you are using the crack sound as a waypoint, you may be
confused if the pops disappear briefly during the stall. Intending a city
roast, you may think first has ended and wrongly terminate the roast in this
stall period. The first roast with any new bean or lot should be taken at
least to the first snaps of second to establish first crack behavior and
timing for lighter roasts.
You will learn to hear first crack through experience. The brain will learn
to filter out the familiar sound of the roaster, and the pops will stand out
loud and clear.
--

6) From: Kevin
Ken,
I brewed this morning with a Bodum Santos Vacuum brewer which should help
hit a target brew temp of 200F.  I think you hit the nail on the head with
the 2nd paragraph, "First crack consumes a lot of energy. A too slow
approach ramp will stall in mid-first. If you are using the crack sound as a
way point, you may be
confused if the pops disappear briefly during the stall. Intending a city
roast, you may think first has ended and wrongly terminate the roast in this
stall period. The first roast with any new bean or lot should be taken at
least to the first snaps of second to establish first crack behavior and
timing for lighter roasts."
I thought 1st crack was an exothermic reaction and it was recommended to
back off the heat when 1st crack starts?  Should I not back off the heat at
the start of 1st?
I'm a little hesitant to "burn" the beans and I'm killing the roast too
soon. However, when I compare the look of the roasted beans to some old
stock Gevalia Signature Blend, the home roasted beans look much darker, but
taste sour.  The Gevalia has a nice and even brown to dark brown color.
Psychologically, I have it in my head that this is what a city roast should
look like, though this may not be the case.  When I roasted this batch there
was a nice amount of smoke towards the end of the roast so I probably
started 1st crack but didn't finish it.
Maybe I should roast another batch tonight at 482F and just stop the roast
based off of time and not appearance/smell at 18min?  I can supply the roast
log to those who are interested.
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

7) From: Kevin
Would it be possible to interpret very intense red grape skin notes as sour?
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

8) From: Eddie Dove
Not to be flippant, but is it just plain sour or sour with some flavor?  I
like chewing the skins of red grapes and they can be tart.  If it is the
latter, more rest for the coffee may be in order.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Kevin  wrote:
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9) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
red grape skin? to me, thats dry and tannic. how do you describe it?  
From: Eddie Dove [mailto:southcoastcoffeeroaster] 
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:02 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +sour notes in coffee?
Kevin,
We will have to compare notes and see.  I roasted the same on Saturday in my
Gene Cafe (456F for 15:30).  There is some of the flavor you describe, but I
am also getting some red-grape skin.  So far I do like it, but we'll see how
it progresses. 
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Kevin  wrote: 
I was wondering if someone could help me out with this.  All the roasts I
produce (with a GC or IR1) tend to have an overpowering sour taste on the
front of the palate.  Today for example is the Nicaragua CoE #3 El Cipres
roasted to City+ (16min on a GC at 460F).  The dry grinds had a light
butterscotch smell as noted in Tom's review but the cup has an overpower
sour tone to it that fades as it cools (I can't taste/smell berries either).
The bean was only rested 14hrs.  Does this taste diminish with additional
rest, is it an origin characteristic (but I get this taste often) or is it a
roast characteristic? 
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html 

10) From: Kevin
Eddie,
I'm not sure.  The more I think about it, the more it may taste like intense
grape skins if I think red wine (Merlot) and a slight basil (anise?)
aftertase which is more pronounced as the cup cools...
On 11/13/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
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-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

11) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
BTW, if it helps, last time i roasted the el cipres, i wasnt impressed. it
was tart to me. it took 5-6 days before i got any mellow sort of flavor out
of it.
i just roasted a 2nd batch this weekend, so ill be testing it today or tmw..  
From: Eddie Dove [mailto:southcoastcoffeeroaster] 
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:42 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +sour notes in coffee?
Not to be flippant, but is it just plain sour or sour with some flavor?  I
like chewing the skins of red grapes and they can be tart.  If it is the
latter, more rest for the coffee may be in order.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Kevin  wrote: 
Would it be possible to interpret very intense red grape skin notes as sour?
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

12) From: Chad
Kevin,
I too have had this problem lately since I have moved from 0.5lb roasts 
to 1lb roast and the mountain air temp has got colder. I have blamed 
many things such as low water temp, rest, etc. but I too believe a slow 
ramp up to 1st crack is my problem. Dumping 1lb of beans in (whirley 
pop) severely gives me trouble getting the temp up in a hurry, with the 
cold air especially. I am definitely entering 2nd crack so I know that 
is not the problem, gotta be the slow ramp up. Death to the 1lb roast- 
darn.
Chad
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 2:39am, Kevin wrote:
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13) From: Chad
My experience with this problem was that it smelled wonderful but tasted 
like a raw bean. I was confused though because I was taking it to 2nd 
crack and it had a nice color. I'm still thinking slow ramp to 1st.
Chad
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 6:01am, Kevin wrote:
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14) From: Ken Mary
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the start of 1st?
You have to deal with the limits of the machine. Experiment by reducing the
heat just before first begins until you achieve at least 4 minutes elapsed
time from the beginning of first to the beginning of second. You do not want
so much heat after first ends that you immediately run into second.
Depending on your roaster's response to heat, you may have to start the heat
reduction earlier or later than the start of first. Some roasters naturally
"run out of steam", so full heat must be maintained to the finish.
--

15) From: Kevin
I just poured another cup that was sitting in my vac thermos from this
morning. The taste is definitely a strong red grape skin.  It gets stronger
as the cup cools.  This does seem to have a tremendous amount of
brightness.  I think it tastes off to me b/c my preferences lie
towards theless bright coffees...Hopefully as the bean rests the
intensity of this
flavor will decrease.
Thanks for helping me out with this.
On 11/13/06, Ken Mary  wrote:
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-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

16) From: Ed Needham
There's nothing wrong with roasting at an even roaster temperature, at least 
to determine a baseline, then tweak 'only' if you find it necessary.  Many 
competent commercial roasters don't tweak the roaster temperature at all, 
but add the beans when the roaster hits a certain temp and let the roaster 
rise back to that same temp and then hold it through to the finish.
The effect of exothermy on a one or even five pound roast is minimal to 
nearly non-existent.  You will see roaster temps rising when the bean temps 
are nearing roaster temps and are not having such a prominent heatsink 
effect.  Room temp beans absorb a lot of heat energy until they begin to 
heat up.
OK, the point of my post is this.  Don't sweat the small stuff until you 
master the basic stuff.  If you do, it will drive you nuts, and you'll be 
wasting a lot of time and energy doing things that will actually mess up a 
roast.
The basics, as I see them are learning what makes a bean sour, bitter, 
sweet, caramelly, ashy, leathery, etc.  That's not an easy thing to learn, 
since it varies on so many levels.  It will come, but until then, keep it 
simple.  Even when you have mastered those things, you'll find that you are 
roasting more simply rather than futzing around with every little bump in 
the roast curve.  Keep it simple and you'll get better roasts.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
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17) From: Les
Great advice Ed!
Les
On 11/13/06, Ed Needham  wrote:
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18) From: Eddie Dove
Brilliant advice!  Thank you so much, Ed!
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Ed Needham  wrote:
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19) From: Kevin
Ed,
Being the type to obsess about details (OCD?)  I'm going to tack your
message up infront of my roaster as a constant reminder to Keep It
Simple...thanks!
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

20) From: raymanowen
Kevin, I found myself getting Snookered!
The wheels were slowly coming off everything I brewed except in the press
pot.
The Creeping Crud was overtaking my automatic brewing equipment in a process
known as  G-R-A-D-U-L-I-S-M. [Gradually getting more Filthy!] I was sure I
was keeping things pristine, almost to a white glove inspection, until I
remembered the entire weekends I used to spend polishing wire wheels and
engine- which didn't change the ride one bit. Sick.
I was pushing the roast further towards a "busy" 2nd Crack to move away from
brightness. Why was I having to do this, since the first time I roasted into
2nd Crack the flavor almost blew me away?
A few hours of cleaning saved my having to buy new equipment to get clean.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

21) From: Fancye9876
Hi Kevin,
 
I am also new to roasting with the Gene and have noticed the same sour  notes 
you are talking about.  Today I tried some of the Colombia Huila I  roasted 
two days ago and took a sip of it black.  It had that sour wine  taste but I 
also thought it tasted kinda fruity and was not sure if I messed the  roast up 
or if my taste buds were starting to wake up.  I went ahead and  put my usual 
half and half in it and it was really good.  Very smooth and  not sour.  My 
hubby even asked what kind it was and thought this was the  best yet.  We have 
been drinking Folgers out of a perc for years and just  recently got a 
Technivorm and a roaster.  I think because the folgers was  so bad we made it very 
weak. I still only used 6 heaping Tbls in the TV this  morning, however I may not 
be using enough coffee and over extracting.   Ohhh, I just took a sip of the 
cooled coffee and almost go a nutty flavor and  this is the bottom of the cup.
 
Susanna

22) From: Les
So Kevin and Susanna are you both using Gene roasters?  My advice with any
new to you roaster is to pick (a) a less expensive bean or (b) one you
really don't like and roast your bean all the way to the charred state,
making notes of when things happen.  This will give you a good idea of when
1st crack begins, how long the pause is between 1st and 2nd, and how long
and violent 2nd crack is.  I would also highly recommend a scale and weigh
your beans rather than use a measuring device if you are not doing so
already.  You get a much more accurate roast doing it by weight than by
volume.  I sure would like to play with a Gene!  Sour notes are usually an
indication that the beans have not been evenly roasted through.  My
suggestion would be to go to a slightly smaller load of beans.
Les
On 11/13/06, Fancye9876  wrote:
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23) From: Eddie Dove
Les,
Bring the Cremina and we'll play with the Gene as much as you like.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Les  wrote:
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24) From: Les
Where do you hang your hat?
Les
On 11/13/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
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25) From: Eddie Dove
Long Beach, Mississippi
On 11/13/06, Les  wrote:
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26) From: Les
I would love to come and visit, but it is a long way from Oregon.   I looked
at your picture, aren't you a bit young to be riding that Harley?
Les
On 11/13/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
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27) From: Eddie Dove
Aren't you due for a vacation?  Bring both mates ... the door is always
open.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
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28) From: Kevin
Les,
My usual batch size is 8oz (weighed w/a cheap W-mart analog scale).  I'll
cut my batch size back a little next time.  I think I may be stalling the
roast in 1st crack though b/c I pull the temp back at 1st crack and the
smoke being produced from the roaster lessens (just about disappears).  When
I turn the heat back up the smoke returns.  That's why I'm thinking Ed may
be correct.  I'll try keeping the temp constant at 482 (Tom's tip sheet) and
see if the results are different.  I have 1lb of the El Cipres left so I can
keep the bean constant.
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

29) From: Les
I'll talk it over with the wife.  The Cremina is small enough to take on a
plane.  Maybe we should take this off the list.
Les
On 11/13/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
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30) From: Eddie Dove
I just look good for my age ... really good!
That is my youngest ... Wyatt ... about a year or so ago.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Les  wrote:
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31) From: Fancye9876
Thanks Les,
 
I do have a scale and have used 3oz, 6oz, and 8oz.  Before the Gene I  used a 
poppery I for about 5 or 6 roasts and soon decided doing those small  amounts 
would be to time consuming.   So, I jumped right in to a Gene  with little 
experience.  I did a test yesterday with the poppery and then  did some of the 
same beans in the Gene.  Tried to stay close to the same  amount but used 3oz 
in the Gene.   Just want to see if there is a  difference.  The poppery is 
really fast even in a cold garage.  The  only time I have seen much smoke  with 
the Gene is on this last batch of  8oz of the Huila and so far it is the best. 
The cracks are hard to hear and  I am probably going into second crack without 
realizing it. I do hear first  crack but it is just a few pops maybe 4 or 5, 
so not sure when first crack  finishes yet. I have been kinda going by smell 
and color. Gonna have to  get  1lb of those cheapie beans from SM and do as you 
suggested.   Right now I am desperate for good coffee and just want to get 
some roasted up so  I don't have to dip into the Folgers can.
 
Susanna

32) From: Les
Kevin,
One big difference with your roaster and the RK is the time it takes for
things to change.  When I drop the heat at 1st crack, I don't see any
temperature drop for at least 90 seconds.  I would guess the Gene it would
happen almost right away.  In my Popper roasting if I wanted to slow a roast
down, I would do it when the beans turned the straw color and you got the
grassy smell.  I don't know if you can see the beans in the Gene, but if you
can that might be the place in your profile to slow it down a bit.  This is
where the bean really expands and getting heat in at that point in the roast
is critical for a nice even roast.  By slowing the roast down at that place
in the profile, it allows the heat to get into the bean before the
carmalization begins to insulate the interior of the bean.
Les
On 11/13/06, Kevin  wrote:
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33) From: Kevin
Les,
You can see the beans in the GC and, considering the volume of the roast
chamber, the temp would drop rapidly relative to in RK when the set point is
reduced.  It'd be pretty easy to drop the temp when the beans are grassy.
On my next attempt I'll set the GC at 465 throughout the roast.  The volume
of the GC is relatively small and I'd bet thermostat is really just on/off
(no ramping or throttling) so the heating element will be full blast until
460~465 is reached.  At that point the element will turn off and it'll be
far enough into the roast where the beans are stray colored and the smell is
grassy.  This fits with my roast notes.  I figure a 16 to 18 minute roast
should put me at City to City+ and I was trying to get too fancy with temp
profiles (my OCD kicking in again, or is it too much caffeine?).
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

34) From: Eddie Dove
Tell the Cap't to swing by Norfolk to pick up your other half then drop you
off at either the port at Gulfport or Pascagoula.  Bring the heat gun, dog
bowl and Bug.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)  wrote:
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y
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en
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h
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n
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sed
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and
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 so
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35) From: Eddie Dove
Thanks for that, Les.  Never thought about it that way ... this will be
mulling around in my mind for quite a while.
Eddie
On 11/13/06, Les  wrote:
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36) From: Tim Wat
Les wrote:
<Snip>
Les:
Your post is certainly timely.  Last night while roasting on my SC/TO, I 
pondering a previous thread I remembered about slowing down the roast 
(vs. stalling it). 
In slowing down the roast when you reach the straw color/grassy smell, 
where are you looking to stabilize temp at?  And at what point do you 
look to speed the roast back up (if you do)?
tim

37) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Dry and tannic= Bright in coffee right?
 
Dennis
AKA
FC1(SW) Dennis W. True
CS/CS-5
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69)
FPO AE 09532-2830
 
Man of many hats!
HG/DB and Z&D roasting in the Indian Ocean
 "On station and on point 171 and counting..." 
"Direct support for troops on the ground is only a call away!"

38) From: Blake D. Ratliff
That is what I am thinking.  The first batch of Costa Rica Tarazu La Minta I 
roasted had that sour taste.  I simply roated it a little longer and darker 
next time and the sour went away.  Great stuff.
Blake

39) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I'M DUE for a vacation Next May or June if we get home on time!!!!!
Fingers Crossed!!
 
Dennis
AKA
FC1(SW) Dennis W. True
CS/CS-5
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69)
FPO AE 09532-2830
 
Man of many hats!
HG/DB and Z&D roasting in the Indian Ocean
 "On station and on point 171 and counting down..." 
"Direct support for troops on the ground is only a call away!"

40) From: Ed Needham
I spend a lot of roasting time playing with my three golden retrievers and 
puttering around my workshop.  I usually take a homebrew out with me and it 
becomes a special time.  Maybe even a meditation of sorts, with the shh shh 
shh shh of the drum tossing the beans in a rhythmic cadence.  Of course I 
have a system, and for the most part it is routine, but an occasional glance 
to the roaster and bean temps and the smell of the roast is about all I need 
to get a decent roast.  The last minute or two, I get serious and shoo the 
dogs to the yard so I can pull the roast at the right time.
Once in a while I get a bean that is persnickety, and has a small window for 
the sweet spot.  Sometimes I miss.  It will be drinkable, but maybe not like 
the last batch.  Sometimes, like the last two roasts of a Colombian that I 
had almost given up on as being 'past crop' and a waste of my roasting time, 
the roaster brings out the flavors I was looking for, and it makes me feel 
competent.  Of course, the next roast will bring me back to my senses, but 
hey, it was fun while it lasted.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

41) From: Ed Needham
The lighter you roast, the more fruity acids (and possible sourness) you 
will perceive.  Those acids--acetic (vinegary), malic (apple), ascorbic 
(citrusy) to name three of the most common ones, burn off as the roast 
progresses.  There are a number of other 'green' tastes that also contribute 
to sourness.
-Beans that are roasted too hot will look like they are fully roasted, but 
will be under-roasted in the center.  A test is that the ground beans are 
the same color as the whole beans.
-Beans that are roasted too fast might be bright and possibly seem sour.
-Beans that are roasted too light may be sour.
-the inherent characteristic of some coffee beans is a citrusy sourness. 
Some Kenyas are citrusy sour.  I frequently find an undesirable sourness in 
some of the hybrids like caturra and catuai.  I generally avoid them, but 
sometimes find one I like.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

42) From: Leo Zick
Wow...great list!! 
Where does the bean, that when ground, shows lots of very light particles in
it, fit in?  They also seem to be lighter in weight too, as they fly around
when I grind.  Almost like a skin or something. 
Is this the inside being under roasted?  Its not with all beans, some just
have more light fines than others, even if I use the same roasting profile.

43) From: Kevin
Leo,
Sounds like you're seeing chaff in the grinds which I think is normal and
doesn't impact cup quality.
On 11/14/06, Leo Zick  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Kevin
"I got a fever and the only prescription... is more cowbell"
  -The legendary Bruce Dickinsonhttp://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/snl-more-cowbell.html

44) From: hermit
Are you sure it isn't chaff?
Rich
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45) From: Leo Zick
Could be, but it normally all flies away while I roast. I suppose some could
stick to the beans..

46) From: hermit
First of all it will depend on the origin of the bean.  I roasted a
Dolce blend for espresso this morning, and hardly any chaff.  Other
beans produce a lot of chaff, other not so much.  Here's what I do to
get rid of any leftovers.  I pour the roasted beans in a collander -
mix the beans with my hand offering a slight squeeze during the
process.  I toss the beans back and forth into another collander - do
this outside; the slightest breeze will blow the chaff away.
Hope this helps.
Rich
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 of 
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<Snip>
unsvbscribes) go to =http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

47) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Juan_M._J=E1come?=
I've noticed that some beans will keep a small mount of chaff in the seams,
and depending on the origin and degree of roast, it may look lighter than
the bean's roast color. Maybe DP vs WP coffees?
My two cents.
Juan M.
2006/11/14, hermit :
<Snip>

48) From: Ed Needham
The chaff in the bean crack will remain light until the roast hits about 
full city and further.  It is a good indicator of roast level if you can see 
the beans as they roast.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

49) From: Steve Hay
As was mentioned by someone in this thread but not emphasized, I'd like like
to say not to underestimate the importance of a proper grind.  Especially
with drip, if you grind too fine, its been my experience that undesirable
sourness comes out.
On 11/13/06, Kevin  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Steven Hay
hay.steve -AT- gmail.com
Barry Paradox: Consider k to be the greatest element of the set of natural
numbers whose description require maximum of 50 words: "(k+1) is a natural
number which requires more than 50 words to describe it."

50) From: Dave Ehrenkranz
--Apple-Mail-6-649308408
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Hmmm.. so if the chaff in the crach is still a light color I have not  
reached full city. That will help me better judge my roast level. Do  
others agree with this?
dave
On Nov 15, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
--Apple-Mail-6-649308408
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Hmmm.. so if the chaff in the =
crach is still a light color I have not reached full city. That will =
help me better judge my roast level. Do others agree with this?
dave = On Nov 15, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Ed Needham wrote:

The chaff = in the bean crack will remain light until the roast hits about full city = and further.  It is a = good indicator of roast level if you can see the beans as they = roast.

= --Apple-Mail-6-649308408--

51) From: jim gundlach
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This is exactly one of the reasons I like to do my first roast of a  
new coffee in the wok, I can really see what is going on and that  
includes seeing the color of the pinched in the crack chaff.
     Pecan Jim
On Nov 15, 2006, at 7:21 PM, Dave Ehrenkranz wrote:
<Snip>
--Apple-Mail-7-653286787
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This is exactly one of the =
reasons I like to do my first roast of a new coffee in the wok, I can =
really see what is going on and that includes seeing the color of the =
pinched in the crack chaff.    Pecan Jim
On Nov =
15, 2006, at 7:21 PM, Dave Ehrenkranz wrote:
Hmmm.. so = if the chaff in the crach is still a light color I have not reached full = city. That will help me better judge my roast level. Do others agree = with this?
dave = On Nov 15, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Ed Needham wrote:The chaff in the bean crack = will remain light until the roast hits about full city and further.  It is a good indicator of = roast level if you can see the beans as they roast. = = --Apple-Mail-7-653286787--

52) From: Brian Kamnetz
Steve,
I agree with that. I have lots of problems hitting the sweet spot with the
grind, swing back and forth from underextraction and a bit thin to
overextration and a bit bitter.
Brian
On 11/15/06, Steve Hay  wrote:
<Snip>

53) From: Ed Needham
I wouldn't make it a hard fast rule.  It's just a marker of a certain point 
at 'about' full city.  You'll see changes near the end of a roast that 
become markers for the trained eye.  The look and 'finish' of the bean 
surface smoothes out and becomes a matte texture at one point.  The chaff 
changes color at another.  Little beads of oil begin to appear at another. 
Smoke smell changes at another.  All are just indicators of the roast and 
not linked in to the city, full city, etc designations.  Those designations 
are practically worthless except for marketing to the masses.  I'd say that 
'full city' could last practically a full minute of the roast, but the sweet 
spot lasts only seconds.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

54) From: raymanowen
Wow!   "...used 6 heaping Tbls..."   Excuse me, but that's the way you would
specify and measure F*olgers and other commercial preground stuff.
I don't mean to sound sardonic, but this sounds like a cop-out when you've
purchased some of the most exclusive coffee beans in the world. You spent a
lot of time and effort learning to achieve the perfect roast with your
favorite beans.
It doesn't sound like convenience is your goal, or you'd be doing *$, F* or
M* preground. How much coffee is in "6 heaping Tbls?" You bought them by
weight, and I'd recommend roasting and brewing the same way.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
use a heaping liter of water!

55) From: Fancye9876
I do roast by weight and excuuuuse me for being such a  wuss.  

56) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
im curious now.  what do ppl use for brewed coffee dosages?  i have a spoon
from my espresso maker, its about 1 tbl in size.  i use 1-1.5 scoops of
whole beans per cup of coffee, whether it be press pot or filter cup. the
only thing i adjust then is brew time, less if i went finer or more for
course.  
From: raymanowen [mailto:raymanowen] 
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 12:38 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +sour notes in coffee?
Wow!   "...used 6 heaping Tbls..."   Excuse me, but that's the way you would
specify and measure F*olgers and other commercial preground stuff.
I don't mean to sound sardonic, but this sounds like a cop-out when you've
purchased some of the most exclusive coffee beans in the world. You spent a
lot of time and effort learning to achieve the perfect roast with your
favorite beans. 
It doesn't sound like convenience is your goal, or you'd be doing *$, F* or
M* preground. How much coffee is in "6 heaping Tbls?" You bought them by
weight, and I'd recommend roasting and brewing the same way. 
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
use a heaping liter of water! 

57) From: Justin Marquez
On 11/16/06, Leo Zick  wrote:
<Snip>
I use about 1 gr coffee per liquid ounce of water.  I typically
measure it out in 10 gr increments - 1/8 cup = "very close to 10 gr of
unground, roasted coffee beans". Occasionally with some beans I will
kick that up to about 1.3 to 1.5 "just because". Tom's current
"Columbian Excelsio 1556" (or whatever that number is...) is one with
which I add extra coffee to the pot.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)

58) From: Leo Zick
I missed this the first time around, perfect correlation. 
Thank you..

59) From: Ross
Hi Blake,
I just cupped a batch of Costa Rica Tarazu that I roasted in my IRoast2 and 
it was distinctly sour.  At first I thought it was my Bunn brewer temp, so I 
tried every other brewing method with no improvement in taste.  The I Roast 
is a fast roaster and it is difficult to slow the roast at any point.  Most 
of my roasts finish first and enter 2nd somewhere between 7 and 8 minutes. 
I am having a hard time producing a City to City + that does not have a sour 
note.  I have tried smaller batches in hopes of slower temp rises with some 
success but still not what I want.  If anyone has some other ideas please 
post.  For now I too am pushing to Full City to avoid sour.
Regards,
Ross
Subject: Re: +sour notes in coffee?
<Snip>

60) From: Les
Ross,
I am sorry to hear you are having trouble with the CRT.  It has one of the
narrowest sweet spots of any coffee I have roasted.  When you hit the sweet
spot it is one of the best coffees I have had.
Les
On 12/11/06, Ross  wrote:
<Snip>

61) From: Vicki Smith
I'd contact Hearthware. My IR2 routinely can go about 10 minutes, on 
preset2, before even beginning 2nd crack.
vicki
Ross wrote:
   Most of my roasts finish first and enter 2nd
<Snip>

62) From: Blake R.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I had the same issue with the costa Rica Taruzu.  Try a slower roasting =
profile on your i-Roast with low 300s temps for at least the first 4 =
minutes.  Roast it to a C+ to FC.  Let this coffee reast for at least 4 =
days.  I had the same issue with the sour taste with this bean even when =
skillet roasting!  Resting this coffee in addition to the correct roast =
makes all of the difference.  Stay out of a C roast and go to at least =
C+.  I think the sweet spot is at the borderline between C+ and FC.  Be =
of good cheer, you will be able to nail it with your iRoast once you =
learn the bean.  I though this coffee was very good after a week's rest.
Blake

63) From: b cook
I got a lot of negative sour notes when I first started roasting from not
carrying the beans along far enough and/or from baking them.  I think this
is a common problem for beginners and underlines even more the benefit of
taking a roast from green to charcoal just to familiarize oneself with the
stages.  This isn't addressed at anyone in particular as everyone roasting
here and getting a sour problem might not be new to roasting but I just
thought I'd add this for anyone who reads this thread and IS new to the
hobby.
I think this will be a common problem especially during this time of the
year for new roasters who are just starting out and using fluid-bed roasters
such as air poppers and the Fresh Roast.  The cool ambient temps can easily
make for baked beans if you don't have your batch sizes and roasting methods
down pat.
I remember having some awfully bad Sidamo and Huehuetenango that had been
baked or underroasted.  That wild Sidamo can get especially bad if not
roasted properly!
bc
On 12/11/06, Blake R.  wrote:
<Snip>

64) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-201-756620726
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Wow. 10 min. on preset 2 for me is practically Vienna.
On Dec 11, 2006, at 4:56 PM, Vicki Smith wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
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Wow. 10 min. on preset 2 for me =
is practically Vienna.
On Dec 11, 2006, at 4:56 PM, Vicki =
Smith wrote:

My IR2 = routinely can go about 10 minutes, on preset2, before even beginning 2nd = crack.

Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-201-756620726--

65) From: Michael Guterman
Voltage really counts.  My Hottop used to use all the pluses just to 
reach second crack.  There was a storm and the electric company replaced 
a transformer outside the house.  I never even have to use a single 
plus, now.
Michael
Sandy Andina wrote:
<Snip>

66) From: Vicki Smith
This is my 2nd IR2. My first was like that, sandy.
v
Sandy Andina wrote:
<Snip>

67) From: Ross
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
10 min on preset 2 in my Iroast2 would be a fire and complete melt down. =
 There must be some major differences in these machines.  I will get =
Vienna/French/oil and smoke at about 6 minutes on either preset 1 or 2 =
on my I-roast, when first crack starts I have less than one minute to =
make up my mind because it will go from city to oil and heavy smoke in =
one minute.  I have reduced the roast sizes to 1/2 cup about 80gr and =
still get a fast roast with a 100ft extension cord outside in the =
winter, of course I live in Tucson but that is the truth my I roast is =
one fast roaster.  I have started leaving the top of the chaff collector =
floating instead of latched and that helps a little.  I am also =
programming a long warm-up like 6 minutes at 340 just to get the whole =
bean warm before I ramp the heat up, I'm not totally happy with the =
results yet and am still looking for some ideas.
regards,
ross

68) From: Vicki Smith
Sometimes you just get a lemon, Ross. Contact the dealer and see if they 
will deal with hearthware for you, or handle it themselves.
v
Ross wrote:
<Snip>


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