HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Cold weather roasting/LP tank pressure (23 msgs / 977 lines)
1) From: Justin Schwarz
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I was roasting here in Salem, OR thermometer read 31ºf outside this  =
afternoon.  It took a little extra time  to preheat to 480ºf (15  
minutes).  I loaded the drum and 9 minutes into the roast the BBQ  
still hadn't gone above 350ºf (grill temp, not bean mass temp).  I  
noticed the flame was pretty low even at full heat, gave the tank a  
quick shake, seemed to be at least half a tank in there.  I wondered  
if the accumulating frost on the outside of my tank affected gas  
pressure, so I swapped out with my backup and fired back up, the  
flame was more than twice the output as the other tank.  This  
happened once before when doing B2B roasts in 37ºf ambient temp.  The  =
grill has 4 burners and is rated at 45k BTU output so should be able  
to get up to temp no problem.
So, I guess my question is this,  Does anyone here have any tips or  
tricks for preventing this pressure drop in cold weather?  And, does  
anyone else have this problem in the cold?
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
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I was roasting here in Salem, OR =
thermometer read 31ºf outside this afternoon.  It took a little =
extra time  to preheat to 480ºf (15 minutes).  I loaded the drum =
and 9 minutes into the roast the BBQ still hadn't gone above 350ºf =
(grill temp, not bean mass temp).  I noticed the flame was pretty low =
even at full heat, gave the tank a quick shake, seemed to be at least =
half a tank in there.  I wondered if the accumulating frost on the =
outside of my tank affected gas pressure, so I swapped out with my =
backup and fired back up, the flame was more than twice the output as =
the other tank.  This happened once before when doing B2B roasts in =
37ºf ambient temp.  The grill has 4 burners and is rated at 45k BTU =
output so should be able to get up to temp no problem.
So, I guess my question is = this,  Does anyone here have any tips or tricks for preventing this = pressure drop in cold weather?  And, does anyone else have this = problem in the cold?
Justin = SchwarzhoustiniIf = there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.

= = --Apple-Mail-1--675356861--

2) From: Les
I have had that problem too.   I always have a full tank when it is cold.
 I live in Roseburg, and roasted in 22 degrees yesterday.  It was 6 degrees
at our house early this morning.
Le
On 1/13/07, Justin Schwarz  wrote:
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3) From: Vicki Smith
I don't roast in a BBQ, but, FWIW (and that might not be much), as a 
cold weather kinda gal, one of the reason we switched from a propane 
tank grill to a natural gas one was that we can BBQ in much colder 
weather. I suppose the gas in the underground lines is warmer than the 
propane in the tanks. We BBQ when it is below freezing fairly often.
vicki
Les wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: John F Coffey
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Hmmm, I've noticed that problem.  But I didn't notice it the other  
day when I had the grill running and it was 25 degrees outside.   
Worked just fine.   Never been able to figure out why it does it  
sometimes and other times it does not do it.  By the by the tank ran  
out and had to change it yesterday so that tank must have been low to  =
begin with.
--John
On Jan 13, 2007, at 10:58 PM, Justin Schwarz wrote:
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<Snip>
--------------
   John F. Coffey
   Email - john
   P.O. Box 524			
   Blaine, WA  98231
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Hmmm, I've noticed that =
problem.  But I didn't notice it the other day when I had the grill =
running and it was 25 degrees outside.  Worked just fine.   Never =
been able to figure out why it does it sometimes and other times it does =
not do it.  By the by the tank ran out and had to change it yesterday =
so that tank must have been low to begin with.
--John On Jan 13, 2007, at 10:58 PM, Justin Schwarz wrote:
I was = roasting here in Salem, OR thermometer read 31ºf outside this = afternoon.  It took a little extra time  to preheat to 480ºf (15 = minutes).  I loaded the drum and 9 minutes into the roast the BBQ = still hadn't gone above 350ºf (grill temp, not bean mass temp).  I = noticed the flame was pretty low even at full heat, gave the tank a = quick shake, seemed to be at least half a tank in there.  I wondered = if the accumulating frost on the outside of my tank affected gas = pressure, so I swapped out with my backup and fired back up, the flame = was more than twice the output as the other tank.  This happened = once before when doing B2B roasts in 37ºf ambient temp.  The grill = has 4 burners and is rated at 45k BTU output so should be able to get up = to temp no problem.
So, I guess my question is = this,  Does anyone here have any tips or tricks for preventing this = pressure drop in cold weather?  And, does anyone else have this = problem in the cold?
Justin = SchwarzhoustiniIf = there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.

= --------------  John F. = Coffey  Email - john  P.O. Box 524 =   Blaine, WA  98231


= = --Apple-Mail-1--673350542--

5) From: Aaron
It's not so much the gas being cold because of the ambient temperature, 
ie it's 15 outside so the gas is 15, but it gets much colder as it 
expands (the tank is really filled with liquid which turns to gas as you 
suck it off)..  the frost you see on the tank is probably happening at 
the 'event horizon' (sorry, into stupid words this morning)... the level 
where the liquid meets the gas pretty much.   In the dynamics, it's not 
that the gas turns cold when the gas vaporizes but, it needs the heat to 
do so, so it gets that heat from the surrounding gas  and there isn't 
much heat in there, because of the ambient temp, so it gets it from the 
tank walls and outside 'heat', and this makes it really cold and the 
frost will form where this event is taking place at..   Kind of the same 
principle of taking ice water at  32 degrees F... and throwing salt into 
it, where salt water freezes at what is it 16 F or whatever... some of 
that ice needs to melt since it's not 16F but 32F, so a LOT of heat is 
going to go into that reaction, hence the overall temp drop to like 20 
below zero if you do it right... home made ice cream makers will know 
what i am talking about..... anyways... off on a tangent here....
Keep the tank inside the house overnight, when you want to roast bring 
it outside, hook it up and then roast might work a bit better. (it is 
not adviseable to store propane tanks inside the house for prolonged 
periods of time in case one were to leak)  Or just shake it more often, 
as the agitation moves the liquid around, and the liquid gets in contact 
with the sides of the tank (more surface area) and pulls the heat from 
there to vaporize and keep the pressure up.
The reason the natural gas seems to work better is that it's already a 
gas, and because of that the pressure is constant, where the propane, 
you have to turn it to a gas, and the above mentioned problems start to 
happen... essentially natural gas and propane are pretty much the same 
thing.
Or, you could just put the gas tank IN your barbecue so the flame warms 
it and keep it at 350 to 425 degrees as well... If you do use this 
method though, can you please add me as a beneficiary to your life 
insurance policy... Ill take your coffee roasting equipment since it WAS 
my idea :)
Aaron

6) From: Charles
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I have noticed this problem many times while I was living in the =
Caribbean
(where the temp ranged from 75 to 85).  Sometimes just detaching and
reattaching the hose would clear it up.  Other times, switching to a new
tank was required.
 
Now that I live in Tennessee, I still have exactly the same problem (in =
both
winter and summer).  So I am not sure it is only related to cold
temperatures.  At any rate, I have never resolved the issue.
 
Charles  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of John F =
Coffey
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 1:32 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Cold weather roasting/LP tank pressure
 
Hmmm, I've noticed that problem.  But I didn't notice it the other day =
when
I had the grill running and it was 25 degrees outside.  Worked just =
fine.
Never been able to figure out why it does it sometimes and other times =
it
does not do it.  By the by the tank ran out and had to change it =
yesterday
so that tank must have been low to begin with.
 
--John
 
On Jan 13, 2007, at 10:58 PM, Justin Schwarz wrote:
I was roasting here in Salem, OR thermometer read 31ºf outside this
afternoon.  It took a little extra time  to preheat to 480ºf (15 =
minutes).
I loaded the drum and 9 minutes into the roast the BBQ still hadn't gone
above 350ºf (grill temp, not bean mass temp).  I noticed the flame was
pretty low even at full heat, gave the tank a quick shake, seemed to be =
at
least half a tank in there.  I wondered if the accumulating frost on the
outside of my tank affected gas pressure, so I swapped out with my =
backup
and fired back up, the flame was more than twice the output as the other
tank.  This happened once before when doing B2B roasts in 37ºf ambient =
temp.
The grill has 4 burners and is rated at 45k BTU output so should be able =
to
get up to temp no problem.
 
So, I guess my question is this,  Does anyone here have any tips or =
tricks
for preventing this pressure drop in cold weather?  And, does anyone =
else
have this problem in the cold?
 
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
 
 
 
--------------
  John F. Coffey
  Email - john
  P.O. Box 524                                       
  Blaine, WA  98231
 
 
 

7) From: James
That is very common when using propane at relatively low temperature. A ful=
l tank will help, but even then you will still be battling the ambient temp=
erature. A possible solution is to wrap the propane tank with an electric h=
eating pad set on very low or else at least store the propane tank indoors =
until ready to roast.
James in Southern CA.
----- Original Messag=
e ----
From: Justin Schwarz 
To: homeroast=
eetmarias.com
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:58:07 PM
Subject: +Co=
ld weather roasting/LP tank pressure
I was roasting here in Salem, OR =
thermometer read 31ºf outside this afternoon.  It took a little extra tim=
e  to preheat to 480ºf (15 minutes).  I loaded the drum and 9 minutes int=
o the roast the BBQ still hadn't gone above 350ºf (grill temp, not bean m=
ass temp).  I noticed the flame was pretty low even at full heat, gave the =
tank a quick shake, seemed to be at least half a tank in there.  I wondered=
 if the accumulating frost on the outside of my tank affected gas pressure,=
 so I swapped out with my backup and fired back up, the flame was more than=
 twice the output as the other tank.  This happened once before when doing =
B2B roasts in 37ºf ambient temp.  The grill has 4 burners and is rated at=
 45k BTU output so should be able to get up to temp no problem.
So, I =
guess my question is this,  Does anyone here have any tips or tricks for pr=
eventing this pressure drop in cold weather?  And, does anyone else have th=
is problem in the cold?
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If th=
ere is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
 
==
Need a quick answer? Get one in min=
utes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com

8) From: Eddie Dove
Can't one just preheat the tank with a torch then roast?  I used a torch
today ... it seemed to heat things up very well.
Fired up,
Eddie
-- 
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/14/07, James  wrote:">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/14/07, James  wrote:
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<Snip>

9) From: Brett Mason
You could put the tank in a fire, and it will stay warm for the rest of you=
r
life...
On 1/14/07, James  wrote:
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ank
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YWcx>
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

10) From: James
Actually, you and your neighbors will be warm for the rest of your lives!!!=
 The only thing I found amusing from that whole Columbine thing was t=
hat everybody seemed to miss the point that if those guys had managed to se=
t the propane tanks off (their original plan) all the anti-gun crowd would =
have completely forgotten their "just take the guns away" pablum.
  
Ja=
mes in Southern CA.
----- Original Message ----
From: Brett Mason 
To: homeroast
Sent: Sunday, J=
anuary 14, 2007 7:57:43 PM
Subject: Re: +Cold weather roasting/LP tank pr=
essure
You could put the tank in a fire, and it will stay warm for the=
 rest of your life...
On 1/14/07, James  wrote:=
That is very common when using propane at relatively low temperature. A =
full tank will help, but even then you will still be battling the ambient t=
emperature. A possible solution is to wrap the propane tank with an electri=
c heating pad set on very low or else at least store the propane tank indoo=
rs until ready to roast.
James in Southern CA.
----- Original =
Message ----
From: Justin Schwarz <
houstini>
To: homeroast=
@lists.sweetmarias.com
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:58:07 PM
=
Subject: +Cold weather roasting/LP tank pressure
I was roasting here i=
n Salem, OR thermometer read 31ºf outside this
 afternoon.  It took a l=
ittle extra time  to preheat to 480ºf (15 minutes).  I loaded the drum an=
d 9 minutes into the roast the BBQ still hadn't gone above 350ºf (grill t=
emp, not bean mass temp).  I noticed the flame was pretty low even at full =
heat, gave the tank a quick shake, seemed to be at least half a tank in the=
re.  I wondered if the accumulating frost on the outside of my tank affecte=
d gas pressure, so I swapped out with my backup and fired back up, the flam=
e was more than twice the output as the other tank.  This happened once bef=
ore when doing B2B roasts in 37ºf ambient temp.  The grill has 4 burners =
and is rated at 45k BTU output so should be able to get up to temp no probl=
em.
So, I guess my question is this,  Does anyone here have any tip=
s or tricks for preventing this pressure drop in cold weather?  And, does a=
nyone else have this problem in the
 cold?
Justin Schwarz
ho=
ustini
If there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right=
.
 
Need a quick answer? G=
et one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on
 Yahoo! Answ=
ers
.
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freese=rvers.com=
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flic=
k in no time 
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.http://to=ols.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

11) From: James
That'll fire you up way past CharBucks stage. Beyond Italian Roast!!!
 =
James in Southern CA.
----- Original Message ----
From: Eddie Dov=
e 
To: homeroast=
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:56:16 PM
Subject: Re: +Cold weather r=
oasting/LP tank pressure
Can't one just preheat the tank with a torch =
then roast?  I used a torch today ... it seemed to heat things up very well=
.
Fired up,
Eddie
-- 
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profil=
es for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sw=
eet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/=
On 1/14/07, James  wrote:
That is very commo=
n when using propane at relatively low temperature. A full tank will help, =
but even then you will still be battling the ambient temperature. A possibl=
e solution is to wrap the propane tank with an electric heating pad set on =
very low or else at least store the propane tank indoors until ready to roa=
st.
James in Southern CA.
----- Original Message ----
From: =
Justin Schwarz <
houstini>
To: homeroast=
m
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:58:07 PM
Subject: +Cold weathe=
r roasting/LP tank pressure
I was roasting here in Salem, OR thermomet=
er read 31ºf outside this
 afternoon.  It took a little extra time  to =
preheat to 480ºf (15 minutes).  I loaded the drum and 9 minutes into the =
roast the BBQ still hadn't gone above 350ºf (grill temp, not bean mass te=
mp).  I noticed the flame was pretty low even at full heat, gave the tank a=
 quick shake, seemed to be at least half a tank in there.  I wondered if th=
e accumulating frost on the outside of my tank affected gas pressure, so I =
swapped out with my backup and fired back up, the flame was more than twice=
 the output as the other tank.  This happened once before when doing B2B ro=
asts in 37ºf ambient temp.  The grill has 4 burners and is rated at 45k B=
TU output so should be able to get up to temp no problem.
So, I gue=
ss my question is this,  Does anyone here have any tips or tricks for preve=
nting this pressure drop in cold weather?  And, does anyone else have this =
problem in the
 cold?
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If=
 there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
 
=
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes fr=
om people who know. Ask your question on
 Yahoo! Answers
.
==
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 mi=
llion songs.http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited

12) From: Brett Mason
There wasn't much amusing in Columbine....
On 1/14/07, James  wrote:
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the
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nt
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yone
<Snip>
wMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx>
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

13) From: Eddie Dove
ROFLMBO!
On 1/15/07, True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/

14) From: Justin Schwarz
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There seem to be a lot more people having this problem than just  
myself, which is good news for us all.  I will try keeping the tanks  
inside while not in use.  An electric blanket seems like a good idea  
too or a small electric heater in the vicinity which would have the  
added benefit of keeping me warm too.
On Jan 14, 2007, at 7:56 PM, Eddie Dove wrote:
<Snip>
Seriously?  I'm scared. I guess I'll put this suggestion with the  
others that recommended direct contact with flame.
On Jan 14, 2007, at 7:57 PM, Brett Mason wrote:
<Snip>
Now that's what I call an exothermic reaction!
Thanks everyone,
Justin Schwarz
houstini
If there is anything worth doing, it's worth doing right.
--Apple-Mail-1--586319929
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
There seem to be a =
lot more people having this problem than just myself, which is good news =
for us all.  I will try keeping the tanks inside while not in use.  =
An electric blanket seems like a good idea too or a small electric =
heater in the vicinity which would have the added benefit of keeping me =
warm too.  
 Can't one just preheat the tank =
with a torch then roast?  I used a torch today ... it seemed to heat =
things up very well.
Seriously?  I'm scared. I = guess I'll put this suggestion with the others that recommended direct= contact with flame. On Jan 14, 2007, at 7:57 = PM, Brett Mason wrote:You could put the = tank in a fire, and it will stay warm for the rest of your = life...
Now that's what I call an = exothermic reaction!


Thanks = everyone, 
Justin Schwarzhoustini
If there is anything worth = doing, it's worth doing right.

= --Apple-Mail-1--586319929--

15) From: Eddie Dove
Can't one just preheat the tank with a torch then roast?  I used a torch
today ... it seemed to heat things up very well.
Seriously?  I'm scared. I guess I'll put this suggestion with the others
that recommended direct contact with flame.
That would be wise ....
Eddie
-- 
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/15/07, Justin Schwarz  wrote:">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/15/07, Justin Schwarz  wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
TO Spanish and Beyond!!!!  Keeping *$ in business one stash at a
time....
	That'll fire you up way past CharBucks stage. Beyond Italian
Roast!!!
	 
	James in Southern CA.
	
	

17) From: Justin Marquez
On 1/14/07, Justin Schwarz  wrote:
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s).
<Snip>
t
<Snip>
temp.
<Snip>
 to
<Snip>
s
<Snip>
The pressure drop problem is a result of the propane in the tank not
vaporizing fast enough to keep up with the load required by the
burners.
Commercial Propane vaporizes at about -15 to -20 Deg F (depends on how
far off from pure proane it is)  at atmospheric pressure. The pressure
inside your tank gets lower and lower as the ambient temperature gets
lower.  There is also less temperature difference from the temp
outside the tank to allow heat to flow in thru the tank walls and
vaporize the propane liquid.  When it gets down to -20, propane
wouldn't vaporize at all. (Butane is not used much anymore for heating
because it ceases to boil out at about  + 40 Deg F.)
DON'T use anything to heat the tank that has open flame or sparks or
can get warmer than about 100 Deg F.  An electric space heater is
probably not a great idea, since the thermostat on it may arc when
opening.
The 100 deg F limit is suggested because the tanks have a pressure
relief valve which opens when the pressure in the tank rises too high.
(At 100 Deg F, the pressure in the tank would be close to 200 psi.)
Since 100 Deg F ambient temperatures are OK, then a 100 deg F limit on
the heat source seems prudent. The heat blanket idea is probably OK
if:
      - It has no thermostat
      - Won't get hotter than 100 Deg F
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)

18) From: TERRY TITSWORTH
Possible suggestion from what we use in the Refrigeration industry, Set the
tank in a washtub or large container and bath it in warm water. Some of our
refrigerants get pretty cold, some of them boil at below freezing. When
adding refrigerant to a system they stall because the temps in the tanks ar=
e
too low, usually setting a tank in warm water gets the flow going again.
Terryt
On 1/15/07, Justin Marquez  wrote:
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
s
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
r
<Snip>
t
<Snip>
-- 
Start HOT and work your way Down...
Peppers AND Coffee.
[|:{O....[|:{U...
(I'm the tall guy in the middle)

19) From: TERRY TITSWORTH
Sorry that should have read...Below ZERO.....
On 1/15/07, TERRY TITSWORTH  wrote:
<Snip>
of
<Snip>
en
<Snip>
are
<Snip>
was
<Snip>
ent
<Snip>
-- 
Start HOT and work your way Down...
Peppers AND Coffee.
[|:{O....[|:{U...
(I'm the tall guy in the middle)

20) From: Aaron
Id have to try it but.  a 5 gal bucket might work,.. but you can get 
wider pails at brew stores, we use them to ferment in,  a propane tank 
would fit perfectly into that.  Filled with water and it should keep you 
going for a bit.....  Again though, give the tank a good sloshing around 
too will also help.
One note though, do NOT tip the tank upside down to dispense the 
contents... this can cause a very dangerous situation where you are 
spurting liquid propane out the burner.  I mention this so if one does 
shake it a bit they don't get carried away and turn it sideways or whatever.
aaron

21) From: TERRY TITSWORTH
Agreed, Right side up you get vapor...Upside down you get Liquid...Not
useful in barbecuing..
On 1/15/07, Aaron  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Start HOT and work your way Down...
Peppers AND Coffee.
[|:{O....[|:{U...
(I'm the tall guy in the middle)

22) From: Brett Mason
Dennis - it's -1.6 right now, and -13 with wind chill.  This isn't an
issue.  Clearing the driveway is an issue.  I am prepping with some more of
the Brazil flatbean, FC, brewed in my Melitta Clarity.
I am watching closely so it doesn't do yesterday's BLOOM trick and cover th=
e
counter with hot brown grinds.  Did I say it is fresh roasted hot brown
grinds?  Makes a difference in flavof and aroma as it covers the papers on
your desk....
So I shut the Clarity off halfway through the drip, let the bloom settle
down, and then we continue...  Sometimes the benefits and pleasures become
the antagonist...  OK almost done with the brew - which means I take a cup
out front to sip in between clearing sections of the driveway.
Hurry home Dennis!
Brett
On 1/16/07, True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)  wrote:
<Snip>
e
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Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

23) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
GEEZ Guys! the weather was once again mid 90's again today.... if you =
are having roasting problems try the equator.... not having issues here =
and I am roasting in a very cold space... my 55 deg hide out! I bribe =
them to let me roast. 
HEHE just kidding all although I do miss having at least one snowfall... =
(you like the first by the 10th you get really tired.. speaking of =
Groton CT when I was stationed there)
 
in all seriousness roasting in 55 vice 90 has added a few challenges to =
my methods... I have a piece of cardboard I put inbetween the AC unit =
and the roaster to help the ambient temp at least by a few degrees. now =
I am roasting at 22-25 min instead of 18-20 min like I do in 90 degree =
heat...
 
Dennis 
AKA 
FC1(SW) Dennis W. True 
Safety Dept 
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) 
FPO AE 09532-2830 
HG/DB and Z&D roasting in the southern hemisphere 
 "On station and on point 107  and counting down..."


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