I'd say neither zip nor cloth bags really close to same as vacuum sealing. Not going to get into the theories or whys etc. of vacuum sealing greens, been debated over and over from every level home roaster to commercial. Big part of the debate seems to be cost versus benefit, not whether there is a benefit. It might be interesting to note that some premium wholesale suppliers of greens are now shipping in large vacuum sealed bags, talking like 100# vac bags I've seen delivered to a particular Artisan roaster! And even some entire premium lots have had extra bucks paid to have them vacuum sealed from point of origin through shipping etc. Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. <Snip>
The implied benefit seems to be freshness. Does it make that much of a change in the cup flavor(s) to have the beans vacuum sealed straight from the drying process? I have never tasted coffee that was roasted that early in the journey. Is it better tasting or is the intended purpose to extend shelf life?
On 1/19/07, Tom Ulmer wrote: <Snip> The 100# vac bags are to prevent "stuff" from permeating the beans in route from the producer to the roaster are they not? Stuff such as diesel fuel, mold, moisture, etc. during the overseas journeys, right? Safe Journeys and Sweet Music Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
My understanding very early vac sealing for transport primarily to assure protection from environmental changes/degradations. Ports of origin etc. often high temp high humidity conditions which are not good at all for greens! Wholesalers storing and shipping vac'd greens for same or similar reasons, all of which would also equate to preserved greens life and extended shelf life. Some Artisan roasters have built precies temp and humidity controlled storage rooms for their greens. Others more recently have gone to hermetically sealing and deep freezing greens with reported excellent results. Since coffees are an annual cycle their goal is to maintain as near peak consistent quality as possible crop to crop. Of course home roasters aren't under the same constraints of attempting to have a consistent product year 'round. But if you want to have a particular green around crop cycle to crop cycle IMO the best storage possible 'taint a bad idea! Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before. <Snip>
I believe Tom mentioned spending a small fortune to have this done for one of his recent shipments. Eddie -- My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/19/07, miKe mcKoffee wrote:">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/19/07, miKe mcKoffee wrote: <Snip>
<Snip> This is impressive evidence. I am now going to vacseal all of my greens. This will at least hold in the original moisture. Since my heart attack my coffee consumption is only 1/3 of former usage. So it looks like my greens will be around a long time. I cannot let them go to waste. --
Ken, Remind me of where you live. Is it a relatively dry climate, such as Nevada, New Mexico, etc? (I'm still thinking about your comments regarding leaving roasted beans in an open bowl.) Thanks, Brian On 1/20/07, Ken Mary wrote: <Snip>
I don't know very much, but if I wanted to dry something Bone Dry, I'd subject the material to a vacuum, and keep it that way. The vapor pressure of water will cause it to leave. -ro -- "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
Ray, OK, my turn to say it. Using a foodsaver type appliance on beans or any kind of food is not in the same ballpark as subjecting it to a vacuum. Perhaps it should be renamed "Ambient air remover" to avoid misunderstanding. I'm almost but not quite at the tipping point of storing my greens that way. Beyond the improvements that might be achieved there's the dark side: Imagine how big our stashes would be if we thought our beans could stay fresher longer. On 1/20/07, raymanowen wrote: <Snip> -- MichaelB
<Snip> I live in western PA north of Pittsburgh. My local climate is dry except for a few months during summer. I live on a hilltop away from any wajor water sources. My cheap hygrometer reads 29% now but averages 40% in spring and fall. IMO, roasted coffee needs free air circulation to both remove CO2 and add oxygen for proper rest and flavor development. After enough rest time in air, 2 days in my experience, I close the container. --
When I heard you mention that, Ken, it made sense to me. I store roasted beans in glass jars; when they first go in the smell is clean and very pleasant, but after a week or so hints at staling. I roast only half a pound at a time, and beans are generally used up after 10 or so days. I have removed the covers from my roasted beans and will be interested to see if the stale odors appear toward the 10 day mark. Brian On 1/21/07, Ken Mary wrote: <Snip>
The staling you mention may be due to roast method rather than storage. My old popper roasts went bad in 5 to 7 days. My drum roasts do not stale until about 30 days. Some shelf life tests showed no loss of flavor even out to 25 days when stored in plastic bottles with non airtight lids. -- ---------- <Snip> <Snip>
This morning's press of 10 day old, drum roasted Migongo Bourbon was superb. My opinion is that the flavors exploded between the 3 day and 10 day rest. Although I've never had any of my roasts around at 25 days, I could imagine a light roast making the journey.
Now you have me thinking about others' reference to flavor explosions at 4 days or greater. I have never experienced this as nearly all of my roasts peak after 2 days, then remain nearly constant at peak level out to as much as the 25 days I mentioned previously. I should do some sealing tests immediately post-roast, probably vacsealing, and determine the peak rest time and shelf life. Presently all of my roasts are left open for 2 days or longer. -- ---------- <Snip> <Snip>
I've pretty much concluded that drum roasting is superior to fluid bath roasting, at least in small batches, based on comments on this list over a long period of time. I will be staying with HG/DB for the foreseeable future, however. I will try to do some experimentation, starting with my next roast next weekend. I divide the half-pound roast into 2 empty jars anyway; I will screw a cap onto one and leave the other open, and use them at the same rate, and see whether I notice any difference. Brian On 1/22/07, Ken Mary wrote: <Snip>
On 1/22/07, Brian Kamnetz wrote: <Snip> I have both HG/DB and drum and use them both. The drum roasts are different, but I wouldn't say it is superior - just different. I like them both. I can certainly control the HG/DB roasts more predictably, but then I have 3x more experience with HG/DB roasting than the RK drum. I just did a 3/4# Columbia Excelsio 13556 roast with HG/DB yesterday afternoon. 17 minutes to FC. (exactly 1 snap of second after a 1 minute coast between 1st and 2nd.) I had the HG "down and dirty" about a half inch off the bean mass and stirred furiously to keep the roast moving evenly, but I knew exactly how to get it where I wanted it in under 20 minutes. Safe Journeys and Sweet Music Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)