HomeRoast Digest


Topic: 1# sub $500 smokeless home roaster on the near horizon? (35 msgs / 792 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee">http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/homeroast/291225Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/

2) From: Jason
Hmmm that looks pretty impressive!  Considering the only real option I
have for roasting currently is the Nesco, I will be very intrested to
see Tom's review on these!

3) From: Sandy Andina
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Wow! At that price I'd gladly cool manually (or transfer the to my i- 
Roasts, which cool in only 4 minutes).
On Apr 18, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Jason wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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Wow! At that price I'd gladly =
cool manually (or transfer the to my i-Roasts, which cool in only 4 =
minutes).
On Apr 18, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Jason =
wrote:
Hmmm that looks pretty = impressive!  Considering = the only real option Ihave for roasting currently = is the Nesco, I will be very intrested tosee = Tom's review on these!homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-176-1041066944--

4) From: Kevin
I'm eagerly awaiting Tom's review!

5) From: Leo Zick
it looks promising, but does, despite the designer saying otherwise, look
like a reworked ronco.  which is cool, i think its a great little design if
done right..

6) From: Jason
After reading many of the 11 pages of that thread.  I am wondering if
Tom has already seen one of these, from reading the "unfiltered
roasters comments" the maker responded to, just kinda sounded like
some of his words from other reviews here both on roasters and on
coffee coming out of them.  Really hoping he will jump in and tell us
if he has seen one of these.

7) From: Leo Zick
i only read one page.  user options rock. :p
On 4/18/07, Jason  wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Justin Marquez
"It's called the Behmor 1600.
It's designed by Joe Behm, and he's been working on it since 2000. The claim
was a "smokeless" 1 pound roaster, and James at the CoffeeProject.com has
had one for a while, and says it's really is smokeless, even when roasting a
full pound of green coffee, even when taking the roast dark."
Looks pretty interesting.
Say... would a 3# roaster he would sell be called a "Behmmoth"?
heheheh
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On 4/18/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Not sure about the 3# model, but a 3 BAG model certainly! ;-)  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Justin Marquez
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:19 PM
"It's called the Behmor 1600.
  
Say... would a 3# roaster he would sell be called a "Behmmoth"?
heheheh

10) From: Paul Carder
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
miKe, I sure hopes it works out! If it works as advertised, the only =
concern I'd have is with it's ability, or lack thereof, for a quick cool =
down. When a low cost, no smoke, and quick cooldown roaster comes on the =
market, home roasting  will mushroom like wildfire. Ceasing to be a =
niche market of dedicated folks like us of the only way to enjoy truly =
fresh coffee. While most everyone who has tasted my home roasted beans =
have said it's the best they'd ever had, I can't get anyone involved =
because of homeroasting's inconveneience and/or the cost of a good =
roaster. Do you know when it is to be released for sale?
Regards Paul Carder

11) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Know just what's in the CoffeeGeek forum thread, where it's mentioned May
target release IIRC.
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Paul Carder
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:35 PM
miKe, I sure hopes it works out! If it works as advertised, the only concern
I'd have is with it's ability, or lack thereof, for a quick cool down. When
a low cost, no smoke, and quick cooldown roaster comes on the market, home
roasting  will mushroom like wildfire. Ceasing to be a niche market of
dedicated folks like us of the only way to enjoy truly fresh coffee. While
most everyone who has tasted my home roasted beans have said it's the best
they'd ever had, I can't get anyone involved because of homeroasting's
inconveneience and/or the cost of a good roaster. Do you know when it is to
be released for sale?
Regards Paul Carder

12) From: John Moody
It will likely heat the drum with IR heaters, and have a recirculation fan for a second heater in the recirculation duct.
The hot second heater is claimed to help reduce smoke.  Keeping chaff off the elements is claimed to be an additional way that smoke is reduced.  Some form of filter may also be included.
Let's wish him success, the more options for us the better.
John
----- Original Message ----
From: Leo Zick 
To: homeroast
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:18:22 PM
Subject: Re: +1# sub $500 smokeless home roaster on the near horizon?
it looks promising, but does, despite the designer saying otherwise, look like a reworked ronco.  which is cool, i think its a great little design if done right..

13) From: Jason
Paul, You maybe correct there!  In fact if you look at te evolution of
"coffee" over the last say 15 years or so you had Starbucks popping up
all over which showed many (myself included) there was better coffee
out there then, 7-11, then after the huge success of starbucks you
started having other chains poping up that were on par with Starbucks,
some with coffee that was even better.  Then in recent years we now
have a place downtown  which you can go buy fresh roasted coffee, and
can watch them roast it, and they have a wonderful coffee bar.
I had no idea the home roasting community even existed until about 6
months ago, when I learned that you could do so smokeless with the
Nesco, I signed up and started ordering from SM very quickly after
having one batch of coffee he roasted for me.
While I think you are correct, I think it is the natural progression
of niche markets into full blown industries.  We as a race always
strive to create and make things better; and who wouldn't want better
coffee???  LOL
On 4/18/07, Paul Carder  wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: Sandy Andina
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Little by little, I began to watch the thread on CoffeeGeek unfold  
into successive posters delightedly finding something new to knock or  
pan about this roaster, just for the sake of displaying some sort of  
discernment. Now, a critical review is great, but the fact remains:  
there is no such thing as the "perfect" roaster (the same can be said  
for just about any person, substance or device).  What I find so  
promising about this one is the ability to roast large amounts  
indoors, smokelessly and affordably.  Just as I already employ two  
different methods, each of which has its strengths and weaknesses, so  
will I approach this--but the capacity, simplicity and price are  
probably what will be my primary motivators here.  Can hardly wait!
On Apr 18, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Paul Carder wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-179-1066348584
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Little by little, I began to =
watch the thread on CoffeeGeek unfold into successive posters =
delightedly finding something new to knock or pan about this roaster, =
just for the sake of displaying some sort of discernment. Now, a =
critical review is great, but the fact remains: there is no such thing =
as the "perfect" roaster (the same can be said for just about any =
person, substance or device).  What I find so promising about this one =
is the ability to roast large amounts indoors, smokelessly and =
affordably.  Just as I already employ two different methods, each of =
which has its strengths and weaknesses, so will I approach this--but the =
capacity, simplicity and price are probably what will be my primary =
motivators here.  Can hardly wait!
On Apr 18, 2007, at =
4:34 PM, Paul Carder wrote:
miKe, I sure hopes it = works out! If it works as advertised, the only concern I'd have is with = it's ability, or lack thereof, for a quick cool down. When a low cost, = no smoke, and quick cooldown roaster comes on the market, home roasting = will mushroom like wildfire. Ceasing to be a niche market of = dedicated folks like us of the only way to enjoy truly fresh coffee. = While most everyone who has tasted my home roasted beans have said = it's the best they'd ever had, I can't get anyone involved because of = homeroasting's inconveneience and/or the cost of a good roaster. Do = you know when it is to be released for = sale? = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-179-1066348584--

15) From: Angelo
<Snip>
As to the cooling down, he explains that it would take ~12-13 mins 
with the door shut, but it drops to about 10 with it open. You can 
also take out the drum and cool them externally... It's a long thread 
and I may be a little off, but this is the general drift....
A
<Snip>

16) From: Leo Zick
is this good or bad? good that it expands interest, but bad that it creates
a saturated cost driven market.
On 4/18/07, Jason  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Angelo
I , selfishly, hope that homeroasting doesn't become popular... I 
don't see the advantage to it...
A
<Snip>

18) From: Jeff Oien
Sandy Andina wrote:
<Snip>
Not to knock or pan, but a 13 minutes cool down time for a pound of 
beans in order to remain smokeless would be a deal breaker for me.
Also here is an interesting thread:http://tinyurl.com/23mf4uJeffO

19) From: Floyd Lozano
Anyone happen to know the specific heat of coffee?   Looking at that
toaster, i am at once excited but skeptical that it can shed 1lb + machine
internal's worth of heat energy in anything approaching 2 or 3 minutes to
cool the works down to room temp.  The easiest way would be to dump them
into an already relatively cool environment and let physics happen.  Works
pretty well for the big roasters!
On 4/18/07, Jeff Oien  wrote:
<Snip>

20) From: Sandy Andina
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You can still stop the cooling cycle and do a manual dump--or what I  
plan to do, which is pour the beans into my i-Roasts and immediately  
hit "cool" as soon as they start up (and also use the Stir-Crazy  
without heat for the rest of the beans).
On Apr 18, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Jeff Oien wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-181--1069374816
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You can still stop the cooling =
cycle and do a manual dump--or what I plan to do, which is pour the =
beans into my i-Roasts and immediately hit "cool" as soon as they start =
up (and also use the Stir-Crazy without heat for the rest of the =
beans).
On Apr 18, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Jeff Oien =
wrote:
Sandy Andina wrote: = Little by little, I began = to watch the thread on CoffeeGeek unfold into successive posters = delightedly finding something new to knock or pan about this roaster, = just for the sake of displaying some sort of discernment. Now, a = critical review is great, but the fact remains: there is no such thing = as the "perfect" roaster (the same can be said for just about any = person, substance or device).  = What I find so promising about this one is the ability to roast = large amounts indoors, smokelessly and affordably.   Not to = knock or pan, but a 13 minutes cool down time for a pound of beans in = order to remain smokeless would be a deal breaker for me. Also = here is an interesting thread:http://tinyurl.com/23mf4uJeffOhomeroastmailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-181--1069374816--

21) From: Les
I'll stick with my RK drum.  I have roasted from 1 bean to 4 pounds and I
don't mind the smoke at all!
Les
On 4/18/07, Sandy Andina  wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Robert Pearce
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
""In general, it is remarkably solid in it's build, although the only
physical attribute I would like to be a bit easier is loading the drum. I
have used the presets, and chosen to stay with 1/2 Lb. as a
testing amount so far. I like the control panel a lot. It is bulky and looks
like a toaster oven/microwave, which makes me initially think it seems more
of a commercial machine you keep behind the scenes. But most of the roasters
are not that beautiful - maybe the hottop wins there since it imitates a
commercial shop roaster. But looks are not the most important thing, and the
machine feels incredibly solid. The light in the roast chamber works well,
but the coffee is not quite visible enough to roast visually: I think users
will need to understand the sounds and smells of roasting a bit. I had
trouble reproducing the same roast at the same setting after the machine
warmed up. It might be important to note in documentation that ,once the
roaster is warm, there will need to be X adjustment in roast time to
compensate. Smoke production was very low until wwent to some darker levels,
so it has the other 2 half pound roasters beat in that respect. What I have
not done, and I think is most important, is to evaluate the results in the
cup, comparing the samecoffee, roasted in your machine vs. hottop, vs. gene
cafe, vs.hearthware, etc."
** I've yet to receive the cupping data but I know this man has been quite
busy with other issues."
The above looks like Toms style of writing and we all know he's been quite
busy with the new addition to the family (quoted from a post by the
inventor).
Just speculation but if Tom did test it he's probably under NDA and couldn't
say anything about it.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Les
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:32 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +1# sub $500 smokeless home roaster on the near horizon?
I'll stick with my RK drum.  I have roasted from 1 bean to 4 pounds and I
don't mind the smoke at all!
Les
On 4/18/07, Sandy Andina  wrote: 
You can still stop the cooling cycle and do a manual dump--or what I plan to
do, which is pour the beans into my i-Roasts and immediately hit "cool" as
soon as they start up (and also use the Stir-Crazy without heat for the rest
of the beans). 
On Apr 18, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Jeff Oien wrote:
Sandy Andina wrote:
Little by little, I began to watch the thread on CoffeeGeek unfold into
successive posters delightedly finding something new to knock or pan about
this roaster, just for the sake of displaying some sort of discernment. Now,
a critical review is great, but the fact remains: there is no such thing as
the "perfect" roaster (the same can be said for just about any person,
substance or device).   What I find so promising about this one is the
ability to roast large amounts indoors, smokelessly and affordably.  
Not to knock or pan, but a 13 minutes cool down time for a pound of beans in
order to remain smokeless would be a deal breaker for me.
Also here is an interesting thread:http://tinyurl.com/23mf4uJeffOSandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com  
www.myspace.com/sandyandina

23) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
I have two 1/4 pound roasters built from electric rotisserie ovens. Both can
cool in the oven with the door open for two minutes and properly quench the
roast. After this, the beans are dumped onto a tray for final cooling. I use
a popper just to dechaff the already cool beans.
I am almost sure that 1/2 pound batches can be done with a larger drum. But
one pound, I have my doubts about in-roaster cooling. It seems logical that
one pound needs a dedicated cooler/dechaffer.
--

24) From: Leo Zick
whats the specific heat of coffee have to do with cooling machine
internals?  better yet, whats it got to do with cooling at all? its more
pertinent to roasting the bean, as specific heat dictates how much energy is
required to raise the temp, not lower..
anyway, i think it would be between water (4.186 J/gr) and something like
kidney beans, (3.39) since the bean has more water then legumes. even then,
it would vary depending on processing method, region grown, bean type..
On 4/18/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: Leo Zick
as expected with most threads on alt.coffee, anything outside of the norm
seems to turn into a bashing.  poor guy has a lot of proving to do to those
folks!
On 4/18/07, Jeff Oien  wrote:
<Snip>

26) From: Alchemist John
Speaking from experience, if I open the door to my roaster and hit it 
with a few hundred CFM of air (blow drier) while the  pound of beans 
is still in the drum (perforated) is still in place rotating, the 
whole system is cool in a couple minutes.
At 04:41 4/19/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

27) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ahem!  A critical review would involve actually putting your hands on =
one and using it, right?   Not to be critical.   Dan
   Now, a critical review is great...

28) From: Floyd Lozano
well i'm no thermodynologist, but i would think that if you could calculate
how much heat energy goes in, and you know the rate at which you can
dissipate heat energy, you could figure out how long it took to cool that.
but i could be wrong.  i'm no thermodynologist.
-F
On 4/19/07, Leo Zick  wrote:
<Snip>

29) From: Leo Zick
you could be one, since they dont exist. no one would ever know!  sounds
like an interesting practice.. study the heat released from dynamometers!
if you were a thermodynamicist though, you'd know that the energy required
to calculate the energy required to overcome the specific heat of a bean to
roast it to a certain degree is not related to the dissipation of energy in
cooling said mass.
the hotter things are, the faster they will lose heat. also depends on the
mass of beans, the cooking efficiency of the roasting and how well it
retains heat, and the cooking surface itself is also a factor.  the aluminum
design of a drum roaster would cool faster then, lets say, the ceramic
surface of a turbo oven.
On 4/19/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>

30) From: Floyd Lozano
I would bet money that the energy required to calculate the energy required
is in no way related to cooling, but thanks for confirmation, smart guy!
On 4/19/07, Leo Zick  wrote:
<Snip>

31) From: Leo Zick
cut n paste error while proof reading my sentence :p
nice skirt of the issue at hand.. still no clue what you were originally
driving at, who knows how many posts ago. was it even related to the
machine? i wonder if the designer used all your formulas to design it.. why
not ask on CG.com?  could lead to some interesting convo!
On 4/19/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>

32) From: Floyd Lozano
Well.  The point was it should be possible to calculate how fast you can rid
the beans and internals of the machine of the heat they gained, facetiously
employing poor and clearly fictional diction to spice post with a(n
attempted) dash of humor.  The difference is whether the solution was
engineered or arrived at empirically.  I don't know if anyone has taken a
disciplined approach to design a roaster, but am curious.  The math makes my
head hurt, but some people dig on that stuff.  Perhaps a better approach
would have been to ask the question directly, succinctly, and
non-conversationally.  My apologies.
-F
On 4/19/07, Leo Zick  wrote:
<Snip>

33) From: Leo Zick
or just with less adjectives!
simplicity is a lost art.
On 4/19/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>

34) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
<Snip>
Hi folks - I have had one for a month. I tend to stay mum on these 
things because I think the level of excitement about a new roaster 
should match the true, substantiated claims about it. I hate hype. In 
this case, I would like you all to mentally scratch "smokeless" out 
of the picture. Hit second crack and the machine is not smokeless. My 
second major point is that this machine is not close to production - 
all I have is a prototype. And it has been in prototype for years... 
and years. It is not pretty, but the chassis is very solid, and it 
does roast 1 Lb in around 19 minutes - acceptable for sure. It uses a 
fairly flimsy drum made of the wire that a commercial deep fry basket 
is contructed of. This helps with airflow and gravity removal of 
chaff. It's like the old Unimax - quartz halogen heating elements. 
Anyway, It has some strong points. Price, and capacity are the main 
ones, while there is nothing else so innovative. It doesn't have the 
looks or "viewability" of the hottop of the genecafe. But I have 
found roasts to be good quality and even, perhaps a bit toned-down by 
this type of heat element and long roast (reminds me a little of the 
Nesco aka Z&D.) Again, the price - I am not sure where it will really 
end up because, since it is not truly being manufactured yet, how can 
that final cost be known? Also, I guess he has a new prototype in 
transit to me, so my comments are based on a slightly older one (to 
be fair). Still, we found it to be "low smoke" doing 1/2 lb batches 
up to about FC, and quite smokey doing full Lb batches when entering 
2nd crack. When you look up in a 2 story warehouse and see a thick 
layer of blue smoke under the skylights, its a kinda makes you think 
that in a more confined space the room would be filled with smoke. 
Anyway, what I think is really going on is this: he is going to take 
the flyer to the scaa (early may) and promote the machine, and this 
is pre-scaa publicity. It looks like he asked coffee geek to announce 
it, and then is participating in the thread. I don't like the fact 
that I am being quoted there, and they are not comments I have 
publicly made about this machine. My feeling is this: Prototypes are 
like the dreaded "type sample" in the green coffee world. A type 
sample is something a coffee producer or exporter shows you as an 
example of, in a theory, they might produce, but type samples are 
always primped and powdered ... they don't represent real coffee. 
There are so many issues that come up in actually producing a 
roaster, so many small decisions that make or break it, that the 
safest way to proceed is always to manufacture a small run, test 
them, and then make improvements. It's expensive but it serves 
everybody's best interests in the long run ... and that is my concern 
too - the long run. Do you all remember the Unimax, where this quartz 
lamp idea comes from, then they disappeared, then they reemerged as 
Royalmax, presumably just to sell of existing stock, then disappeared 
again. That's not what you want when. after 6 months, a heating 
element goes. In a way, I apologize for being mum about the machine. 
Basically, there is little I withhold from this list. But its also 
hard to discuss something when I am the only one who has one. And I 
was instructed not to discuss or show the machine too ... well, I 
guess that directive can be ignored...
Tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com

35) From: Jason
Tom,
Just FYI, you weren't "Quoted" on the CG, list, your readers here were
discussing if we thought those were your comments.  If I remember, it
was "From a professional cupper" or something to that effect.  The
creator was getting hammered pretty bad there, and I don't think he
knew what he was in for when he signed up to answer questions on that
thread.
Sorry, if I caused any confusion.  If this really is unveiled this
year please let us know your thoughts.


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