HomeRoast Digest


Topic: 1st crack and city roast (35 msgs / 1180 lines)
1) From: Ed Van Herik
I'm confused about the relationship, if any, between degrees of roast and h=
ow they relate to first and second crack. For example, if I want to roast t=
o full city plus, does that equate to, say, half way through second crack?=
 
Regards,
Ed Van Herik
evanherik
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help.http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&local=e=en-US&source=wlmemailtaglinenov06=

2) From: stereoplegic
i myself am still not 100% sure about this: in terms of FC/FC+, do the 
"few snaps into 2nd" or "15-20 seconds into 2nd", etc. include 2nd crack 
outliers? lately i've gotten a lot of "C+/FC" roasts (thought i heard a 
few 2nd outliers), not being exactly sure what to call them, though they 
look like tom's C+ pic in the degree of roast pictorial (finely etched 
pattern, etc).
evanherik wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: miKe mcKoffee
Here's a few readings from SM website that may help:http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.htmlKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee">http://www.sweetmarias.com/instruct.basic.htmlhttp://www.sweetmarias.com/tasteterms.html#roastnameshttp://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.htmlKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
<Snip>

4) From: Eddie Dove
Start with this, reading the notes and not so much relying on the pictures.http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.htmlmiKe provided the link earlier, but is is a great reference to have on-hand
while roasting.  I can't say that I have ever studied the pictures.
Eddie
-- 
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/17/07, stereoplegic  wrote:">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/17/07, stereoplegic  wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Edward Bourgeois
Eddie   Can your GC match the times/temps that Tom has on the link you
mentioned?http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.htmlMy roasts match until 401
then he leaves me in the dust. He gets to 426 in 1:20.min
 I would need a major heat boost to cruise through first that fast.
thanks, Ed

6) From: Eddie Dove
Ed,
I think that is based on roasting in Tom's professional Probat roaster.  The
times and temps aren't too far off, but I don't think there is any way I can
match the control that Tom has with the Probat.  Sometimes, with some beans,
1st crack is that concentrated and other times it is not ... but, I'm still
learning.
Eddie
-- 
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/17/07, Edward Bourgeois  wrote:">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/17/07, Edward Bourgeois  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
i thought i shouldnt try to wait that long till 1st crack either, and would
normally let it hit at 7mins, but ive been trying to match that profile, and
stretching to 9-10mins, and the coffee seems to have more depth of flavor
this way.  
From: Eddie Dove [mailto:southcoastcoffeeroaster] 
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:02 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +1st crack and city roast
Ed,
I think that is based on roasting in Tom's professional Probat roaster.  The
times and temps aren't too far off, but I don't think there is any way I can
match the control that Tom has with the Probat.  Sometimes, with some beans,
1st crack is that concentrated and other times it is not ... but, I'm still
learning. 
Eddie
-- 
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archives http://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
On 1/17/07, Edward Bourgeois  wrote: 
Eddie   Can your GC match the times/temps that Tom has on the link you
mentioned?  
  http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.htmlMy roasts match until 401 
then he leaves me in the dust. He gets to 426 in 1:20.min
 I would need a major heat boost to cruise through first that fast.
thanks, Ed

8) From: Ken Mary
I checked Tom's Probat profile and compared with my drum. I did not realize
how fast the Probat roasted, but it does compare to some of my very fast
preheated drum roasts. The crack temperatures are a little high due to the
very fast ramp going into first. The ramp into first is 12 to 15C per
minute, this is equal or greater than my fastest (Brazil) 12C per minute.
The danger of such fast ramps is that the usual homebuilt drum has no
provision for air injection to control the approach to second. However, air
roasters should be able to follow Tom's profile easily. But there is a
danger that the slightly over one minute between cracks is too short for
most people to decide when to stop for city or city+ level. I prefer my more
sedate 5 to 8C per minute, and the better flavors of slower roasts.
--
----------
<Snip>
<Snip>
still learning.
<Snip>

9) From: Justin Marquez
On 1/17/07, Ed Van Herik  wrote:
<Snip>
Here's how I use the terms (YMMV):
Stopped before end of First Crack = "Cinnamon"
End of First Crack = "CITY" (no oil will show)
In the "gap" just before 2nd Crack = "CITY +" (no oil will show)
One of two second cracks = "FULL CITY" (might eventually show trace of oil)
A few seconds into second crack = "FULL CITY +"  (probably show some
oil in a few of days)
Well Into 2nd crack = "Oops! The roast got away from me! This looks
like Vienna Roast!" (has noticeable oil immediately)
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)

10) From: Scott Marquardt
On 1/18/07, Justin Marquez  wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
I've always had a problem with this characterization, and it isn't
just yours. Almost universal among homeroasters seems to be a notion
that City is "just after first crack" and that Full City is "just at
the beginning of second."
My problem with that is darned easy to explain. It leaves City + to
cover anywhere between 20 and 40 degrees of temperature change of the
bean!
Can someone who hews closely to the above rubric (c'mon, I know it's
almost all of ye!) please justify that kind of range for a City + ?
Thank you.
;-)
- S

11) From: Scott Marquardt
Let me add this, quickly: this range can take up 4 minutes in a roast
for me, depending on how I ramp the heat. That leaves me with a LOT of
room for maneuvre, able to terminate anywhere between the end of first
and beginning of second. My well-embedded TC generally gets me into
second crack between 440 and 445; I consider a City to be drinkable
for most roasts at 415 or so (first crack temps vary widely and their
duration --- the span of temps 1st covers -- varies a lot too).
Furthermore, under such a rubric it would do no good at all for me to
tell someone "roast it to City + and it's perfect," in some cases.
Example: Last year I discovered that a Kenya that's favored by friends
and customers, has a strange notch. Anywhere between 420 and 430 it's
fine (the low end of that is its sweet spot). Ridiculously, I wasted
the bean at darker roasts for a while -- 445 or so (very dense, it
went there well but lost the great aromatics). But the bean had a
"notch" between 430 and 440 where it would be harsh beyond belief.
You'd be left to conclude that it's just lousy coffee.
To this day I can reproduce this for anyone who's curious. Light
roast, awesome. Dark roast, good. In between -- evil.
But note -- the sweet spot and the harsh range would ALL be "City +"
under the rubric I'm challenging. So what am I supposed to tell
someone about the bean? "It's perfect at a light City+, but avoid the
City+ to dark City+ range!" That's insane. Especially if we're calling
"Full City" a point (a couple cracks), rather than a range.
I'm not meaning to pick on you with this, Justin -- your entry just
happened to be the one I chose to use as a springboard to a mild rant.
  ;-)
- Scott
On 1/18/07, Scott Marquardt  wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: Jeff Oien
Scott Marquardt wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
That's what City++ and FC- are for. :) I really do use those terms
unofficially. Or it was a good City+ or barely a FC. In an RK drum
it's hard to tell exactly where temp-wise. If I go a minute after
first ends and temp appears to remain steady (although the bean
temp is probably rising) I call it a City+. Two minutes after first
with apparently steady temp must be getting near or at FC. Pretty much
guessing though without a probe in the beans.
JeffO

13) From: miKe mcKoffee
(Reply posted below for continuity)
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
Timings, temps and cracks oh my! All subject to countless vagaries and
variations of beans and roast methods and profiles. 
One thing I don't see an up to 40f bean temp swing from City to Full City
reported about any roast any bean. I.e. 40f from end of 1st to start of 2nd.
More like 20 to up to maybe 30f depending on ramp rate and bean. 
Regardless indeed comparing by "roast name" is a challenge. Personally most
of my roasts see about a 20 to 25f range end of 1st to start of 2nd. Within
that range I use the term City+ (about 5 to 10f beyond end 1st around my 430
to 435f bean temp), Light Full City (about 10 to 15f beyond end of 1st
around my 435f to 440f bean temp), Full City (about 15 to 20f beyond end of
1st, 2nd crack imminent but not quite there), FC+ (about 20 to 25f beyond
end of 1st, 2nd crack just beginning). All temps and daffynitions modulated
by bean smell and surface texture, and to a lesser extent color. And all
vary within temp ranges by bean type, and same bean will also vary by
profile. Seems a complicated, confusing and imprecise conundrum discussing
roast levels via the Net! And indeed the "bean" is extemely complicated and
complex. Yet really only as complicated and complex as you choose to
explore.
Turn 'em brown so they smell good, rest 'em grind 'em and brew 'em. Taste
good? Do it again. Do it different and see how it tastes. Taste better or
different. Do it again or not! Just have fun and play with it.
Or go extreme and take a roast profile of your espresso blend that has been
hailed by Les as one of his Top 5 shots of all 2006, hailed by another home
roaster on the dark side as his best straight shot of his life and be
satisfied OR begin the process to tweak the roast profile to gain a slightly
better balance between sweet and acidity definition (vividness) in the shot.
I've come to believe that while excellent it could maybe be better! The low
bass, body and creamy mouthfeel are spot on, mid range sings wonderfully,
but maybe slightly lacking acidity definition versus sweetness on the high
end and so my espresso blend roast profile tweaking has again begun.
Extremist? Definitely.
It's all good!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.

14) From: Justin Marquez
On 1/18/07, Scott Marquardt  wrote:
<Snip>
As I said... "YMMV".
No offense taken.  I understand the difficulty of characterizing what
happens between end-of-1st and start-of-2nd. I use HG/DB and RK Drum,
so the bean temp measurements are difficult for me. (Well... I guess I
*could* use the multimeter and probe for the HG/DB, just been too lazy
to set it up.)
The cues I use - snap sounds, smoke quan. and odor, temp (for the BBQ
grill) - are how I try to make repeatable roast levels.
MOST of the time I am happy with the results.  "Sometimes, zee BULL
wins..." (That's when the roast becomes giveaway stuff to *$ patrons.
As an aside, a friend of mine refers to *$ as "FourBucks".)
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)

15) From: Scott Marquardt
On 1/18/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
Gmail has made a top-poster out of me. I feel so dirty.    ;-)
<Snip>
2nd.
<Snip>
That's with an in-bean-mass temperature probe?
Bear in mind the definitions I'm addressing. If "City" means "that last
darned bean just popped", and if "Full City" means "that first darned bean
just snapped," then . . . well, let's go by Tom's numbers:
*1st crack finishes 10:40 - 426 f*
My dilemma in considering this is that first crack does NOT always end at
426. Not at all. It frequently ends at 410 or so. And that's bean temp. I
doubt anyone would challenge that by wondering whether I'm getting air
temps, because there's not enough exotherm going on (IMO) to suggest the
possibility that the air is, at that point, cooling the bean. This holds
true in my drum (measuring bean mass) as well as the popper (they're
remarkably close, and indeed use the same measurement hardware). Now when I
terminate a roast at 415, shortly after first crack ends (let us say), on
the Rubric I'm challenging that would be a "City" roast and I tend to agree.
But it's not 426, and I suppose most folks would shrug and figure "right,
but it's just after first crack so 'City' is an appropriate way of thinking
of it'."
But then we get to this:
*Full City roast 11:30 - 444 f*
and, making things even worse, this:
*Full City+ roast 11:50 - 454 f*
It seems to me that all of Tom's temps are getting a lot of air. A slower
ramp seems to engender a lower second temp anyway; I sometimes see second
start between 435 and 440, though it's a gentle second when so. Anyway,
that's a nearly 30 degree gap between 426 and 454, defering to his temps.
For my own, I sometimes end up with first crack ending as low as 405, and as
I say 445 is not an uncommon start for second crack -- a 40 degree range.
I'll concede something here, though -- I can't tell you whether that holds
true with any single origin -- I can't say that I've genuinely marked a bean
that finished 1st at 405 being one that also started 2nd at 445. But the
rubric of "what's a city" and "what's a full city" (or plus) has to be
bean-agnostic, so in theory the "City" range does, indeed, seem to cover
that much ground.
<Snip>
Yes!
LOL
All science reduces to the reason we do it.   ;-)
And a rose by any other name would still be the aromatic we note in that
rare microclimate terroir . . .
That's why I'd happily drink Justin's roasts no matter what he calls 'em.
And actually, I envy anyone whose judgment makes good use of their nose (nod
to your post just now, Justin). Despite having a prominent one, I'm still
weak in that talent.
:-)
- Scott

16) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
It seems you may be  focusing tooooooo much on temp EXAMPLES Tom gave. Did
you not read what I quoted of Tom's preface of his roast pictorial:
 
"Ignore the times, and take the temperatures as a ballpark figure. The
important thing is here is to see the transformation the coffee goes through
as it roasts and what look, color, bean size and surface texture,
corresponds to the degree of roast."  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Scott Marquardt
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:30 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +1st crack and city roast
On 1/18/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
 
Gmail has made a top-poster out of me. I feel so dirty.    ;-)
 
<Snip>
2nd.
<Snip>
 
That's with an in-bean-mass temperature probe?
 
Bear in mind the definitions I'm addressing. If "City" means "that last
darned bean just popped", and if "Full City" means "that first darned bean
just snapped," then . . . well, let's go by Tom's numbers: 
 
1st crack finishes 10:40 - 426 f
My dilemma in considering this is that first crack does NOT always end at
426. Not at all. It frequently ends at 410 or so. And that's bean temp. I
doubt anyone would challenge that by wondering whether I'm getting air
temps, because there's not enough exotherm going on (IMO) to suggest the
possibility that the air is, at that point, cooling the bean. This holds
true in my drum (measuring bean mass) as well as the popper (they're
remarkably close, and indeed use the same measurement hardware). Now when I
terminate a roast at 415, shortly after first crack ends (let us say), on
the Rubric I'm challenging that would be a "City" roast and I tend to agree.
But it's not 426, and I suppose most folks would shrug and figure "right,
but it's just after first crack so 'City' is an appropriate way of thinking
of it'." 
 
But then we get to this:
 
Full City roast 11:30 - 444 f
 
and, making things even worse, this:
 
Full City+ roast 11:50 - 454 f
 
It seems to me that all of Tom's temps are getting a lot of air. A slower
ramp seems to engender a lower second temp anyway; I sometimes see second
start between 435 and 440, though it's a gentle second when so. Anyway,
that's a nearly 30 degree gap between 426 and 454, defering to his temps.
For my own, I sometimes end up with first crack ending as low as 405, and as
I say 445 is not an uncommon start for second crack -- a 40 degree range.
I'll concede something here, though -- I can't tell you whether that holds
true with any single origin -- I can't say that I've genuinely marked a bean
that finished 1st at 405 being one that also started 2nd at 445. But the
rubric of "what's a city" and "what's a full city" (or plus) has to be
bean-agnostic, so in theory the "City" range does, indeed, seem to cover
that much ground. 
 
<Snip>
Yes!
 
LOL
 
All science reduces to the reason we do it.   ;-)
 
And a rose by any other name would still be the aromatic we note in that
rare microclimate terroir . . .
 
That's why I'd happily drink Justin's roasts no matter what he calls 'em.
And actually, I envy anyone whose judgment makes good use of their nose (nod
to your post just now, Justin). Despite having a prominent one, I'm still
weak in that talent. 
 
:-)
 
- Scott

17) From: gene nandrea
I have also been wondering about another aspect of the roast level: in your
experience what is the relationship between the roast level determined by
the fresh roasted bean mass and the ground bean color. I think I am seeing a
difference based on the speed of the roast in that the center of the bean is
lighter than the surface of the bean for some roasts? Is it more consistent
to base the level of roast on the ground bean or the whole bean before
grinding?
On 1/18/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Edward Bourgeois
When I first started roasting I took some to a local pro roaster  and the
first thing he did was split a beans and said that it was nice and even
color inside to out and that was a good thing
Ed
My blog sitehttp://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/

19) From: Ronnie Kramer
Well,
   
  I've only been a home roaster for 6 days now.  But I do understand a continuum.  From end of first crack to beginning of second crack, there are an infinite number of possible roast levels.  Instead of giving a name to every degree, people make categories like City, Full City.  Then I imagine a lighter City, a darker City, a lighter Full City, and a darker Full City.
   
  Somewhere along the way the division between darker City and lighter Full City blurs.  So someone decided that's City+ (could have used Full City-, I suppose).
   
  But still the roast levels are a continuum of indiscreet levels (real information).  The names are discrete categories (or boxes, if you will), that we put the various roasts degrees in for convenience (arbitrary information).  So we can talk about them.  There is no one exact City roast, Full City roast, or City+.  
   
  It's a question of how far do you take it.  The distinction between City and City+, or between City+ and Full City begin to blur at some point.  So if we want to discuss these degrees in a more technical manner, we could give them individual names, like City++ or Full City-.
   
  Anyway, that's my take on it from a statistician's point of view.
Scott Marquardt  wrote:
  On 1/18/07, Justin Marquez wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
I've always had a problem with this characterization, and it isn't
just yours. Almost universal among homeroasters seems to be a notion
that City is "just after first crack" and that Full City is "just at
the beginning of second."
My problem with that is darned easy to explain. It leaves City + to
cover anywhere between 20 and 40 degrees of temperature change of the
bean!
Can someone who hews closely to the above rubric (c'mon, I know it's
almost all of ye!) please justify that kind of range for a City + ?
Thank you.
;-)
- SRonnie Kramer
Austin, TX

20) From: Scott Marquardt
I think that's more of a piece of practical advice for home roasters
learning about the process (who also may not be likely to measure temps
reliably) than it is a relegation of temperature to an irrelevant status for
roasting. And the other reason is probably 'cause he knows his temps are
off.   ;-)
But to obviate argument, "off" is a matter of degree. I'm pretty cocky about
my measurements, but I know they could be better. So I'm humble about my
cockiness.    ;-D
On 1/18/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: Scott Marquardt
Absolutely on the ground bean.
On 1/18/07, gene nandrea <1genen> wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Scott Marquardt
On 1/18/07, Ronnie Kramer  wrote:
<Snip>
Let's all contribute points and plot a histogram.   ;-)
Think of it this way: as I (a layman) understand it, a histogram is
supposed to have evenly distributed bins. The problem with the
existing rubric is that the "City +" bin is MUCH wider than the
others.
Maybe it's worse than that. Maybe  the nomenclatures are
equivocal. Maybe City and Full City are talking about moments in a
roast (end of first, beginning of second), whereas City+ is talking
about the range in between. Discrete moments (not bins in a
distribution at all) versus ranges (one huge bin).
Aaack!
Maybe the original nomenclatures were ALL discrete spots on the
continuum, and someone along the way unwittingly began using
nomenclatures that could not possibly have a discrete spot in the
continuum. I mean, what is there between first and second crack that
you can talk about, really, except for temperature? And the problem is
that bean mass temperatures are elusive for most craft roasters, and
even for them the variables for such measures present significant
challenges for consistency from one roaster (person or machine) to
another.
So "City+" is a way of saying "between two points," but since it's
spoken of in the same was as City and Full City, it comes to be
regarded as unequivocally signifying in the same way they do -- and it
doesn't!
We're left with chaos.
I give up. I'm going to drink roasted barley and take up macrame.
- S

23) From: Ronnie Kramer
Scott,
   
  You have a perfect understanding of the situation.  It is a matter of semantics and I see no dilemma for one that understands it so well.  
   
  If City and Full City are discreet points, and City + is anything in between, the important thing is how clearly you understand this.  It doesn't make sense to me, so I must agree with you.
   
  I seriously doubt I'll be able to get everyone to change the way they've been talking about their roasts for years.  And I'd probably become terribly frustrated if I tried.
   
  So what I'll do (for now anyway) is to use my palette as a guide.  If it tastes more like a city roast I'll call it a city roast.  If it tastes more like a full city, I'll call it that.  And if I can't decide or it tastes just in between, I'll call it C+.  If I had access to accurate temperatures and needed to, I'd just refer to the temp at which I stopped the roast.
   
  That's the best I can do in this chaotic world.  Sorry I couldn't help.
Scott Marquardt  wrote:
  On 1/18/07, Ronnie Kramer wrote:
<Snip>
Let's all contribute points and plot a histogram. ;-)
Think of it this way: as I (a layman) understand it, a histogram is
supposed to have evenly distributed bins. The problem with the
existing rubric is that the "City +" bin is MUCH wider than the
others.
Maybe it's worse than that. Maybe the nomenclatures are
equivocal. Maybe City and Full City are talking about moments in a
roast (end of first, beginning of second), whereas City+ is talking
about the range in between. Discrete moments (not bins in a
distribution at all) versus ranges (one huge bin).
Aaack!
Maybe the original nomenclatures were ALL discrete spots on the
continuum, and someone along the way unwittingly began using
nomenclatures that could not possibly have a discrete spot in the
continuum. I mean, what is there between first and second crack that
you can talk about, really, except for temperature? And the problem is
that bean mass temperatures are elusive for most craft roasters, and
even for them the variables for such measures present significant
challenges for consistency from one roaster (person or machine) to
another.
So "City+" is a way of saying "between two points," but since it's
spoken of in the same was as City and Full City, it comes to be
regarded as unequivocally signifying in the same way they do -- and it
doesn't!
We're left with chaos.
I give up. I'm going to drink roasted barley and take up macrame.
- SRonnie Kramer
Austin, TX

24) From: Peter Zulkowski
Right on Ronnie!
But please do not forget that with some roasters, like a popper, there 
are some beans that get done further than others (melange roast), but 
then all roasters cook somewhat unevenly. Someone mentioned that a 
slower ramp to second brings a lower temp at second. Must mean that the 
beans are heated more evenly through the bean and /or more of the beans 
are at the same temp.
Me, I like the melange, where all the beans are roasted just a bit 
differently, but some of them have got to second crack.
PeterZ
Ronnie Kramer wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: Brett Mason
If you're struggling with "City+" then how do you cope when people and
vendors offer "Bold" or "Strong" coffee?  I mean, what the heck is "Bold"
anyway?
Why don't they mention "Char" or "Gruel" ?
Brett
On 1/18/07, Ronnie Kramer  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

26) From: Ronnie Kramer
Brett Mason  wrote:
  ""Why don't they mention "Char" or "Gruel" ?""
   
  I'll have a cup of your finest Char please.  What, no Char?  Then a cup of the Gruel for me!
   
Ronnie Kramer
Austin, TX

27) From: Rich Adams
A quote from Tom:
"Beware that coffee is more about exceptions that rules"
I pretty sure he means "then".

28) From: Brett Mason
or "than"
On 1/18/07, Rich Adams  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

29) From: miKe mcKoffee
Actually if we're gonna get picky he may have meant "than" not "then", but
coffee does indeed seem to be about "exceptions 'that' rules" what we do
with coffee:-) Ok, so now "rules" should be "rule"!
miKe
<Snip>

30) From: Rich Adams
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
or than ,,,,,yes.
ty

31) From: Rich Adams
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound "picky" to you, I typed 'then' when i heard 
'than' in my head,  it was just a post to point out our hosts opinion on top 
of all these definitions being posted.  He goes on to point out some 
exceptions in the following sentences so I don't believe he means 
"exceptions that rule".  :-)http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.htmlRespectfully,
Rich Adams

32) From: stereoplegic
katz coffee's harrar (of all coffees, why this one?) dark roast (their 
"light" roast is vienna (?!?)) makes $* espresso roast (i'd say light 
french) look like a cinnamon roast. it's definitely "bold", but i'd say 
"char" or "gruel" is just about spot on.
homeroast wrote:
<Snip>

33) From: DJ Garcia
I have to agree with Mike. Play & enjoy. In my three years of HotTopping =
I
have had two roasts that I threw away as they went totally awry. The =
rest
have been between really enjoyable to uncannily tremendous, all judging =
by
my limited standards of course, which is the one that really counts :-).
Even several roasts gone apparently wrong because of one mishap or =
another
ended up in unplanned territory yet eminently enjoyable.
Cheers!
DJ, off to Thailand with a couple lbs. Mystical Idido and a Swiss Gold =
Cup
O'Coffee

34) From: David Morgenlender
Scott,
Your message has perfect timing for me!  I think I hit your harsh range =
...
I received some Kenya Auction Lot 54 Peaberry as a tradition back in =
November.
I roasted it in my FreshRoast+8 to C+ (I think) on 11/21.  This coffee =
was
unbelievably good with amazing berry & citrus.  
Then I roasted it again on 1/16, this time on my relatively new GeneCafe,=
 again
shooting for C+.  I thought I nailed C+, except the beans looked to be =
too dark
for C+.  However, there was still a lot of chaff in the cracks.  This =
batch is
TERRIBLE.  Somewhat bitter (but not the bitterness I get when the grinder=
 needs
cleaning, etc.), but beyond that just terrible flavors ... undrinkable.  =
I've
been trying to figure out what went wrong.  In general my GC roasts are =
better
than my FR+8 roasts.  Even if I over-roasted slightly, I figured I might =
lose
some of the fruit, but it wouldn't be terrible.  I was wondering if in =
these 2
months the beans went rancid.  But they do smell ok, as does the brew.
Maybe I hit your notch???
BTW, with which Kenya did you hit the notch?
Dave
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:36:38 -0600, you wrote:
<Snip>
unsvbscribes) go to =http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings==========================
==========================
=====
Dave Morgenlender
e-mail: dmorgen
==========================
==========================
=====

35) From: Scott Marquardt
On 1/23/07, David Morgenlender  wrote:
<Snip>
I'd say yes.
Looking at the coffee chemistry notes, I have a theory or two but with
my relative illiteracy and inexperience it's just chicken bones and,
ironically enough, tea leaves.   ;-)
<Snip>
It's not from Tom. It's actually a generic Kenya AA (just their
national product), but it's one of the most consistently satisfying
coffees my acquaintances, friends, coworkers and customers have
enjoyed. I've roasted some great coffees in recent months, but this
one is just great.
By way of a compliment to Tom with this bean and others I buy from
elsewhere, whenever I get a superbly graded wet process bean I can't
help thinking "this looks like a SM bean."
I haven't bought any SM beans for a while -- but SM remains the first
place I send anyone whose interest is piqued by tasting good coffees,
regardless of where I obtain them.
- Scott


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