HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Coffee Terms Article (61 msgs / 2213 lines)
1) From: Tom Ulmer
It's probably been rode hard and put up wet, but the horse still =
breathes...
I share the opinion that language is often typified to points of =
confluent
babble, but as a roaster, do you roast in certain manners when you plan =
to
prepare your coffee beverage as espresso? And what is the proper =
description
of an edible treat that includes coffee prepared as espresso as a major
flavor component?

2) From: mirrera
I happened upon this article, which just lists some basic coffee terminology.  It's not terribly interesting, but look to the end to see the source they took it from(!). http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070430/LIFE01/704300314/1036/LIFE-AdkMike

3) From: miKe mcKoffee
Overall not a bad coffee term listing. The one glaring error or
misconception is:
"Espresso: Used to describe both a roast of coffee and a method of
brewing..."
 
While very true many places call one of their particular blends roasted to
'their particular desired degree' "espresso roast" there is no degree of
roast called espresso roast. For instance *$ has a product called "Espresso
Roast" then go on to say "Our roast is somewhat darker than traditional
Italian espresso." Now if it's darker than traditional Italian espresso how
could it be the "espresso roast"? (Which of course is somewhat meaningless
anyway since there is no one narrow degree roast used for espresso in Italy
but more Regional tendencies towards general degrees of roast used.)
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Curmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>
IFE01/704300314/1036/LIFE
<Snip>

4) From: Leo Zick
mr schulman has the best list ive seen.http://coffeereview.com/reference.cfm?ID4and tons more info out there!">http://coffeecuppers.com/CoffeeTastingGlossary.htmalong with some tasting terms:http://coffeereview.com/reference.cfm?ID4and tons more info out there!
dont think im violating list rules since one site lists SM as a reference
and neither sells product.
not sure that i can think of a more appropriate definition for espresso. it
is both a bean/roast style and a brewing method. what would you call it
mIkE?
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: miKe mcKoffee
What would I call espresso if not also a bean/roast style?
 
One more time, espresso is not a roast. Here's definition of espresso =
from
SM site:
 
cut & paste
 
An espresso is a small, concentrated coffee beverage, 2.5 ounces or less =
for
a double epsresso, served in a demitasse cup. It has both a liquid and a
foam element (crema). It is made on a specialized machine that forces =
hot
water through finely ground coffee that has been compacted (tamped), the
force of the water being spent in the coffee cake. It takes 20-30 =
seconds to
percolate the water through the coffee cake (or "puck") which is held in =
a
portafilter "coffee handle". It is judged by its appearance, aroma,
mouthfeel (body), flavor and aftertaste. 
A more technical definition of espresso by Ernesto Illy is as follows: =
"An
Italian espresso is a polyphasic beverage prepared from roasted and =
ground
coffee and water alone, constituted by a foam layer with a partiucular
"tiger tail" pattern, on top of an emulsion of microscopic oil droplets =
in
an aqueous solution of sugars, acids, protein-like materials, and =
caffeine,
with dispersed gas-bubbles and solids ... The distinguishing sensory
characteristics of italian espresso include a rich body, a full fine =
aroma,
and equilibrated bitter-sweet taste with an acidic note, and a pleasant
lingering after-taste, exempt from unpleasant flavor defects."
end cut & paste
See any mention of degree of roast?
 
Oh, and from SCAA website:
 
Cut & paste
What Espresso is not 
The term espresso has been applied as a descriptor and modifier to ice
cream, cakes, tortes, paint color, and many other not-so-deserving =
things.
As for coffee, the term espresso is often construed inaccurately as a
definition for a darkness of roast, a general fineness of grind, a =
specific
blend of coffees, and even mistakenly as if Espresso was a country where
coffee is grown! 
Although a particular roaster may have established a specific blend and
darkness of roast that they have defined as the coffee that they will =
use in
making espresso, and thus named the blend their "Espresso Blend," and =
the
darkness of roast their "Espresso Roast," this casual naming of products =
for
their intended use should not be allowed to confuse anyone about the =
true
meaning of Espresso which is:
		"a fine beverage made using the espresso method of brewing."
THE SCAA?s DEFINITION FOR ESPRESSO:
Espresso is a 45ml (1.5 ounces) beverage that is prepared from 7-9 grams =
of
coffee through which clean water of 192¡ - 198¡ F (88¡ - 92¡ C) =
has been
forced at 9-10 atmospheres of pressure, where the grind of the coffee =
has
made the brewing "flow"* time approximately 22-28 seconds. While =
brewing,
the flow of Espresso will appear to have the viscosity of warm honey and =
the
resulting beverage will exhibit a thick dark gold cream foam ("crema")
topping. Espresso is usually prepared specifically for, and immediately
served to its intended consumer. 
End cut & paste		 
Talk about beating a Dead Horse: ESPRESSO IS NOT A ROAST!!!
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I =
must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal =
enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone =
before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
	Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:31 AM
	
		 
	 not sure that i can think of a more appropriate definition for
espresso. it is both a bean/roast style and a brewing method. what would =
you
call it mIkE?

6) From: Justin Marquez
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
Roast' coffee!  And it had a use-by date of January 17, 2008, so it must be
really fresh."
(Heheheheh ... Just kidding.  I don't usually go into 4$ anymore.)
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)

7) From: Angelo
According to the below definition, the resultant 
brew from a Moka pot or steam toy would qualify as an espresso, ne?
A
<Snip>
 in
<Snip>
 for
<Snip>
 brewing."
<Snip>
 been
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
 before.
<Snip>
 you
<Snip>

8) From: Leo Zick
its a common term thats understood by most.
dont think you can walk up to joe blow and ask for a fc+ roast high altitud=
e
grown brazilian coffee. i didnt state it was technically accurate, just
understood.  if my grandmother asked me to roast her some espresso coffee, =
i
wouldnt argue with her nor ask her how light or dark she prefers it.  its
understood.
btw, i dont know that id quote a site that uses the question in the
definition!
whats espresso?
espresso is: "a fine beverage made using the espresso method of brewing."
LOL.
since youre essentially talking pure definition, the SCAA doesnt seem to be
too precise either. i hope in the next comp, no one shows up with a 'less
than spec' 6-8 bar lever machine.
glad to see some things get you so worked up!
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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m
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a
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n
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n
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.
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as been
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t
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9) From: Ross
Mike,
I'm still trying to perfect my Latte roast. 
Ross

10) From: Leo Zick
doesnt sound like it to me.  maybe mr illy and mr bialetti didnt get along
as kids.
then again, italians refer to moka pot coffee as black coffee, not espresso=
,
so i think it doesnt matter either way.
On 4/30/07, Angelo  wrote:
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
has been
<Snip>
s
<Snip>
,
<Snip>

11) From: Leo Zick
i roasted a lat-te yesterday, 4 batches-te.
On 4/30/07, Ross  wrote:
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m
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a
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n
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d
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n
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.
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as been
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t
<Snip>

12) From: miKe mcKoffee
A cursory reading of the quoted Ernesto Illy excerpt may lead to seem =
so,
yet not the case. And SCAA quote definitey rules out Moka pot brew. =
Don't
know which resource book Tom was quoting but here's from "Espresso =
Coffee,
The Science of Quality" by Andrea Illy & Rinantonio Viani:
(For a single espresso) The range of parameters is:
*Ground coffee portion 6.5 +/- 1.5g
*Water temperature 90 +/- 5C
*Inlet water pressure 9 +/- 2bar
*Percolation time 30 +/- 5 seconds.
So obviously Moka pot can't make espresso by modern definitions.
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I =
must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal =
enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone =
before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

13) From: mirrera
My initial point was just DD being the source for the definitions, which I found amusing.  It's no surprise that there is some questionable content, considering where it came from.
Strangely, it didn't say anything about putting 6 spoons of sugar in everything...
-AdkMike
From: "Leo Zick" 
<Snip>

14) From: Leo Zick
if im working late, or have a long drive home from airport, i stop and get
an iced DD coffee.  their coffee isnt terrible.
i stopped last week, large iced coffee please!  guy asked, 5 or 6 sugars.
:o
i said no thanks!
On 4/30/07, mirrera  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Brett Mason
"Espresso" must be defined by commonality....  Here is the most common
coffee practise in America...
Espresso is a dark roasted coffee.  Espresso begins in a bag that was
received a couple months ago, and roasted within the last year.
Espresso beans are all loaded into a large, dirty grinder.  Each week the
beans are ground finely, and then they rest in the dozer until needed.
A Barista retireves a portafilter, sometimes clean, orther times not, aned
places it in the grinders PF holder.  A couple sweeps with the dozer lever,
and the grinds go into the portafilter.
Barista removes portfilter, aligns with little plastic tamper thingy on the
front of the grinder, and then lifts the portafilter with about two pounds
pf pressure to make a quality tamped espresso puck.
The portafilter then goes into the espresso machine, a couple little
pitchers are placed below the handle, and the button gets pushed.
A light blond espresso runs right out of the puck, becoming clear quickly.
The Barista retrieves a pitcher of pre-steamed milk from the refrigetrator,
places it under the steam wand, and steams it up again, fresh.
The fresh espresso shots are dumped in a cup, and then the re-steamed milk
is poured in.
$4.25 please.
America does this every day, millions of times.  How can you say that
espresso is not a roast?
Dunkin Donuts had it right!
Brett
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

16) From: Justin Marquez
  It would appear that "espresso" is a process more than just "coffee".
  Now, how about a nice "espresso" made from 5 g ground coffee extracted for
35 seconds at 203 Deg F and 11 bar?
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: miKe mcKoffee
Reply interspersed below:
<Snip>
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
	Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:41 AM
	
<Snip>
Agreed, espresso is common term (mis)understood by most.
<Snip>
altitude grown brazilian coffee. i didnt state it was technically =
accurate,
just understood.
1) Joe Blow doesn't frequent this List generally speaking.
2) When you said "not sure that i can think of a more appropriate =
definition
for espresso" I didn't get your meaning of "appropriate definition" =
really
meaning what people that don't know any better understood the term to =
mean.
<Snip>
wouldnt
argue with her nor ask her how light or dark she prefers it.  its
understood. 
As it should be, she' your grandmother. 
	
<Snip>
definition!
	whats espresso?
	espresso is: "a fine beverage made using the espresso method of
brewing."
	
Nice out of context. Of course that part you quoted was at the end of =
what
the SCAA was explaining WAS NOT espresso which was directly followed by
detailed definition given by SCAA. (and included in quote).
	
<Snip>
seem to be too precise either. i hope in the next comp, no one shows up =
with
a 'less than spec' 6-8 bar lever machine. 
	
Would be cool to see a competitor bring a lever machine but uh, they all =
use
identical tuned and provided by the competition machines. They do have =
the
option of bringing their own grinder, which most top competitors do. =
Which
makes sense I suppose, since the grinder is more important than the =
espresso
machine!
<Snip>
	
Not at all. Just silly seeing "lazy" usage of coffee terminology on a =
coffee
chat List.
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I =
must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal =
enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone =
before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
	
	
	On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
		What would I call espresso if not also a bean/roast style?
		
		One more time, espresso is not a roast. Here's definition of
espresso from 
		SM site:
		
		cut & paste
		
		An espresso is a small, concentrated coffee beverage, 2.5
ounces or less for
		a double epsresso, served in a demitasse cup. It has both a
liquid and a
		foam element (crema). It is made on a specialized machine
that forces hot 
		water through finely ground coffee that has been compacted
(tamped), the
		force of the water being spent in the coffee cake. It takes
20-30 seconds to
		percolate the water through the coffee cake (or "puck")
which is held in a 
		portafilter "coffee handle". It is judged by its appearance,
aroma,
		mouthfeel (body), flavor and aftertaste.
		
		A more technical definition of espresso by Ernesto Illy is
as follows: "An
		Italian espresso is a polyphasic beverage prepared from
roasted and ground 
		coffee and water alone, constituted by a foam layer with a
partiucular
		"tiger tail" pattern, on top of an emulsion of microscopic
oil droplets in
		an aqueous solution of sugars, acids, protein-like
materials, and caffeine, 
		with dispersed gas-bubbles and solids ... The distinguishing
sensory
		characteristics of italian espresso include a rich body, a
full fine aroma,
		and equilibrated bitter-sweet taste with an acidic note, and
a pleasant 
		lingering after-taste, exempt from unpleasant flavor
defects."
		
		end cut & paste
		
		See any mention of degree of roast?
		
		Oh, and from SCAA website:
		
		Cut & paste
		
		What Espresso is not 
		
		The term espresso has been applied as a descriptor and
modifier to ice
		cream, cakes, tortes, paint color, and many other
not-so-deserving things.
		As for coffee, the term espresso is often construed
inaccurately as a 
		definition for a darkness of roast, a general fineness of
grind, a specific
		blend of coffees, and even mistakenly as if Espresso was a
country where
		coffee is grown!
		
		Although a particular roaster may have established a
specific blend and 
		darkness of roast that they have defined as the coffee that
they will use in
		making espresso, and thus named the blend their "Espresso
Blend," and the
		darkness of roast their "Espresso Roast," this casual naming
of products for 
		their intended use should not be allowed to confuse anyone
about the true
		meaning of Espresso which is:
		
		                "a fine beverage made using the espresso
method of brewing."
		
		THE SCAA?s DEFINITION FOR ESPRESSO: 
		
		Espresso is a 45ml (1.5 ounces) beverage that is prepared
from 7-9 grams of
		coffee through which clean water of 192¡ - 198¡ F (88¡ - 92¡
C) has been
		forced at 9-10 atmospheres of pressure, where the grind of
the coffee has 
		made the brewing "flow"* time approximately 22-28 seconds.
While brewing,
		the flow of Espresso will appear to have the viscosity of
warm honey and the
		resulting beverage will exhibit a thick dark gold cream foam
("crema") 
		topping. Espresso is usually prepared specifically for, and
immediately
		served to its intended consumer.
		
		
		End cut & paste
		
		Talk about beating a Dead Horse: ESPRESSO IS NOT A ROAST!!!
		
		Pacific Northwest Gathering V 
	http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htm		
		Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
		URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:
	http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm		Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path.
To know I must
		first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each
Personal enlightenment
		found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who
have gone before. 
		
		Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archives
	http://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/		
		        From: homeroast-admin
		[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
Leo Zick
		        Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:31 AM
		
		
		         not sure that i can think of a more appropriate
definition for
		espresso. it is both a bean/roast style and a brewing
method. what would you
		call it mIkE?

18) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Agreed, Joe Blow would likely understand that as espresso. Excellent
description of what not to strive for!
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:51 AM
"Espresso" must be defined by commonality....  Here is the most common
coffee practise in America...
 
Espresso is a dark roasted coffee.  Espresso begins in a bag that was
received a couple months ago, and roasted within the last year.  
 
Espresso beans are all loaded into a large, dirty grinder.  Each week the
beans are ground finely, and then they rest in the dozer until needed.  
 
A Barista retireves a portafilter, sometimes clean, orther times not, aned
places it in the grinders PF holder.  A couple sweeps with the dozer lever,
and the grinds go into the portafilter.
 
Barista removes portfilter, aligns with little plastic tamper thingy on the
front of the grinder, and then lifts the portafilter with about two pounds
pf pressure to make a quality tamped espresso puck.
 
The portafilter then goes into the espresso machine, a couple little
pitchers are placed below the handle, and the button gets pushed.
 
A light blond espresso runs right out of the puck, becoming clear quickly.
 
The Barista retrieves a pitcher of pre-steamed milk from the refrigetrator,
places it under the steam wand, and steams it up again, fresh.
 
The fresh espresso shots are dumped in a cup, and then the re-steamed milk
is poured in.
 
$4.25 please.
 
America does this every day, millions of times.  How can you say that
espresso is not a roast?
 
Dunkin Donuts had it right!
 
Brett
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
Overall not a bad coffee term listing. The one glaring error or
misconception is:
"Espresso: Used to describe both a roast of coffee and a method of 
brewing..."
While very true many places call one of their particular blends roasted to
'their particular desired degree' "espresso roast" there is no degree of
roast called espresso roast. For instance *$ has a product called "Espresso 
Roast" then go on to say "Our roast is somewhat darker than traditional
Italian espresso." Now if it's darker than traditional Italian espresso how
could it be the "espresso roast"? (Which of course is somewhat meaningless 
anyway since there is no one narrow degree roast used for espresso in Italy
but more Regional tendencies towards general degrees of roast used.)

19) From: Leo Zick
what will all those people who have been ordering coffee cake do?  theyve
been fooled for years!! damn the system!
On 1/1/97, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
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t
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o
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m
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<Snip>

20) From: raymanowen
"...a use-by date of January 17, 2008, so it must be really fresh."
??Isn't that like putting a "Use-by date" on a bag of Kingsford charcoal??
-ro

21) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
dunkin is not the worst coffee buyer out there, by far. i have known 
couple of their cuppers, as well as the people at the independent 
coffee lab that checks their blends and roasts. I mean, they don't 
buy anywhere near the caliber of brazils that a real specialty 
roaster would, nor do they buy at the level of illy, but they are a 
lot better than brands like lavazza and such. and in the past 5 years 
or so they have been making a quality push. well, i don't mean to be 
here arguing on behalf of dd ... i mean, i wouldn't want to drink 
that stuff.
tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com

22) From: Sandy Andina
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what's your take on Krispy Kreme? The times I'd bought their beans-- 
before I either had easy walk-in access to specialty roasters or  
started home-roasting--I found they seemed fresher than DD and had a  
wider variety of roasts.
On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-16--48878230
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charsetO-8859-1
what's your take on Krispy =
Kreme? The times I'd bought their beans--before I either had easy =
walk-in access to specialty roasters or started home-roasting--I found =
they seemed fresher than DD and had a wider variety of =
roasts.
On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Tom & Maria - =
Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
dunkin is not the worst coffee buyer out there, by = far. i have known couple of their cuppers, as well as the people at the = independent coffee lab that checks their blends and roasts. I mean, they = don't buy anywhere near the caliber of brazils that a real specialty = roaster would, nor do they buy at the level of illy, but they are a lot = better than brands like lavazza and such. and in the past 5 years or so = they have been making a quality push. well, i don't mean to be here = arguing on behalf of dd ... i mean, i wouldn't want to drink that = stuff. tom--                   = "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"       =     Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria        =               http://www.sweetmarias.com      =         Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com    Sweet Maria's Coffee - = 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA            = phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-16--48878230--

23) From: Ed Needham
As far as s*** goes, it's pretty good.  Is that what you're trying to say?
::::Insert big belly laugh here::::
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

24) From: Leo Zick
<Snip>

25) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Never frickin' mind you just don't seem to get it...  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:02 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Coffee Terms Article
misunderstood or not, im not trying to argue that. and since this list isnt
spread through the world, we sometimes have to get off our soapboxes and
understand that not everyone has a degree in coffeeology, or is awarded,
CSA, is it?, points.  im sure mr hawking would certainly dumb things down
for you, had you asked him about black holes. 
the espresso quote wasnt out of context. here is your full quote. perhaps i
am reading it wrong.
"and the darkness of roast their "Espresso Roast," this casual naming of
products for 
their intended use should not be allowed to confuse anyone about the true
meaning of Espresso which is:
               "a fine beverage made using the espresso method of brewing.""
it clearly states that the true meaning of espresso is a fine beverage using
the espresso method of brewing.
is that like asking an old lebanese lady how she makes her delicious home
made yogurt? '...well, first you start with some yogurt...' 
all barista comps have comp specific machines, provided to each competitor?
wow! what if you dont work on that machine? it doesnt sound as if it would
be a fair representation of your true drink quality capabilties. im assuming
that pros have preferences as home baristas do. (certain machine, at a
certain temp, certain pressure, etc) 
either way, unless all espresso enthusiasts here fall into these tight
guidelines, i guess not many truly even make espresso, do we? 
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
Reply interspersed below:
<Snip>
 
[mailto:  
homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
        Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:41 AM
<Snip>
Agreed, espresso is common term (mis)understood by most. 
<Snip>
altitude grown brazilian coffee. i didnt state it was technically accurate,
just understood.
1) Joe Blow doesn't frequent this List generally speaking. 
2) When you said "not sure that i can think of a more appropriate definition
for espresso" I didn't get your meaning of "appropriate definition" really
meaning what people that don't know any better understood the term to mean. 
<Snip>
argue with her nor ask her how light or dark she prefers it.  its
understood.
As it should be, she' your grandmother. 
<Snip>
definition!
        whats espresso?
        espresso is: "a fine beverage made using the espresso method of
brewing." 
Nice out of context. Of course that part you quoted was at the end of what
the SCAA was explaining WAS NOT espresso which was directly followed by
detailed definition given by SCAA. (and included in quote). 
<Snip>
seem to be too precise either. i hope in the next comp, no one shows up with
a 'less than spec' 6-8 bar lever machine.
Would be cool to see a competitor bring a lever machine but uh, they all use
identical tuned and provided by the competition machines. They do have the
option of bringing their own grinder, which most top competitors do. Which 
makes sense I suppose, since the grinder is more important than the espresso
machine!
<Snip>
Not at all. Just silly seeing "lazy" usage of coffee terminology on a coffee
chat List.

26) From: Brett Mason
Why won't they just believe you, Mike?  That is so frustrating....
High entertainment value though.
Worth a couple CSA points to you for dogma....
Brett
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

27) From: Leo Zick
'practise', and america... i sense humor here..
this common practice affords shops the luxury to charge $2 to $4 for 2 oz of
boiled dark roast coffee.
ill avoid comment on whether or not its accurate in its definition, but,
with lines wrapped down 42nd street every morning, im willing to bet a lot
of americans will understand the term 'espresso roast'.  their wallets will
force them to!
damn americans and their colloquialisms.  if only i could store my beans in
my frigidaire, life would be so much easier..
On 4/30/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

28) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
It ain't about believing me. I was quoting sources like Tom, Specialty
Coffee Association of American and Andrea Illy...not my fault if someone
can't read or understand what's written like the SCAA's clear definition of
what espresso IS by SCAA standards that was directly after the out of
context quote from the what espresso IS NOT section.
 
You can lead a horse to water but you CAN NOT force them to understand what
the heck water is in the first place!
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:34 PM
Why won't they just believe you, Mike?  That is so frustrating....
High entertainment value though.  
Worth a couple CSA points to you for dogma....
Brett
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
Never frickin' mind you just don't seem to get it...  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:02 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Coffee Terms Article
misunderstood or not, im not trying to argue that. and since this list isnt
spread through the world, we sometimes have to get off our soapboxes and
understand that not everyone has a degree in coffeeology, or is awarded,
CSA, is it?, points.  im sure mr hawking would certainly dumb things down
for you, had you asked him about black holes. 
the espresso quote wasnt out of context. here is your full quote. perhaps i
am reading it wrong.
"and the darkness of roast their "Espresso Roast," this casual naming of
products for 
their intended use should not be allowed to confuse anyone about the true
meaning of Espresso which is:
               "a fine beverage made using the espresso method of brewing.""
it clearly states that the true meaning of espresso is a fine beverage using
the espresso method of brewing.
is that like asking an old lebanese lady how she makes her delicious home
made yogurt? '...well, first you start with some yogurt...' 
all barista comps have comp specific machines, provided to each competitor?
wow! what if you dont work on that machine? it doesnt sound as if it would
be a fair representation of your true drink quality capabilties. im assuming
that pros have preferences as home baristas do. (certain machine, at a
certain temp, certain pressure, etc) 
either way, unless all espresso enthusiasts here fall into these tight
guidelines, i guess not many truly even make espresso, do we? 
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
Reply interspersed below:
<Snip>
 
[mailto:  
homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
        Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:41 AM
<Snip>
Agreed, espresso is common term (mis)understood by most. 
<Snip>
altitude grown brazilian coffee. i didnt state it was technically accurate,
just understood.
1) Joe Blow doesn't frequent this List generally speaking. 
2) When you said "not sure that i can think of a more appropriate definition
for espresso" I didn't get your meaning of "appropriate definition" really
meaning what people that don't know any better understood the term to mean. 
<Snip>
argue with her nor ask her how light or dark she prefers it.  its
understood.
As it should be, she' your grandmother. 
<Snip>
definition!
        whats espresso?
        espresso is: "a fine beverage made using the espresso method of
brewing." 
Nice out of context. Of course that part you quoted was at the end of what
the SCAA was explaining WAS NOT espresso which was directly followed by
detailed definition given by SCAA. (and included in quote). 
<Snip>
seem to be too precise either. i hope in the next comp, no one shows up with
a 'less than spec' 6-8 bar lever machine.
Would be cool to see a competitor bring a lever machine but uh, they all use
identical tuned and provided by the competition machines. They do have the
option of bringing their own grinder, which most top competitors do. Which 
makes sense I suppose, since the grinder is more important than the espresso
machine!
<Snip>
Not at all. Just silly seeing "lazy" usage of coffee terminology on a coffee
chat List.
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

29) From: Brett Mason
As always, I agree Mike - and there are maybe 1-2% of the American public
who also care and agree with the definition you're pushing.  And that
includes the rest of us.  But beware the pedestal, those 98% out there have
no compunction about the veracity of your postulates, and they are more than
happy to have espresso bean slurp each day - $4.25 still.  Good luck telling
them that espresso is not a bean...
Brett
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

30) From: Floyd Lozano
The world is flat, because everyone says it is.
-F
On 4/30/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

31) From: Brett Mason
Indeed Floyd the world is round - and yet virtually every painting and
photograph has a horizon, depicted as a straight line, rather than a curved
line...  Perhaps you can get on a painting and photography forum and tout
the truth....
At some point you'll be considered irrelevant....
Much like the word police who insist the word ESPRESSO is used correctly.
The people here get it.  Some even allow new folks to mis-speak without
losing points on their entrance exam...
Y'all keep riding that horse...  I think the entertainment value is
tremendous...
On 4/30/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

32) From: Frank Parth
LOL!
Brett, if you're going to answer like this, please put a spew alert into the subject line. Damned good thing I wasn't swallowing when I read this.
Frank Parth
On Monday, April 30, 2007, at 11:52AM, "Brett Mason"  wrote:
<Snip>

33) From: Floyd Lozano
Well at last the debate can end.  Get certified.http://www.espressoitaliano.org/eic_en.asp?lang=enOn 5/1/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

34) From: Lynne Biziewski
Hey, when it comes to food & drink, Italy does NOT fool around. Do you know
they have strict laws on how pizza is supposed to be made (when sold, that
is - not referring to pizza made in the home. For home cooking, they have
some big, burly guys come to beat you up if you mess up....)
Lynne
(hey, I'm half Sicilian, so I'm allowed to say that ; > } )
On 5/1/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Who knows where inspiration comes from. Perhaps it arises from desperation.
Perhaps it comes from the flukes of the universe, the kindness of the
muses."
Amy Tan

35) From: Pete
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I'd love to know how much they charge one to get certified.  Seems like =
a gaff to me.

36) From: Leo Zick
im afraid to ask what you do when you want to cook a piece of angus. its
only slightly more substantial then espresso.. or what about grill vs
barbeque, or, vehicle vs car, or...
man, i better get to school. im thirsty and i need a drink. i mean, a
beverage.
On 5/1/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>

37) From: Leo Zick
but, if you go to a caffe in italy, you order, un cafe, per favore.  and,
for some odd reason, its understood that you actually want an espresso!
blasphemy!
:)
On 5/1/07, Lynne Biziewski  wrote:
<Snip>

38) From: mirrera
That espresso certification requires “the use of a certified coffee blend”.  I guess that means that nobody here is actually making espresso.
As for pizza, Neapolitan pizza has been granted DOC status by the Italian Ministry of Agriculture (same as is done for wine and some other foodstuffs).   To get the VPN certification (Verace Pizza Napoletana), you must demonstrate that you make the pizza in accordance with their rules.  You need to use a wood-fired oven, certain ingredients, the pizza can be cooked for 90 seconds max, etc, etc.  However they make it, it's delicious.
From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Lynne Biziewski
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:19 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Coffee Terms Article
Hey, when it comes to food & drink, Italy does NOT fool around. Do you know they have strict laws on how pizza is supposed to be made (when sold, that is - not referring to pizza made in the home. For home cooking, they have some big, burly guys come to beat you up if you mess up....) 
Lynne
(hey, I'm half Sicilian, so I'm allowed to say that ; > } )
On 5/1/07, Floyd Lozano < fplozano> wrote:
Well at last the debate can end.  Get certified. 
 http://www.espressoitaliano.org/eic_en.asp?lang=en

39) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Yup, I choose to attempt to use coffee terms accepted and used by respected
coffee authorities and so call a spoon a spoon. Some like to call a spoon a
fork, which is certainly their right whether technically correct or
incorrect, or whether calling a spoon a fork conveys the idea that the spoon
is in fact a spoon but not a fork. In the ensuing confusion someone even
invented a spork;-)
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:00 PM
As always, I agree Mike - and there are maybe 1-2% of the American public
who also care and agree with the definition you're pushing.  And that
includes the rest of us.  But beware the pedestal, those 98% out there have
no compunction about the veracity of your postulates, and they are more than
happy to have espresso bean slurp each day - $4.25 still.  Good luck telling
them that espresso is not a bean... 
Brett

40) From: Jason
Sometimes it takes a beating about the head to let it sink in.  Refer back
to when I was charing stuff to make espresso and couldn't understand why it
was bitter.  It wasn't until Mike and Les, really explained it over the
course of a few threads for it to sink in.  Once I started using single
origin coffees making espresso with C-FC I thought all espresso was supposed
to taste like ummm Charbucks.  Well thankfully they beat it into my head and
now I am pulling wonderful shots, not perfect, but very good.
On 4/30/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

41) From: Leo Zick
and the majority of the whole world refers to the collective as utensils,
not silverware, regardless of which may be correct.
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

42) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Didn't reference the Collective or what the Borg call their cooking and
eating implements, or lemmings or sheep or other mindless masses...  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:20 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Coffee Terms Article
and the majority of the whole world refers to the collective as utensils,
not silverware, regardless of which may be correct.
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
Yup, I choose to attempt to use coffee terms accepted and used by respected
coffee authorities and so call a spoon a spoon. Some like to call a spoon a
fork, which is certainly their right whether technically correct or
incorrect, or whether calling a spoon a fork conveys the idea that the spoon
is in fact a spoon but not a fork. In the ensuing confusion someone even
invented a spork;-)

43) From: Leo Zick
thats cool, i didnt capitalize collective.
since youre being nitpicky with me lately:
*1* *:* denoting a number of persons or things considered as one group or
whole <*flock* is a *collective* word>
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

44) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Leo,
Agreed, we're being picking with each other, two way street.
 
Leaving the Collective's collection of utensils and returning to the my
original point of contention and Joe Blow.
 
Consider Joe Blow does indeed think espresso is a roast. The same Joe Blow
may just as likely believe Folgers and similar "coffee" is good everyday
coffee. The same Joe Blow again is just as likely to believe he loves an
occasional "espresso" at Starbucks or the like. And what Joe Blow calls "an
espresso" is a Vente Caramel Mocha. Since the "majority" may think Folgers
is good, espresso is a roast, and a heavily milked & syruped drink with a
bit of burnt espresso IS an espresso does that make it so? Does it mean that
those who use the terms as intended and defined by authorities on coffee
should abandon the correct "technical" usages and instead embrace the
uneducated masses useage like Joe Blow's definitions? Would that actually
make intelligent coffee communication more or less effective? 
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:54 AM
thats cool, i didnt capitalize collective.
since youre being nitpicky with me lately:
1 : denoting a number of persons or things considered as one group or whole
< flock is a collective word>
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
Didn't reference the Collective or what the Borg call their cooking and
eating implements, or lemmings or sheep or other mindless masses...  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:20 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Coffee Terms Article
and the majority of the whole world refers to the collective as utensils,
not silverware, regardless of which may be correct.
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  >
wrote:
Yup, I choose to attempt to use coffee terms accepted and used by respected
coffee authorities and so call a spoon a spoon. Some like to call a spoon a
fork, which is certainly their right whether technically correct or
incorrect, or whether calling a spoon a fork conveys the idea that the spoon
is in fact a spoon but not a fork. In the ensuing confusion someone even
invented a spork;-)

45) From: Leo Zick
If you consider that coffee is an acquired, well, closer to forcefully
developed (*), taste, then yes, its very subjective as to definitions.  i
was simply pointing out that its a common knowledge thing. no, it doesnt
make it correct, but people will know what you mean.  they will also know
that black aprons are higher ranked then green, but dont know that neither
mean diddly. coffee 'experience' has come a long way, so at least its a
start!
* - there are a few tastes like this, of course i cant remember any others
now, but its somehow related to tests with animals. actually i think liquor
is another.
my wife feels this way about tea, and who am i to argue with her?  at a
minimum, its brought me to appreciate it a bit more. and, the only reason i
started the technical approach to coffee (yes, espresso in particular) is
because it occupies my time in the off wine-making season.  both are
similar, and joe blow probably doesnt care for either hobby..  but, i dont
ask him if he likes my meritage blend, only if he likes red. :)
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

46) From: Tom Ulmer
I spent this past weekend traveling to Indianapolis and had occasion to view
the gamut of prepared coffee readily available to the collective public or
Joe Blow if you will and I can assure you that espresso is not on the menu.
Even the two Starbucks I ventured into to get a double pulled into a bit of
heavy cream (quite palatable by the way) did not have espresso listed as a
menu item. 
As a side note, did you know that P&G markets a coffee known as espresso
roast as gourmet?

47) From: Leo Zick
as an aside, and to show the global nature of terms, i was talking to
friends about TV types (dlp, hdtv, plasma, etc).  one is a tech for a best
buy subsidiary.  most customers only know what to buy based on friends or TV
commercials.
they ask for something by name, and dont know what it is..(well, rather,
technically, what it is, as it relates to this thread.)
On 5/1/07, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
<Snip>

48) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
So does that imply on an Electronic Engineer's chat List they should not use
industry terminology but rather limit themselves to a "friends" terminology
when discussing electronics ON THE Electronic Engineer's chat List?
 
This is not a grocery store or drive thru espresso stand etc. primarily
frequented by Joe Blow . This is a home roast coffee chat List. Yes this
List has people with widely varying experience levels. OTOH in my 6 years on
the list the trend has always been those that come uneducated in coffee
matters usually strive to become more educated not those with more coffee
education strive to "lower the bar" and forgo using terms so the newest
person will always understand or think they understand when a term used. 
 
Given Tom's roast pictorial, what is the "accepted Joe Blow espresso roast
level" anyway, accepted and understood by all the Joe Blow's out there? The
phrase "espresso degree of roast" has little to no meaning IMO and seemingly
in the opinion of countless coffee professionals.
I choose to continue my coffee education rather than be stuck in the
uneducated morass. And there's nothing wrong with being uneducated. But
choosing to remain uneducated given a choice and encouraging the state of
staying uneducated is another matter entirely IMO.
 
Ok I quit, this is getting beyond redundant and boring... 
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 12:13 PM
as an aside, and to show the global nature of terms, i was talking to
friends about TV types (dlp, hdtv, plasma, etc).  one is a tech for a best
buy subsidiary.  most customers only know what to buy based on friends or TV
commercials. 
they ask for something by name, and dont know what it is..(well, rather,
technically, what it is, as it relates to this thread.)

49) From: MichaelB
Gotta agree! Displaying ignorance is something we are all capable of
doing at any time, about practically any subject. Nothing wrong with that.
But righteously defending one's ignorance about coffee, the very subject
that brings us together on this list, makes me wonder why some people
bother. We don't need that here. :-(
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
--
MichaelB

50) From: Leo Zick
Did I ONCE EVER state that? No, I originally said that that list was
decent and I couldn't understand why you didn't agree on the
definition given ON ANOTHER SITE, NOT GEARED TOWARD OVER CAFFEINATED
COFFEE FANATICS was a problem. I do recall I also posted a couple more
specific links from dedicated coffee sites.
Get off your high horse, you didn't invent the stuff.  If italians can
order 'a coffee' in a caffe and be served espresso, I think its safe
to assume that general knowledge doesn't always have to be accurate to
get what you want, again, especially on a more generic style site.
You've been fun in this thread, thanks for the laughs.
On 5/1/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

51) From: Leo Zick
    So I'm ignorant and showing it? Thanks! You must b e the judge and
jury then, we appreciate your final opinion!
On 5/1/07, MichaelB  wrote:
<Snip>

52) From: Aaron
Since when did the love of coffee become an obsession and anal retentive 
religion?
Some folks are assholes.. arrogant ones at that...
If someone doesn't know something, that doesn't make them ignorant 
necessarily... though there are some who truly are. Im sure Ill be 
accused of being such with this post... but to that I say, go felch road 
kill.
some folks have to geek it down to a nano meter... or would that be 
atomic absorbsion rates of coffee infusion into water...oops, I mean H2O 
at exactly 204.229292923 degrees for the perfect cup of coffee... (in 
THEIR opinion)...
some folks are more 'into' it than others are... some folks are just 
happy with a french press and a good home roast, and don't really wish 
to pursue the $3000 setup for an expresso god I pretend I am  shot...
tell me... the self important person with $150000 dollars worth of 
equipment who tells you on a daily basis how good they are... and the 
lurker with a swiss gold and a heat gun / dog bowl...what do they have 
in common..... they BOTH make and have and drink better coffee than what 
one can get in the stores....
me, I don't keep good notes, but hell, I know a good cup of coffee when 
i taste it, and I know about when to turn the microwave off to keep the 
water at about the right temp...(hint: when it starts bubbling in the 
plastic cup it's time to pour)
seriously, the nerdnoid notes, oh this crop did exactly this at 
nanometer this and angstrom differential that..... ok fine but too bad 
after your few pounds of that crop is gone, you'll never really 
duplicate those 'settings' again, because every crop, every year is 
different... what worked in 05 isn't really working perfectly in '06 the 
same way ... and so on.
Not everybody can afford the really expensive stuff, and those who can't 
want to try to still be part of the... THIS.... community with their, 
(in your opinion) inferior equipment or (again in your opinions) 
substandard techniques.... some folks are on fixed incomes and have 
pulled their heads out of their asses and realised that NO they probably 
never will be able to get the andrea setup at 1600 bucks...so are trying 
to do the best they can with what they have....
Instead of gloating how much more wonderful we think we are in our 
Walter Mitty infused minds with our inspector gadget armorment... why 
not merely say. well THIS is really the best you can get, BUT, you can 
still get good with your setup.  here's how...
just my .02  give it or take it...
Oh and P.S.   my definition of a professional.... the guy who knows 
enough to avoid the little mistakes while blissfully waltzing his way on 
to the grandaddy of all F***ups....
and PPS... I want curmudgeon points for this post too dammit......
Aaron

53) From: Brett Mason
This espresso is definitely roasted.
You merit many curmudgeon points.  But I'm too grouchy to give any....
OK, some...
Brett
On 5/1/07, Aaron  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

54) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Brett, 
 
Besides you failed to mention curmudgeons don't ask for points, they just
confiscate them for themselves:-) It was a worthy diatribe I do agree!
 
miKe  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:35 PM
This espresso is definitely roasted.  
You merit many curmudgeon points.  But I'm too grouchy to give any....
OK, some...
Brett
On 5/1/07, Aaron  wrote: 
Since when did the love of coffee become an obsession and anal retentive
religion?
Some folks are assholes.. arrogant ones at that...
If someone doesn't know something, that doesn't make them ignorant 
necessarily... though there are some who truly are. Im sure Ill be
accused of being such with this post... but to that I say, go felch road
kill.
some folks have to geek it down to a nano meter... or would that be 
atomic absorbsion rates of coffee infusion into water...oops, I mean H2O
at exactly 204.229292923 degrees for the perfect cup of coffee... (in
THEIR opinion)...
some folks are more 'into' it than others are... some folks are just 
happy with a french press and a good home roast, and don't really wish
to pursue the $3000 setup for an expresso god I pretend I am  shot...
tell me... the self important person with $150000 dollars worth of 
equipment who tells you on a daily basis how good they are... and the
lurker with a swiss gold and a heat gun / dog bowl...what do they have
in common..... they BOTH make and have and drink better coffee than what 
one can get in the stores....
me, I don't keep good notes, but hell, I know a good cup of coffee when
i taste it, and I know about when to turn the microwave off to keep the
water at about the right temp...(hint: when it starts bubbling in the 
plastic cup it's time to pour)
seriously, the nerdnoid notes, oh this crop did exactly this at
nanometer this and angstrom differential that..... ok fine but too bad
after your few pounds of that crop is gone, you'll never really 
duplicate those 'settings' again, because every crop, every year is
different... what worked in 05 isn't really working perfectly in '06 the
same way ... and so on.
Not everybody can afford the really expensive stuff, and those who can't 
want to try to still be part of the... THIS.... community with their,
(in your opinion) inferior equipment or (again in your opinions)
substandard techniques.... some folks are on fixed incomes and have
pulled their heads out of their asses and realised that NO they probably 
never will be able to get the andrea setup at 1600 bucks...so are trying
to do the best they can with what they have....
Instead of gloating how much more wonderful we think we are in our
Walter Mitty infused minds with our inspector gadget armorment... why 
not merely say. well THIS is really the best you can get, BUT, you can
still get good with your setup.  here's how...
just my .02  give it or take it...
Oh and P.S.   my definition of a professional.... the guy who knows 
enough to avoid the little mistakes while blissfully waltzing his way on
to the grandaddy of all F***ups....
and PPS... I want curmudgeon points for this post too dammit......
Aaron-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

55) From: Angelo
I think many people think that any coffee served in those little cups 
is espresso...

56) From: Brett Mason
Comes  from espresso trees too!
Brett
On 5/1/07, Angelo  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

57) From: Ed Needham
You came through Louisville and didn't call me?  One day we will finally 
meet.
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

58) From: Jim Carter
I've had scotch that was $400 a bottle, cabernet that was $300 a bottle, 
and cigars that were $60 each. They were all Very Good, or perhaps 
Fantastic. However, there is a special joy that comes from finding any 
one of these that is good for a lot less money. For example, a cabernet 
for <$20 or a decent cigar for < $6.  It's similar to taking a $5 pound 
of green coffee beans, tossing them into a $3 dog bowl and roasting them 
to near perfection with a $30 heat gun. Anybody else crack a smile when 
you drive past a Starbucks or walk down the coffee aisle in a grocery store?
- JC
Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Amber Systems, Inc.
414 Main Street Suite 211-C
Rochester, Michigan 48307
www.ambersystems.com
p. 248-652-3140 ext. 224
f. 248-652-3402

59) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
Wait, isn't that espresso? You just serve really strong coffee in a
little cup... Is there more to it than that?
Dennis
I think many people think that any coffee served in those little cups 
is espresso...

60) From: Tom Ulmer
My itinerary was put together on short notice and included Continental value
flights. Travel there included a stop in Cleveland and back I was able to
wander the Houston airport for six hours. I look forward to visiting
Louisville and sharing a cup or two with you.
Cheers.

61) From: Ross
Aaron,
Single Origin and professional.  What?   My definition of professional, the 
guy you want flying the airplane with your family on board or the guy you 
want operating on your loved one, they are not necessarily the same guy.  I 
will take the fighter pilot as a pilot and the MD as the surgeon not the 
other way around.  Everyone makes the little mistakes, the professionals are 
valuable precisely because they are far less likely to make the granddaddy 
of all ****-ups.  I like my espresso "roast" blended. 
Ross


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