HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Does roast level determine grind? (21 msgs / 567 lines)
1) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
Hello all.  Newbie here who is hoping to pick the brains of all of you 
roasting goddesses and gods. (And yes, I am hoping that flattery will 
get me everywhere!)  My situation:  I use a Technivorm for drip coffee, 
and a cheap kitchenaid grinder.  I have a nice Mazzer Mini that I use 
for my espresso, but I hate using it for regular drip coffee, because 
it is such a pain to clean between coffee selections.  My question:  Is 
it normal for the grind to need to be coarser if the coffee is taken to 
a lighter roast level (say City+ for example.)  Whenever I brew 
something that I had roasted lighter, I have to grind courser or my 
Technivorm will drip so slowly, that I have to watch it to make sure 
that the filter does not overflow.  And the slow flow effects the brew. 
  I use a Swiss Gold cone by the way.  Thanks in advance for any 
replies.
Michael
L. Michael Fraley, MD

2) From: Coffeenut
Mike,
From what I've understood, with drip you basically grind as fine as possible
without choking the filter.  I followed that for years and believed that it
also enabled me to use less coffee than I would have to use for a coarser
grind.  
These days, I just use the established coffee/water ratios as a guide and
grind a few notches (on my Rocky DL) above the choke point.  I've not found
a need to grind differently because of the roast level, but do occasionally
use more coffee with lighter roasts if I feel it is too weak.  I'm "all
ears" though if someone has found a need to grind differently due to roast
level.
Rick

3) From: Carole Zatz
On 1/28/07, L. Michael Fraley, MD  wrote:
<Snip>
I also use a TV for drip coffee and haven't noticed a difference based
on roast level. What I noticed was a difference based on time of
resting. When I first got the TV I had a lot of problems with blooming
when I used a Swiss Gold cone filter. It really depended on how long I
let the roasted beans sit before using them. If I used them the next
day (for example) I almost aways got too much bloom. I ended up
switching to Filtropa white paper filters which pretty well eliminated
the problem. Of course, the resulting cup of coffee is not quite the
same. More of the oils are removed (I think that's what it is) from
the paper filter. I actually like it better but my husband likes it
best using the Swiss Gold. I haven't tried adjusting the grind, tho,
so that may work as well.

4) From: Maryann & Dave Schellenberg
Somehow I've missed both these problems with my TV.
Are both of you following Tom's suggestion?
    I use this switch to hold back the water/coffee for
    the first 30 seconds – 1 minute of the brewing cycle, allowing
    better extraction, then change the switch to “Slow-Drip.” (I also
    stir the
    coffee/water mixture in the Filter Cone at that time. Then I put the
    lid back on top of the Filter Cone [helps maintain brew temperature] …
    but this stirring step is optional). I only use the Slow-Drip
    setting. It is intended for making half-pots according to Technivorm’s
    instructions, but it allows for better mixing of the grounds and
    water no matter how much coffee you make. This whole “No-Drip/Stir”
    method is completely optional; I just feel I get a bit more body and
    more overall intensity using this technique. If you do this you must not
    walk off and forget to turn the switch to allow the coffee to drip!!!
I do this every time, and never had any fear of running over the top of 
the SwissGold filter.
Dave S.
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Carole Zatz
Good tip. You're right. If I do the hold and stir (either with or
without switching it to slow-drip) I can control the bloom. I usually,
however, just add the water, grind the beans, put them in the filter,
turn it on and walk away. If I took the extra step to stir after
turning the TV on, my overflow problem is gone and I can use the Swiss
Gold filter (although it gets really really close!). I just normally
don't do that extra step.
On 1/28/07, Maryann & Dave Schellenberg  wrote:
<Snip>
…
<Snip>
s
<Snip>
not
<Snip>

6) From: Ed Needham
No.
Roast level does not determine grind except when the beans are so oily that 
it affects extraction time.
The extraction time determines grind.
The coffee method determines grind.
Now, you can play with the grind for different coffee brewing systems to 
tweak what works best, and if you are really bored, you can tweak grind 
based on the type of bean or roast level, and maybe you can capture some 
elusive flavor with one grind over another.  I think too much time spent 
along these last two lines is chasing your tail.
For espresso extraction, the grind changes for hundreds of reasons, 
including barometric pressure, humidity, type of bean, roast level, etc.
You're a doctor.  Buy two Mini's. (grin)
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

7) From: Scott Marquardt
On 1/28/07, L. Michael Fraley, MD  wrote:
<Snip>
Proper extraction duration is dramatically affected by grind level,
because you're changing the overall surface area of the coffee which
you're exposing to brewing water. This is NOT a trivial variable.
With that said, I'd suspect the reason you're getting a stall in your
drip with lighter roasts is that the oils from the lighter roast are
gluing fines to the filter's pores. Dark roasts volatilize some of the
oils, though I've had trouble finding information that would give some
idea just how much. From experience, though, I know I can get a lot
more oils on the surface of the cup with a light roast than with a
dark. It's MUCH easier for me to clean polyester felt filter cones for
darker roasts than for lighter.
2 cents.

8) From: Brett Mason
Hiya Doc,
You're pummeling the beans into little bits that plug your filter.  Get a
burr grinder for your drip (notice the Symptom - Diagnosis - Remedy thing
going on here?) coffee.  It will taste better too.
There's lots of rules of thumb on how much dust you should pummel into your
coffeee - I say "none".  In fact, I say "grind coarse and you'll get a
better, sweeter brew" although others disagree and often point out that I
might be wasting coffee.  Life is too short for coffee that sucks.
Your technivorm is like my porsche - it's high tech and will perform.  Don't
put dust in your TV, I won't put cooking oil into my porsche.  It's worth
doing it well, don't cheat yourself...
OK, let the disagreement begin,
Brett
  Zassman
On 1/28/07, L. Michael Fraley, MD  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

9) From: Eddie Dove
What's up Doc?
I must concur with Brett.
I use my Mazzer Mini for my Technivorm (with Swissgold) and my espresso.
This morning I brewed a pot of Brazil Fazenda Brauna Flatbean for my wife
and then espresso for me all day long (Yemen Mocha Sana'ani, Kowali Kona,
Brazil Fazenda and Java Djampit).  Tomorrow morning it will be two pots of
drip.   I am very particular about "cross-contamination".  I use a 1" paint
brush to sweep, then dose away.
Absolutely nailed the Djampit (8th day of rest) and the Yemen ... the Brazil
and Kona were great too, but the Djampit came out on top today.  The Djampit
really made an exquisite elixir today!
Respectfully,
Eddie
-- 
Errare humanun est - sed perseverare diabolicum
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/28/07, Brett Mason  wrote:">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 1/28/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: raymanowen
I just brewed some 31hour rested Panama Auction Lot -Cafe de Eleta in the T=
V
this afternoon. 46g ground at 50 setting on BUFF. I have to get some
cleaner, because I, too have been overflowing my filter unless I watch it
like a Hawk.
Tends to overflow. Gotta clean it again. Ya' think? I've only brewed 130
times since the last cleanout. I've used 45 gallons of filtered water to
brew. Pûr- Pfooey.
Distilled water won't have anything in it but H2O molecules. No polar/
non-polar solvent to bring on the gasoline. Won't precipitate anything on
the heating surfaces. If I dissolve gasoline in ethanol, and the gasohol
solution in my brewing water, I'll have a high octane shot. Not!
If coffee brewed with distilled water tastes flat, think what you're saying=
.
The distilled water contributes no taste, so either your coffee grounds
taste flat themselves or you are brewing too weak.
You are in fact brewing too weak. For the same volume of brewing water,
distilled water has a higher number of available water molecules not
carrying any solute garbage. I call it garbage because somewhere upline fro=
m
your faucet, those water molecules flowed out of a hospital waste system,
"etc, etc." Some were even antifreeze in a radiator sometime.
Don't blame me- I drove a Corvair! The EPA mandate is that water sold for
public consumption can contain all manner of ugly stuff- it just has to be
neutralized to the point that it won't make a healthy person sick right
away. Talk to your Doctor...
Get this from the Pall Filter Corp, a note to metropolitan water treatment
managers:
"With stringent water treatment regulations and a growing demand for safer
water[Not Safe Water], you must ensure strict compliance with purity
standards.[Filth Standards] Filtration is critical to the success of your
water treatment system in meeting purity goals. To produce pure water from
any water source, consider the Pall Aria™ line of water treatment systems
with hollow fiber microfiltration or ultrafiltration membrane technology."
I realize it's self-serving advertising, but they suggest it takes all this
to make the water supply .
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Maximum Contaminant Levels- Not gonna' brew coffee without 'em- wouldn't be
prudent!

11) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
Yeah, I do follow Tom's suggestion.  And to be honest, I have the same =
problem when doing a manual pourover method (with the swiss gold or 
paper filters.)  I am beginning to think it is somehow related to the 
actual grinder.  I have noted that there is a very uneven grind, and 
with the lighter roast coffees, I see a lot more dust in the grind.  
Maybe this is related to the hardness of the bean at this roast?  I 
think the best thing for me to do is invest in a second good grinder.
Mike
Somehow I've missed both these problems with my TV.
Are both of you following Tom's suggestion?
     I use this switch to hold back the water/coffee for
     the first 30 seconds – 1 minute of the brewing cycle, allowing
     better extraction, then change the switch to “Slow-Drip.” (I =
also
     stir the
     coffee/water mixture in the Filter Cone at that time. Then I put =
the
     lid back on top of the Filter Cone [helps maintain brew =
temperature]
     but this stirring step is optional). I only use the Slow-Drip
     setting. It is intended for making half-pots according to 
Technivorm’s
     instructions, but it allows for better mixing of the grounds and
     water no matter how much coffee you make. This whole “No-Drip/Stir”=
     method is completely optional; I just feel I get a bit more body =
and
     more overall intensity using this technique. If you do this you 
must not
     walk off and forget to turn the switch to allow the coffee to 
drip!!!
I do this every time, and never had any fear of running over the top of
the SwissGold filter.
Dave S.
L. Michael Fraley, MD=

12) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
Thanks to y'all for the great responses.  I think the grinder really is 
the problem.  The Kitchen-Aid I use is a burr grinder, but not a good 
one.  I think the suggestion, however, that it is the fines mucking 
things up is a valid one.  I guess I need to stop being so lazy and 
just use the Mazzer for the TV as well as for espresso!  (At least 
until I can convince the wife that I need yet another expensive 
grinder!)  I love how this community really pitches in to help when one 
of us is having a problem!  Thanks again!
Mike
L. Michael Fraley, MD

13) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
This morning, I used the Mazzer Mini for a pot of City+ Brazil Flatbean 
(Brauna Estate) and the problem is solved!  Incredible coffee!  The 
Kitchen-Aid grinder is officially retired.
Mike
L. Michael Fraley, MD

14) From: MichaelB
Mike,
I regularly use my Mini for all types of coffee. Mostly espresso (6 on the
dial) but also Turkish (5), Vacuum (7) and French press (8). One really easy
way to dial in the proper grind is to get an extra collar adjusting pin,
that metal pin with plastic handle that sticks out of the collar. Using two
on opposite sides of the collar make it very quick and easy to steer the
machine to the grind you want.
There are also many mods you can make to your Mini to allow you to clean it
completely between uses. See the archives herehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ and also the home-barista board for lots of
ideas.
Enjoy your coffee
On 1/29/07, L. Michael Fraley, MD  wrote:
<Snip>
--
MichaelB

15) From: Ed Needham
If you're using a chopper type grinder for the drip brew, you'll get dust 
and chunks, uneven extraction and clogged filters.  Even with a cheap or 
dull home burr grinder, you might get the same thing.  I use my espresso 
grinder for drip and espresso.  I really like the result.  Two grinders 
would be easier, but I think that's a bit wasteful.  I just slow down and 
take the time to change the grind and clean out the biggest portion of the 
grinds when changing over.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

16) From: Ed Needham
Bingo.

17) From: Barry Luterman
Very smart decision. Get some of those brushes Mike McKoffee talks about for 
cleaning. Use minute rice once a month to clean the grinder.Put the Kitchen 
aid in a garage sale.

18) From: jim gundlach
--Apple-Mail-1-695399395
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
On Jan 29, 2007, at 4:33 AM, L. Michael Fraley, MD wrote:
<Snip>
Michael,
The key to doing this is to identify your two grinding points and  
only put the amount you want to grind for any brew in the hopper at  
grinding time.  This will leave the space between the burrs empty  
between grinds and make adjustment easier.
      Pecan JIM
--Apple-Mail-1-695399395
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
On Jan 29, 2007, =
at 4:33 AM, L. Michael Fraley, MD wrote:

 I guess I need to stop being = so lazy and just use the Mazzer for the TV as well as for espresso! 

= Michael,The key to doing this is = to identify your two grinding points and only put the amount you want to = grind for any brew in the hopper at grinding time.  This will leave = the space between the burrs empty between grinds and make adjustment = easier.      Pecan JIM = --Apple-Mail-1-695399395--

19) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
Thanks again to everybody for their advice.  I have made several lovely 
pots now using my Mazzer Mini.  Am regretting that I didn't do that 
sooner!  *sits back and sips his Nicaragua FTO Lozahoren (Dipilto) at 
City+* *grins*
Michael
L. Michael Fraley, MD

20) From: Brett Mason
Java Party at Doc's House
  (Michael, please provide directions)
On 1/31/07, L. Michael Fraley, MD  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

21) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
Find your way to Ohio.  Turn south, and drive until you hit Kentucky.  
Stop.  Your here!  Don't worry... I'll brew fresh when you get here.  
:)
Java Party at Doc's House
   (Michael, please provide directions)
On 1/31/07, L. Michael Fraley, MD  wrote:
<Snip>
L. Michael Fraley, MD


HomeRoast Digest