HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Storing your beans and searching the archives--->Freezing Greens (6 msgs / 439 lines)
1) From: Jeremy DeFranco
FWIW, I beleive Mike only freezes vac'd coffee that has already been
roasted. Greens remain vac packed, but not frozen. If you look in the
archives, you'll find some bean storage experiments conducted by Mike
McKoffee, that should explain why... I personally know, though, that from
having a somewhat limited background in food science from when I used to be
involved in the culinary arts feild, that meat, vegetables, etc., when
frozen, undergo changes in cell structure. Ice crystals form as the water
within the cell cytoplasm and cell matrix freezes. These ice-crystals then
begin to break down the cell membranes and/or cell walls (animals have cell
membranes, plants and plant products have membranes and cell walls), as well
as other matrix components that give the meat or vegetable its structural
integrity. This is why when you thaw out a steak, you see a big pool of
"juices"- this is simply water being released from the damaged cell
structure (the longer you freeze the more "juices" will be released). This
is also why frozen fruits and vegetables will never be as crisp as fresh
vegetables. For a great discussion on this, see the book, "On Food and
Cooking". Vaccum packing CAN reduce drying due to "freezer burn", but does
NOT stop the previously discussed process. There is absolutely no reason why
this would not apply to coffee beans (sure, they have less moisture, but
still a good 10-12%- it might happen to a lesser degree, but it still
happens). This is why I completely disagree with Terroir Coffee's reasoning
behind thier "green bean storage system", where they deep freeze (below -70
degrees farenhiet) vaccum packed beans. In my opinion, once you freeze a
fresh food product with a good amount of water within its matrix, it is
never the same; albeit time of freeze and type of food frozen will be
associated with different degrees of damage. One can imagine the
implications this would have on such a food as green coffee, where the
quality of the roasted product is directly proportional to its aromatic
profile. I would assume that at the very least, freezing greens for extended
storage would promote the release of coveted aromatics during the roasting
process and resting process, at a much greater rate than would be associated
with a non-frozen green bean. Roasted coffee has dramatically less moisture
(1-2%), and so this may be the reason roasted coffee can stand fairly well
vac'd and frozen, as was the result of testing by Sivetz, and Mike McKoffee.
Anyways, I hope I didn't open a flood-gate of rebuttles with this post, but
these are my thoughts on the matter...
---IIt was written:
I know miKe vac seals and freezes beans. he'll probably chime in on this one
soon.

2) From: Justin Schwarz
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<Snip>
first of all, I don't know anything for certain and I apologize for  
making an assumption.
I seem to remember something about this though, maybe this is where  
it came from:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 12:15 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Justin
houstini
If There is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
--Apple-Mail-2-866897912
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---IIt was written:
I know miKe vac seals and =
freezes beans. he'll probably chime in on this one =
soon.
 first of all, I don't know anything =
for certain and I apologize for making an =
assumption.  
I seem to remember something about this = though, maybe this is where it came from:
On Jun 26, = 2006, at 12:15 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
 So instead of comparing the Moki's Kona vac = frozen greensvs vac room temp greens just = before dinner with espresso over satiatedpalates, = we compared them AFTER dinner around 9pm! Oops, kind of gotforgotten with everything else going on... But we = did it anyway since thatwas my = "excuse" for last minute hosting PNWG IV;-)
Sorry Ed, we didn't do a cupping = per se', let alone blind 3-way. Planned tosimply = brew two 32oz Press Pots (both having SwissGold plungers) and = dosimply a blind A-B taste comparison. Well it = got interesting to say theleast. In my = caffeine wired after dinner consumed senses dulled lack ofsleep fatigued state while dumping the two boiling = water pre-heated Presscarafes I "clipped them" = against each other cracking one of them! But hey,it didn't break into separate pieces only cracked = and Moki's already groundso went for = it. Dumped the grinds in the two Press carafes, everyone got agood smell of each, then proceeded to fill to almost = full, carefully tapdown bloom, and finish = filling. I'd grabbed the closest timer handy, whichturned out to be my roasting timer which was in up = count mode, and hit startplanning to = plunge at 2:30 minutes. (I use a finer press grind and shorterinfusion than commonly used 4min press) But because = timer in up count modeneeded to watch it since no = alarm would go off at 2:30 minutes. And ofcourse = we be standing around chatting and I glanced down and saw 3:40 on = thetimer! I quickly carefully = plunged both press pots. So far the crackedcarafe = had been holding, but even with gentle plunge uh oh, coffee = leakingthrough the crack! To say the = least it was interesting pouring into thedouble = A-B row of cups. So now after this "controlled scientific brewing" = weproceeded to taste away, five of us daring = coffee fiends with a cup in eachhand. I = should also mentioned I blew the second roast last Sunday = night,getting distracted reading List = posts while roasting, taking the frozen 3 to5f slightly darker LFC rather than City+ target. = Should have roasted anotherbatch of the = non-frozen to LFC for the comparison but didn't. Overall nodefects noticed in the frozen cup, if anything the = frozen greens had betterKona acidity = than the room temp vac stored even though roasted slightlydarker. (Oh 5 month stored, not 6, January to June, = duh;-) And as Elainenoted the best cup was = after she dumped the two together! 
While a screwed up botched test = in a multitude of ways, we concluded it'ssafe to = say vac bag sealing and freezing greens at worst seems to do = nodamage, and very likely helps maintain acidity. = Which makes sense because asgreens get = old acidity is the first to go, long before any "bagginess"creeps = in. JustinhoustiniIf There is = anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.




Justin Schwarzhoustini
If there is anything worth = doing, it's worth doing right.

= --Apple-Mail-2-866897912--

3) From: Jeremy DeFranco
Justin,
     No need to apologize- I was just trying to make sure people on this
list just getting started roasting didn't rush to place their greens in the
freezer without reading up on it first. Figured I'd give my rationale for
why I wouldn't store my greens in the freezer, and clarify that from reading
Mike's posts, I don't beleive he stores greens in freezer, unless conducting
experiment, which you posted. FWIW, there are other posts in the archives
from different folks that state their experiments yeilded opposite results
from Mike's experiment. I hope this doesn't start a huge wave of posts on
this subject, because I know many people feel passionate about this subject,
and to be quite honest I know nothing of this subject with certainty,
either. Cheers!
---first of all, I don't know anything for certain and I apologize for
making an assumption.
I seem to remember something about this though, maybe this is where
it came from:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 12:15 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Justin
houstini
If There is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
Justin Schwarz
houstini

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
That was a single experiment with extremely flawed brewing methodology. I'd
draw no definitive conclusions from it, needs ample repeating before summary
conclusion can be drawn. Currently I've not gone to vac freezing greens for
my stash, just continued vac'd at room temp. (Who'd have room in the
freezers anyway:-)
 
miKe  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Justin Schwarz
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 10:51 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Storing your beans and searching the archives--->Freezing
Greens
---IIt was written:
I know miKe vac seals and freezes beans. he'll probably chime in on this one
soon.
first of all, I don't know anything for certain and I apologize for making
an assumption. 
I seem to remember something about this though, maybe this is where it came
from:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 12:15 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
So instead of comparing the Moki's Kona vac frozen greens
vs vac room temp greens just before dinner with espresso over satiated
palates, we compared them AFTER dinner around 9pm! Oops, kind of got
forgotten with everything else going on... But we did it anyway since that
was my "excuse" for last minute hosting PNWG IV;-)
Sorry Ed, we didn't do a cupping per se', let alone blind 3-way. Planned to
simply brew two 32oz Press Pots (both having SwissGold plungers) and do
simply a blind A-B taste comparison. Well it got interesting to say the
least. In my caffeine wired after dinner consumed senses dulled lack of
sleep fatigued state while dumping the two boiling water pre-heated Press
carafes I "clipped them" against each other cracking one of them! But hey,
it didn't break into separate pieces only cracked and Moki's already ground
so went for it. Dumped the grinds in the two Press carafes, everyone got a
good smell of each, then proceeded to fill to almost full, carefully tap
down bloom, and finish filling. I'd grabbed the closest timer handy, which
turned out to be my roasting timer which was in up count mode, and hit start
planning to plunge at 2:30 minutes. (I use a finer press grind and shorter
infusion than commonly used 4min press) But because timer in up count mode
needed to watch it since no alarm would go off at 2:30 minutes. And of
course we be standing around chatting and I glanced down and saw 3:40 on the
timer! I quickly carefully plunged both press pots. So far the cracked
carafe had been holding, but even with gentle plunge uh oh, coffee leaking
through the crack! To say the least it was interesting pouring into the
double A-B row of cups. So now after this "controlled scientific brewing" we
proceeded to taste away, five of us daring coffee fiends with a cup in each
hand. I should also mentioned I blew the second roast last Sunday night,
getting distracted reading List posts while roasting, taking the frozen 3 to
5f slightly darker LFC rather than City+ target. Should have roasted another
batch of the non-frozen to LFC for the comparison but didn't. Overall no
defects noticed in the frozen cup, if anything the frozen greens had better
Kona acidity than the room temp vac stored even though roasted slightly
darker. (Oh 5 month stored, not 6, January to June, duh;-) And as Elaine
noted the best cup was after she dumped the two together! 
While a screwed up botched test in a multitude of ways, we concluded it's
safe to say vac bag sealing and freezing greens at worst seems to do no
damage, and very likely helps maintain acidity. Which makes sense because as
greens get old acidity is the first to go, long before any "bagginess"
creeps in.
Justin
houstini
If There is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.

5) From: Justin Schwarz
--Apple-Mail-3-916962660
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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sorry, my bad.  it looks like my mailbox has a better memory than me.
I would tend to agree that greens need to be kept from extreme  
temperatures, no matter how they are stored.
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
--Apple-Mail-3-916962660
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
sorry, my bad.  it looks like =
my mailbox has a better memory than me.

I would tend to agree that = greens need to be kept from extreme temperatures, no matter how they are = stored. Justin = Schwarzhoustini
If there is anything worth = doing, it's worth doing right.

= --Apple-Mail-3-916962660--

6) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Wow now there is a good answer!!!!!!!!! I LIKE IT!
yet another expert in a related field!
You guys really do ROCK!!!!!
 
Dennis 
AKA 
FC1(SW) Dennis W. True 
Safety Dept 
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) 
FPO AE 09532-2830 
HG/DB and Z&D roasting in the Southern Hemisphere 
 "On station and on point 117 and counting down..." 
	FWIW, I beleive Mike only freezes vac'd coffee that has already
been roasted. Greens remain vac packed, but not frozen. If you look in
the archives, you'll find some bean storage experiments conducted by
Mike McKoffee, that should explain why... I personally know, though,
that from having a somewhat limited background in food science from when
I used to be involved in the culinary arts feild, that meat, vegetables,
etc., when frozen, undergo changes in cell structure. Ice crystals form
as the water within the cell cytoplasm and cell matrix freezes. These
ice-crystals then begin to break down the cell membranes and/or cell
walls (animals have cell membranes, plants and plant products have
membranes and cell walls), as well as other matrix components that give
the meat or vegetable its structural integrity. This is why when you
thaw out a steak, you see a big pool of "juices"- this is simply water
being released from the damaged cell structure (the longer you freeze
the more "juices" will be released). This is also why frozen fruits and
vegetables will never be as crisp as fresh vegetables. For a great
discussion on this, see the book, "On Food and Cooking". Vaccum packing
CAN reduce drying due to "freezer burn", but does NOT stop the
previously discussed process. There is absolutely no reason why this
would not apply to coffee beans (sure, they have less moisture, but
still a good 10-12%- it might happen to a lesser degree, but it still
happens). This is why I completely disagree with Terroir Coffee's
reasoning behind thier "green bean storage system", where they deep
freeze (below -70 degrees farenhiet) vaccum packed beans. In my opinion,
once you freeze a fresh food product with a good amount of water within
its matrix, it is never the same; albeit time of freeze and type of food
frozen will be associated with different degrees of damage. One can
imagine the implications this would have on such a food as green coffee,
where the quality of the roasted product is directly proportional to its
aromatic profile. I would assume that at the very least, freezing greens
for extended storage would promote the release of coveted aromatics
during the roasting process and resting process, at a much greater rate
than would be associated with a non-frozen green bean. Roasted coffee
has dramatically less moisture (1-2%), and so this may be the reason
roasted coffee can stand fairly well vac'd and frozen, as was the result
of testing by Sivetz, and Mike McKoffee. Anyways, I hope I didn't open a
flood-gate of rebuttles with this post, but these are my thoughts on the
matter... 
	
	---IIt was written:
	I know miKe vac seals and freezes beans. he'll probably chime in
on this one soon.
	


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