HomeRoast Digest


Topic: coffee and cholesterol was +french press (41 msgs / 1191 lines)
1) From: Kevin
A statement made in the previous thread (noted above) to the effect that
coffee brewed without a paper filter (e.g. french press or SwissGold) raises
serum cholesterol levels.  Is this assertion accurate?  Even if the coffee
is consumed black (i.e. sans milk/cream and sugar)?
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

2) From: Lynne Biziewski
Yes it is. I don't have the studies in front of me, but when the subject
came up before, I checked it in my school library database. I don't think it
has anything to do with any added cream or sugar.
I don't have the time right now, but try Google Scholar.
My decision was to take the Winnie the Pooh attitude - just retreat with
something comforting (have some toast with honey, maybe) and all these
concerns will disappear.
Lynne
(who is not in denial...)
On 5/17/07, Kevin  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of
offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with
machetes."
Dave Barry

3) From: Kevin
Lynne,
I'll just give up red meat and drink my coffee.  I'd rather have coffee than
a steak anyway.
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

4) From: Coffeenut
I was talking with my doctor's office about the results of having changed my
acid-reflux medication because Aetna had decided to stop covering Nexium
(which worked like a champ).  I was trying some alternate medications that
would be covered by Aetna, but they were not as effective as the Nexium had
been.  The nurse then asked me if I drank coffee, I said of course and then
she said "well you will just need to stop drinking it to avoid problems with
the alternate meds".  I replied "I'd rather die" and she was sort of taken
back for a moment.  I explained to her that I'm way too much of a
coffee-lover to give up that easily.  Long story short, I switched to a med
that works and am still enjoying my coffee each day.
We (or maybe I) do get rather militant at the prospect of totally giving up
coffee.  I sure hope I never get into a situation where I would really have
to give it up...
Rick
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:29 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: coffee and cholesterol was +french press
Lynne,
 
I'll just give up red meat and drink my coffee.  I'd rather have coffee than
a steak anyway.
 
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin 
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5) From: Brett Mason
Rick,
There is a politically acceptable approach that can absolutely neutralize
the enjoyment of life, but which makes everyone else happy.  Simply remove
the following:
Meat (any sort)
Fish (those too)
Sugars (all of them, simple & complex)
Carbohydrates (yep)
Oils & Fats (all of them)
Fruits (all of them)
Vegetables (except the radish)
Begerages (except Sanka)
Then you must trade out all your hobbies and entertainment for books on
nutrition.
Finally, be sure to remove communications with any person, to eliminate the
introduction of germs and virii.
Enjoy the Water, Radish and Sanka Lifestyle!!!
What could be better?
Brett
On 5/17/07, Coffeenut  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

6) From: Lynne Biziewski
HA! That is SO funny - that's exactly what I thought when I read this the
first time!
The other alternative is to get a GOOD coffee maker with filters, like the
Techivorm.
I can't afford it, and am too happy w/my French Press & Mokapot.
Lynne
On 5/17/07, Kevin  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of
offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with
machetes."
Dave Barry

7) From: Kevin
Lynne,
I couldn't agree with your more with your brewing method.  My wife and I do
have a budget category for 'entertainment money' which each of us can
save/spend on anything we want.  I saved for a few months for the Technivorm
(SwissGold) but if you don't need the convenience of a drip, the French
Press makes a very similar cup.  I use the French Press each Saturday
morning when I make pancakes for my family.  The extra body is a nice
treat.  The moka pot is used each night after dinner for a decaf Italian
coffee night cap.
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

8) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
A statement made in the previous thread (noted above) to the effect 
that coffee brewed without a paper filter (e.g. french press or 
SwissGold) raises serum cholesterol levels.  Is this assertion 
accurate?  Even if the coffee is consumed black ( i.e. sans 
milk/cream and sugar)?
it's true, but when I read up on it a long time ago, the contribution 
of unfiltered coffee to high cholesterol seemed very small, so i 
considered it a bit of marketing on behalf of filter-makers - 
actually swissgold makes the claim too.
tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com

9) From: Lynne Biziewski
Thank you, Tom!
That doesn't surprise me. I take every report on health with a grain of
salt. (Well, w/my high BP... maybe I'll leave the salt out). There are so
many conflicting studies out there - one could actually pick & choose... and
it's important to find out the details of the study, too.
Man, you are such an exceptional business person! Someone else would have
pushed the line of Technivorms, or something else expensive.
This has GOT to be the greatest business out there.
I'm just starting out (w/a small business - soon, I hope) and you guys are
my heroes - a model to try to follow!!!
Lynne
On 5/17/07, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of
offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with
machetes."
Dave Barry

10) From: Aaron
Ok it can raise the cholesterol level. But how much now really?  Is this 
something that is truly a concern or just more panic mongering?
A cup of coffee has nowhere near the oils in it than say, a supersized 
double quarter pounder meal at McDogmeats.  Technically yes that one 
drop of oil that sheened on top of your cup will increase your 
cholesterol a tiny bit, so the statement is true, but how significant is 
that increase?
Kind of reminds me of the cranberry scare back in the 70's.
Aaron

11) From: Randall Nortman
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 04:54:55PM -0400, Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
As I said in the other message I just posted, it could be about an 8%
increase in men and 10% in women from boiled coffee, according to a
pretty decent 2-year Norwegian study (Stensvold et al, 1989).  I'm not
mongering any panic, and whether it's truly a concern depends on your
personal body chemistry, lifestyle, and priorities.  But an 8-10%
effect is ENORMOUS as these things go.  (Keep in mind, this was a
Norwegian study of Scandanavian-style boiled coffee, in Norwegians,
and so it is not necessarily directly applicable to the rest of us.
But French press does have similar amounts of the suspected compounds
that boiled coffee has.)
<Snip>
It's not the oil that increases cholesterol.  The oils in coffee are
not particularly unhealthy, and there's not much of them.  It's
cafestol and kahweol, two non-fat compounds present in the coffee oils
(diterpene molecules, technically) that seem to have the effects on
cholesterol.  They also seem to protect against certain cancers so
depending on your situation you might be better off with unfiltered
coffee.
If you want the gory details, here's the (very lengthy) NIH review of
the literature on cafestol and kahweol:http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf/Cafestol.pdfI'm not trying to change any minds here, but you asked and I'm
answering with as much as I know.  Don't shoot the messenger.

12) From: Aaron
Randall I am not shooting the messenger, you didn't do the study. but I 
suspect the data a bit...not your repeating of it.
Boiled coffee?  Hmmm... wouldn't that turn bitter as you leech 
everything out of the bean?  Not sure on that myself..     Ill read the 
article later on, thanks for the links.
aaron

13) From: Lynne Biziewski
Randall -
As I remember, folks got really hot under the collar when we discussed this
the last time... guess the prospect of having to limit our coffee drinking
put some people over the edge...
can't be the caffeine, of course...
Lynne
<Snip>
-- 
"The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of
offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with
machetes."
Dave Barry

14) From: Randall Nortman
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 05:49:36PM -0400, Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
I'll also point out that my wife didn't do the study, and doesn't
really know much about it, so don't blame her either.  Most of what I
know I got from that NIH review that I linked to.  (And no, I didn't
actually read it all the way through -- talk about boring.)
You can always gather your own data.  Get your cholesterol tested,
then switch to filtered coffee for a month or two (aeropress or drip),
then get it tested again.  That's better data than you'll find
anywhere else, because it tells you what effect the stuff has on you
in particular, rather than on "the average person" (who doesn't
actually exist, but if he/she does, I'm sure he/she wouldn't be very
interesting to hang out with).
<Snip>
In my opinion?  Yes, but Scandanavians and cowboys seem to like it.
They might just be in it for the buzz, though.

15) From: Cameron Forde
A point that seems to be missed here is that there is no data to
support the statement that high cholesterol has any effect on health.
The observed correlation between high cholesterol and heart disease
could simply arise by both being due to the same causative factor --
high cholesterol levels are a symptom, and treating the symptom does
nothing to mitigate the underlying cause (the corollary being that
drinking unfiltered coffee does nothing to exacerbate the situation).
I'll keep drinking espresso and French press coffee until I see some
data to suggest that I might want to reevaluate that decision.
Cameron
-- 
ceforde

16) From: Eddie Dove
That's the one thing about life, nobody makes it out alive ... have another cup.
This unfiltered Brazil Screen-Dried Moreninha Formosa is incredible
 as was the unfiltered Kenya AA Kiambu - Kimathi.
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a
well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting, 'Holy sh*t, what a ride!'" - Mavis Leyrer
Eddie
On 5/17/07, Cameron Forde  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Randall Nortman
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 03:36:54PM -0700, Cameron Forde wrote:
<Snip>
I didn't miss that point.  I mentioned it in one of my overly lengthy
posts on the subject this evening.  But since you've given me an
excuse to make another overly length post, I'll address it another
way: Chronic alcoholism is highly correlated with liver disease.  But
there are other ways to get liver disease.  Nobody ever proved that
excessive alcohol consumption causes liver disease, but it is
generally accepted fact, for three reasons: (1) Very strong and
consistent correlational evidence in humans, (2) controlled trials in
animals (can't do controlled trials of something like that in humans),
and (3) theoretical models that explain why it happens.  None of that
constitutes proof, just evidence.  The same could be said of smoking
and lung disease -- note how long people held out on the notion that
there was nothing wrong with smoking because nothing had been proven.
Now, the evidence for cholesterol being causal in heart disease is not
nearly as strong as in either of those cases.  Not even close.  But we
do have a lot of strong correlational data, some "sort of OK but not
quite there yet" animal and in vitro studies, and a theoretical model
that is still under some debate but seems pretty solid.  Over time the
weight of evidence may slowly mount until it becomes accepted fact,
but it will probably never be proven, because almost nothing in
medicine is ever proven.  But I just asked my wife for her general
feeling about the evidence, and she said "I'd say it's pretty strong."
When asked if it was in the same ballpark as the alcohol/liver or
smoking/cancer connections, though, she said "No, but those things are
really, really clear."  So there you have it.
I don't have a crystal ball to tell me how the science will play out
in the end, but frankly I'm very, very happy with my Aeropress coffee,
and it's one less thing for me to worry about.
We could have exactly the same discussion about global climate change,
but please let's not.

18) From: Cameron Forde
Hi Randall,
I'll start by saying that I don't know if high cholesterol levels can
cause any form of heart disease.  I'll add that I don't buy into your
proof by analogy.  My point is that there is a lack of data.  This
lack of data causes me to wonder...  If I were a drug company that had
a drug that is able to lower serum cholesterol levels and I'm
currently marketing that drug for that ability, wouldn't it be in my
interest to seek out data that would support claims that this drug
reduces the risk of heart disease?  Wouldn't that make me a lot more
money?
Back to my french press of Harar Green Strip at city+
Cameron
On 5/17/07, Randall Nortman  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
ceforde

19) From: Marc Tooley
Hello Aaron,
My comments are interspersed with your note, below;
On Thursday 17 May 2007 13:54, Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
When I got ahold of the NIH overview of the available toxicology 
studies, I read through the whole thing, start to finish. It does 
appear that all studies examined (medium-sized list) point to either a 
rise, a significant rise, or no change in cholesterol in relation to 
the amount of cafestol and kahweol consumed.
The NIH overview also pointed out that Scandinavian or Turkish-style 
boiled coffees tend to have the most cafestol and kahweol 
concentrations in them.
The operation of the two compounds (but mostly cafestol) apparently 
suppresses bile acid synthesis, and this might be responsible for the 
elevation of cholesterol.
Here's a reference for just one study's abstract (the conclusion at the 
end is the readable part, the rest is all biochem):http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/17/11/3064Cafestol and kahweol can be easily filtered out by a paper filter and 
thus normal, non-press coffee is, according to the NIH overview, just 
fine for a human's cholesterol.
<Snip>
It's not because it *contains* cholesterol, but because it blocks your 
body's ability to effectively deal with cholesterol. It acts like a 
drug that screws around with your body chemistry but doesn't supply it 
directly, like some foods do.
Short summary of the NIH report for those who don't want to wade through 
29 pages:
. Boiled coffee has the highest concentrations of cafestol and kahweol.
. The two oils have been patented for use as sunscreen. (!)
. The two oils *might* be a treatment for "malignant oral lesions"
. The two oils have demonstrated anti-carcinogenic (anti-mammary 
tumours, anti-buccal pouch and lip tumours, sort of anti-liver cancer, 
anti-colon cancer) properties.
. There is a direct relationship between consumption of these two oils 
in normal boiled coffee and elevated cholesterol by up to 8% in 
Norwegian men, and 10% in Norwegian women.
. French press coffee has 3.5mg/cup of cafestol and kahweol, each
. Boiled coffee has from 5.3mg/cup (Turkish) to 7.2mg/cup (Scandinavian)
. Instant, drip-filtered, and percolated coffee have negligible amounts.
. Espresso only has 1mg/cup. (!)
. Filter coffee only seemed to make a difference in Norwegian women.
. The two oils can raise triglycerides by a lot (71% or so)
. Robusta has wayyyyy less and also does wayyyy less to cholesterol.
. If you stop cafestol/kahweol intake, you're back to normal within 14 
weeks or less.
. Nobody knows what "acute exposure" of pure cafestol and kahweol does 
to people.
. Other things we don't know:
- Effects on reproduction.
- Effects of long-term (chronic) exposure.
- Carcinogenicity of the two oils.
One thing I didn't understand was this statement:
"The amount of cafestol and kahweol can be significantly reduced by 
roasting the green coffee (Kolling-Spear et al., 1999)." (p. 9)
What the heck does that mean? Darker roasts have less, or is there some 
kind of green coffee liquid that itself can be roasted?

20) From: Blake R.
I understand that the body uses cholesterol to repair the cardiovascular 
system and other organs of the body.  High cholesterol is more of a sympton 
than a root cause of heart disease.  Eggs when from something bad to eat due 
to cholesterol to now having a reputation as a "Super Food".  You can find 
studies that show low cholesterol (less than 180) is correlated with heart 
attacks and strokes.  Probably because it is not enough cholestrol to keep 
the cardio vascular system maintained.  I believe that coffee is simply a 
seed of a fruit that has many health benefits.  I went through a period when 
I drank almost no coffee.  Over a year.  I find I am heathlier and feel 
better when I drink coffee daily.  However I probably only drink coffee in 
moderation compared to some.  I only have one strong 6 ounce mug of good 
fresh roasted coffee per day.  Perhaps 2 mugs on a weekend day.  The anti 
oxidants in coffee will help keep your cholesterol from oxidizing and 
forming plaque.  If you don't have sufficients antioxidants you will form 
plaque in your arteries even with low cholesterol levels.
Blake

21) From: Wes Tyler
Rick..what did you switch to. I have Nexium and Aetna and coffee also.
Wes
----- Original Message ----
From: Coffeenut 
To: homeroast
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:24:01 PM
Subject: RE: coffee and cholesterol was +french press
I was talking with my doctor's office about the results of having changed my
acid-reflux medication because Aetna had decided to stop covering Nexium
(which worked like a champ).  I was trying some alternate medications that
would be covered by Aetna, but they were not as effective as the Nexium had
been.  The nurse then asked me if I drank coffee, I said of course and then
she said "well you will just need to stop drinking it to avoid problems with
the alternate meds".  I replied "I'd rather die" and she was sort of taken
back for a moment.  I explained to her that I'm way too much of a
coffee-lover to give up that easily.  Long story short, I switched to a med
that works and am still enjoying my coffee each day.
We (or maybe I) do get rather militant at the prospect of totally giving up
coffee.  I sure hope I never get into a situation where I would really have
to give it up...
Rick
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:29 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: coffee and cholesterol was +french press
Lynne,
 
I'll just give up red meat and drink my coffee.  I'd rather have coffee than
a steak anyway.
 
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid96545433">http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/KevinBe a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid96545433

22) From: npowen
The highest concentration of these
constituents occurs in Scandinavian-style (cafestol: 7.2 mg/cup [cup = 150 mL]; kahweol: 7.2
mg/cup) and Turkish-style (cafestol: 5.3 mg/cup; kahweol: 5.4 mg/cup) boiled coffee, while
instant, drip-filtered, and percolated coffee brews contain negligible amounts. French press
coffee has an average cafestol content of 3.5 mg/cup and kahweol content of 4.4 mg/cup, while
espresso coffee has 1 mg/cup of each diterpene (Gross et al., 1997; Urgert et al., 1995b).
Regular and decaffeinated coffees also have similar diterpene contents. In regular coffee
grounds, average levels of 486 mg/100 g (0.486%) cafestol and 469 mg/100 g (0.469%) kahweol
were found. In decaffeinated coffee grounds, the values were 485 mg and 411 mg per 100 g
(0.485% and 0.411%), respectively (Urgert et al., 1995b). The amount of cafestol and kahweol
can be significantly reduced by roasting the green coffee (Kölling-Spear et al., 1999).
Re above.......espresso seems to have the lowest amounts...phew!!   And if, as the last sentence suggests,the coffee is cremated well past Vienna we should be ok!!!!!!!!

23) From: raymanowen
With my coffee intake increased since home roasting, the Mazzer, Tech Vorm,
and a little Capresso Luxe thingy, I have had to change some of my self
medication standards. A tsp of apple cider vinegar for the times I sample
the heel of a late-started loaf of whole grain bread and wake up later
thinking I swallowed some Drain-O.
I'm a little slow. I know that a Calcium capsule will buffer the battery
acid perfectly well. But I forget, then I pay sometimes.
I pity people that imagine they can't drink coffee after a certain time. It
just became tomorrow, and this Lot 30 is sumptuous as a 16oz Steinway. Great
way to kick back and relax
I suppose I could set an alarm to ring my doorbell* so that I'd know when
it's time to quit with the coffee for a given period. No sweat. That would
just signal the start of the following period, and the coffee continues.
*The doorbell is discordant, like the horns on the '57 Chrysler 300-C, only
about four octaves lower. One note is a 16ft closed, mitered flue pipe on a
10.5" scale, the other note is a 4ft open flue pipe on 5.5" scale.
I built the doorbell for All Hallows Eve and a party we had after we moved
in in '73. "My attic, my doorbell" The 4ft speaks first, then the 16ft
overwhelms the hum with a 32ft vibration. I could tune them, but never did.
Then the attic insulator jugheads wrecked my bellows that blew the pipes.
No "Ding Dong - Avon Calling," more like "Hmmm - Rumble, Avon Running!"
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Left a sample and brochure in your door...

24) From: Kevin
Eddie,
I admire the way you put things in perspective!  Time to enjoy some
Colombian Exselso 13556 at FC brewed up in the Moccamaster CD.  What a way
to start the day!
On 5/17/07, Eddie Dove  wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: Brett Mason
You have some Excelso left?  Unfair - that's so wrong....  What a great
cup!  For me it's Brazil Fazenda Brauna Flatbean, roasted FC+ - it's yummy
but was taken a tad too dark... (Did I say THAT?)
Brett
On 5/18/07, Kevin  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

26) From: Kevin
Brett,
The Excelso was roasted by a neighbor/friend of mine via the HGDB method.
He did a very nice job.  It's a great cup.  My friend stopped by with it
last night because we car pool and all week I was complaining that I hadn't
had time the past weekend to roast (Mother's Day and all).  The funny thing
was, when he stopped by I was roasting (1 lb of the Agua Tiba to FC and 1/2
pound of Misty Vally to City+).
Kevin

27) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
The body does not PRODUCE bad cholesterol. We EAT bad (oxidised) cholesterol
in animal products cooked at high temperature. This includes eggs.
Hardboiled and scrambled eggs have the greatest potential for oxidised
cholesterol, raw or sunny side up has the lowest potential. Eggs can still
be a superfood if we do not destroy it first.
--

28) From: Kevin
What about eggs over easy??  ;-)  Also, hardboiled eggs are 'boiled' usually
at 212 F, is that a 'high' temperature when compared to frying, baking
(350F+), or broiling (450F+)?
On 5/18/07, Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin

29) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
You ask too many questions.  :-)
The poison is in the dosage.
--

30) From: Kevin
Ken,
You may find it hard to believe, but that's not the first time I've been
told that....  ;-)
Kevin

31) From: Jeff Oien
Ken Mary wrote:
<Snip>
I'm not a doctor or even that knowledgeable but I do know that dietary 
cholesterol has no effect on most people's cholesterol levels. I have 
high cholesterol, drastically changed my diet and it did nothing. My 
doctor said this is the case with most people and I've read this many 
times. Whether it's genetics or whatever I'll leave that to those more 
knowledgeable.
I'm hoping that the 1 1/2 cups of regular Swiss Golded brew I have 
everyday isn't going to affect my quality of life when I'm older.
Respectfully, since I know what you've gone through recently,
JeffO

32) From: Sandy Andina
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Actually, that's only partly true.  You can get high bad cholesterol  
levels without ingesting a molecule of cholesterol or even animal  
products:  either hereditarily or  via excessive consumption of  
saturated fats and any consumption of trans fats (which can both be  
vegetable in origin--e.g., coconut & palm oil and Crisco, margarine,  
or commercial peanut butters that are hydrogenated).  The liver does  
make all three kinds of cholesterol, which to varying degrees are  
necessary for tissue repair and maintenance;  but ideally you want it  
to make higher levels of large-particle HDLs, which bond to the bad  
cholesterols and triglycerides and carry them out of the body.   
Cooking per se does not oxidize cholesterol, and oxidation is a bad  
thing only when it occurs to your own cells (free radicals are  
produced, which aggravate inflammation and even spur the response).   
Oxidation does not turn HDL into LDL.  Raw and runny eggs also can  
make you sick from salmonella, and it is very, very difficult to  
ascertain which eggs are safe because the salmonella comes from the  
chicken (and almost all chickens, even free range, can be  
infected).   Nothing is entirely safe when overconsumed, and  
conversely there are very few edible substances that are entirely bad  
for you.  Use common sense and moderation, and listen to your body.  
Your mileage may vary, as the car ads say.
On May 18, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Ken Mary wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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Actually, that's only partly =
true.  You can get high bad cholesterol levels without ingesting a =
molecule of cholesterol or even animal products:  either hereditarily =
or  via excessive consumption of saturated fats and any consumption of =
trans fats (which can both be vegetable in origin--e.g., coconut & =
palm oil and Crisco, margarine, or commercial peanut butters that are =
hydrogenated).  The liver does make all three kinds of cholesterol, =
which to varying degrees are necessary for tissue repair and =
maintenance;  but ideally you want it to make higher levels of =
large-particle HDLs, which bond to the bad cholesterols and =
triglycerides and carry them out of the body.  Cooking per se does not =
oxidize cholesterol, and oxidation is a bad thing only when it occurs to =
your own cells (free radicals are produced, which aggravate inflammation =
and even spur the response).  Oxidation does not turn HDL into LDL.  =
Raw and runny eggs also can make you sick from salmonella, and it is =
very, very difficult to ascertain which eggs are safe because the =
salmonella comes from the chicken (and almost all chickens, even free =
range, can be infected).   Nothing is entirely safe when =
overconsumed, and conversely there are very few edible substances that =
are entirely bad for you.  Use common sense and moderation, and listen =
to your body. Your mileage may vary, as the car ads say.
On May 18, = 2007, at 9:08 AM, Ken Mary wrote:
From: "Blake R."I understand that the body uses cholesterol to = repair the cardiovascularsystem and = other organs of the body.  = High cholesterol is more of a symptonthan a root cause of heart disease.  Eggs when from something bad = to eat dueto cholesterol to now having a = reputation as a "Super Food". The body does = not PRODUCE bad cholesterol. We EAT bad (oxidised) cholesterolin animal products cooked at high temperature. This = includes eggs.Hardboiled and scrambled eggs = have the greatest potential for oxidisedbe a superfood if we do not = destroy it first.-- homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-63--660109339--

33) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I have some too that and some IMV don't forget my last 2# of Bug or my
2# of geisha ....LOL I am a micro chasm of coffee's from the last year
almost everything I have is sold out I'm looking forward to getting some
new stock shortly 
Dennis 
AKA 
FC1(SW/AW) Dennis W. True 
Safety Dept 
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) 
FPO AE 09532-2830 
HG/DB and Z&D roasting in the Atlantic!
 "homeward bound 4 and counting down..." 
 
 
	 
	 
	
	 
	You have some Excelso left?  Unfair - that's so wrong....  What
a great cup!  For me it's Brazil Fazenda Brauna Flatbean, roasted FC+ -
it's yummy but was taken a tad too dark... (Did I say THAT?)
	
	Brett
	
	

34) From: Justin Marquez
On 5/17/07, Randall Nortman  wrote:
<Snip>
It seems to me that it would be difficult to have a meaningful test.  A
serious test with a single-sample data set would be hard to do.  Wouldn't
you have to do EVERYTHING in your life exactly the same for those two test
months?  Same food and exercise EXACTLY the same on the same days of the
month?  And how repeatable are the cholesterol tests?  Are there variations
between labs?
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)

35) From: Randall Nortman
On Mon, May 21, 2007 at 11:13:05AM -0500, Justin Marquez wrote:
<Snip>
No, it wouldn't be perfect.  Researchers call this sort of thing a
"case study", and it's not regarded as a good source of information
about populations in general.  But I'm saying that an imperfect study
of a single person is probably more relevant *to that person* than a
perfect study of a thousand people.  Of course, that depends a lot on
what you're studying, but blood cholesterol and cardiovascular health
are things that vary a *lot* from person to person, and so in this
case, data you have about yourself could be quite a bit more valuable
than data about population averages, even if it isn't suitable to be
published in an academic journal.
By the way, this would not be a single sample -- you would have at
least two data points (before and after).  No reason you couldn't take
a thousand measurements of yourself doing the experiment many times
over to get better data.  Well, no reason other than that your
insurance company might get a bit suspicious if you tried to bill all
that blood work to them.
The point is this: Researchers study populations, but populations are
made of individuals, and the variation among individuals is often
huge.  One person eats a buttered steak every day and never has high
cholesterol, and another might be a vegan who exercises regularly and
never enters the same room as a stick of butter, but who has high
cholesterol.  Those two people are at the extremes, and they just get
lost in the noise of these large-scale population studies.

36) From: raymanowen
Mathematics and statics brand the cholesterol charade as one more subject
for lab testing. Lab tests can be worse than useless, especially medical
tests when a limited sample is taken.
I hope my "cholesterol numbers" aren't bad because of coffee. Wouldn't be
prudent.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
People should think things out fresh and not just accept conventional terms
and the conventional way of doing things. - -R. Buckminster Fuller

37) From: Cameron Forde
The reason for my continued beating on this dead horse can be summed
up with this scenario: What if rather than causing heart disease, high
cholesterol levels were caused by heart disease?  What if the body
produced cholesterol as a way of signaling there is a problem?  Under
that scenario wouldn't it be a little ill-advised to go taking
medicine to reduce those levels?  As I understand it, there is no data
to indicate that this scenario is correct, any more than the data
support the current thinking (that high cholesterol levels cause heart
disease).  Given that at the moment, we just don't know, isn't it more
prudent to take action to lower the risk of heart disease by
increasing exercise levels and let the cholesterol levels sort
themselves out?  It just seems to me that there is an attitude held by
many that life's problems can be fixed with a pill, when the solution
to the problem lies elsewhere.
Done flogging that horse.  Now to get some of that new Harar (which is
a horse of a different colour).
Cameron

38) From: Floyd Lozano
I don't know if the causality is known, but i think the thinking is: high
cholesterol is a possible indicator / precursor to development of heart
disease.  Whether it causes it or it's a symptom that a physiological
process is underway that leads to is, with high cholesterol being the signal
(be it via byproduct or presence) that you're on that road now, I don't
know.  Can't really know for sure, but if research like this finds its way
into one or more peer-reviewed medical journals then one may argue the
reliability of the conclusions drawn increases (they are after all, experts,
insofar as one could be considered an expert in the magical inner workings
of the human body - who was it that said that to a sufficiently primitive
civilization, science and magic are indistinguishable?)  Yeah, we won't know
for sure til we know for sure.  It's not as clear cut as say, 'falling from
great heights doesn't cause death, it's the sudden stop at the end'.  Does
that make gravity deadly?
-F
ps i am a lazy man, but it you told me my choices were give up coffee or
take up exercise, i'd be a far-runnin' fool!
On 5/22/07, Cameron Forde  wrote:
<Snip>

39) From: Larry Dorman
Only when consumed in large quantities or too quickly...
On 5/22/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
  Does that make gravity deadly?

40) From: Brett Mason
Gravity is rarely deadly.  It's usualy the quick stop at the end of the
trip....
Brett
On 5/22/07, Larry Dorman  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

41) From: Sandy Andina
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Ah, and therein lies the mystery. We're still dealing with a chicken- 
or-the-egg situation (pun intended).
On May 21, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Cameron Forde wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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Ah, and therein lies the =
mystery. We're still dealing with a chicken-or-the-egg situation (pun =
intended).
On May 21, 2007, at 11:46 PM, Cameron Forde =
wrote:
What if rather than causing = heart disease, highcholesterol levels were caused by heart disease?  What if the = bodyproduced cholesterol as a = way of signaling there is a problem?  = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-85--290986689--


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