HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Freezing roasted coffee (serious post not DHI) (12 msgs / 457 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
No, not part of the "DHI" thread even though it has been discussed on
numerous occasions. For those that have not seen it there's a recent HB
article titled "Coffee: To Freeze or Not to Freeze" http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee">http://www.home-barista.com/store-coffee-in-freezer.htmlPacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/

2) From: jim gundlach
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I went to the study, pulled down the data and conducted my own  
analysis.  To summarize, they collected data on 64 pairs of shots, 32  
pairs on never frozen with 4 week frozen and 32 pairs of never frozen  
compared with 8 week frozen.  They conclude that there are no  
significant differences in comparing taste, crema, and overall  
assessment of the coffee.  The first point I would make is that with  
this small number of observations, it takes a huge difference to be  
statistically significant.  In brief the significance test tells you  
the probability you are wrong when you say any difference you see in  
your sample really exists in the infinite universe the sample is  
drawn from.  It simply takes a very big difference between 32 pairs  
of shots to be reasonably certain that they just did not show up by  
chance.  Second, contrary to what they report, the 8 week frozen  
coffee has significantly less crema than the never frozen.   In  
general I think the study does suggest it is worth freezing some  
coffee if you happen to have more fresh roasted than you expect to  
use in a normal week or so.  But, I would not move to roasting once  
every two months and expect to use freezing to maintain the quality  
because of these results.
Also, I was scheduled to teach my last class before retiring at 3:30  
this afternoon.  However, someone called in a bomb threat a little  
after two this afternoon and the classroom building was evacuated for  
the rest of the day.  They took the threat very seriously, cleared  
everyone out of about a 9 block area.  I still have two finals to  
give but my last lecture apparently will never be delivered.
    Pecan Jim
On Apr 26, 2007, at 12:41 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
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I went to the study, pulled down =
the data and conducted my own analysis.  To summarize, they collected =
data on 64 pairs of shots, 32 pairs on never frozen with 4 week frozen =
and 32 pairs of never frozen compared with 8 week frozen.  They =
conclude that there are no significant differences in comparing taste, =
crema, and overall assessment of the coffee.  The first point I would =
make is that with this small number of observations, it takes a huge =
difference to be statistically significant.  In brief the significance =
test tells you the probability you are wrong when you say any difference =
you see in your sample really exists in the infinite universe the sample =
is drawn from.  It simply takes a very big difference between 32 pairs =
of shots to be reasonably certain that they just did not show up by =
chance.  Second, contrary to what they report, the 8 week frozen =
coffee has significantly less crema than the never frozen.   In =
general I think the study does suggest it is worth freezing some coffee =
if you happen to have more fresh roasted than you expect to use in a =
normal week or so.  But, I would not move to roasting once every two =
months and expect to use freezing to maintain the quality because of =
these results.
Also, = I was scheduled to teach my last class before retiring at 3:30 this = afternoon.  However, someone called in a bomb threat a little after = two this afternoon and the classroom building was evacuated for the = rest of the day.  They took the threat very seriously, cleared = everyone out of about a 9 block area.  I still have two finals to give = but my last lecture apparently will never be delivered.
   Pecan = Jim On Apr 26, 2007, at 12:41 PM, miKe mcKoffee = wrote:

No, not = part of the "DHI" thread even though it has been discussed on

=

numerous occasions. For = those that have not seen it there's a recent HB

article titled "Coffee: To = Freeze or Not to Freeze" 

">http://w=ww.home-barista.com/store-coffee-in-freezer.html

= --Apple-Mail-22--377486524--

3) From: miKe mcKoffee
I'm no statistician or whatever so missed the 8 week frozen having
"significantly less crema" in the report. That may be the case and not
saying otherwise for that testing.
 
However, I am a bit into espresso and have done some frozen roast testing
myself. I don't see a degradation in crema production with moderate term
freezer storage. Gee, in fact posted a video on this List back Dec 28, 2006
of 7 day rested THEN 6 weeks frozen coffee. Then defrosted, ground and shot
pulled. Here's the cut & paste of that post:
 
Here's a video of shot October 12th of some "old" 7 day rested then 6 week
vac sealed frozen beans:-)http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7510195106277647437&hl=enAppears
to be a good 90%+ crema end of shot Guinessing to ~45% 30 seconds post shot.
This is my blend of 100% Arabica Caffe' Rosto 15min gentle tickling a wee
bit into 2nd profile roasted to light FC, 4min drying equalization stage to
300f, level ramp to start of 1st ~9:30, 15min end of roast cooled to 125f
~2min, pre-roast equal part blend of Aged Sumatra, Brazil Cerrado DP, Brazil
Cerrado WP, Harrar DP and Kona WP. Shot pulled ~202f. 
 
End cut & paste.
No freezer storage is not my norm. But I certainly do use it for certain
situations, including if I've simply roasted more than will be consumed in
10 days. I really don't care if some choose to disbelieve evidence
presented. Presented over and over over the years. I don't care if some
people choose to not even try it for themselves but rather choose to believe
unsubstantiated reports it doesn't work and prefer to just think they know
it won't work to preserve taste rather than actually know for themselves. 
So what if the crema was 90%, how did it taste right? Well as I recall not
quite as good as at 7 days rest before frozen but very good and not stale at
all.
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
all not quite as good as at 7 days rest before frozen but damn good and not
stale at all.
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of jim gundlach
	Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 8:48 PM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: Re: +Freezing roasted coffee (serious post not DHI)
	
	I went to the study, pulled down the data and conducted my own
analysis. To summarize, they collected data on 64 pairs of shots, 32 pairs
on never frozen with 4 week frozen and 32 pairs of never frozen compared
with 8 week frozen. They conclude that there are no significant differences
in comparing taste, crema, and overall assessment of the coffee. The first
point I would make is that with this small number of observations, it takes
a huge difference to be statistically significant. In brief the significance
test tells you the probability you are wrong when you say any difference you
see in your sample really exists in the infinite universe the sample is
drawn from. It simply takes a very big difference between 32 pairs of shots
to be reasonably certain that they just did not show up by chance. Second,
contrary to what they report, the 8 week frozen coffee has significantly
less crema than the never frozen. In general I think the study does suggest
it is worth freezing some coffee if you happen to have more fresh roasted
than you expect to use in a normal week or so. But, I would not move to
roasting once every two months and expect to use freezing to maintain the
quality because of these results. 
	
	Also, I was scheduled to teach my last class before retiring at 3:30
this afternoon. However, someone called in a bomb threat a little after two
this afternoon and the classroom building was evacuated for the rest of the
day. They took the threat very seriously, cleared everyone out of about a 9
block area. I still have two finals to give but my last lecture apparently
will never be delivered.
	
	Pecan Jim
	
	On Apr 26, 2007, at 12:41 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:

4) From: Vicki Smith
I'm sorry you didn't get to deliver your last lecture, Jim. This was a 
milestone, and you deserved to have it.
I'm clueless about freezing coffee, but even more clueless about stats. 
I guess I'd rather freeze it than toss it, if I had miscalculated how 
much I roasted, but that hasn't happened yet.
vicki
jim gundlach wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
I am sure you recall Mark Twain's famous quote:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
And especially when it comes to coffee discussion,
"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane."http://www.quotemountain.comI am less inclined to freeze coffee since I have been able to extend room
temperature shelf life to about 3 to 4 weeks. There has also been recent
discussion of flavor peaks in the 7 day range. Years ago when we all used
poppers or similar roasters, there was a consensus that after 5 to 7 days
the coffee rapidly became stale and undrinkable. Freezing was a valid option
then. But with today's drum roasters and different roast methods, there
seems to be a significant increase in shelf life, and fewer reasons to
freeze.
--

6) From: Brett Mason
I find drinking coffee is far more fulfilling than freezing coffee.
Frozen coffee hurts my teeth.
Nevertheless, you may find a business opportunity in frozen coffee.
Brett
On 4/27/07, Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

7) From: John Moody
<Snip>
Yes, some of my roasts fall into the abyss in that timeframe.  Almost
always, they were ones where the profile was out of control.  A recent
re-roast of an aborted roast was terrible to start with, and went worse even
faster.
John

8) From: jim gundlach
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On Apr 27, 2007, at 7:16 AM, Ken Mary wrote:
<Snip>
I agree, I would be more interested in seeing a comparison between  
four week old frozen and four week old coffee that was not frozen.
Pecan Jim
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On Apr 27, 2007, =
at 7:16 AM, Ken Mary wrote:

Years ago when we all = used

poppers = or similar roasters, there was a consensus that after 5 to 7 = days

the = coffee rapidly became stale and undrinkable. Freezing was a valid = option

then. But = with today's drum roasters and different roast methods, there

=

seems to be a significant = increase in shelf life, and fewer reasons to

freeze.

= I agree, I would be more interested in = seeing a comparison between four week old frozen and four week old = coffee that was not frozen.    
Pecan = Jim= --Apple-Mail-23--342848538--

9) From: miKe mcKoffee
Obviously anyone can themselves do any type of comparison they want to see!
Personally I have no need of running further storage tests for my own
edification.
That said as far back as '02 did a 4 week storage test of three methods: vac
stored, vac stored w/oxygen scrubber packets and ziplock bag stored with
samples send out to multiple listers. Les & I actually took the tasting out
to 5 weeks. Plus fresh roasted and 3 day rested mason vac jar & valve bag
for Les & my comparisons. 
March '06 Aaron gave his final report on 4 week test of vac sealed,
non-vac'd and sealed, valve bag & ziplock baggie.
Oh heck search the archives and you'll find countless storage posts
including freezing post results, including one of mine from June '06 that
included results of pulling a shot of Monkey that had been vac sealed frozen
for OVER A YEAR after 9 days room temp rest still yielding 80 to 85% crema
shot, stale coffee won't do that! (but no video of that one). Also includes
Tom tossing a valve bag of Mexican in the freezer and forgetting about it
for 6 months. His asessment was while not as good as fresh roast and rested,
it was still amazingly good.
Obviously roasting a bunch of coffee and freezing it for future consumption
is not a logical mode of operation for home roasters. But there can be very
good reasons to use it in a home roaster's arsenal. Some of mine cut & paste
from above June '06 post: 
"First it's very important to follow Sivetz admonition that they must be
hermetically sealed, keeping ALL freezer air off the beans. You will get
zero freezer taste this way. Mason Jar/bag Foodsaver vacuum sealing
accomplish this quite well IMO. Some of my reasons I have for vac'd and
frozen roasts: 1) Great to have rested and waiting home roast returning from
vacation. (I usually don't freeze 'em until 3 or 4 day vac jar rest.) 2) I
keep a quart mason jar "emergency beans" vac'd and frozen. Sometimes "life"
gets in the way of roasting schedule. This jar is who knows what mix of tail
ends that get added periodically when a batch isn't consumed by 10 days. 3)
On vacation I take individual brewing size vac bag-o-beans and put them in
the freezer on arrival, if no freezer keep them in a cooler. 4) I make up
little pre-ground single brewing size vac bags to take to work, keep them in
the freezer. 5) Anytime it doesn't look like a current roast batch will be
used by day 10 it gets vac jar frozen, sometimes adding to the mixed jar
sometimes keeping it in separate jar. When using beans from a frozen vac jar
I don't bring the whole jar up to room temp, simply measure out what is need
for that brewing, re-vac jar and return it to the freezer. The frozen beans
dumped in the hopper only take a few minutes to come up to room temp for
grinding. And I have ground them without waiting, didn't seem Rocky could
care less, frozen beans no match for hardened steel burrs."
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of jim gundlach
	Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 6:26 AM
<Snip>
	I agree, I would be more interested in seeing a comparison between
four week old frozen and four week old coffee that was not frozen. 
<Snip>

10) From: raymanowen
"shelf life"
How does the coffee know that its aging mode has ended for your purposes,
and now you require it to Live Long and Stay Put in "shelf life?"
Aging, for my coffee, ends when it's ground and brewed. The first thing I do
when I roast and cool the coffee is to brew a 16oz Steinway. Enjoying that
coffee is like listening to Classical music or an organ piece by Bach- Again
and again, you can listen- even hundreds of times, and a different artist
might have a slightly different interpretation that gives a different
feeling to a very familiar movement.
I appreciate that experience in coffee, and I'm at the Hanon finger exercise
level of coffee expertise. Gotta practice some more.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!

11) From: Floyd Lozano
All the testing is good and all, and yes in the end it's the taste of what's
in the cup that matters, but it would be interesting to actually know what
exactly is the chemical process that's occurring that represents 'coffee
staling' (i.e. is it oxidization of certain compounds), quantification of
that and correllation with flavor (taste and measure) and seeing what things
actually retard or halt that process (freezing to 0F?  Freezing to -80F?
Vacuum sealing?  Putting in a box guarded by sharks with fricking laser
beams on their heads?).  Joy and romance in the mystery and all that, yes
yes, but I'd just like to know before I die, that's all.  Or soon
thereafter.  I fear arriving at the pearly gates and being handed a steaming
cup of Hacienda La Esmeralda Gesha and sipping, and thinking 'oh man I've
been pooching roasts and brews for decades'.  At least I'd have the rest of
eternity to enjoy.  Or something.
-F
On 4/27/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: raymanowen
"I fear arriving at the pearly gates and being handed a steaming cup of
Hacienda La Esmeralda Gesha and sipping, and thinking 'oh man I've been
pooching roasts and brews for decades'."
Realistically, I should set up shop in Bakersfield or Needles so I can
become acclimatized.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
I meant the Temperature when I said "Down," Dammit-


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