HomeRoast Digest


Topic: BM/HG - First try (38 msgs / 810 lines)
1) From: Carole Zatz
Thanks to Vicki for invaluable info on bread machine roasting!
I finally dug out the old bread machine I had in the basement –
doesn't everyone have two bread machines :) I have to remember to
thank my husband for not letting me throw out anything!
Anyway, I picked up a heat gun yesterday. I hoped it was good enough –
it gives out 4100btu and has two speeds (750F and 1000F), but is only
1200watts. Anyway, I pretested  my bread machine by letting it run
empty to make sure it would give me enough time to complete a roast.
After 25 minutes of running I figured it would work fine.
Brought everything outside, unplugged the bird bath heater – it's 30F
out this morning. Plugged in the heat gun, the bread machine, and
dumped in 300g of Panama Boquete. I thought this would be a good bean
to start with as I had just roasted it in my iR2 on the 28th and could
really make a good comparison.
The beans really hopped! This tossed virtually all the chaff into the
air before I had to stop the roast and they came out pretty clean. At
around 9:15 into the roast, I heard the first crack start popping. And
the chaff started glowing as it flew out of the machine. About 2
minutes past the start of the first crack the bread machine stopped!
It indicated that temperature had gotten too hot (even though I was in
the Dough setting which has no heat) and it refused to reset or
restart. Next time I'll try turning it off and back on around the 5-6
mark (as Vicki suggests in her article). I'm not sure this will help,
tho, if it thinks it's too hot for the Dough setting to run – but I'll
definitely try it. Drat, those smart machines. Luckily, I had brought
a wooden spoon with me so I just started mixing them by hand. I did
lose a little time on the heat when I reached for the spoon and I hope
it didn't stall. At one point I changed the heat gun to Low for a bit
but it slowed down so much that I think I should have kept it on High
for the entire time. It was windy and that didn't help.
I ended up stopping it at about 18 minutes – right after it started to
go brown at a quicker rate. I thought it was at Full City but I can
see now that it's a City+ –– I should have kept going more and made
sure it was Full City. I dumped them into a wire colander and did a
quick water spritz and tossed them around a bit. At 30F outside it
didn't long for them to cool to the touch.
So I'm hoping it didn't stall and bake. And I have to find out if this
bread machine will reset and keep running if I stop it earlier in the
process. And I have to do it later in the day so I can take advantage
of the single malt whisky or shot of Jameson's whiskey!
It was great fun!
I'll let the beans rest a day and probably try a pot of it tomorrow. I
was very happy with the results I got from my iR2 so this'll be
interesting. I hope my stopping it at City+ didn't totally wreck it.
So thank you Vicki for all your inspiration!

2) From: Vicki Smith
Some machines apparently have temp/heat sensors and others don't. I 
imagine that as you are not ever going to use the heat on the machine, 
you could reach into the guts, and disconnect the thermostat. A trip to 
the second hand store for a different model might be easier, unless you 
are comfy with that sort of thing.
The stop after 5 minutes part is not about heat, it is about running out 
of time.
I generally aim for  first crack between 8-9 minutes, and end the roast 
within 5 minutes of the end of 1st. That means I don't have to reset the 
timer. My guess is that a slightly more powerful heat gun than yours 
would get you there in about the same amount of time if that seems like 
something to aim for.
vicki
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: Kris McN
Hey Carole,
I had the exact same experience with the BM stopping when it got too hot,
even on the dough setting.  My husband took it apart and disconnected the
thermostat, so I haven't had this problem since.  He also ground down the
mixing paddle just a bit so that it wouldn't jam on a bean against the wall
of the chamber (which it was doing occasionally).  Both of those mods have
led to smooth roasting ever since.  We've joked about buying up the local
thrift store supply of $5 bread machines and selling them mod-ed like this
for $20.
Kris
On 1/31/07, Carole Zatz  wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: Carole Zatz
On 1/31/07, Kris McN  wrote:
<Snip>
ll
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
s
<Snip>
That doesn't sound too good. Maybe I'll take it apart and see if I can
do anything. Meanwhile, I'll check out the local thrift shops for a
more basic machine. ––Any tips for figuring out what the thermostat
looks like :)

5) From: Vicki Smith
I updated the FAQ to reflect the thermostat issue. Thanks. I guess I was 
lucky to get one of the machines that really didn't need any modding. I 
also roasted in a bunch of other brands that just did it without trouble 
when I was travelling, so I know they are out there.
v

6) From: Kris McN
When you take the cover off the body of the machine, there's a small (maybe
1'x1' rectangular device with 2 wires leading into it attached to the side
of the chamber that holds the mixing bowl.  He removed it from the chamber
and stuck it to the outside cover wall so it doesn't heat up and trip the
circuit.  It's pretty much the only thing attached to the side of the
chamber, so it's easy to identify.  When I get home I can probably take a
picture if you need it.
On 1/31/07, Carole Zatz  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: Vicki Smith
OK, I just put on my boots and trundled out to the garage (yes, it's one 
of those days here). My bread machine doesn't have anything even vaguely 
sensor like in the bread pan or its housing. I am wondering if this is 
generalizable? Look for a sensor, if it is there, you may have to pull 
or otherwise disable the thermostat, if there isn't anything sensorish 
showing in the housing, you're probably good to go.
Need more data :).
v
Kris McN wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Carole Zatz
On 1/31/07, Kris McN  wrote:
<Snip>
Thanks! I did take the bottom plate off and lifted the outside frame.
The insides of mine is still very well concealed. I did see a wire
bent in two (made a U) and where the bend is, it's screwed to the
chamber that holds the mixing bowl. The wire is brown and it's covered
in insulation. This I could unscrew from the chamber and it move away.
I don't know if this is it or not. Also, there are two blue wires
leading into the mixing bowl chamber. Where they lead is hidden behind
a hunk of sheet metal that surrounds the mixing bowl chamber. I don't
see how to get that sheet metal cover off. I could cut the two blue
wires, but that's about it. I don't which to try... I bet it's where
the blue wires go and I can't see in there. If there wasn't that sheet
metal cover ....
If you get an opportunity and could take a picture I would be so grateful.

9) From: Kris McN
Carole,
Oh, sure.  They all have to be different, don't they?  Yes, I'm pretty sure
the U-shaped one is the thermostat, based on your description.  There's a
little sensor underneath that insulation.  If you move it away, that'll
probably do the trick.  I guess a picture of mine wouldn't be much help
after all.
Kris McN
On 1/31/07, Carole Zatz  wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Carole Zatz
Well, I just popped over to my local thrift shop and found a cute
little DAK bread maker. Looks just like R2D2. I'm going to try that
next – it's much easier to move around (my other one is a huge
Panasonic. Plus it has a round bread pan instead of the rectangular
one in the Panasonic. Then tomorrow, I'll see about getting a stronger
heat gun.
Sometime I will test the other one though and see if pulling that wire
away disabled the thermostat. That would be good to know. The thrift
shop had two makers (one was just like the one I have with the
thermostat).
So I now own 3 bread makers :)
My 'good' one I mainly use for making jam and chutney – saves tons of
stirring and it never burns.
Thanks for your help!

11) From: Vicki Smith
I'd really appreciate any and all pictures of the thermostat stuff, if 
you would give me permission to post them on the web--with or without 
attribution--your choice.
vicki
Carole Zatz wrote:
  > Sometime I will test the other one though and see if pulling that wire
<Snip>

12) From: Kris McN
Sure, I'll send a picture once I get home from work (assuming my 2.5 yr old
hasn't hid the digital camera)
On 1/31/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>

13) From: Carole Zatz
On 1/31/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
Sure, as soon as I figure out that it really was the thermostat and
disabling it worked.

14) From: Carole Zatz
Second try:
First, I tried yesterday's roast and it had definitely stalled and
ended up baked. Tasted very bright and so-so. Drinkable but not great.
Oh well...
Second, the DAK I picked up yesterday has a nice hole in the bottom
under the mixing paddle. So that won't work and it'll have to go back
(they have 48 hr return period).
Third, I tried another roast this morning with the first bread maker
to see if what I moved away from the mixing bowl chamber was indeed
the thermostat. Well, it was a thermostat. The machine no longer
stopped because it thought it was too hot to continue running. So
that's good news. Unfortunately, at around 10 min into the roast it
thought it had done a good job of it and went into rest mode! There's
probably another thermostat somewhere. This machine is just too darn
smart! But my roast this time was much more successful. I didn't have
any more of the Panama so I roasted some of SM's Italian Espresso
Blend. This roasts to Vienna and I thought it'd be a good one to try.
The first crack started, one crack very tentatively at 6:45 into the
roast, and then strongly at around 8 - 9. So this was more like it. At
10:00 into the roast the bread maker decided to rest but I was ready
with the wooden spoon (need longer spoon) and it didn't stop for a
second. I kept the heat gun on High and it worked fine. Again, it was
30F outside and I think if it was warmer it could go to Low. At 11:30
it started second crack and I let it run about 30 seconds or so. My
timings are just estimates – I didn't write anything down at the time.
It looks like a very nice Vienna roast to me. I've compared it to the
photos at the SM web site. I don't see any oil drops on the beans and
they don't look super-shiney but they're not dull either. Based on the
second crack going I know they're past Full City+. (I wish I could see
examples of the various stages in person.) I quickly spritzed them
with water and took them inside and stuck them in the freezer for a
couple of minutes. They look and smell great!
Vicki, I'll get you a photo of the change I made ...

15) From: Vicki Smith
Yup, you have to have a good look around with the pan out--both looking 
for what might be a thermostat, and looking to see that the bread pan 
has a solid bottom. I know a machine almost identical to my Sunbeam was 
made by Oster. Also look to make sure that the pan/paddle is not Teflon 
lined. A wired brush drill attachment might make short work of Teflon on 
the paddle, but the pan would take some work.
v
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: raymanowen
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Pwo=

17) From: Vicki Smith
I know my bread machine pauses for about a few seconds every 30 seconds, 
but will run long enough to roast a whole lot of coffee on the bread 
machine.  I imagine that they need that pause to keep the motor from 
burning out, and the pause doesn't seem to matter at all in terms of the 
coffee roasting.
In fact, that pause is just long enough to take a good look at the 
roast--something that is hard to do when the beans are whirling around.
The longest roast I have ever had went 15 minutes, and the machine will 
knead for 20.
v
raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Carole Zatz
On 2/1/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>
K
<Snip>
I sure wish I could find one of those Oster/Sunbeams! I that what
you're going to use? The DAK I found wouldn't work because of the hole
in the bottom where the paddle attached to a gasket. The only thing
I've found used around here are the Panasonics and they've got these
rectangular pans that really toss out the beans. (Course that really
gets rid of the chaff!) Plus I've had to go in and remove the
thermocouple from the mixing pan chamber. Also, they've both moved
into the Rest stage at 10:00 minutes when full of beans (but not when
they're empty and I do a test run – then they run at least 25 min –
very irritating). Do you think that eliminating the Fth would solve
that or is it probably a circuit/programming situation? If I can't
eliminate that problem, I'll try stopping it at around 6:00 and
resetting it.
I hadn't thought of the heat issue with the motor. But I've had my KA
mixer stop on me when kneading too large a loaf. I like the idea of
taking off the bottom plate and maybe putting it on a grate. I think
I'll definitely need to get a more powerful heat gun.
So now my winter jacket smells just like roasted coffee – it could be wor=
se!

19) From: Vicki Smith
The folks on the coffeesnobs bulletin board (where some folks will swear 
they invented this roasting method) are generally using a device that 
holds the HG in place and are fixing it quite a bit further away from 
the beans. They are having trouble finding heat guns powerful enough to 
roast the coffee within the time on the dough cycles.
Now, you can speed up the roast a whole lot if the heat gun is very 
close to the beans, but then you have the risk of scorching the outside 
of the beans whilst the inside is underdone. I also don't think it is a 
good idea to point the HG at the same place in the bread pan all the 
time--the really hot surface in that one place seems to both increase 
the likelihood of scorching beans as they hit there, and possibly could 
increase the chances of the machine itself catching fire.
Using a 1500 watt gun, which is easy to find, you can achieve an 11 to 
12 minute FC roast easily with a HG distance of about 2 inches. This 
should be well within the parameters of the dough cycle of most machines 
designed to make 2 pounds of bread.
v
raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>

20) From: Vicki Smith
A new Sunbeam runs about $40. I think it works the same. I've used a 
Wellbilt and a Breville, both without making adjustments of any 
kind--I'm not sure about the model numbers.
v

21) From: Peter Zulkowski
Ray,
I have done hundreds of roasts with my bread machine, lots of them back 
to back even.
On my Pretty Good Roaster the shielding is removed and the bowl clamps 
to the top of the spindle above the motor.
When using it earlier on, I had to defeat the thermostat and fuse, but 
then the control panel would get so hot that it would start blinking and 
everything stopped!
Now... no control panel.. just a switch to turn the motor on.
Works fine.
I did leave the little blower motor in there, the one that is supposed 
to cool the bread. It now blows indirectly on the motor, merely by 
cutting the duct at an angle so it blows into the innards... spindle, 
belt, motor..
Cheers,
PeterZ
raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Peter Zulkowski
Carol,
I just tip the whole machine to dump the beans :)
PeterZ
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

23) From: Peter Zulkowski
When first roasting with a BM my machine would stop after 15 minutes 
also. Not really a problem because I usually finished before then.
If it did stop however, I just restarted it :)
The paddle hardly even stopped!
PeterZ
Vicki Smith wrote:
<Snip>

24) From: Carole Zatz
On 2/1/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
I've checked my local Craigslist and have a couple of queries out
regarding some WellBilts. They want an arm and a leg ($60)... if they
won't come down in price I might as well pick up something new. Unless
I can somehow beat my Panasonic into shape.
I did pick up the other Panasonic today at the thrift shop ($8) and I
must have tossed out 1/4 of the beans! Don't recommend a 2lb.
rectangular loaf pan Panasonic! It also stopped at 10:00 to Rest. My
original Panasonic is a 1lb square loaf version and it worked great
except for the stopping problem.
I didn't think finding a good bread machine to use was going to be the problem!

25) From: Vicki Smith
The Sunbeam on Amazon is $35. I can't swear it is the same as mine, but 
Sunbeam has manuals on their website, so that may give you the 
information you need.
v
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: Peter Zulkowski
The thrift stores in my town are usually loaded with bread machines. If 
you like I will look for you.
Please let me know off list. They are usually less than $10.00.
PeterZ
Vicki Smith wrote:
<Snip>

27) From: Carole Zatz
On 2/1/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
 I checked the manual about the sunbeam on Amazon (thanks for the tip
! – I did see that a couple of days ago but then got into this thrift
shopping and totally forgot about it) and it says that on 'Basic' the
kneading part runs for 10 minutes and then goes into Rest. It doesn't
mention the specs for the 'Dough' cycle. I bet it's the same. I may
order it just to see.
Someone local who I found on craigslist (she has the Welbilt) is going
to check the manual on that to see how long it will knead in 'Dough'.
At least I think with that one, I wouldn't have to fuss with the
thermostat. I may just go back and pick up the DAK again.
I'm trying to create a mental picture of me tipping over the
DAK/Welbilt and not making a real mess of it :)
Anyway, can't wait to try the Italian espresso tomorrow morning. I'll
be using my Brikka as I'm still saving for a Gaggia.

28) From: Vicki Smith
If not, then just stop and reset it before the end of the ten minutes. I 
was reading reviews on epinions and noticed that folks had bought them 
at discount chain stores, including the big "W".
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

29) From: Carole Zatz
On 2/1/07, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>
For some reason, they're just not being carried around here. I checked
(called) the local Best Buy, Circuit City, BJ's, Costco, Bed Bath and
Beyond, Target, various hardware-type stores and Walmart. They all had
the $60+ models.
I went ahead and ordered the Sunbeam from Amazon. Free shipping and
it'll probably be here tomorrow :)
My original Panasonic is just too small (only 1 pound loaf) and I'm a
little nervous about tipping the DAK to get the beans out.

30) From: Kris McN
Carole,
FYI - My BM is a Breadman and it will run for 18 minutes on the dough
setting before quitting (now that the thermostat is disconnected).  The
first 2 minutes are pulse-mixing, then it goes to continuous for another 16
(I got it for $5 at Goodwill).  There's no teflon, and it's got a good size
paddle, though shorter since it's been ground a bit.  My heatgun is an Ace
Hardware store brand, 1200w, with a 750' and 1000' settings (which sounds
like the one you're using).  I used to start with it at 750 and bump it up
to 1000 when 1st crack started, but since the weather got cold I start on
1000' and just move the nozzle closer to, or farther from, the bean mass to
regulate.  I usually hit 1st crack at ~9:30 and dump the beans anywhere from
11:30 - 13:30 depending on the degree of roast I'm going for.
Kris McN

31) From: Vicki Smith
Carole sent me pictures and a narrative about moving/removing the 
thermostat from the equation. I put them on a web page, and connected it 
from the FAQhttp://coffeecrone.com/roasting/thermostat.htmv

32) From: Carole Zatz
On 2/1/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>
I was thinking about this. When a BM is kneading (and it could do this
as long as 15 minutes when making bread) the load on the motor would
be much higher due to the 'denseness' of the dough. When it's stirring
beans, the beans are very lightweight and airy. Does this make it an
easier job for the motor? Or is it the extra heat that's supplied by
the heat gun that's an added problem? My 'good' BM actually has a jam
setting where it runs for 50 minutes, cooking and stiring the whole
time. Might this make an excellent roaster as it would even add a
little extra heat? ('course, it would probably think it overheated and
stop?!?)

33) From: Peter Zulkowski
So I am not really an expert on motors, torque, run time etc.
Just putting things in perspective is where I make the least flaws.
I took apart a stir crazy popper to put a switch in the heater, and saw 
the motor in it. (Very wimpy)
Saw how it keeps reversing when it got stuck on a bean, and went looking 
for a better device to stir under my convection oven.
Tried upside down electric mixers drilled through electric frying 
pans... etc.
Then I found a bread machine!
The motor weighs almost as much as a whole stir crazy!
And people love stir crazies!
So it spins a bit fast, the beans stay in the container, and they really 
get moved around and roast evenly.
So you think you should worry about your BM motor?
Just have a look at a stir crazy some day :)
PeterZ
my .02333333333, from here in LHC
Carole Zatz wrote:
<Snip>

34) From: stereoplegic
amen. that's why i ditched my SC.
peterz wrote:
<Snip>

35) From: Aaron
A bread machine motor can take a lot of abuse.  It puts out a lot of 
torque because of the job it has, that dough gets thick at times and it 
has to whip it into shape.  Every whUUR  whUUR is putting a lot of 
torque (read current and heat) through that motor.  Beans now, there is 
very little resistance in stirring them around so the electrical load 
will be a lot less on the motor, so it will run much cooler.
The bread does cook in this thing, I don't know what the temp is so am 
taking a shot and saying around 400 degrees maybe a bit more??  The 
motor is not running during the cook cycle but still IF it is going to 
get hot in the way the design is, it WILL feel that heat.  I don't think 
the motor will really feel all the heat because the only connecting 
joint is really just the drive arm sticking through.
If you hit it with a blower to heat it up, id think it might even be 
coolor because you are aiming the heat inside the mixing bowl and it has 
to get out to heat the unit up to eventually make it to the motor via 
other than conduction down the shaft means.. in other words the heat is 
aimed inside and has to work its way out of the  bowl and  into the rest 
of the unit..  Whereas if you cook bread, the heating element is on the 
outside of the bowl, and the heat has to get in so it's heating the unit 
itself up as well  as  the bowl.
Just my two coppers.
Aaron

36) From: raymanowen
Carole, some motors do odd things-
The DC blower motors were replaced with AC motors on a large pipe organ. Th=
e
385 hp DC motors required 3 phase AC induction motors rated at 600 hp to do
the job. It happened about 15 years ago to the Atlantic City Convention Hal=
l
Auditorium organ.
[OT: Donald Trump wants to tear it all down and build a new casino.-sigh-
the Golden Rule... The place is designated a National Historic Landmark, bu=
t
Gold Rules]
The point is, the DC motors could withstand a massive overload for a few
seconds while starting the large blowers, then cool down for hours at norma=
l
load. Like the starter motor in your car- crank for a few seconds then shut
off for several minutes. Normally, the starter does nothing at all, but put=
s
out Hellacious power for the few seconds it cranks.
Single phase (household power) AC induction motors can't start spinning by
themselves without a "kick start." A capacitor is sometimes used to
temporarily feed phase shifted AC power to a starting winding to start the
motor spinning. A centrifugal switch disconnects the capacitor when the
motor is spinning.
99.99% of the time, the starting winding is doing nothing but taking up
space that could be occupied by the "run" winding. Motors get paid to run,
not start, so the start winding is minimal for the application. Single phas=
e
motors for air compressor duty usually have slob starting windings and larg=
e
start capacitors.
Permanent Split Capacitor (PSC) motors take advantage of the increased
torque available by leaving a start/ run capacitor connected, and the
"extra" winding shares in providing a strong rotating magnetic field for th=
e
induction armature.
The Mazzer grinders have PSC motors, and warn not to run them more than 30
minutes out of each hour.
Q: What would you do with all the ground coffee? Egad. Give it away.
Cheee...
They actually run cooler under full load than with no load. For the fairly
short time of a roast, I doubt that the heat gun would cause any damage
unless you trained it on the plastic case. It would be bad news if the moto=
r
actually got hot enough to aid in the roast. Then what would you do with al=
l
the insulating goo that would drain from the wires? Bad scene
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
*Disclaimer:*
Statements contained herein have not been evaluated by the SCAA. This free
advice is worth every penny and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or
ameliorate any coffee condition but lack thereof. Always consult your
professional cupper to see if it's right for you…

37) From: raymanowen
You "took apart a Stir Crazy popper to put a switch in the heater, and saw
the motor in it. (Very wimpy)"
It's the same motor used in microwave ovens to turn the carousel, by the
way.
For the Stir Crazy 8, the motor is just large enough to move the stirring
arm with a full load of popcorn kernels. I bought the thing on an eBay
auction (long time ago), but skipped the Turbo Oven- let the shills have it,
and a stick of gum, too. Makes great Kettle Corn- need the Fiber.
I think it's too good a popper to sacrifice to stirring an overload of
coffee beans while using an overpriced convection oven. There's a better way
coming.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich

38) From: Peter Zulkowski
Ray :)
As usual thank you for the great explanation :)
My bread machine does indeed have a start capacitor, and it seems like 
it is always in the circuit (no centrifugal switch).
That being said, I have run it for well over an hour doing back to back 
to back roasts.
It keeps on running even when the temp outside is over 110F.
These things are way over built for coffee roasting.. or I got lucky 
with this $3.00 purchase.
Which brings up another point...
I have a
*/few/*
spares ;)
PeterZ
Very happy with his Welbuilt, here in LHC.
raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>


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