A statement made in the previous thread (noted above) to the effect that coffee brewed without a paper filter (e.g. french press or SwissGold) raises serum cholesterol levels. Is this assertion accurate? Even if the coffee is consumed black (i.e. sans milk/cream and sugar)? -- My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
Yes it is. I don't have the studies in front of me, but when the subject came up before, I checked it in my school library database. I don't think it has anything to do with any added cream or sugar. I don't have the time right now, but try Google Scholar. My decision was to take the Winnie the Pooh attitude - just retreat with something comforting (have some toast with honey, maybe) and all these concerns will disappear. Lynne (who is not in denial...) On 5/17/07, Kevin wrote: <Snip> -- "The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with machetes." Dave Barry
Lynne, I'll just give up red meat and drink my coffee. I'd rather have coffee than a steak anyway. -- My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
I was talking with my doctor's office about the results of having changed my acid-reflux medication because Aetna had decided to stop covering Nexium (which worked like a champ). I was trying some alternate medications that would be covered by Aetna, but they were not as effective as the Nexium had been. The nurse then asked me if I drank coffee, I said of course and then she said "well you will just need to stop drinking it to avoid problems with the alternate meds". I replied "I'd rather die" and she was sort of taken back for a moment. I explained to her that I'm way too much of a coffee-lover to give up that easily. Long story short, I switched to a med that works and am still enjoying my coffee each day. We (or maybe I) do get rather militant at the prospect of totally giving up coffee. I sure hope I never get into a situation where I would really have to give it up... Rick From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Kevin Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:29 AM To: homeroast Subject: Re: coffee and cholesterol was +french press Lynne, I'll just give up red meat and drink my coffee. 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Rick, There is a politically acceptable approach that can absolutely neutralize the enjoyment of life, but which makes everyone else happy. Simply remove the following: Meat (any sort) Fish (those too) Sugars (all of them, simple & complex) Carbohydrates (yep) Oils & Fats (all of them) Fruits (all of them) Vegetables (except the radish) Begerages (except Sanka) Then you must trade out all your hobbies and entertainment for books on nutrition. Finally, be sure to remove communications with any person, to eliminate the introduction of germs and virii. Enjoy the Water, Radish and Sanka Lifestyle!!! What could be better? Brett On 5/17/07, Coffeenut wrote: <Snip> -- Cheers, Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com
HA! That is SO funny - that's exactly what I thought when I read this the first time! The other alternative is to get a GOOD coffee maker with filters, like the Techivorm. I can't afford it, and am too happy w/my French Press & Mokapot. Lynne On 5/17/07, Kevin wrote: <Snip> -- "The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with machetes." Dave Barry
Lynne, I couldn't agree with your more with your brewing method. My wife and I do have a budget category for 'entertainment money' which each of us can save/spend on anything we want. I saved for a few months for the Technivorm (SwissGold) but if you don't need the convenience of a drip, the French Press makes a very similar cup. I use the French Press each Saturday morning when I make pancakes for my family. The extra body is a nice treat. The moka pot is used each night after dinner for a decaf Italian coffee night cap. -- My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
A statement made in the previous thread (noted above) to the effect that coffee brewed without a paper filter (e.g. french press or SwissGold) raises serum cholesterol levels. Is this assertion accurate? Even if the coffee is consumed black ( i.e. sans milk/cream and sugar)? it's true, but when I read up on it a long time ago, the contribution of unfiltered coffee to high cholesterol seemed very small, so i considered it a bit of marketing on behalf of filter-makers - actually swissgold makes the claim too. tom -- "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters" Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting - Tom & Maria http://www.sweetmarias.com Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
Thank you, Tom! That doesn't surprise me. I take every report on health with a grain of salt. (Well, w/my high BP... maybe I'll leave the salt out). There are so many conflicting studies out there - one could actually pick & choose... and it's important to find out the details of the study, too. Man, you are such an exceptional business person! Someone else would have pushed the line of Technivorms, or something else expensive. This has GOT to be the greatest business out there. I'm just starting out (w/a small business - soon, I hope) and you guys are my heroes - a model to try to follow!!! Lynne On 5/17/07, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote: <Snip> -- "The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with machetes." Dave Barry
Ok it can raise the cholesterol level. But how much now really? Is this something that is truly a concern or just more panic mongering? A cup of coffee has nowhere near the oils in it than say, a supersized double quarter pounder meal at McDogmeats. Technically yes that one drop of oil that sheened on top of your cup will increase your cholesterol a tiny bit, so the statement is true, but how significant is that increase? Kind of reminds me of the cranberry scare back in the 70's. Aaron
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 04:54:55PM -0400, Aaron wrote: <Snip> As I said in the other message I just posted, it could be about an 8% increase in men and 10% in women from boiled coffee, according to a pretty decent 2-year Norwegian study (Stensvold et al, 1989). I'm not mongering any panic, and whether it's truly a concern depends on your personal body chemistry, lifestyle, and priorities. But an 8-10% effect is ENORMOUS as these things go. (Keep in mind, this was a Norwegian study of Scandanavian-style boiled coffee, in Norwegians, and so it is not necessarily directly applicable to the rest of us. But French press does have similar amounts of the suspected compounds that boiled coffee has.) <Snip> It's not the oil that increases cholesterol. The oils in coffee are not particularly unhealthy, and there's not much of them. It's cafestol and kahweol, two non-fat compounds present in the coffee oils (diterpene molecules, technically) that seem to have the effects on cholesterol. They also seem to protect against certain cancers so depending on your situation you might be better off with unfiltered coffee. If you want the gory details, here's the (very lengthy) NIH review of the literature on cafestol and kahweol:http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf/Cafestol.pdfI'm not trying to change any minds here, but you asked and I'm answering with as much as I know. Don't shoot the messenger.
Randall I am not shooting the messenger, you didn't do the study. but I suspect the data a bit...not your repeating of it. Boiled coffee? Hmmm... wouldn't that turn bitter as you leech everything out of the bean? Not sure on that myself.. Ill read the article later on, thanks for the links. aaron
Randall - As I remember, folks got really hot under the collar when we discussed this the last time... guess the prospect of having to limit our coffee drinking put some people over the edge... can't be the caffeine, of course... Lynne <Snip> -- "The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with machetes." Dave Barry
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 05:49:36PM -0400, Aaron wrote: <Snip> I'll also point out that my wife didn't do the study, and doesn't really know much about it, so don't blame her either. Most of what I know I got from that NIH review that I linked to. (And no, I didn't actually read it all the way through -- talk about boring.) You can always gather your own data. Get your cholesterol tested, then switch to filtered coffee for a month or two (aeropress or drip), then get it tested again. That's better data than you'll find anywhere else, because it tells you what effect the stuff has on you in particular, rather than on "the average person" (who doesn't actually exist, but if he/she does, I'm sure he/she wouldn't be very interesting to hang out with). <Snip> In my opinion? Yes, but Scandanavians and cowboys seem to like it. They might just be in it for the buzz, though.
A point that seems to be missed here is that there is no data to support the statement that high cholesterol has any effect on health. The observed correlation between high cholesterol and heart disease could simply arise by both being due to the same causative factor -- high cholesterol levels are a symptom, and treating the symptom does nothing to mitigate the underlying cause (the corollary being that drinking unfiltered coffee does nothing to exacerbate the situation). I'll keep drinking espresso and French press coffee until I see some data to suggest that I might want to reevaluate that decision. Cameron -- ceforde
That's the one thing about life, nobody makes it out alive ... have another cup. This unfiltered Brazil Screen-Dried Moreninha Formosa is incredible as was the unfiltered Kenya AA Kiambu - Kimathi. "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, 'Holy sh*t, what a ride!'" - Mavis Leyrer Eddie On 5/17/07, Cameron Forde wrote: <Snip>
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 03:36:54PM -0700, Cameron Forde wrote: <Snip> I didn't miss that point. I mentioned it in one of my overly lengthy posts on the subject this evening. But since you've given me an excuse to make another overly length post, I'll address it another way: Chronic alcoholism is highly correlated with liver disease. But there are other ways to get liver disease. Nobody ever proved that excessive alcohol consumption causes liver disease, but it is generally accepted fact, for three reasons: (1) Very strong and consistent correlational evidence in humans, (2) controlled trials in animals (can't do controlled trials of something like that in humans), and (3) theoretical models that explain why it happens. None of that constitutes proof, just evidence. The same could be said of smoking and lung disease -- note how long people held out on the notion that there was nothing wrong with smoking because nothing had been proven. Now, the evidence for cholesterol being causal in heart disease is not nearly as strong as in either of those cases. Not even close. But we do have a lot of strong correlational data, some "sort of OK but not quite there yet" animal and in vitro studies, and a theoretical model that is still under some debate but seems pretty solid. Over time the weight of evidence may slowly mount until it becomes accepted fact, but it will probably never be proven, because almost nothing in medicine is ever proven. But I just asked my wife for her general feeling about the evidence, and she said "I'd say it's pretty strong." When asked if it was in the same ballpark as the alcohol/liver or smoking/cancer connections, though, she said "No, but those things are really, really clear." So there you have it. I don't have a crystal ball to tell me how the science will play out in the end, but frankly I'm very, very happy with my Aeropress coffee, and it's one less thing for me to worry about. We could have exactly the same discussion about global climate change, but please let's not.
Hi Randall, I'll start by saying that I don't know if high cholesterol levels can cause any form of heart disease. I'll add that I don't buy into your proof by analogy. My point is that there is a lack of data. This lack of data causes me to wonder... If I were a drug company that had a drug that is able to lower serum cholesterol levels and I'm currently marketing that drug for that ability, wouldn't it be in my interest to seek out data that would support claims that this drug reduces the risk of heart disease? Wouldn't that make me a lot more money? Back to my french press of Harar Green Strip at city+ Cameron On 5/17/07, Randall Nortman wrote: <Snip> -- ceforde
Hello Aaron, My comments are interspersed with your note, below; On Thursday 17 May 2007 13:54, Aaron wrote: <Snip> When I got ahold of the NIH overview of the available toxicology studies, I read through the whole thing, start to finish. It does appear that all studies examined (medium-sized list) point to either a rise, a significant rise, or no change in cholesterol in relation to the amount of cafestol and kahweol consumed. The NIH overview also pointed out that Scandinavian or Turkish-style boiled coffees tend to have the most cafestol and kahweol concentrations in them. The operation of the two compounds (but mostly cafestol) apparently suppresses bile acid synthesis, and this might be responsible for the elevation of cholesterol. Here's a reference for just one study's abstract (the conclusion at the end is the readable part, the rest is all biochem):http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/17/11/3064Cafestol and kahweol can be easily filtered out by a paper filter and thus normal, non-press coffee is, according to the NIH overview, just fine for a human's cholesterol. <Snip> It's not because it *contains* cholesterol, but because it blocks your body's ability to effectively deal with cholesterol. It acts like a drug that screws around with your body chemistry but doesn't supply it directly, like some foods do. Short summary of the NIH report for those who don't want to wade through 29 pages: . Boiled coffee has the highest concentrations of cafestol and kahweol. . The two oils have been patented for use as sunscreen. (!) . The two oils *might* be a treatment for "malignant oral lesions" . The two oils have demonstrated anti-carcinogenic (anti-mammary tumours, anti-buccal pouch and lip tumours, sort of anti-liver cancer, anti-colon cancer) properties. . There is a direct relationship between consumption of these two oils in normal boiled coffee and elevated cholesterol by up to 8% in Norwegian men, and 10% in Norwegian women. . French press coffee has 3.5mg/cup of cafestol and kahweol, each . Boiled coffee has from 5.3mg/cup (Turkish) to 7.2mg/cup (Scandinavian) . Instant, drip-filtered, and percolated coffee have negligible amounts. . Espresso only has 1mg/cup. (!) . Filter coffee only seemed to make a difference in Norwegian women. . The two oils can raise triglycerides by a lot (71% or so) . Robusta has wayyyyy less and also does wayyyy less to cholesterol. . If you stop cafestol/kahweol intake, you're back to normal within 14 weeks or less. . Nobody knows what "acute exposure" of pure cafestol and kahweol does to people. . Other things we don't know: - Effects on reproduction. - Effects of long-term (chronic) exposure. - Carcinogenicity of the two oils. One thing I didn't understand was this statement: "The amount of cafestol and kahweol can be significantly reduced by roasting the green coffee (Kolling-Spear et al., 1999)." (p. 9) What the heck does that mean? Darker roasts have less, or is there some kind of green coffee liquid that itself can be roasted?
I understand that the body uses cholesterol to repair the cardiovascular system and other organs of the body. High cholesterol is more of a sympton than a root cause of heart disease. Eggs when from something bad to eat due to cholesterol to now having a reputation as a "Super Food". You can find studies that show low cholesterol (less than 180) is correlated with heart attacks and strokes. Probably because it is not enough cholestrol to keep the cardio vascular system maintained. I believe that coffee is simply a seed of a fruit that has many health benefits. I went through a period when I drank almost no coffee. Over a year. I find I am heathlier and feel better when I drink coffee daily. However I probably only drink coffee in moderation compared to some. I only have one strong 6 ounce mug of good fresh roasted coffee per day. Perhaps 2 mugs on a weekend day. The anti oxidants in coffee will help keep your cholesterol from oxidizing and forming plaque. If you don't have sufficients antioxidants you will form plaque in your arteries even with low cholesterol levels. Blake
Rick..what did you switch to. I have Nexium and Aetna and coffee also. Wes ----- Original Message ---- From: Coffeenut To: homeroast Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:24:01 PM Subject: RE: coffee and cholesterol was +french press I was talking with my doctor's office about the results of having changed my acid-reflux medication because Aetna had decided to stop covering Nexium (which worked like a champ). I was trying some alternate medications that would be covered by Aetna, but they were not as effective as the Nexium had been. The nurse then asked me if I drank coffee, I said of course and then she said "well you will just need to stop drinking it to avoid problems with the alternate meds". I replied "I'd rather die" and she was sort of taken back for a moment. I explained to her that I'm way too much of a coffee-lover to give up that easily. Long story short, I switched to a med that works and am still enjoying my coffee each day. We (or maybe I) do get rather militant at the prospect of totally giving up coffee. I sure hope I never get into a situation where I would really have to give it up... Rick From: homeroast-admin [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Kevin Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:29 AM To: homeroast Subject: Re: coffee and cholesterol was +french press Lynne, I'll just give up red meat and drink my coffee. I'd rather have coffee than a steak anyway. -- My home coffee roasting blog:http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid96545433">http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/KevinBe a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid96545433
The highest concentration of these constituents occurs in Scandinavian-style (cafestol: 7.2 mg/cup [cup = 150 mL]; kahweol: 7.2 mg/cup) and Turkish-style (cafestol: 5.3 mg/cup; kahweol: 5.4 mg/cup) boiled coffee, while instant, drip-filtered, and percolated coffee brews contain negligible amounts. French press coffee has an average cafestol content of 3.5 mg/cup and kahweol content of 4.4 mg/cup, while espresso coffee has 1 mg/cup of each diterpene (Gross et al., 1997; Urgert et al., 1995b). Regular and decaffeinated coffees also have similar diterpene contents. In regular coffee grounds, average levels of 486 mg/100 g (0.486%) cafestol and 469 mg/100 g (0.469%) kahweol were found. In decaffeinated coffee grounds, the values were 485 mg and 411 mg per 100 g (0.485% and 0.411%), respectively (Urgert et al., 1995b). The amount of cafestol and kahweol can be significantly reduced by roasting the green coffee (Kölling-Spear et al., 1999). Re above.......espresso seems to have the lowest amounts...phew!! And if, as the last sentence suggests,the coffee is cremated well past Vienna we should be ok!!!!!!!!
With my coffee intake increased since home roasting, the Mazzer, Tech Vorm, and a little Capresso Luxe thingy, I have had to change some of my self medication standards. A tsp of apple cider vinegar for the times I sample the heel of a late-started loaf of whole grain bread and wake up later thinking I swallowed some Drain-O. I'm a little slow. I know that a Calcium capsule will buffer the battery acid perfectly well. But I forget, then I pay sometimes. I pity people that imagine they can't drink coffee after a certain time. It just became tomorrow, and this Lot 30 is sumptuous as a 16oz Steinway. Great way to kick back and relax I suppose I could set an alarm to ring my doorbell* so that I'd know when it's time to quit with the coffee for a given period. No sweat. That would just signal the start of the following period, and the coffee continues. *The doorbell is discordant, like the horns on the '57 Chrysler 300-C, only about four octaves lower. One note is a 16ft closed, mitered flue pipe on a 10.5" scale, the other note is a 4ft open flue pipe on 5.5" scale. I built the doorbell for All Hallows Eve and a party we had after we moved in in '73. "My attic, my doorbell" The 4ft speaks first, then the 16ft overwhelms the hum with a 32ft vibration. I could tune them, but never did. Then the attic insulator jugheads wrecked my bellows that blew the pipes. No "Ding Dong - Avon Calling," more like "Hmmm - Rumble, Avon Running!" Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! Left a sample and brochure in your door...
Eddie, I admire the way you put things in perspective! Time to enjoy some Colombian Exselso 13556 at FC brewed up in the Moccamaster CD. What a way to start the day! On 5/17/07, Eddie Dove wrote: <Snip>
You have some Excelso left? Unfair - that's so wrong.... What a great cup! For me it's Brazil Fazenda Brauna Flatbean, roasted FC+ - it's yummy but was taken a tad too dark... (Did I say THAT?) Brett On 5/18/07, Kevin wrote: <Snip> -- Cheers, Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com
Brett, The Excelso was roasted by a neighbor/friend of mine via the HGDB method. He did a very nice job. It's a great cup. My friend stopped by with it last night because we car pool and all week I was complaining that I hadn't had time the past weekend to roast (Mother's Day and all). The funny thing was, when he stopped by I was roasting (1 lb of the Agua Tiba to FC and 1/2 pound of Misty Vally to City+). Kevin
<Snip> The body does not PRODUCE bad cholesterol. We EAT bad (oxidised) cholesterol in animal products cooked at high temperature. This includes eggs. Hardboiled and scrambled eggs have the greatest potential for oxidised cholesterol, raw or sunny side up has the lowest potential. Eggs can still be a superfood if we do not destroy it first. --
What about eggs over easy?? ;-) Also, hardboiled eggs are 'boiled' usually at 212 F, is that a 'high' temperature when compared to frying, baking (350F+), or broiling (450F+)? On 5/18/07, Ken Mary wrote: <Snip> -- My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
<Snip> You ask too many questions. :-) The poison is in the dosage. --
Ken, You may find it hard to believe, but that's not the first time I've been told that.... ;-) Kevin
Ken Mary wrote: <Snip> I'm not a doctor or even that knowledgeable but I do know that dietary cholesterol has no effect on most people's cholesterol levels. I have high cholesterol, drastically changed my diet and it did nothing. My doctor said this is the case with most people and I've read this many times. Whether it's genetics or whatever I'll leave that to those more knowledgeable. I'm hoping that the 1 1/2 cups of regular Swiss Golded brew I have everyday isn't going to affect my quality of life when I'm older. Respectfully, since I know what you've gone through recently, JeffO
--Apple-Mail-63--660109339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset -ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Actually, that's only partly true. You can get high bad cholesterol levels without ingesting a molecule of cholesterol or even animal products: either hereditarily or via excessive consumption of saturated fats and any consumption of trans fats (which can both be vegetable in origin--e.g., coconut & palm oil and Crisco, margarine, or commercial peanut butters that are hydrogenated). The liver does make all three kinds of cholesterol, which to varying degrees are necessary for tissue repair and maintenance; but ideally you want it to make higher levels of large-particle HDLs, which bond to the bad cholesterols and triglycerides and carry them out of the body. Cooking per se does not oxidize cholesterol, and oxidation is a bad thing only when it occurs to your own cells (free radicals are produced, which aggravate inflammation and even spur the response). Oxidation does not turn HDL into LDL. Raw and runny eggs also can make you sick from salmonella, and it is very, very difficult to ascertain which eggs are safe because the salmonella comes from the chicken (and almost all chickens, even free range, can be infected). Nothing is entirely safe when overconsumed, and conversely there are very few edible substances that are entirely bad for you. Use common sense and moderation, and listen to your body. Your mileage may vary, as the car ads say. On May 18, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Ken Mary wrote: <Snip> Sandy Andina www.sandyandina.com www.myspace.com/sandyandina --Apple-Mail-63--660109339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset O-8859-1 Actually, that's only partly = true. You can get high bad cholesterol levels without ingesting a = molecule of cholesterol or even animal products: either hereditarily = or via excessive consumption of saturated fats and any consumption of = trans fats (which can both be vegetable in origin--e.g., coconut & = palm oil and Crisco, margarine, or commercial peanut butters that are = hydrogenated). The liver does make all three kinds of cholesterol, = which to varying degrees are necessary for tissue repair and = maintenance; but ideally you want it to make higher levels of = large-particle HDLs, which bond to the bad cholesterols and = triglycerides and carry them out of the body. Cooking per se does not = oxidize cholesterol, and oxidation is a bad thing only when it occurs to = your own cells (free radicals are produced, which aggravate inflammation = and even spur the response). Oxidation does not turn HDL into LDL. = Raw and runny eggs also can make you sick from salmonella, and it is = very, very difficult to ascertain which eggs are safe because the = salmonella comes from the chicken (and almost all chickens, even free = range, can be infected). Nothing is entirely safe when = overconsumed, and conversely there are very few edible substances that = are entirely bad for you. Use common sense and moderation, and listen = to your body. Your mileage may vary, as the car ads say.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I have some too that and some IMV don't forget my last 2# of Bug or my 2# of geisha ....LOL I am a micro chasm of coffee's from the last year almost everything I have is sold out I'm looking forward to getting some new stock shortly Dennis AKA FC1(SW/AW) Dennis W. True Safety Dept USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) FPO AE 09532-2830 HG/DB and Z&D roasting in the Atlantic! "homeward bound 4 and counting down..." You have some Excelso left? Unfair - that's so wrong.... What a great cup! For me it's Brazil Fazenda Brauna Flatbean, roasted FC+ - it's yummy but was taken a tad too dark... (Did I say THAT?) Brett
On 5/17/07, Randall Nortman wrote: <Snip> It seems to me that it would be difficult to have a meaningful test. A serious test with a single-sample data set would be hard to do. Wouldn't you have to do EVERYTHING in your life exactly the same for those two test months? Same food and exercise EXACTLY the same on the same days of the month? And how repeatable are the cholesterol tests? Are there variations between labs? Safe Journeys and Sweet Music Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On Mon, May 21, 2007 at 11:13:05AM -0500, Justin Marquez wrote: <Snip> No, it wouldn't be perfect. Researchers call this sort of thing a "case study", and it's not regarded as a good source of information about populations in general. But I'm saying that an imperfect study of a single person is probably more relevant *to that person* than a perfect study of a thousand people. Of course, that depends a lot on what you're studying, but blood cholesterol and cardiovascular health are things that vary a *lot* from person to person, and so in this case, data you have about yourself could be quite a bit more valuable than data about population averages, even if it isn't suitable to be published in an academic journal. By the way, this would not be a single sample -- you would have at least two data points (before and after). No reason you couldn't take a thousand measurements of yourself doing the experiment many times over to get better data. Well, no reason other than that your insurance company might get a bit suspicious if you tried to bill all that blood work to them. The point is this: Researchers study populations, but populations are made of individuals, and the variation among individuals is often huge. One person eats a buttered steak every day and never has high cholesterol, and another might be a vegan who exercises regularly and never enters the same room as a stick of butter, but who has high cholesterol. Those two people are at the extremes, and they just get lost in the noise of these large-scale population studies.
Mathematics and statics brand the cholesterol charade as one more subject for lab testing. Lab tests can be worse than useless, especially medical tests when a limited sample is taken. I hope my "cholesterol numbers" aren't bad because of coffee. Wouldn't be prudent. Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! People should think things out fresh and not just accept conventional terms and the conventional way of doing things. - -R. Buckminster Fuller
The reason for my continued beating on this dead horse can be summed up with this scenario: What if rather than causing heart disease, high cholesterol levels were caused by heart disease? What if the body produced cholesterol as a way of signaling there is a problem? Under that scenario wouldn't it be a little ill-advised to go taking medicine to reduce those levels? As I understand it, there is no data to indicate that this scenario is correct, any more than the data support the current thinking (that high cholesterol levels cause heart disease). Given that at the moment, we just don't know, isn't it more prudent to take action to lower the risk of heart disease by increasing exercise levels and let the cholesterol levels sort themselves out? It just seems to me that there is an attitude held by many that life's problems can be fixed with a pill, when the solution to the problem lies elsewhere. Done flogging that horse. Now to get some of that new Harar (which is a horse of a different colour). Cameron
I don't know if the causality is known, but i think the thinking is: high cholesterol is a possible indicator / precursor to development of heart disease. Whether it causes it or it's a symptom that a physiological process is underway that leads to is, with high cholesterol being the signal (be it via byproduct or presence) that you're on that road now, I don't know. Can't really know for sure, but if research like this finds its way into one or more peer-reviewed medical journals then one may argue the reliability of the conclusions drawn increases (they are after all, experts, insofar as one could be considered an expert in the magical inner workings of the human body - who was it that said that to a sufficiently primitive civilization, science and magic are indistinguishable?) Yeah, we won't know for sure til we know for sure. It's not as clear cut as say, 'falling from great heights doesn't cause death, it's the sudden stop at the end'. Does that make gravity deadly? -F ps i am a lazy man, but it you told me my choices were give up coffee or take up exercise, i'd be a far-runnin' fool! On 5/22/07, Cameron Forde wrote: <Snip>
Only when consumed in large quantities or too quickly... On 5/22/07, Floyd Lozano wrote: Does that make gravity deadly?
Gravity is rarely deadly. It's usualy the quick stop at the end of the trip.... Brett On 5/22/07, Larry Dorman wrote: <Snip> -- Cheers, Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com
--Apple-Mail-85--290986689 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset -ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Ah, and therein lies the mystery. We're still dealing with a chicken- or-the-egg situation (pun intended). On May 21, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Cameron Forde wrote: <Snip> Sandy Andina www.sandyandina.com www.myspace.com/sandyandina --Apple-Mail-85--290986689 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset O-8859-1 Ah, and therein lies the = mystery. We're still dealing with a chicken-or-the-egg situation (pun = intended). On May 21, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Cameron Forde = wrote: