HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Vacuum Sealers?? Suggestions? (27 msgs / 616 lines)
1) From: DeCambre.Peter
I will be out of the office starting  11/26/2002 and will not return
until 12/02/2002.
I will respond to your message when I return.
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

2) From: DeCambre.Peter
I will be out of the office starting  11/26/2002 and will not return
until 12/02/2002.
I will respond to your message when I return.
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

3) From: Jason
Ok, I am looking for a Vacuum Sealer not just for some coffee, but
also for general household use.  I have never looked at them
previously, and am looking for suggestions, and what I need to watch
out for as gotchas with various brands, etc...

4) From: Lynne Biziewski
You'll get lots of good info from people here. My suggestion is to make sure
whatever you buy is convenient enough to sit on your counter top.
I got one a few years ago from one of the shopping networks (think it was
the only time I ever bought anything from them). I'd have to dig it out of
storage to find the name... see? It's a pain to have to do that everytime
you use it.
Mine works great - that's my only complaint. Eventually I'll sell mine & get
one I'll actually use, lol.
Lynne
On 5/9/07, Jason  wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Ken Mary
I have had good luck with the cheap Black&Decker from Walmart. But use only
the Foodsaver brand bags or rolls. The roll that was included with the B&D
gave me sealing problems. I recently had to trash some frozen fish that
seemed properly sealed at the time, but lost the seal while frozen and got
spoiled. It seems lately that even fish in the still sealed B&D bags tastes
spoiled. The fish in the Foodsaver bags still tastes fresh after 7 months
with no loss of seal. I am not a high volume user so no comment on the B&D's
durability.
--
----------
<Snip>
<Snip>

6) From: Jason
At the moment leaning toward Foodsaver, since it appears with theirs
they have bags and rolls of stuff to seal in.  The part that is
killing me is price range, $39 - $250 dollars for the home versions,
what exactly am I getting for paying more?  Does it suck better?  (pun
intended)

7) From: miKe mcKoffee
Long time FoodSaver user, well over a decade. Original unit still working,
upgraded to top model for additional features. Make sure whatever model you
get has accessory port. (lowest models don't) Want it for vac sealing
bottles (wine, olive oil...), canisters, canning jars etc.
Search the searchable archives for boo-koo FoodSaver discussions. (link in
sigtag)
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>
<Snip>

8) From: The Scarlet Wombat
I use a Food Saver, top model.  It is not all that good, but does the 
job.  I vacuum seal coffee in pint and quart Mason or Ball jars.  I had to 
purchase the device for the canning jar lids separately.  If you use good, 
clean flats and make sure the jar rims are scrupulously clean, you can keep 
coffee for quite a time.  There are reasons that vacuum sealing causes 
slight injury to the flavor, in drawing the vacuum, some of the most 
volatile oils are lost, however, letting beans sit around or freezing them 
does much more damage.  I tried some city roast Haraar that I had forgotton 
and left under a vacuum seal for 18 months, it was not quite as good as 
fresh, but the difference was truly slight.
Dan

9) From: Elliott H. O'Reilly
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I also have been a longtime user of the Foodsaver.  I got mine at Sam's
Club.  It's very good for storing meats for long periods in the freezer
without freezer burn.  I also use it to keep cheeses in the refrigerator
without developing mold for longer periods.  I agree with Mike about
ensuring that you get one with the accessory port.  For coffee gifts I often
seal the foil valve bags from SweetMaria's then use the bottle accessory to
fit over the valve and vacuum pack the coffee.  I designed a label on my
computer that I print out on Avery diskette labels.  My friends look at the
packaging and seem to think that I know what I am doing.
Elliott

10) From: Mike Chester
The Tilla Food Saver machines are available in lots of stores and Internet 
sites.  They are the standard for home use.  The differences between the 
different priced models are in the durability and the features.  The more 
expensive models may have variable power vacuuming for different functions, 
an accessory port for sealing bottles, canisters, etc., a built in holder 
and cutter for rolls of bags, and a removable vacuum channel (this is a 
handy feature that make it easier to clean if it sucks liquid into it.  You 
remove the chamber and put it into the dishwasher rather than having to try 
to put a cloth down into the machine for cleaning) The downside of the Food 
Saver is that it requires special "channel bags."  These are bags with 
ridges to allow the air to be sucked out from the bag before sealing.  This 
type of bag costs a lot more than smooth bags designed for commercial vacuum 
sealers, but they are available in many places.
If you buy a Food Saver, don't buy it from Wal-Mart or Sam's Club.  In order 
for Tilla to meet their price, they make cheaper models of the Food Saver. 
They look like models sold elsewhere, but the internal parts are plastic 
rather than metal.  I had one of these and it did not last.  I now have a 
Game Saver model which is made for Cabela's and it is excellent.  I don't 
know if any other retailers sell the cheapened models, but I know that Wally 
does.  This has been well documented.
While looking for a lower priced source for channel bags, I came across a 
company that sells them and also sells the commercial bags.  They sell a 
home model that uses the much cheaper commercial bags.http://www.sorbentsystems.com/sinbosealer.html Instead of using channels in 
the bag, it inserts a snorkel into the bag to draw out the air.  The snorkel 
is withdrawn just before sealing.  I don't believe it has an accessory port, 
though I am not sure.  I have not seen one of these in person and don't know 
how good they are, but if I were starting out now, I would consider them. 
The cost of bags is about half of what channel bags cost.
Hope that this helps.
Mike Chester

11) From: raymanowen
" boo-koo "- as in Beaucoup? -ro
On 5/9/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

12) From: Larry Johnson
Yes, beaucoup is French for boo-koo.
On 5/9/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Larry J
Never give a party if you will be the most interesting person there.  -
Mickey Friedman

13) From: Jason
So I bought a foodsaver last night and sealed up a LOT of beans... I
have to say that package is pretty cool, and I then went on a hunt for
other stuff to seal up, fun little job.  I think I am going to like
that machine, I sealed up close to about 20 lb of coffee for storage,
some I wanted to hold on to, other just to stay fresh till I am ready
to use it.
I like the machine!!!

14) From: Leo Zick
wonder if the ones with re-usable bags you can buy for clothing would work
better.
On 5/10/07, Jason  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Barry Luterman
Yes, the trick seems to be for me, is to leave large salvages on the seams. 
That is , don't be chintzy. Leave a larger margin of plastic on your bottom 
and top seals.

16) From: Scott Marquardt
On 5/9/07, The Scarlet Wombat  wrote:
<Snip>
Dan, I'm using your post as a springboard -- not meaning to attribute
anything to your personally.
I'll challenge any user of vacuum packing here to support vacuum
packing as credibly as Jim Schulman has supported the hypothesis that
freezing is a very successful storage method.http://www.home-barista.com/store-coffee-in-freezer.htmlWe all know the four main staling agents: oxygen, moisture,
temperature, and light. With temperature, oddly enough, the mythology
has taken an interesting course. I think the logic would work
something like this if we did a thought experiment:
Should we store coffee at 140 degrees?
"No, of course not."
130?
"Don't be silly."
OK, how about 100?
"For a couple days, maybe -- but no, that's not ideal."
80?
"Doable."
60?
"That'd be great."
50?
"Sure."
40?
"Um . . . probably OK."
30?
"Now wait a minute. Now you're talking about freezing it. No. No, you
can't do that."
;-)
So temperature reduction improves storage of coffee, until the magic
"freezing" temperature is reached, and then suddenly lower
temperatures have become evil, having mystical effects of doom on the
beans.
;-)
Seriously folks, if empirical work shows freezing to be a great thing,
what warranted reason remains for suspecting it of ill effect on our
coffees?
I'm finding all kinds of use for freezing now. For example, if for
some reason I need to do all my roasts for a particular occasion's
coffee ahead of time on a single day, perhaps I'll have a DP Yirg at
City that's ideal with an 8 day rest, and perhaps I'll want to blend
it with something from Indonesia that's taken much darker and is best
only 4 days after roasting. The solution? Freeze the latter for four
days immediately after roasting. Withdraw it at the 4 day mark and
it'll be perfect on day 8.
Hibernation. Couldn't be simpler.
Right?

17) From: raymanowen
Given that roasted coffee beans outgas CO2 when freshly roasted, what does
that say about the 90 - 95% you consider a success- the bags that maintain a
vacuum ? -ro
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

18) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ray he said green beans.

19) From: The Scarlet Wombat
This is an important point to me.  I do not vacuum beans until they are 
ready to drink and done outgassing.  If you vacuum beans that are still 
outgassing, you will ruin the vacuum.
As for the freezing versus vacuum issue, each of us will have to decide 
that for ourselves.  I have no room for an additional freezer, but do have 
shelf room for canning jars in a dark place for vacuumed coffee, so the 
answer is simple.
It would be very interesting to have somebody vacuum some roasted beans and 
freeze the same beans and then open them both six months later and brew or 
pull shots and test.  This would not be scientific because taste is 
subjective, but it would still be interesting.
Dan

20) From: Rich
I can find no fault with your logic here in regards to the potential benefits of freezing.  I think most of 
the urban legends surrounding the evils of frozen storage of any item are more related to the effects 
of slow freezing than to the freezing its self.
Rich
On Thu, 10 May 2007 23:43:15 -0500, Scott Marquardt wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

21) From: Scott Marquardt
On 5/11/07, The Scarlet Wombat  wrote:
<Snip>
What's the benefit of the vacuum?
I would have thought that the benefit of the vacuum is to
substantially purge the container of O2, not ensure that no CO2 from
the beans would later be present. If you draw the vacuum and seal,
you've achieved the first objective. Why would the second be
important?
<Snip>
Right -- but at least that decision can be an informed one.   ;-)
In general, I don't think most home roasters need to freeze because we
don't need to stockpile roasted beans in a way that would require long
storage. Heck, we just roast some more when we need 'em.
That's the fun of it, IMO!
<Snip>
Well, I do disagree with that. The testing might not be completely
scientific, but it could be substantially so. Reading Jim & Ken's
paper, it's clear that among other scientific measures, control for
variables was pretty tight. It's one thing to have a subjective means
of testing (and in the case of Jim, I'd trust his palate implicitly)
-- it'd be another if even before testing you weren't sure whether
you'd controlled things well enough to make that worth doing.
I'd put it this way: anyone wanting to test vacuum storage methods
would do well to pattern their work on Ken & Jim's, and improve on it
where possible. What would make such work valuable would be that
having put to rest some myths about freezing, someone could now put
ideas about vacuum storage to the test.
- Scott

22) From: Scott Marquardt
On 5/11/07, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
What interests me is that the temperature variable is something we
rarely think of as having huge effects on staling, because most of the
time we're using beans fast enough (for the amount we roast) that we
just don't consider it an issue. In fact, the moderate temperature of
room storage is a friend. If we have a roast that tastes best rested 8
days out, putting it on ice would stretch that 8 days to MONTHS.
So we find that temperature's lack of interest to us is an artifact of
how we take room temperature for granted as a comfortable rate control
for aging/outgassing/staling. We don't think about it because its our
friend.
But lo -- temperature turns out to be an even greater determinant of
staling rates (than O2) when we enter very cold territory. O2 is our
enemy at a room temperature that's generally our friend. But
temperature is a better friend than O2 is a worst enemy when we hit
those low temps if we want to hibernate things completely.
Something like that.   ;-)

23) From: Leo Zick
theres an article on home barista covering this.
freezing doesnt seem to harm roasted beans, or, as we are now seeing a trend
being created by Terrior, freezing green beans may have benefits too.
(personally, i have no interest in freezing green beans).  i do freeze
roasted beans and there isnt a taste difference. it comes in handy when i
know im traveling and wont have time the weekend before to roast.
i fill containers completely and freeze them right after roasting.  partial
co2 release occurs while they are freezing and forms a nice boundary layer
in the jar against the beans. while defrosting, the jars still pop open,
from 1-2 hours after removing from freezer, for up to 2 days, just as
freshly roasted beans do.
im sure there are the pro-vacuum peeps that vac seal and freeze, but im not
interested in spending more money on roasting right now..lol
scott,  i think youre saying o2 is an enemy at frozen temps because if there
is a lot left in a package while freezing, it can cause frostbite on the
beans, correct?  as i stated above, since the beans are outgasing a bit
after roasting, this shouldnt occur. however, freezing older beans will
certainly ruin the bean.
On 5/11/07, Scott Marquardt  wrote:
<Snip>

24) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
Uh, been there done that and posted about it here numerous times. Even
posted video results of shots vac & long frozen with buku crema, which you
cannot get with stale Arabica coffee period. Search the archives! Also
recently posted one on HB forum:http://www.home-barista.com/forums/coffee-to-freeze-or-not-to-freeze-t3540-20.html#43557
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/

25) From: miKe mcKoffee
Ok, I'll beg you pardon. That posting did not directly compare six month
"room temperature" vac stored and frozen. NO NEED. Other previous tests AND
posts of storage testings, including one test done by FOUR List memmbers
simultaneously, had already determined marked fall off of room temp' vac
stored roasts at a month. While it was better than valve bag or zip bag
stored, still quite noticable staling. (longest taken was 6 weeks)
Pacific Northwest Gathering Vhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGV.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

26) From: Floyd Lozano
Still I would give points for the artful merging of two dead-beaten horses
into a single thread!  What's the record? ;)   Maybe next time something
about freezing vacuum sealed roasted beans in an espresso roasted blend
containing robusta and then pulling shots in a non-PIDed vibration pump
plumbed in superauto with reverse osmosis filtered water as compared to
Starbucks.
-F
ps new standard disclaimer: this reply is intended in a tongue and cheek
manner, not as an attack on any particular opinion or viewpoint.  thank you
for your time and hopefully your laughter.
On 5/11/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

27) From: raymanowen
When I restock the pantry with greens- right after the eagle's flight path
includes this trailer- I promise the following statement will find
prominence in these parts:
"...six month "room temperature" vac stored and frozen. NO NEED."
When I started roasting from a position of understanding that there's a
little chemistry involved, I found it almost impossible to just stare at
roasted beans for even a couple of hours. The beauty of small roasters with
limited capacity is that, after one roast is finished, two more with cleanup
will fill out a couple of hours if you're trying to burn up some time.
Personally, I'd rather test the coffee rather than the storage.
If your storage methods are perfect, then what's the goal? The 500 lbs of
roasted coffee you have in your stash will be sitting there with no
perceptible change in taste. If your roasting wasn't perfect, the 500 lbs of
beans are Damned to taste bad for the duration.
Even if you have some new ideas about roasting, aren't you glad you already
have 500 lbs of SNAFU coffee? Then you won't have to worry about learning
something new, or trying a new idea.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Storage is under control- negligible need.


HomeRoast Digest