HomeRoast Digest


Topic: grinder, grinder, grinder (26 msgs / 753 lines)
1) From: Julie H Tieszen
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I've been on this list long enough to hear this quite a bit. It has been =
firmly established that the grinder is one of the most important items =
in the whole coffee experience. Now..I have a question. I am going to =
buy a Technivorm. I use a whirly grinder. Will a better grinder REALLY =
make a difference for drip coffee, especially if I use Tom's technique =
of having the filter on "no-drip" for the first 2 minutes to allow the =
grinds to be fully infused?
Thanks,
Julie

2) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
if you buy a good grinder and make cowboy coffee with the grinds youll
notice a diff..  
From: Julie H Tieszen [mailto:julieht] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 2:28 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: +grinder, grinder, grinder
I've been on this list long enough to hear this quite a bit. It has been
firmly established that the grinder is one of the most important items in
the whole coffee experience. Now..I have a question. I am going to buy a
Technivorm. I use a whirly grinder. Will a better grinder REALLY make a
difference for drip coffee, especially if I use Tom's technique of having
the filter on "no-drip" for the first 2 minutes to allow the grinds to be
fully infused?
 
Thanks,
Julie

3) From: Brett Mason
Fully infused can become fully bitter if you have too many "fines" or
fine particles in there.  A good burr grinder will shave your bean to
the requisite size, without creating fines.
Down with bitter coffee....
Brett
On 12/20/06, Julie H Tieszen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

4) From: Lynne
--Apple-Mail-2--642171404
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charsetO-8859-1;
	format=flowed
I know this is going to amount to blasphemy...but..
Lately I have been doing a side-by-side comparison. Well, actually, an =
in-succession comparison. I'll make a little Moka pot using my trusty 
Zass (purchased used) grinder, then, for second cup, I'll use my ol' 
Braun whirly grinder.
I really can't tell the difference. (gasps from the masses!!)
Now, I haven't tried the same w/my KMB, mostly because the KMB makes a =
larger amt., & I'd really be bouncing off the walls if I consume that 
amt of coffee in a short period of time. Keep in mind I have allergies =
& some sort of nasal problem that may impair my senses.
All I know is this will make serving coffee a LOT easier during the 
rare times I actually have company.
Still use the Zass for daily use, esp. w/roasts which I know are 
really, really good - don't want to tempt fate!
Lynne
On Dec 20, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Julie H Tieszen wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
--Apple-Mail-2--642171404
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/enriched;
	charsetO-8859-1
I know this is going to amount to blasphemy...but..
Lately I have been doing a side-by-side comparison. Well, actually, an
in-succession comparison. I'll make a little Moka pot using my trusty
Zass (purchased used) grinder, then, for second cup, I'll use my ol'
Braun whirly grinder.
I really can't tell the difference. (gasps from the masses!!)
Now, I haven't tried the same w/my KMB, mostly because the KMB makes a
larger amt., & I'd really be bouncing off the walls if I consume that
amt of coffee in a short period of time. Keep in mind I have allergies
& some sort of nasal problem that may impair my senses.
All I know is this will make serving coffee a LOT easier during the
rare times I actually have company.
Still use the Zass for daily use, esp. w/roasts which I know are
really, really good - don't want to tempt fate!
Lynne
On Dec 20, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Julie H Tieszen wrote:
ArialI've been on this
list long enough to hear this quite a bit. It has been firmly
established that the grinder is one of the most important items in the
whole coffee experience. Now..I have a question. I am going to buy a
Technivorm. I use a whirly grinder. Will a better grinder REALLY make
a difference for drip coffee, especially if I use Tom's technique of
having the filter on "no-drip" for the first 2 minutes to allow the
grinds to be fully infused?
 
ArialThanks,
=
ArialJulie=
--Apple-Mail-2--642171404--

5) From: Eddie Dove
Julie, Julie, Julie ... finger tapping ... ;-)
Yes, it will make a difference,  especially if you use that technique
because it cause the water to be in contact with the ground coffee longer.
The more dust (fines) the more over-extraction, which means BITTER.  I
upgraded from a KitchenAid Pro Line to a Mazzer Mini and the difference was
immense.  I did however get great coffee with the KitchenAid Pro Line and
Technivorm Moccamaster CD.  I was going to keep the KitchenAid Pro Line as a
backup grinder, but someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  Now I have
to buy another backup grinder which will either be a Rancilio Rocky or
another Mazzer.
Hope this helps ...
Eddie
Long Beach, MS
On 12/20/06, Julie H Tieszen  wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: Jeff Bensen
At 02:28 PM 12/20/2006, Julie H Tieszen wrote:
<Snip>
I brew using Technivorm, Press and Vac Pots, and found a noticeable 
difference between a whirly grinder and the SMP.
I believe it has to do with the uniformity of the grind, with the 
whirly producing far greater variation in particle sizes and a fair 
amount of 'dust'.
The SMP does not produce a perfectly uniform grind, but it is worlds 
better than the whirly and I can truly taste the difference in the 
cup. The whirly seems to produce a more bitter tasting brew.
I plan on upgrading to a Rocky early next year in my quest for an 
even better grind.
Some of this is, of course, subjective. My wife uses flavored 
creamers in her coffee and cannot tell the difference in grind. I 
drink it black, and to me the difference is night and day.
- Jeff Bensen
   Palm Bay, FL 

7) From: Vicki Smith
I have no doubt that if your journey begins and ends with a Technivorm, 
a lower price burr grinder, like the Solis Master Plus Tom sells will do 
just fine. I use a Solis Master Classic and get fine coffee for my KMB 
and other coffee brewing methods.
The deal is that if you go with a less expensive machine now, you need 
to budget for a higher end grinder if and when you make the transition 
to espresso. That's not such a bad thing, as you will probably continue 
to make coffee too, and you won't have to mess with the settings as much 
as you go back and forth.
My plan: PID'd Sylvia with Mazzer Mini upstairs in the kitchen, coffee 
making shtuff and the Solis Classic in the downstairs sorta kitchen 
area, by our office.
v

8) From: Julie H Tieszen
Thanks to all who responder to my grinder and heat gun question! I 
understand now about the grinder issue. I may save up for the solis....but I 
definately want the Technivorm first. I can hardly stand to drink the coffee 
out of my Braun pot any longer!! I've been pouring through a filter for my 
afternoon one cup of coffee, but in the morning I make a full pot and it 
takes too long for the pour over method.
Julie

9) From: John Blumel
On Dec 20, 2006, at 2:39 pm, Lynne wrote:
<Snip>
Well, as many who've been on the list for a while know, I'm something  
of a contrarian on this issue. I haven't done enough Moka pot brewing  
to be able to include it, but I would rank various brewing methods  
according to their sensitivity to grind quality, in descending order,  
thusly:
- espresso
- vac pot
- press pot
- drip
Despite all the words expended extolling the virtues of owning the  
best possible grinder, I think a lot of what is written suffers from  
confirmation bias (of course that expensive grinder you just bought  
makes infinitely better coffee) and that most people probably  
couldn't tell the difference in a blind test, over a number of  
trials, using a mazzer mini and a whirly blade, used with good  
technique, when brewing in a press pot or drip. There are so many  
other variables involved that grind differences would be only one of  
many factors effecting the resulting cup. Even if we assume that the  
mazzer wins out in these tests, I would assert that, if it were  
possible to quantifying the differences with accuracy, they would not  
be as great as one might expect, given the rhetoric on the subject.
Yes, for espresso you need the best possible grinder. (But, with  
apologies to Pecan Jim, I reject his notion that the espresso machine  
is an accessory to the grinder; in my opinion, they are at least of  
equal importance.) Vac pots are also very sensitive to grind,  
especially excess fines, which may cause stalls, but a Solis (or,  
based on third party reports, a Capresso Infinity) will grind quite  
well for a vac pot. And even Tom Owen states that a whirly blade can  
do a good job for drip.
All else being equal, and money, counter space or your marriage not  
being an issue, sure, get the best grinder that money can buy. Other  
than that, I suggest weighing your finances, space, brewing methods,  
and extent of your fanaticism to decide which grinder is best for  
you, and not allow blanket statements that you must own a Rocky or  
better to overly influence your judgement.
One issue that's often brought up is that with more expensive  
grinders it is possible to replace the burrs, whereas, with less  
expensive grinders this isn't possible, or, as with the Solis  
grinders, only the top burr is replaceable. This is promoted as  
making the more expensive grinders cheaper over time. However,  
considering that a Mazzer Mini goes for around $475 these days  
(that's from memory, so I apologize if I'm mistaken) you could buy 5  
Capresso Infinity grinders, over the years, with money left over, for  
what a Mini and set of replacement burrs would cost. If you're  
grinding for drip, which of those choices will have the longest  
lifetime? I'm not sure anyone has the answer to that, but if money is  
an issue, the Infinity won't make nearly the hit on your immediate  
cash flow, and will do a fine (no pun intended) job for most brewing  
methods.
All that being said, and in the interests of full disclosure, I will  
state that I own a Mazzer Mini, a Solis 166, and a Zassenhaus #156  
(for travel and power outages) -- there's also a whirly blade around  
somewhere, but I've lost track of exactly where it is.
John Blumel

10) From:
Julie:
Great question. I would say no if you shake, toss and bang the whirly blade around when you grind...
that said you need to taste the difference yourself.
I have a Model 169 DG Closed Hopper Zassenhaus, see Tom's site, that I bought from Tom a bit over a year ago that is sitting in my coffee quiver at the ready for camping. I would be delighted to send it to you to try out for 90 days or so to see/taste the difference.
If you are have any questions about the Zass ask Brett, aka Zassman...
Please email me off list Julie at:
thegster
with your address etc.
I will send it next week. I refuse to go to UPS or the PO until after Christmas.
ginny
---- Julie H Tieszen  wrote: 
<Snip>

11) From: Jared Andersson
Thanks to Ray's input on this list I now have a spare top and
bottomreplacement burr for my Solis grinder.  I do not use my Solis
for espresso
and I have used it daily for over a year now.  I love it.  Now that the
burrs can be replaced I think it represents the best quality for cost
balance for non-espresso grinding.   On a side note.  Wouldn't a hand crank
grinder need burr replacement just as often (pounds of coffee) as a Solis?
This is assuming you are not grinding for espresso where the slower rotation
speed of a hand grinder might reduce touching of the burrs.  Jared
On 12/20/06, John Blumel  wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: Brett Mason
Hand grinders may need sharpening, but as Tom points out, the Zass
never needs sharpening, if you use the rice method.  Turns out he
doesn't mention minute rice there either...
See http://www.sweetmarias.com/zas.instructions.html for Tom's comments...
Brett
On 12/20/06, Jared Andersson  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

13) From: Barry Luterman
Oh Contraire
* Every 3 months, grind 1/3 cup of "minute rice" to keep the burrs clean. 
Some people prefer to use Grape Nuts cereal for this!

14) From: raymanowen
Julie, I got a Technivorm KB-741 when I had just gotten the Solis Maestro
Plus grinder- up from a Capresso mill.
I was using the Solis for the TV and a Capresso espresso maker, and was
dismayed that the grinder ran fine but produced grind that looked quite
uneven at the coarse settings- excess fines.
Having spent apx. $200 on the "$149" grinder and replacement burrs in an
attempt to get a serviceable ring burr in the deal, I found a new home for
the Solis and its fraternal twin, the Bodum Antigua. The next grinder was
going to be my Solution!
Fourbucks Coffee* had just retooled all their shops with upgraded push
button equipment and flooded the market with Hundreds of Mazzer grinders,
etc. I think miKe posted the tip that eBay had several Mazzer Majors on the
block, and I got one of those Biggies. [* Not Their Real Name]
Domenic, the seller, told me the burrs weren't new but very serviceable. But
after ten years of commercial use, they did show minor deterioration. The
Place of Fabled Heat will be frozen over by the time the new burrs show
 wear, and the beans appreciate it. Tremendous good coffee grinding and
terrific range of adjustment.
Winter doesn't happen for a few more hours, but Denver will be ready. Open
the door to Hades, and I might have to get another new grinder right soon.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich
On 12/20/06, Julie H Tieszen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

15) From: Brett Mason
I stand corrected - Tom does mention further down the page that minute
rice can keep the burrs clean....
Tom does get me thinking though:  Can the Zassenhaus grind finer?
Sure! The burrs are tool grade steel. Personally, I use my box mill
for espresso, and set it at a point where the burrs meet Fully!. Don't
be afraid ; they can handle it.
So the point is, tool grade steel burrs can withstand the grind when
touching eachother, but not regular rice.  Minute rice is OK though...
I am soooo confused...  I did propose pablum as a cleaning method in the past...
- - -
This is a lot like seminary where we rehash teh same arguments, the
same ways, to the same contrary conclusions, to prove we exist and
that we know whereof we write...
Welcome,
Brett
On 12/20/06, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

16) From: John F Coffey
--Apple-Mail-1--627101113
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
Hi Julie,
One word answer:
YES!!
--John
On Dec 20, 2006, at 11:28 AM, Julie H Tieszen wrote:
<Snip>
--------------
   John F. Coffey
   Email - john
   P.O. Box 524			
   Blaine, WA  98231
--Apple-Mail-1--627101113
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
Hi Julie,
One word = answer:
YES!!
--John On Dec 20, 2006, at 11:28 AM, Julie H Tieszen wrote:
I've been on this list = long enough to hear this quite a bit. It has been firmly established = that the grinder is one of the most important items in the whole coffee = experience. Now..I have a question. I am going to buy a Technivorm. I = use a whirly grinder. Will a better grinder REALLY make a difference for = drip coffee, especially if I use Tom's technique of having the filter on = "no-drip" for the first 2 minutes to allow the grinds to be fully = infused?  = --------------  John F. = Coffey  Email - john  P.O. Box 524 =   Blaine, WA  98231


= = --Apple-Mail-1--627101113--

17) From: Eddie Dove
Especially with a Swissgold filter, which I highly recommend.
Hope this helps ...
Respectfully,
Eddie
On 12/20/06, John F Coffey  wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Aaron
Great post John and well said.
in some instances you need a very precise grinder, but in others you don't.
Also some folks brewing methods they may taste the difference between 
the two where someone elses methods, they don't.
Coffee is only as good as it tastes to the person drinking it.  If a 
whirly blade gives them coffee they appreciate, then so be it.
how fine is fine before it becomes fines?
as george carlin said.
If you break a crumb in half do you have half a crumb... or two crumbs???
Aaron

19) From: Les
Grinding is not a skill.  Grinding is done by a precision instrument that
needs to be calibrated to the brew.  The more precise the grinding
instrument, the more even the grind the more even the extraction no matter
the method.  Roasting is a skill, pulling shots is a skill.  A paper filter
can help with an uneven grind.  The fines will clog in the paper helping the
smaller particles from over extracting.  This doesn't work as well when it
comes to a Swiss Gold or a Vac Pot with a Cory Rod.  The grinder is the most
important tool in brewing coffee.  Some methods of extraction are more
demanding than others.
Les
On 12/20/06, Aaron  wrote:
<Snip>

20) From: Brent - SC/TO Roasting
Julie,
You will notice a difference with a better grinder.  I was a long-time hold
out on the grinder.  When I got into espresso, I bought a Rocky and also use
it for my drip.  It makes a big difference (think of the first time you
tasted your homeroasted).  You will definitely notice a difference.
Also, I'd watch the Technivorm if you're planning on on leaving it on "no
drip" for two minutes.  You'll either need to to pull the carafe away when
the basket is about 3/4 full.  Leaving mine on no drip for 2 minutes yields
a mess.  I'll usually let the basket fill about 3/4 full, pull the carafe
away, wait 30 seconds, stir, and start the drip.
-- 
Brent
My coffee is better than it tastes
On 12/20/06, Julie H Tieszen  wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-322--606982522
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
I leave mine on "no drip" until the water level in the tank has  
fallen to half-full. I remove the lid from the filter, stir, re- 
cover, and then open the slide to half-speed drip until all the water  
is out of the tank, at which point I open the slide all the way.  I  
have an 8-cupper.
On Dec 20, 2006, at 10:40 PM, Brent - SC/TO Roasting wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
--Apple-Mail-322--606982522
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
I leave mine on "no drip" until =
the water level in the tank has fallen to half-full. I remove the lid =
from the filter, stir, re-cover, and then open the slide to half-speed =
drip until all the water is out of the tank, at which point I open the =
slide all the way.  I have an 8-cupper.
On Dec 20, 2006, =
at 10:40 PM, Brent - SC/TO Roasting wrote:
Also, I'd watch the = Technivorm if you're planning on on leaving it on "no drip" for two = minutes.  You'll either need to to pull the carafe away when the = basket is about 3/4 full.  Leaving mine on no drip for 2 minutes = yields a mess.  I'll usually let the basket fill about 3/4 full, pull = the carafe away, wait 30 seconds, stir, and start the drip.  Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-322--606982522--

22) From: Paul Carder
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Eddie, Fresh roast coffee, a good burr grinder, a swissgold filter, a =
Technivorm, drip brewing doesn't get any better than that!
PAUL

23) From: Eddie Dove
Paul,
Rwanada Migongo Bourbon, Mazzer Mini, Swissgold filter, Technivorm
Moccamaster CD, *sip*, yup, I concur.
Eddie
On 12/21/06, Paul Carder  wrote:
<Snip>

24) From: Les
Eddie,
Panama Gesha, Mazzer Major, Swissgold filter, Technivorm Moccamaster, YUM
YUM!, sip!  Your right it doesn't get much better!
Les
On 12/21/06, Eddie Dove  wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: Brian Kamnetz
I used to make coffee at work with a plastic funnel and paper filter.
Eventually I replaced my whirly blade grinder with a Zassenahaus 169DG, and
on the very first cup, using the same roast stash, I was amaged at the
improvement.
Brian
On 12/20/06, Julie H Tieszen  wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: raymanowen
Maybe I have some unconscious technique with blade mills, but my son has my
Capresso blade mill and the Bunn home drip maker. And my grandson.
The Guat HHT was no shabby cup, even though I was really just grinding to
avoid fines and had 2 or 3 boulders in the filter basket after it brewed.
The dust and fines anywhere in the basket will overextract, with no respect
for age, sex, religion, etc.
Since the boulders waste some coffee, I ground more than usual to compensate
for strength. I'm working out a good technique to recommend to Damian's
Montana grandparents when I send up some fresh roasted samples. Trade-off
for an incredible Salmon steak BBQ dinner in August!
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich


HomeRoast Digest