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Topic: 6oz. coffee in espresso machine (21 msgs / 494 lines)
1) From: Jeff Kalikstein
On the sweetmarias description for the Solis Master 5000 machine, Tom
describes the 6oz. coffee that it makes.  Can this be achieved on a
non-superauto machine by using coarser grounds, to get a 30 sec. pour on
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2) From: John Roche
on 9/22/01 10:36, Jeff Kalikstein at jeff wrote:
Never do this! If you need 6oz you need to make a 2 ounce double in 25-30
seconds, then add hot water to it to make 6 oz (americano). If you push 6oz
of water through the espresso puck anything after the first two ounces turns
bitter and weak and ruins the coffee. If you add the water after, you dilute
to 6oz but you don't get the bitterness. Many bad things happen if you over
extract coffee. Just say no.
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3) From: Jeffrey A. Bertoia
Yes it can...  The trick as you suggest is to adjust the grind to 
maintain a 30 second pour.  The other issue is temperature stability. 
Espresso machines are generally designed to produce 2 oz. of water at a 
fairly consistent temperature but 6 oz. is asking a lot.
Many of my non espresso drinking friends prefer this to an Americano.
Jeff Kalikstein wrote:
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4) From: EuropaChris
This is called a Cafe Suisse, I believe, and is VERY popular in Holland, where I am going back to today on business.  Most places have superauto machines, and all you do is push the coffee button and voila!  They tune the roast for coffee, so espressos are a little sour, but the coffee is amazing - very similar to vac pot crossed with a little moka pot.  yumm.
"Jeffrey A. Bertoia"  wrote:
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5) From: John Roche
I still disagree with this approach to getting a 6oz coffee/espresso. I just
returned from Nascore where Dr. John of Josuma Coffee was lecturing on
espresso. One of the demos he performed speaks directly to this issue. He
places a double shot in the machine and draws 6 ounces thru the puck,
placing about an ounce in each of six consecutive shot glasses. He has you
taste each glass in order to observe the degradation of the shot and the
qualities of over extracted espresso. If you try the fifth or sixth glass
you will notice that not only is the coffee/espresso extremely weak by this
point, but it is also quite bitter. After about two ounces of extraction
thru a double, all the *good* components of the coffee are used up. What
remains are most of the negative qualities, notably bitterness. The aim of
espresso is to emulsify the oils unlike drip brewing and other methods. As
Dr. John points out crema is everything relative to espresso. You are trying
to obtain a certain amount of pressure to force the water into the coffee
and emulsify the oils- if you try to make the grind courser to get 6oz of
water thru a puck in 30 seconds you are working in direct opposition to the
principals and techniques of achieving good espresso and crema production.
But, one likes what one likes. Of course it can be done but it might be wise
to conduct your own experiments in the various ways to make a 6 oz coffee-
be it americano, suisse, what have you.
on 9/23/01 9:15, EuropaChris at EuropaChris wrote:
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6) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
This is quite interesting discussion.  I always thought that it is a bad
idea to try to make (much) more than the correct amount of espresso in one
shot.  It seems that the Solis 5000 can do it.  Can someone describe what
"magic" process the 5000 uses to make six ounces of good coffee?
Regards, Lubos
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7) From: Jeffrey A. Bertoia
John Roche wrote:
 > snip 8<
No one is referring to this as espresso.  It is actually much more like a
cup of coffee.  It definitely does violate all the rules for making a
good espresso.  The puck comes out watery and has no form.  It is 
difficult to get a good tamp that does not have much channeling.
However, when done correctly it produces a very good cup of coffee
similar to french press but clean.
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8) From: John Roche
on 9/23/01 10:24, Jeffrey A. Bertoia at jbertoia wrote:
I guess I wasn't trying to start an "is it espresso or isn't it" argument.
I'm assuming espresso as the base in making a six ounce *coffee* drink. I
was just pointing out that in attempting to achieve a 6oz coffee from a
double basket of espresso, why not choose a method that provides the best
flavor possible? My point is it can not be done *correctly* in the sense of
avoiding the bitterness that comes from over extraction. Now, if you like
that, you like that. However I would suggest conducting a test. Try adding 4
oz of hot water to the espresso vs. pulling 6 oz thru the puck. If the added
water method is not strong enough, back the water down to 3 ounces or
consider adding another single shot of espresso. I keep asking myself what
is the goal? Why six ounces? I'm assuming that one wishes a strong coffee
that is is not as powerful as an espresso but maintains some of the
components/taste of an espresso otherwise why not just use another
extraction method? Crema is what makes an espresso an espresso and (in part)
distinguishes it from other brewing methods. It's not simply about making
*strong* coffee. 
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9) From: TFisher511
After reading the first group of posts, I just went out and tried 6 oz. through my SL-90. I ground the coffee somewhere between fine espresso and drip and the tamp was on the light side.
The first couple of ounces was very dark as expected and it just kept getting lighter until the finish was just a light tan in color. The coffee in the cup looked dark, like a very strong cup of coffee. There were some oils on the top, and some sediment in the bottom of the cup. 
Overall, quite unimpressive. It was not bitter, but it tasted weak and not at all what I expected by the appearance. It really wasn't all that bad or all that good. I am sure by changing the grind and tamp, I could change the cup. But right now, It's just not worth messing around with since I have the tools to make good coffee, vac coffee or excellent espresso.
I used Tanzanian peaberry for the test.
Terry F

10) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
"I keep asking myself what is the goal? Why six ounces?"
John, as Tom says in his description of the 5000, I believe that the answer
is ...
" ...but it is this slightly larger drink, 6 oz. in size with a thin tan
crema on the surface and rich buttery body, that has won us over, especially
brewed with fresh-roasted Ethiopian Harar, or Indonesians like Sumatra,
Sulwesi and Java. And to get this fantastic cup, you just set the coffee
selector to 6 oz. and push one button!"
Some people just do not like espresso but like "regular coffee."  I think
that's "why six ounces."  In our home, when we have some guests and
everybody but one of guests like espresso (or cappuccino), I end up making
for that one person four cups of coffee in our vacuum brewer. I would be
nice just to push a different button and make him (or her) one larger cup in
the same espresso machine.
I still do not understand how the Solis 5000 does it.  Does it automatically
adjust the grinder for coarser setting? How much ground coffee does it use?
Does it in fact brew several batches in the same cup?
Regards, Lubos
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11) From: Jeff Kalikstein
I just tried for myself with some Mocca-Java.  The result was a coffee with
generally the "right" taste for my regular coffee, but with less flavor, and
some crema on top.  I think that the flavor loss resulting from losing the
temp through the pull.  I'm currently using a low-end gaggia machine, so
maybe the boiler doesn't have enough capacity (or maybe I was a little too
anxious to try this out and didn't let it warm up enough).  I do have a
SL-90 on the way, and I'll try it with that machine as well.

12) From: Jeffrey A. Bertoia
John Roche wrote:
   I drink nothing but espresso drinks.  As such the only
brewer set up is the espresso machine.  The drip machine has even been
moved from the pantry to the basement.
As Lubos said... When people come over that don't appreciate espresso
drinks, cafe americano included, I used to haul out the single cup
brewer and make a cup out of that.  I did discover that most of these
people really like a cafe suisse.  It doesn't taste like espresso it
tastes like strong brewed coffee.  That is what they like, that it
doesn't taste like espresso.
I disagree...  I think that you can do it *correctly*.  It is really a
very nice drink.  I don't that it has to be over extracted.  Since the
pressure inside the porta filter never achieves the 9 or so atmospheres
required to brew espresso, it's definitely not espresso.
When made properly, it tastes nothing like a lungo which I agree is
generally bitter and over extracted.
As I said, I believe they taste very differently.  The first is an
americano which has many of the same taste qualities of an espresso.
The second is a suisse which has taste qualities like maybe a FP.
This is perhaps the issue.  The people that I serve a suisse to are not
generally espresso drinkers.  They don't necessarily want those taste
components that I generally try so hard to cultivate.
If I can make a good cup without having to resort to getting out another
brewer then that is a plus.
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13) From: Tom & Maria
Great advice!.,, make the grind coarser to avoid over-extraction and a
soupy puck. I personally make 6 oz coffee on my SL-90 whenever I have
brought home some roasted sample that just isnt going to work for espresso,
and I dont want to do a vac pot.  No, it never tastes like an
infused/brewed cup. but I LIKE 6 oz coffee from the espresso machine. The
odd thing is I cant get the "cafe creme" or cafe suisse results I got from
the Master 5000 when we had one for 6 weeks at the shop. Let me tell you, a
6 oz cafe creme of pure Harar rested for 24 hours will quiet down the
protestations of an espresso fundimentalist (I count myself as a former
one...) who believes that the world does not exist beyond ristretto. Hey, a
good cup of coffee is whereever you find it! -Tom
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                  "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
           Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
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14) From: John Roche
on 9/23/01 7:52, Jeffrey A. Bertoia at jbertoia wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something. How exactly is it made? You keep the 3o
seconds, but go course on the grind to get the 6oz volume? I don't get how
it can not be over extracted???
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15) From: John Roche
Okay... but why does the 30 second rule apply here? Why not 45 seconds or 60
seconds? It seems you are trying to avoid the pressure build up, perhaps
even trying to avoid getting crema (gasp) almost like a speed drip filter
on 9/23/01 11:04, Tom & Maria at tom wrote:
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16) From: Edward Vigil
Tom wrote:  good cup of coffee is whereever you find it!
What words of wisdom!  I couldn't agree more.  I use to be a purist about a
whole lot of stuff, and now I simply enjoy things for there simplicity.  This
morning, I walked into my kitchen and turned the Solis Master 5000 and waited
for it to warm up.  I finally pushed that button and out came 6 ounces of
coffee with lots of crema.  It was smooth and rich.  I have long put away my
drip coffee in favor of the master 5000.  Yesterday, I wanted an iced
latte, so
I brewed two doubles, mixed it with milk, and flavored it with syrups.  I
chilled it and it was "yum."
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17) From: Jeffrey A. Bertoia
As far as how it's made.  Grind what I would call a fine drip grind.
Use 15 grams and tamp carefully to avoid channeling.  Pour six oz.
in 30 seconds or just a little longer.  YMMV depending on how well
your machine can hold brewing temperature over a larger than normal
brewing volume.
I do not know why you suggest that it has to be over extracted as
we generally make a cup of drip with 7 grams per 6 oz. of water and
this uses 15.  Since the pressures never achieve the required
extraction for espresso the espresso extraction rules do not apply.
As Chris mentioned at the start of this.  This is quite popular in the
Netherlands.  I learned how to make this for a Dutch friend of mine
John Roche wrote:
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18) From: Steve D - Kc4rkf

19) From: J&K Kouri
This whole discussion has been really interesting to me as I have been drinking my coffee this way for some time.  I have a Saeco superautomatic, and brew a mug (I am sure it is more than 6 oz..) with the same grind and dose as used for an espresso. It has a rich thick crema, and tastes great!  It is a great improvement over a drip grind in my opinion.
However, I am now interested in increasing the dose to see how the flavor of the coffee changes.  I have avoided doing this because I just assumed it would make the coffee too strong.  I might add, that my wife prefers her's brewed with less water ( a different button on the machine) and then adds hot water to fill it up the rest of the way.  She can tell the difference if I give her one of mine.....
Off to experiment!!
jeff (colorado)f)+-ib,筙j(Ybا~g-From ???@??? Tue Sep 25 07:47:56 2001
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From: "Ed Needham" 
Subject: Re: +6oz. coffee in espresso machine
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I like the Josuma overextraction experiment mentioned previously.  It is an
extremely easy way to tell the exact stage where the coffee begins to
overextract.  Take several one ounce cups, start the shot, and slide a new
cup in each time the one ounce mark is reached.  keep track of the order and
sample each, until you begin to taste bitter, lifeless, dull coffee.  It
tells exactly how many ounces you can 'pull' before overextracting makes the
coffee taste bad.
My guess is that your wife likes hers 'stopped' before it is overextracted
and then she adds hot water to get the strength she likes.  You like yours a
bit overextracted (if you use a typical grind and dose intended for a 2 oz.
espresso but pull more than six ounces).  You are happy with this drink, and
I say great.  Without seeming to try to change your coffee habits, I'm
curious...Have you tried it the way your wife likes it?  How does it
compare?  What if you increased the dose and then blended it with hot water?
Ed Needham
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20) From: Edward Vigil
J&K Kouri wrote:  This whole discussion has been really interesting to me as I
have been drinking my coffee this way for some time. I have a Saeco
superautomatic, and brew a mug (I am sure it is more than 6 oz..) with the
grind and dose as used for an espresso. It has a rich thick crema, and tastes
great! It is a great improvement over a drip grind in my opinion.
I can certainly relate.  I am almost positive that the Saeco Vienna and the
Saeco Super Automatic have the same brewing mechanism as the Solis Master
5000.  One is made in Italy and the other in Switzerland.  I don't feel that 6
ounces necessarily produces a bitter cup of coffee that others describe as
extracted.  It is a great tasting cup of coffee full of richness and crema as
J&K describes.
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21) From: EuropaChris
One thing I surmise is that the superauto machines that effectively do the Cafe Suisse adjust the grind and possibly the dose of coffee to optimize for the shot.  I had my first one in a month or so this morning at my hotel and it was delicious.  She brewed two "shots" which were about 4 or 5 oz. each into a little ceramic preheated server which she brought to the table.  It was definitely a cross between moka pot and espresso.  Strong, smooth, rich, and very good.
As I've said before, an espresso shot from the same machine is a bit thin, sour and lifeless.  Not bad, but not what I like either.  But, the Dutch are not espresso drinkers, they are coffee drinkers, so the roast is optimized (as is the machine I assume) for coffee.
The machine is a Carina (don't know the model), but it's a superauto with separate steam and hot water wands.  The coffee and espresso buttons are all preprogrammed.
Chris in
Oldenzaal, Holland
"Ed Needham"  wrote:
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