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Topic: sealing with SM's valve bags (10 msgs / 253 lines)
1) From: raymanowen
From a Wannabe, I was thinking of using these bags to send fresh roasted
beans.
Treating the dense CO2 gas like water, I'm wondering just how I would make
sure the valve was always at the high spot. In that way, the evolving CO2
would displace the O2 out of the bag through the valve.
In any other orientation, the lighter O2 molecules would "float" in the
upper recesses, on top of the CO2. Kind of like flotsam and jetsam on the
shoreline. O2 molecules are not your friend, since they love the hydrocarbon
molecules of coffee. The results of the affinity are not so tasty.
Like oil floating on water, O2 molecules will float on top of the more dense
CO2 as it evolves.
My thought is to double bag the coffee beans, so that rising barometric
pressure won't force O2 into the inner bag. The inner bag would be in a CO2
atmosphere in the outer bag.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
People should think things out fresh and not just accept conventional terms
and the conventional way of doing things. - -R. Buckminster Fuller

2) From: Donald Varona
I don't think your theory "holds water", so to speak.
If what you said was true, we'd all be sitting here suffocating on the 
earth with oxygen in the upper reaches of the atmosphere away from us.  
It is true that CO2 is heavier than air, but it eventually all mixes 
with it.  In a small space such as a valve bag, that would happen pretty 
quickly.
Density in air is not like oil and water; it's more like different 
densities of sugar water.  Eventually they all mix and you get one batch 
of the same strength.  The only exception to this is for gases that are 
so light, they reach escape velocity and can float away from earth (I 
think hydrogen H2 is like this).  However, even helium can be made from 
fractional distillation of air, so not much gets away.
Perhaps a physicist could speak on this more precisely.  Any out there?
--dv
raymanowen wrote:
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3) From:
Frank:
Don't worry too much you xan use just about anything that's handy to store your beans for resting.
Heck I have left a bowl of benas on the sink for a few days and they were great; when roasted they had no off taste from being left out! Kitchen smelled wonderful.
Last week I left a bag of roasted in the car and had only turned the bag over and not sealed it.
Get smell ]in the car...
ginny
I think people just use what makes it easy for them to store considering space in their kitchen.
---- Frank Awbrey  wrote:

4) From: Rich
Remember the Brownian Movement?  You can not compare the inside atmospheric conditions of a bag of 
beans to the atmospheric conditions existing outside of that bag.  Something like comparing potatoes 
and grapes.
On Tue, 29 May 2007 06:50:01 -0400, Donald Varona wrote:
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5) From: Jim Carter
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
The Brownian Movement sounds like something I do at least once every 
day. Based on my experience, it would seem as if the quantity of the BM 
is directly related to the quantity of coffee consumed.
Rich wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Amber Systems, Inc.
414 Main Street Suite 211-C
Rochester, Michigan 48307
www.ambersystems.com
p. 248-652-3140 ext. 224
f. 248-652-3402

6) From: B. Scott Harroff
Physicist here.
Density in 'air' is like oil and water. In a stable (non turbulent)
environment (sealed jar, neither shaken nor stirred) liquids or gasses of
different densities (which don't combine with each other into other
combinations) will settle out into layers.  The best example of this is the
gas cartridges that folks use to 'seal' wine and keep O2 for mixing with and
oxidizing the wine.
On planet earth, we have thermals which mixes 'air' in the vertical plane,
jet streams which mixes air in the horizontal plane, then things like storms
to hurricanes which do all kinds of funky mixing.  With all that turbulence,
there is no chance for things to setting out into layers (short of things
with real density deltas (aka clouds).

7) From: Robert Joslin
Pet Shop it, Ray.  Squirt a little CO2 in the bag to displace all the other
atmospheric gas, seal and ship like they do with O2 in fish bags at the pet
shop.
On 5/29/07, raymanowen  wrote:
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8) From: raymanowen
"Squirt a little CO2 in the bag to displace all the other atmospheric gas,
seal and ship like they do with O2 in fish bags at the pet shop."
I like it. I had been thinking of utilizing my CO2 fire extinguisher. 20lb
of CO2, but the pressure is extreme. All I wanted was to duct a flow of CO2
into my grinder's grind chamber and eliminate all contact with O2 by the
grounds and keep them blown through the grinder.
Too much bother to regulate the pressure, etc. Besides I grind flash frozen
beans directly into whatever filter I'm using. O2 loves the coffee
hydrocarbons, but I hate O2 in my coffee.
Another ready source of volumes of CO2 is dry ice. No equipment required and
a few chips will really get the ball rolling if I can keep them from
absorbing heat too rapidly. After the packaging start, the fresh roasted
coffee will evolve CO2 by itself.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 5/30/07, Robert Joslin  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

9) From: Rich
Use nitrogen.  You can buy it in the paint section of the Big Box store of your choice.  It is inert....
--Original Message Text---
From: raymanowen
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:08:35 -0600
"Squirt a little CO2 in the bag to displace all the other atmospheric gas, seal and ship like they do 
with O2 in fish bags at the pet shop."
I like it. I had been thinking of utilizing my CO2 fire extinguisher. 20lb of CO2, but the pressure is 
extreme. All I wanted was to duct a flow of CO2 into my grinder's grind chamber and eliminate all 
contact with O2 by the grounds and keep them blown through the grinder. 
Too much bother to regulate the pressure, etc. Besides I grind flash frozen beans directly into 
whatever filter I'm using. O2 loves the coffee hydrocarbons, but I hate O2 in my coffee.
Another ready source of volumes of CO2 is dry ice. No equipment required and a few chips will really 
get the ball rolling if I can keep them from absorbing heat too rapidly. After the packaging start, the 
fresh roasted coffee will evolve CO2 by itself. 
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 5/30/07, Robert Joslin  wrote: Pet Shop it, Ray.  Squirt a little CO2 in the 
bag to displace all the other atmospheric gas, seal and ship like they do with O2 in fish bags at the pet 
shop. 
On 5/29/07, raymanowen < raymanowen> wrote: From a Wannabe, I was 
thinking of using these bags to send fresh roasted beans. 
Treating the dense CO2 gas like water, I'm wondering just how I would make sure the valve was 
always at the high spot. In that way, the evolving CO2 would displace the O2 out of the bag through 
the valve. 
In any other orientation, the lighter O2 molecules would "float" in the upper recesses, on top of the 
CO2. Kind of like flotsam and jetsam on the shoreline. O2 molecules are not your friend, since they 
love the hydrocarbon molecules of coffee. The results of the affinity are not so tasty. 
Like oil floating on water, O2 molecules will float on top of the more dense CO2 as it evolves.
My thought is to double bag the coffee beans, so that rising barometric pressure won't force O2 into 
the inner bag. The inner bag would be in a CO2 atmosphere in the outer bag. 
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
People should think things out fresh and not just accept conventional terms and the conventional way 
of doing things. - -R. Buckminster Fuller  
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC 
Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976 

10) From: Scott Marquardt
Instead of sealing the bags, just zip them closed and fold them over
at the zip. Use a single piece of tape to hold the top flap against
the side of the bag.
This is the simplest way I know of to avoid the hassle of heat-sealing
a bag design that doesn't really need sealing -- except in the case of
transport or rough handling where the risk of opening is high.
However, I have yet to see the foldover technique result in spillage
of bags.
But don't take my word for it. Try the method and play football in the
back yard with the bag for a while. See if it works.   ;-)
- Scott
On 5/28/07, Frank Awbrey  wrote:
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