HomeRoast Digest


Topic: technical question: technivorms vs cheap-o drip (27 msgs / 1062 lines)
1) From: Kevin
Can anyone shed some light on this?  I purchased a TV moccamaster CD which
is in route and I have yet to test it out.
I was of the impression that the general consensus was generic Mr. Koffee
type machines do not get hot enough to properly brew coffee and that the hot
water is pumped to the top and dropped on the grinds.  The following link
explains how cheap-o's work:http://www.howstuffworks.com/coffee-maker.htmDrip coffee makers boil water via a resister and force the water up through
a vertical tube onto the grinds with the help of a one-way valve (so heated
water does not re-enter the source reservoir).   Water boils at 212F at sea
level, how does the water drop to 185F when prior to reaching the grinds?
Heat can be lost via the tube the hot water has to travel through to get to
the grinds but once the tube is heated by the initial water flow this loss
should be negligible.  The tube length is less than 12" typically, can the
water drop 27F in the short period of time it spends in that tube?
Additionally, if Watts=Amps x Volts:
            Technivorm:
            1475 W = 13 amps x V
             V = 113.46 Volts  (standard  household voltage 105V - 122V in
the US)
            cheap-o (my house voltage measured is 122V)
            from the bottom of my West Bend 4cup drip: 600 W, 60Hz, 120V)
            600 W = Amps x 120V (measured)
            Amps = 5
The West Bend coffee pot draws 5 amps and boils the water and uses the force
of the steam generated from the boiling process to force the heated water up
the tube onto the grinds.  This is a full 7amps less than the TV draws
(souce: SM's review) but it manages to boil water none the less.
I do not doubt the judgment or experience of those on the list or SM's
review.  In fact, I trust it so much that I dropped $200 on a Technivorm
moccamaster CD this week.  I'm just tyring to understand how it makes a
better cup and keeps the water hot prior to hitting the grinds along with
where the heat is lost on conventional drip brewers.  Any thoughts?
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

2) From: Michael Mccandless
Most likely water is boiling around the heating element, but the test is
nowhere neat boiling - making air bubbles & forcing less heated water out.
The TV boils water in a small cavity (assumed) & as it boils, it is forced
up the tube.
McSparky
On 4/8/07, Kevin  wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: Kevin
Michael,
I don't see the difference.  Cheap-o's  boil water in an aluminum tube with
an embedded heating element (ref the howstuffworks.com link).  The volume in
the tube is very small relative to the reservoir.  If they're both using
boiling water to transport the heated water to the grinds, where is the
temperature drop occurring on the typical drip brewers?
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

4) From: Michael Mccandless
I haven't taken the TV apart, but it appears that a small amount of water is
boiled in a smaller compartment & pushed up the tube at boiling temp,
cooling a little as it rises.
Cheap-o heats ALL the water & pushes hot (not boiling) water up as air
expands.
Water will boil at the heating element at some point, but the water at the
top lof the tank may be 160 - 180.
Water in the TV tank stays cold until entering the smaller cavity.
McSparky
On 4/8/07, Kevin  wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
Hey Kevin,
I am not an expert, but here is my take on it.  In the cheapie ones, 
the tube that carries the hot water up, runs through the cold water in =
the reservoir.  Via a countercurrent mechanism, the water is cooled.  
In the TV, the reservoir is already up high, so there is less distance =
for the boiling water to go, and it looks to me like the tube the water =
travels through is double walled, so will provide some insulation.
Michael
On Apr 8, 2007, at 2:13 PM, Kevin wrote:
Can anyone shed some light on this?  I purchased a TV moccamaster CD =
which is in route and I have yet to test it out. 
I was of the impression that the general consensus was generic Mr. 
Koffee type machines do not get hot enough to properly brew coffee and =
that the hot water is pumped to the top and dropped on the grinds.  =
The 
following link explains how cheap-o's work:http://www.howstuffworks.com/coffee-maker.htmDrip coffee makers boil water via a resister and force the water up 
through a vertical tube onto the grinds with the help of a one-way 
valve (so heated water does not re-enter the source reservoir).   =
Water 
boils at 212F at sea level, how does the water drop to 185F when prior =
to reaching the grinds?  Heat can be lost via the tube the hot water =
has to travel through to get to the grinds but once the tube is heated =
by the initial water flow this loss should be negligible.  The tube 
length is less than 12" typically, can the water drop 27F in the short =
period of time it spends in that tube? 
Additionally, if Watts=Amps x Volts:
            Technivorm:
            1475 W = 13 amps x V
             V = 113.46 Volts  (standard  =
household voltage 105V - 122V 
in the US)
            cheap-o (my house voltage measured is =
122V)
            from the bottom of my West Bend 4cup drip: 600 =
W, 60Hz, 
120V)
            600 W = Amps x 120V (measured)
            Amps = 5
The West Bend coffee pot draws 5 amps and boils the water and uses the =
force of the steam generated from the boiling process to force the 
heated water up the tube onto the grinds.  This is a full 7amps less =
than the TV draws (souce: SM's review) but it manages to boil water 
none the less.
I do not doubt the judgment or experience of those on the list or SM's =
review.  In fact, I trust it so much that I dropped $200 on a 
Technivorm moccamaster CD this week.  I'm just tyring to understand =
how 
it makes a better cup and keeps the water hot prior to hitting the 
grinds along with where the heat is lost on conventional drip brewers.  =
Any thoughts?
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
L. Michael Fraley, MD=

6) From: Kevin
Michael,
That argument (pardon the pun) holds water.  I overlooked the fact that the
heated water re-traversed the cold water reservoir.  Considering the
specific heat of water and the distance involved, that could well explain
how the temperature drop in a cheap-o drip brewer could reach 27F
(212F-185F) (especially if refrigerated Brita water or Bottled water is used
for the brew).  I overlooked the fact that the heated water had to travel
through the non-heated water in a single-walled plastic tube.
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

7) From: raymanowen
It sure let the wind out of my sails when I measured the temperature of the
heated brew water exiting the one-eyed distribution arm in the TV, and it
was 200° F on the button.
The coffee grounds, Gold mesh filter and cone basket started off the brew
cycle about 125° cooler. I stuck a thermocouple probe right into the brew=
ing
coffee about 2cups into the brewing cycle.
Clear through the end of the cycle, I was unable to find a higher
temperature than 187° F at any location in the basket.
200° out the arm, but radiation and convection steal heat away. If there
were no radiation and no convection, the TV would always feel cold when
brewing. It doesn't seem cold to me, and the brew is fabulous since I added
a couple of steps to the process. More coming, including a hot water jacket
for the brew basket- new life for an old percolator.
The basket may become a steam kettle and it may take more than one electric
circuit to accomplish. I'd  really like to >brew< at 200° and see what
difference that makes. Water can't even exist here at 202° F, so I might
have to devote another microwave to Jury rigging.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
It's all in the grinder.

8) From: Michael Mccandless
If you wanted to go way overboard, you could build a pressure chamber for
the TV.
Adjust the temp by adjusting the pressure.
McSparky
On 4/8/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>
d
<Snip>
ewing
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
ed
<Snip>
et
<Snip>
see
<Snip>

9) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
It seemed reasonable to me too.  :-)
Michael
On Apr 8, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Kevin wrote:
Michael,
 
That argument (pardon the pun) holds water.  I overlooked the fact =
that 
the heated water re-traversed the cold water reservoir.  Considering =
the specific heat of water and the distance involved, that could well 
explain how the temperature drop in a cheap-o drip brewer could reach 
27F (212F-185F) (especially if refrigerated Brita water or Bottled 
water is used for the brew).  I overlooked the fact that the heated 
water had to travel through the non-heated water in a single-walled 
plastic tube. 
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
L. Michael Fraley, MD=

10) From: raymanowen
"If you wanted to go way overboard,,,"
Actually, no. I just want to tinker and get the best possible cup of coffee
with equipment I have at hand or can modify without much more than bending,
cutting, riveting and brazing.
"...build a pressure chamber for the TV. Adjust the temp by adjusting the
pressure."
Already exists, called "Espresso maker."
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Gentlemen, Start your Grinders!

11) From: Kevin
RayO,
what mods did you make to the TV?
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

12) From: Douglas Strait
Kevin,
Here is some cut n paste from an old thread related to your subject. 
It was a thread I started in Jan 06 on hacking the Mr Coffee style 
makers for those of us than cannot afford Technivorm class stuff. You 
can read the thread in it's entirety in the archives though it mostly 
veered OT onto the subject of the safety of hot tap water. Here are a 
couple of the relevant on topic posts:
Thomas Pfau wrote:
<Snip>
Thomas, I'm cheap!
I do most of my brewing in an old Mr Coffee auto drip. I found that if
the water I put into the reservoir is at least 120F it will get the
water coming out of the showerhead up into the 195F+  range. My hot
tap water is set at 140F so I just use that. Also the design of my
machine causes the first oz or two of water coming out of the
showerhead to be relatively cool. I compensate for this by adding an
extra 6 oz to the reservoir and letting that run though before sliding
the filter basket in place. I don't know if your particular machine is
set up to do this. Be aware that starting with hot water will shorten
the brew cycle. If you are making 14oz or less at a time you can use
the drip stop feature [also referred to as pause n serve] to good
advantage. Remove the carafe from the machine at the same time you
slide the filter basket in place. Return the carafe [having emptied
out the sacrificial 6 oz of water] at about 1 minute before your total
desired extraction time. Because this technique results in the filter
being filled to near over flowing, it there will be some accumulation
of splashed grounds on the underside of the showerhead. Clean this
location regularly.
Doug

13) From: derbyrm
While we're discussing Tecnivorms, I have a question.
Tom suggests in his cheat sheet that one use the center, half-open position 
for the filter basket drain valve, presumably to prolong the brewing time. 
Each time I've tried this, the filter basket overflows and I have a 
(moderate) mess to clean up and grounds in the carafe.
Is my grind wrong?
Do I have a defective unit?
Is there some adjustment that I can make to the valve?
Roger  (using a relatively new MoccaMaster)
derbyrmhttp://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

14) From: Rich M
Roger-
If I had my druthers about me (what are druthers anyway?), I'd say  
you are grinding too fine. I actually let my TV brew in the closed  
position for about 30 seconds and then open up half-way. If not a  
grinding problem, check to make sure nothing is partially blocking  
the drip hole in the basket. If so, a good cleaning with a brush may  
open thing up.
Rich M
On Apr 9, 2007, at 9:17 AM, derbyrm wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Floyd Lozano
I've had this problem too, and I have it with most drip brewing methods.  I
guess I have to ease way back on the grind - yesterday I did a +30 on a
Rocky with Mexican decaf and it stopped the works cold - had to stop the
brew to keep from overflowing.  Stirring helps only slightly.  I even picked
up the entire paper filter by the edges, and very little was dribbling out.
I don't think it's fines clogging the paper as I just put new burrs in 2
days ago.  It's gotta just be too fine on the whole.  I think the more
coffee you are brewing, the coarser you have to go to keep the water flowing
- at least this has been my experience.  I don't have this problem when
brewing only 2 or 3 cups.
-F
On 4/9/07, Rich M  wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: derbyrm
I'll try a coarser grind, but I'druther get the extraction associated with a 
fine grind.
Roger
derbyrmhttp://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

17) From: Wick Griffith
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Chaff will plug up filter paper even faster than extremely finely ground
coffee. Be shore you blowing all the chaff out when you cool you roasted
coffee.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Floyd Lozano
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 11:20 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +technical question: technivorms vs cheap-o drip
I've had this problem too, and I have it with most drip brewing methods.  I
guess I have to ease way back on the grind - yesterday I did a +30 on a
Rocky with Mexican decaf and it stopped the works cold - had to stop the
brew to keep from overflowing.  Stirring helps only slightly.  I even picked
up the entire paper filter by the edges, and very little was dribbling out.
I don't think it's fines clogging the paper as I just put new burrs in 2
days ago.  It's gotta just be too fine on the whole.  I think the more
coffee you are brewing, the coarser you have to go to keep the water flowing
- at least this has been my experience.  I don't have this problem when
brewing only 2 or 3 cups. 
-F

18) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-100-265776940
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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What I do is keep the basket drain valve slide in the CLOSED position  
till about a cupful of water has left the tank--and then I remove the  
lid from the basket and stir the grounds as the basket fills--just as  
the basket approaches being full (and half the water is gone from the  
tank--the waterline is down to "2"), I move the slide to the center  
half-open position and replace the basket lid.  The carafe fills  
nicely, the basket does not overflow, and the coffee is strong  
enough. Once the tank is empty, I then move the slide to the top  
fully-open position to accelerate carafe-filling (the coffee is  
nicely extracted by now).   I use a Swissgold filter with a slightly  
finer grind than I'd use for paper cones (though I still get some  
sediment in the cup I don't care).  Perhaps you are using too fine a  
grind (inhibiting dripping through the filter into the basket) or too  
coarse (allowing enough sediment through to clog the valve). Try  
moving the slide to fully-open sooner, or try varying your grind.
  I once found when I kept the slide closed too long, the steeping  
grounds overflowed the top of the filter into the basket, and there  
was just enough sediment to clog the valve opening.   In that case, I  
stopped the flow of water from the tank by moving the carafe away  
from the white button, and removed the entire basket assembly and put  
it into a large bowl. I removed the lid and use a fork to lift the  
filter by its swiveling bail handle, still holding it over the bowl;  
I then opened the valve all the way, dumped out the ounce or so of  
coffee and grounds still in the basket and rinsed it; then closed the  
valve on the now-empty basket, replaced the filter and lid and put it  
back on the machine, and poured the filtered coffee from the bowl  
into the carafe. Then I put the carafe back up against the white  
button and opened the valve all the way. (Of course, I wiped the  
countertop). I sacrificed about half a cup of brew, and the temp of  
the final product was a tad lower than ideal; but it was still  
drinkable (and nukable later on).
On Apr 9, 2007, at 9:17 AM, derbyrm wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-100-265776940
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
What I do is keep the basket =
drain valve slide in the CLOSED position till about a cupful of water =
has left the tank--and then I remove the lid from the basket and stir =
the grounds as the basket fills--just as the basket approaches being =
full (and half the water is gone from the tank--the waterline is down to =
"2"), I move the slide to the center half-open position and replace the =
basket lid.  The carafe fills nicely, the basket does not overflow, =
and the coffee is strong enough. Once the tank is empty, I then move the =
slide to the top fully-open position to accelerate carafe-filling (the =
coffee is nicely extracted by now).   I use a Swissgold filter with =
a slightly finer grind than I'd use for paper cones (though I still get =
some sediment in the cup I don't care).  Perhaps you are using too =
fine a grind (inhibiting dripping through the filter into the basket) or =
too coarse (allowing enough sediment through to clog the valve). Try =
moving the slide to fully-open sooner, or try varying your =
grind. 
 I once = found when I kept the slide closed too long, the steeping grounds = overflowed the top of the filter into the basket, and there was just = enough sediment to clog the valve opening.   In that case, I stopped = the flow of water from the tank by moving the carafe away from the white = button, and removed the entire basket assembly and put it into a large = bowl. I removed the lid and use a fork to lift the filter by its = swiveling bail handle, still holding it over the bowl; I then opened the = valve all the way, dumped out the ounce or so of coffee and grounds = still in the basket and rinsed it; then closed the valve on the = now-empty basket, replaced the filter and lid and put it back on the = machine, and poured the filtered coffee from the bowl into the carafe. = Then I put the carafe back up against the white button and opened the = valve all the way. (Of course, I wiped the countertop). I sacrificed = about half a cup of brew, and the temp of the final product was a tad = lower than ideal; but it was still drinkable (and nukable later = on). On Apr 9, 2007, at 9:17 AM, derbyrm wrote:
While we're discussing Tecnivorms, I have a = question. Tom suggests in his cheat sheet that one use the = center, half-open position for the filter basket drain valve, presumably = to prolong the brewing time. Each time I've tried this, the filter = basket overflows and I have a (moderate) mess to clean up and grounds in = the carafe. Is my grind wrong? Do I have a = defective unit? Is there some adjustment that I can make to the = valve? Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-100-265776940--

19) From: Wes Tyler
Roger..try a coarser grind. You may have to add a little more coffee but it tastes better to me. The filter was the problem I had with the TV..tried both brown and white..coarser grind made it run without clogging and made the cup sweeter.
Wes
----- Original Message ----
From: derbyrm 
To: homeroast
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2007 11:43:32 AM
Subject: Re: +technical question: technivorms vs cheap-o drip
I'll try a coarser grind, but I'druther get the extraction associated with a 
fine grind.
Roger
derbyrmhttp://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

20) From: Thomas Pfau
Kevin wrote:
<Snip>
I believe the last time this came up, the consensus was that there's too 
much water in the pipes that isn't getting heated.  Water seeks its own 
level.  Therefore, the water flows from the reservoir into the tube, 
past the heating element, and up the tube on the way to the coffee 
basket until it reaches the level of the water in the reservoir.  I 
checked my old unit out and the reservoir is mounted about two inches 
above the heating element.  That means two inches + the depth of the 
reservoir (probably another 4-5 inches) of water in the tube that is not 
subject to the heating element.
Once the water in the heated part of the tube reaches boiling, it pushes 
the unheated water beyond the heating element into the basket.  The 
boiling water mixes with this unheated water and the result is a lower 
than required water temperature reaching the basket.  Now the hose 
refills from the reservoir and the water gets heated a bit as it heads 
through the tube.  The next shot of water into the basket will be a 
little bit hotter but every time too much water gets past the heater, 
stays cool and ends up mixing with the boiling water.
It would probably help if the reservoir were mounted lower and was 
spread out more laterally.  A tall reservoir means too high a water 
level in the tube that isn't exposed to the heater.
-- 
tom_p
pfau --http://nbpfaus.net/~pfau/

21) From: L. Michael Fraley, MD
It did that to me with my old KitchenAid grinder... I was getting fines.
Michael
On Apr 9, 2007, at 10:17 AM, derbyrm wrote:
While we're discussing Tecnivorms, I have a question.
Tom suggests in his cheat sheet that one use the center, half-open 
position for the filter basket drain valve, presumably to prolong the 
brewing time. Each time I've tried this, the filter basket overflows 
and I have a (moderate) mess to clean up and grounds in the carafe.
Is my grind wrong?
Do I have a defective unit?
Is there some adjustment that I can make to the valve?
Roger  (using a relatively new MoccaMaster)
derbyrmhttp://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

22) From: Rob Stewart
I find it more apt to occur when more than just a few swipes of stirring is 
used and Filtropa bleached filters are more prone than non bleached or 
Melitta filters.
Rob

23) From: stereoplegic
on behalf of those of us who have yet to/are still trying to force 
ourselves into the habit of searching the archives: thanks for a great, 
very informative (re)post.
dougstrait wrote:
<Snip>

24) From: raymanowen
"RayO, what mods did you make to the TV?"
At this point, I'm just trying to maximize its [KB-741] performance. I boil
the basket and filter (200°F here), grind the flash-frozen beans pretty
coarse (65/100, 0=dust) into the filter.
I pour 8oz of boiling water directly into the grounds in the basket with th=
e
valve closed at the bottom. The bloom is vigorous and nearly fills the 18oz
basket to the overflow port. I turn on the TV after 1minute and swing the
outlet arm to the rear of the basket. (The reservoir cover is slotted to
allow for that exact position)
When the brewer starts perking, I rotate the basket so the water stream hit=
s
all around the bloom. I center the arm and open the valve about the time th=
e
basket is full of coffee, not bloom.
The aroma and bouquet are just stupendous through all of this. The cup (16o=
z
Captain Morgan stein) tastes even better. What colossal flavor.
Incredibly, the Panama Berlina beans have been in the pantry almost two
years, in the same plastic bag as received. Roasted 25 Mar 07 to FC+, all
the beans were showing a sheen. 15days post roast, sealed in a fruit jar. I
had my doubts, but what an aroma puff when I opened it and dipped out 40g o=
f
beans.
The first mod I plan on the TV will just involve insulating the exterior of
the filter basket with styrofoam plastic. I'll still boil it and the filter
mesh before I grind and swamp the grounds with boiling water.
When one puts 200° F water into coffee grounds, filter and basket that ar=
e
130° colder, the 200° isn't seriously expected to remain, is it? Especi=
ally
when the dark body of the basket tends to radiate heat. I'll use white
styrofoam to eliminate radiation and convection losses
I've read contrary claims, but I'm more than a little skeptical. It
certainly did not maintain the 200° when I measured mine. Magic is AWOL a=
t
this altitude.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich 10-Apr-07 00:47
"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich
10-Apr-07 00:46

25) From: derbyrm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ah, fooey.  I think I'll go back to instant.  
I mean, we are talking about warm flavored water here.
Roger (non-taster)
derbyrm http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

26) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
 And I shall say it again... Wow you guys can nuke it somedays!
Dennis 
	"RayO, what mods did you make to the TV?"
	
	At this point, I'm just trying to maximize its [KB-741] performance. I =
boil the basket and filter (200°F here), grind the flash-frozen beans =
pretty coarse (65/100, 0=dust) into the filter. 
	
	I pour 8oz of boiling water directly into the grounds in the basket =
with the valve closed at the bottom. The bloom is vigorous and nearly =
fills the 18oz basket to the overflow port. I turn on the TV after =
1minute and swing the outlet arm to the rear of the basket. (The =
reservoir cover is slotted to allow for that exact position) 
	
	When the brewer starts perking, I rotate the basket so the water stream =
hits all around the bloom. I center the arm and open the valve about the =
time the basket is full of coffee, not bloom.
	
	The aroma and bouquet are just stupendous through all of this. The cup =
(16oz Captain Morgan stein) tastes even better. What colossal flavor. 
	
	Incredibly, the Panama Berlina beans have been in the pantry almost two =
years, in the same plastic bag as received. Roasted 25 Mar 07 to FC+, =
all the beans were showing a sheen. 15days post roast, sealed in a fruit =
jar. I had my doubts, but what an aroma puff when I opened it and dipped =
out 40g of beans. 
	
	The first mod I plan on the TV will just involve insulating the =
exterior of the filter basket with styrofoam plastic. I'll still boil it =
and the filter mesh before I grind and swamp the grounds with boiling =
water. 
	
	When one puts 200° F water into coffee grounds, filter and basket =
that are 130° colder, the 200° isn't seriously expected to remain, =
is it? Especially when the dark body of the basket tends to radiate =
heat. I'll use white styrofoam to eliminate radiation and convection =
losses 
	
	I've read contrary claims, but I'm more than a little skeptical. It =
certainly did not maintain the 200° when I measured mine. Magic is =
AWOL at this altitude.
	
	Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
	
	"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh =
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich 10-Apr-07 00:47
	
	
	"The indisputable truth is that no coffee is fresh if it isn't fresh =
roasted." - - Martin Diedrich
	10-Apr-07 00:46
	

27) From: derbyrm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
The coarser grind did help.  I still had to watch it and go to full =
drain for a few seconds, but it didn't overflow and the coffee was good. =
 My grinder will do even coarser, so I'll go further.
Someone else suggested that too much stirring could cause trouble.  I've =
been using the "if a little is good, more is better" approach.  Tomorrow =
I'll try less.
Thanks,
  Roger
derbyrm http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm


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