HomeRoast Digest


Topic: tamping optional (31 msgs / 800 lines)
1) From: Slinkster
I just went to great lengths to ensure I had proper weight for a double 
shot, smoothed the grounds perfectly in the filter, racked it into the 
group and pulled the shot.
Then realized I had forgotten to tamp.
Crema is a bit on the thin side and I won't call it espresso but it is 
certainly drinkable.  I guess good beans can make up for bad technique, eh?
<3 Moka Kadir at full French on 6 days rest

2) From: Andy Thomas
I'm not an espresso expert by any means, but it is my understanding that ta=
mping is, in fact, optional -- or at least dependent on your style and your=
 equipment.
----- Original Message ----
From: Slinkster 
To: homeroast 
Sent: Sunday,=
 March 4, 2007 8:32:14 AM
Subject: +tamping optional
I just went =
to great lengths to ensure I had proper weight for a double 
shot, smooth=
ed the grounds perfectly in the filter, racked it into the 
group and pul=
led the shot.
Then realized I had forgotten to tamp.
Crema is a b=
it on the thin side and I won't call it espresso but it is 
certainly dri=
nkable.  I guess good beans can make up for bad technique, eh?
<3 Moka=
 Kadir at full French on 6 days rest=

3) From: MichaelB
Hey Slinkster,
Here's one view. Tamping is sometimes described as a way to preserve the
distribution. So if you have an even distribution in the basket the tamp
will make it less likely for the distribution to be disturbed as the water
is pumped through the puck. So as long as your tamping is consistent shot to
shot, a light leveling tamp, a 60 pound stomp, or no tamp at all can be made
to work if you do it the same every time and adjust the grind accordingly.
You could improve your shots with a no tamp approach if you wanted, but you
might be more likely to get channeling and a messier grouphead with that
method. And worst of all, you couldn't aspire to own a Thor tamper, which
greatly increases espressomaking pleasure.
On 3/4/07, Slinkster  wrote:
<Snip>
--
MichaelB

4) From: Brett Mason
Drinking coffee is optional.
If for some rason you want to elicit the oils and nectar from the
bean, then anything less than a 30lb tamp will result in
under-extracted coffee...
Regards,
Brett
  RWA
On 3/4/07, Andy Thomas  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

5) From:
hi there slinkster:
sure tamping is optional just like anything else, clothes included...
the issue would be your water pressure through the grounds being totally all over the place and you would most likely never get the best from your fresh roasted beans for your beloved espresso.
optional sure, best use of time, beans and equipment no!
warmest regards,
ginny
thegster
homeroasters.org
forum
---- Slinkster  wrote: 
<Snip>

6) From: Brian Fowler
Untrue, you could purchase a La Marzocco Swift grinder and that only uses 8 
lbs of pressure.
Brian

7) From: Slinkster
I think some of you may have misunderstood:  I didn't intentionally omit 
the tamp - I plain forgot to do it.  The "shot" was halfway finished by 
the time I realized the omission but the end product was at least tolerable.
I don't intend to make this a standard method by any means, but I also 
won't panic, stop the shot, and slop hot water and grounds everywhere 
the next time it happens - which I *have* done in the past.
To say the grouphead was messy is an understatement - I finally used my 
turkey baster to blast water into the groove to clean it out :D

8) From: Angelo
There was a big discussion over on alt.coffee about tamping vs. 
non-tamping. Non-tamping isn't exactly what it sounds like. It 
generally means not tamping with a tamper, but using the pressure of 
the portafilter against the grouphead. I've tried it and it's 
possible to get decent (and better) shots. I also use semi-pods so my 
shower screen stays pretty clean through it all...
I prefer to tamp with a tamper..
A+
<Snip>

9) From: Andy Thomas
I disagree. I don't know how 30lb came to be considered the norm, but many =
baristas tamp only enough to level the coffee in the basket. Italian barist=
as typically use little or no tamp -- or so I've been told.  Some people ta=
mp up to 50 lb. The grind can be adjusted to the tamp pressure. The size of=
 the basket is also a factor -- 16 grams (or whatever you use) untamped tak=
es up more space and may not fit in the basket.
Drinking coffee is opt=
ional? You could lose CSA points for saying stuff like that around here :-)=
----- Original Message ----
From: Brett Mason =
To: homeroast
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2007 10:03:=
09 AM
Subject: Re: +tamping optional
Drinking coffee is optional.=
If for some rason you want to elicit the oils and nectar from the
b=
ean, then anything less than a 30lb tamp will result in
under-extracted c=
offee...
Regards,
Brett
  RWA
On 3/4/07, Andy Thomas  wrote:
> I'm not an espresso expert by any means, but it is m=
y understanding that tamping is, in fact, optional -- or at least dependent=
 on your style and your equipment.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> =
From: Slinkster 
> To: homeroast 
> Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:32:14 AM
> Subject: +tam=
ping optional
>
>
> I just went to great lengths to ensure I had prop=
er weight for a double
> shot, smoothed the grounds perfectly in the filt=
er, racked it into the
> group and pulled the shot.
>
> Then realized=
 I had forgotten to tamp.
>
> Crema is a bit on the thin side and I won=
't call it espresso but it is
> certainly drinkable.  I guess good beans =
can make up for bad technique, eh?
>
> <3 Moka Kadir at full French on =
6 days rest
>
> homeroa=
st mailing list
>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast=> To change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations, unsv=
bscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings=>
>
>
>=
> Get your own web address.
> Have a HUGE ye=
ar through Yahoo! Small Business.
>http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domain=s/?p=BESTDEAL
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eroast mailing list
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> To change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations, =
unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettin=gs
>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your=">http://homeroast.freeservers.com=homeroast mailing list=http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your=
 personal list settings (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to htt=
p://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings==
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TV dinner still cooling? 
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.=http://tv.yahoo.com/

10) From: Eddie Dove
"Untrue, you could purchase a La Marzocco Swift grinder and that only uses 8
lbs of pressure."
Ah, but that was a redesign ... if I remember correctly.  It started with 30
pounds, but then it couldn't pull the shot.  The reason they went with 8
pounds of tamping pressure is because it is layered ... coffee, 8 pound
tamp, coffee, 8 pound tamp ... which gives about the same "resistance" as a
single 30 pound tamp.  When one manually fills a portafilter basket and
tamps at the top with 30 pounds, that compression is not the same /
consistent all the way to the bottom of the basket.
Eddie
-- 
Docendo Discimus
My Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 3/4/07, Brian Fowler  wrote:">http://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/On 3/4/07, Brian Fowler  wrote:
<Snip>

11) From: Brian Fowler
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
correctomundo............I was going for technicallities and technically =
it isn't 30 lbs of pressure.  Saying always or never usually bites you =
in the but I was just trying to facilitate that.
Brian

12) From:
I want to know how many have a gauge on their hand/wrist/fingers/into portafilter that tells them what the sam hell 30 pounds of pressure is when they are pushing coffee grounds!!??
educated guess is all... 
you think it is 30 pounds great, it most likely is 10/15 pounds or it could be 50; except for the guys who press 85 between their middle finger and thumb.
and the Swift only uses 8 pounds, gotta gauge on that?
I bet most roasters do not know what 30 pounds of pressure into a portafilter is; that said it is most likely what feels FIRM.
ginny
---- Brian Fowler  wrote: 
<Snip>

13) From: Brett Mason
Yep that's it!
Like everything else about roasting - I get it down with a scale - a
couple times at least.  Then after a while, you back off and do what
feels a lot like when you measured that....  Soon it will be something
close, and always good...
30ish pounds (+-30)
Brett
  RWA
On 3/4/07, pchforever  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

14) From: Leo Zick
Its easy to gauge, and you can get a feel for it on a bathroom scale.
Its like carrying around a 5lb dumbbell, sooner or later, you get a feel =
for what anything that’s 5lbs feels like.

15) From: Leo Zick
Not true.
Try a super fine grind, soft tamp will work just perfectly..

16) From: Brett Mason
Glad you posted...  Seems everyone is an expert!
On 3/4/07, Slinkster  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

17) From: Eddie Dove
And you did so exceedingly well!
Eddie
On 3/4/07, Brian Fowler  wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Brett Mason
sorry, clicked send too early....
Seems everyone is an expert.  Well in this sport, everyone is - and
you can tamp or mot tamp to your heart's delight...  But there are a
lot of proven experts out here, and common approach is a solid tamp to
ensure a great extraction...
Brew it as you like it!
Brett
  RWA
On 3/4/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

19) From: Les
Most good espresso technique that forgoes the tamping is a bit of a
misnomer.  The tamp is done by the shower screen by over filling the
basket.  I spent some time with a non tamper who pulled good shots.  What
was discovered was when he locked the PF he was getting about a 30 pound
squeeze from the shower screen.  It was playing havec on his machine however
because when the 3 way valve kicked in, it was sucking coffee grounds into
his grouphead. He had to back flush about every other shot to keep things
going. Not a little back flush but a big one.  When we put a crotchless PF
on his machine, it was channeling all over the place.  It was like there
were two shower heads on the machine!  You tamp for puck integrity.
Les
On 3/4/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

20) From: Angelo
That problem is easily solved with semi-pods - round disks cut from 
filter paper and placed on TOP of the grounds... The grounds never 
touch the screen...I would say (though I have no "proof") that it 
tends to help in the dispersion of the water..
A
Snip...
It was playing havec on his machine however because when the 3 way 
valve kicked in, it was sucking coffee grounds into his grouphead. He 
had to back flush about every other shot to keep things going. Not a 
little back flush but a big one.  When we put a crotchless PF on his 
machine, it was channeling all over the place.  It was like there 
were two shower heads on the machine!  You tamp for puck integrity.
<Snip>

21) From: Slinkster
Angelo wrote:
<Snip>
How does the little filter paper disc affect the mechanics of pulling 
the shot (delivery time, I guess)?  The flavor of the end result?  Do 
you buy the little discs of filter paper pre-cut somewhere (where?) or 
make your own?  If you make your own what do you use as a template?  Do 
you rinse and reuse the discs a few times for economy?  Aren't I just 
full of questions today?

22) From: Leo Zick
woah now. filters on TOP of the puck?
i think i have the same questions as you. id think you would get a  
more bitter shot. i may have to try.
Quoting Slinkster :
<Snip>

23) From: Jeff Oien
Slinkster wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
I used to do this with my Krups Novo (a real pump machine) and it seemed 
to help disperse the water better. It doesn't affect the taste because 
like Angelo said it's above the grounds, not below like a drip machine. 
I used to cut them out of regular #4 paper filters. I used one that was 
cut to the right size as a "template" and would put that over a bunch of 
filters, cut them out and this gave me enough for at least a couple of 
weeks. You can get at least a couple circles out of a #4 filter.
I think I got this idea from Angelo so thanks to him for it.
JeffO

24) From:
<Snip>
you buy the little discs of filter paper pre-cut somewhere (where?) or 
make your own? <<<
you just sit in front of your TV at night, sewing shears in hand and cut little round shapes. The size really makes no difference. It is, after all, going on top of the grounds!!!
What we need is a mega, mega, mega filter, a one size fits all portafilters,  on top of the grounds so nothing is left but the water after extraction.
There is a market here for a multi size, ballast like device to put in your portafilter, yes!
The more you blow into the little hole in the side, the more (better) pressure on the grounds thus a remarkable improvement in taste.
ginny
ginny
---- Slinkster  wrote: 
<Snip>

25) From: Michael Mccandless
I've been using AeroPress filters.
Keeps the puck from pitting by the water shower.
McSparky
On 3/5/07, Jeff Oien  wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: Angelo
1. No effect on the time, at least, not that I can notice.
2. Same as without...
3. Since I have machines with various sized 
portafilters, I make my own. For the Silvia 
basket (58mm) you could use the filters that are 
sold for the Aeropress. They are about 1¢ apiece 
and are reusable..These can also be made from 
various polyester cloths. One of my favorites is 
baby wipes... That's another whole thread...
As to a template,  many things can be used: 
bottle caps, dowels, bottoms of glasses.. You 
just have to find something that fits in your PF, 
draw around it with a pencil and then cut the circle...
<Snip>

27) From: Angelo
Leo,
Why do you think it would be more bitter??
A+
<Snip>

28) From: Leo Zick
A+?
I'd rate the shot closer to a C. :p
I just tried it with an aeropress filter.  As far as pulling the shot, no
difference.  I deliberately didnt even the distribution and took some pics
after the shot.  You can see some pitting in the puck. You can also see in
the vid that it's a bit uneven.  So the paper didn't seem to do much in the
way forcing a more even extraction.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoxWmRfagiwI wont get into the time it would take to cut the edges off the aeropress">http://www.o2resources.com/pics/paper%20over%20coffee%20before.JPGhttp://www.o2resources.com/pics/paper%20over%20coffee%20after.JPGhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoxWmRfagiwI wont get into the time it would take to cut the edges off the aeropress
filters if you decide to do this for a living!
As far as taste, it was actually more bright/acidic. Got me on that one. I
assumed it would be more bitter because the water isn't creating a column
directly across the top of the puck.
Sorry for the crappy camera vid. One day ill get a vid cam..
Anyone else ever try this? ive never heard of it being done, so at least it
was interesting..

29) From: Andy Thomas
I use my tamper as a template -- trace around it with a pencil and cut thro=
ugh four layers with scissors. That way they come out the right size. 
=
----- Original Message ----
From: "pchforever" 
To: homeroast
Cc: Slinkster 
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2007 1:46:47 PM
Subject: Re: +tamping opt=
ional
>>>Do 
you buy the little discs of filter paper pre-cut som=
ewhere (where?) or 
make your own? <<<
you just sit in front of your=
 TV at night, sewing shears in hand and cut little round shapes. The size r=
eally makes no difference. It is, after all, going on top of the grounds!!!=
What we need is a mega, mega, mega filter, a one size fits all portaf=
ilters,  on top of the grounds so nothing is left but the water after extra=
ction.
There is a market here for a multi size, ballast like device to=
 put in your portafilter, yes!
The more you blow into the little hole in =
the side, the more (better) pressure on the grounds thus a remarkable impro=
vement in taste.
ginny
ginny
---- Slinkster  wrote: 
> Angelo wrote:
> > That problem is easily solved with=
 semi-pods - round disks cut from 
> > filter paper and placed on TOP of =
the grounds... The grounds never touch 
> > the screen...I would say (tho=
ugh I have no "proof") that it tends to 
> > help in the dispersion of th=
e water..
> 
> How does the little filter paper disc affect the mechani=
cs of pulling 
> the shot (delivery time, I guess)?  The flavor of the en=
d result?  Do 
> you buy the little discs of filter paper pre-cut somewhe=
re (where?) or 
> make your own?  If you make your own what do you use as=
 a template?  Do 
> you rinse and reuse the discs a few times for economy=
?  Aren't I just 
> full of questions today?
>=
> homeroast mailing list
>http://lists.sweetma=rias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast
> To change your personal list settin=
gs (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmarias.com/m=aillistinfo.html#personalsettings=

30) From: Brian Kamnetz
Leo,
Thanks for posting the pics and vid. Can you tell me what kind of espresso
machine that is?
Thanks,
brian
On 3/5/07, Leo Zick  wrote:
<Snip>

31) From: Leo Zick
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
its a giotto premium. sorry the cam quality sucks. sounds would help too.
 
anyone else try?  
From: Brian Kamnetz [mailto:bkamnetz] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:15 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +tamping optional
Leo,
Thanks for posting the pics and vid. Can you tell me what kind of espresso
machine that is?
Thanks,
brian
On 3/5/07, Leo Zick  wrote: 
A+?
I'd rate the shot closer to a C. :p 
I just tried it with an aeropress filter.  As far as pulling the shot, no
difference.  I deliberately didnt even the distribution and took some pics
after the shot.  You can see some pitting in the puck. You can also see in 
the vid that it's a bit uneven.  So the paper didn't seem to do much in the
way forcing a more even extraction.http://www.o2resources.com/pics/paper%20over%20coffee%20after.JPGhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoxWmRfagiw">http://www.o2resources.com/pics/paper%20over%20coffee%20before.JPG http://www.o2resources.com/pics/paper%20over%20coffee%20after.JPGhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoxWmRfagiw
 
I wont get into the time it would take to cut the edges off the aeropress
filters if you decide to do this for a living!
As far as taste, it was actually more bright/acidic. Got me on that one. I
assumed it would be more bitter because the water isn't creating a column
directly across the top of the puck.
Sorry for the crappy camera vid. One day ill get a vid cam..
Anyone else ever try this? ive never heard of it being done, so at least it 
was interesting..


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