HomeRoast Digest


Topic: espresso machine upgrade (27 msgs / 1258 lines)
1) From: Sandy Andina
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 From what I've read (especially on CoffeeGeek), the KA Proline is a
good midlevel grinder--as good as or better than the Solis Maestro
Plus or Baratza Virtuoso, not as good as the Rancilio Rocky. With a
decent machine (at least a Gaggia or Silvia) it will yield very good
espresso. Swap it out with a Rocky and you will get great espresso.
Move up to a Mazzer or Macap and you might achieve transcendence.  If
you were using a POS like a whirley-blade or Krups/Braun/DeLonghi/
Cuisinart sub-$100 grinder, I would have told you to upgrade the
grinder first. But I still hold fast to my position that a KA Proline
+Silvia will yield you a better cup than a Rocky (or even Mazzer)
+Krups thermoblock "crema enchancer" machine.  Most others here would
disagree with me. On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:08 PM, David Brown wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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From what =
I've read (especially on CoffeeGeek), the KA Proline is agood midlevel grinder--as good as or better than the =
Solis MaestroPlus or Baratza Virtuoso, not as =
good as the Rancilio Rocky. With adecent =
machine (at least a Gaggia or Silvia) it will yield very goodespresso. Swap it out with a Rocky and you will get =
great espresso.Move up to a Mazzer or Macap and =
you might achieve transcendence.  Ifyou were =
using a POS like a whirley-blade or Krups/Braun/DeLonghi/Cuisinart sub-$100 grinder, I would have told you to =
upgrade thegrinder first. But I still hold =
fast to my position that a KA Proline+Silvia =
will yield you a better cup than a Rocky (or even Mazzer)+Krups thermoblock "crema enchancer" machine.  =
Most others here woulddisagree with me. On Jun =
13, 2007, at 5:08 PM, David Brown wrote:
Is the KA proline really that bad? It was a pretty =
big step up fromthe POS I was using. Home =
roasting has been a HUGE improvement so ISandy =
Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=


= = --Apple-Mail-109--524146851--

2) From: raymanowen
" Most others here would disagree with me."
Any combination of machines may produce excellent nectar or dreckig
Schlacke. Any particular brewing device can brew coffee with grounds from
<Snip>
If the KA Proline is a good midlevel grinder, the top of the line machines
should only cost about twice as much. That means *$ really got the shaft
twenty or so years ago.
For whatever brewing method you utilize, you'll get astoundingly better
results if the particulate sizes of the coffee grounds are identical so that
it all extracts identically. That's the only way you can tune the brew.
If the grind resembles the floor sweep from a furniture factory, the
extraction can't be homogenious. With a Disneyland grind, a small percent of
the coffee can be perfect while all the rest has to be nasty.
You want complexity? The Nile has complexity! A crummy grinder generates
wild flavors that blot out the wonderful complexity present in Sweet Maria's
coffees. Want a good grinder? Line up 100 beans on the B&FE railroad tracks.
You should get most of the grounds in a couple of rain gutters placed beside
the rails. Don't try this in the countryside where they might flush the
honeybucket...
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 6/13/07, Sandy Andina  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

3) From: David Brown
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Ray,
That is it, the KA was about 1/2 of the Mazzer at over $200. I've  
spent some time looking at the grind it produces and, to my eye  
anyway, I can not see any variation in grind size. Lord knows how it  
will perform in the long run but so far it seems pretty decent for  
the money. I had know idea how much "real" stuff was out there until  
after I had purchased it and found SM. On a really good note, I did  
find a Miss Silvia and the adaption should be complete early next  
week. I can't wait to try it!
Dave
On Jun 14, 2007, at 4:18 AM, raymanowen wrote:
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Ray,That is it, the KA was =
about 1/2 of the Mazzer at over $200. I've spent some time looking at =
the grind it produces and, to my eye anyway, I can not see any variation =
in grind size. Lord knows how it will perform in the long run but so far =
it seems pretty decent for the money. I had know idea how much "real" =
stuff was out there until after I had purchased it and found SM. On a =
really good note, I did find a Miss Silvia and the adaption should be =
complete early next week. I can't wait to try it!
Dave On Jun = 14, 2007, at 4:18 AM, raymanowen = wrote:
" Most others here would disagree with me." Any = combination of machines may produce excellent nectar or dreckig = Schlacke. Any particular brewing device can brew coffee with grounds = from >any< grinder. If the KA Proline is a good midlevel = grinder, the top of the line machines should only cost about twice as = much. That means *$ really got the shaft twenty or so years = ago. For whatever brewing method you utilize, you'll get = astoundingly better results if the particulate sizes of the coffee = grounds are identical so that it all extracts identically. That's the = only way you can tune the brew. If the grind resembles the floor = sweep from a furniture factory, the extraction can't be homogenious. = With a Disneyland grind, a small percent of the coffee can be perfect = while all the rest has to be nasty. You want complexity? The = Nile has complexity! A crummy grinder generates wild flavors that blot = out the wonderful complexity present in Sweet Maria's coffees. Want a = good grinder? Line up 100 beans on the B&FE railroad tracks. = You should get most of the grounds in a couple of rain gutters = placed beside the rails. Don't try this in the countryside where they = might flush the honeybucket... Cheers -RayO, aka = Opa! On 6/13/07, Sandy Andina <sandraandina> = wrote: From what I've read = (especially on CoffeeGeek), the KA Proline is agood midlevel grinder--as good as or better than the Solis = Maestro Plus or Baratza Virtuoso, not = as good as the Rancilio Rocky. With adecent machine (at least a Gaggia or Silvia) it will yield very = goodespresso. Swap it out with a Rocky = and you will get great espresso. Move = up to a Mazzer or Macap and you might achieve transcendence.  = Ifyou were using a POS like a = whirley-blade or Krups/Braun/DeLonghi/ = Cuisinart sub-$100 grinder, I would have told you to upgrade = thegrinder first. But I still hold = fast to my position that a KA Proline+Silvia will yield you a better cup than a Rocky (or even Mazzer) = +Krups thermoblock "crema enchancer" = machine.  Most others here woulddisagree with me. On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:08 PM, David Brown = wrote: = Is = the KA proline really that bad? It was a pretty big step up = fromthe POS I was using. Home roasting = has been a HUGE improvement so I definitely open to retooling. > > Dave > = > Sandy Andinawww.sandyandina.com<= A href="http://www.myspace.com/sandyandina"target="_blank" = onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> = www.myspace.com/sandyandina =
-- = "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at = the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- = 1976 = --Apple-Mail-7--489838701--

4) From: raymanowen
" I can't wait to try it!"
There you have it, Dave. With a grinding mechanism that duplicates particle
size at any setting, and a good multiplicity of settings available, there
will certainly be dozens of ways to botch the brew. The only way to "dial
in" your brew is to make small repeatable changes at every step and evaluate
the effect of the changes on your palate.
For some people, the process involves too much bother, and it's a triumph of
technology that the refrigerator light comes on when you open the door. It's
enough involvement in the procurement of a cup of coffee to ask for "room"
or not.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
That's good enough-
On 6/14/07, David Brown  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

5) From: Sandy Andina
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Dave,
For a month my espresso rig was a Silvia and a Solis Maestro Plus,  
which Ray will tell you is nowhere near the equal of a KA Proline (he  
has had rather unfortunate experiences with Solis grinders,  
experiences that do not match my own).  I bought the SM+ from  
Intelligentsia Coffee, which has very high standards and refuses to  
sell poor quality products.  Together, they produced shots that were  
the best I'd ever had outside of a real espresso bar (and far better  
than many real espresso bars) and I still had not started home  
roasting. You will wonder how you ever put up with what came out of  
your Krups on even its best days.  When you are once again flush  
enough to upgrade, go for a Rocky or a Mazzer before you upgrade to a  
heat exchanger or double boiler machine (if ever).  Learn the ins and  
outs of Miss Silvia and she will be very good to you indeed.
On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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Dave,For a month my =
espresso rig was a Silvia and a Solis Maestro Plus, which Ray will tell =
you is nowhere near the equal of a KA Proline (he has had rather =
unfortunate experiences with Solis grinders, experiences that do not =
match my own).  I bought the SM+ from Intelligentsia Coffee, which has =
very high standards and refuses to sell poor quality products.  =
Together, they produced shots that were the best I'd ever had outside of =
a real espresso bar (and far better than many real espresso bars) and I =
still had not started home roasting. You will wonder how you ever put up =
with what came out of your Krups on even its best days.  When you are =
once again flush enough to upgrade, go for a Rocky or a Mazzer before =
you upgrade to a heat exchanger or double boiler machine (if ever).  =
Learn the ins and outs of Miss Silvia and she will be very good to you =
indeed.
On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:38 AM, David Brown =
wrote:
Ray,That is it, the KA was about 1/2 of the Mazzer at = over $200. I've spent some time looking at the grind it produces and, to = my eye anyway, I can not see any variation in grind size. Lord knows how = it will perform in the long run but so far it seems pretty decent for = the money. I had know idea how much "real" stuff was out there until = after I had purchased it and found SM. On a really good note, I did find = a Miss Silvia and the adaption should be complete early next week. I = can't wait to try it!
Dave = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-112--473737541--

6) From: Eddie Dove
Dave,
I am on vacation and have not been following this entire thread, but I
hope this information is timely and helpful.  I had a KitchenAid
Proline (KAP - that I REALLY LIKED!), so from that perspective I can
speak from experience.  The KAP was essentially a step up from a
whirly blade and I have since sold that KAP grinder and bought a
Mazzer Mini and Gaggia Carezza ... a great pairing.
Given the experiences I have had with the KAP / Customer Service and
the information that RayO / Sandy and others have provided to this
list, between the two, I would choose the Baratza Virtuoso (I have
never had one) over the KAP for quality of grind.  Do understand, that
is the decision I would make BETWEEN THESE TWO GRINDERS.
Beyond those two grinders, and expansion of the grinder budget to
~$500.00, I would choose the Mazzer Mini over anything else without
hesitation (I have one), for French Press to Espresso (one-second
adjusment) PERIOD!  <---  LOTS of emphasis!  Restrict the budget to
~$400.00, and based on reputation (I do not have one), I would buy the
Rancilio Rocky because of grind and BURR PLATE QUALITY / LONGEVITY;
not on par with that of the Mazzer Mini, but durability and
reliability still being remarkably high, I would consider the Rancilio
Rocky the only long-term, competent, entry-level and beyond,
espresso-grade grinder.
The original KAP I had was wonderful.  When I wanted to replace the
burrs due to grind quality, I called KitchenAid and their solution was
to immediately replace the grinder; EXCELLE as well did others get a
good replacement grinder.  I never received a quality replacement
grinder and finally decided on the Mazzer Mini with the expertise of a
20-year, home-roasting veteran that has gone before me, Les Albjerg.
I am not hoping to lean on Les' reputation, but to assert the quality
of grind / grinder based experience and the informed opinion of those
that have gone before me.
On a purely objective basis, if finances afford, save up and get a Mazzer Mini.
Respectfully,
Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On 6/14/07, David Brown  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: raymanowen
Again, my point:
"...if finances afford, save up and get a Mazzer Mini."
And if finances do not, indeed, afford- please cease reallocating your
finances to allow the depletion and waste of the superb coffee from SM That
You Can't Even Taste. A grinder is fully capable of obliterating flavor with
a Disneyland grind distribution.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
One of these days, Alice, you'll do the Homer Simpson thing-

8) From: John Moody
That is a much better recommendation that your last suggestion.  I had
almost all the beans lined up before some seriously pissed-off transit
police sent me away, screaming something about homeland security….
John

9) From: David Brown
OK, OK!!! UNCLE! My side hurts!
Thanks everyone for all of the information,, I've been schooled! My  
wife has a simple policy concerning upgrades, the item being upgraded  =
must be proven flawed or broken. The Mazzer is now on the "list" AND  
the Salvia will be here Monday, do I dare ask the benefits of PID'ing  =
it???
Ray, there is no sense in not using SM coffee, have you seen the  
price of Maxwell House at the store lately?!
And John, you can get closer to the tracks at night, it is just  
harder to find where the bean remnants went . . .
Dave
On Jun 15, 2007, at 12:06 PM, John Moody wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>

10) From: Barry Luterman
Don't know the advantage of a PID for a Salvia.The advantage of a PID for a 
Silvia however, is temperature control with no surfing. Temperature for an 
Espresso shot is crucial. A few                     degrees difference can 
make the difference between an excellent shot and a bitter or sour shot. 
Temperature surfing is time consuming and inexact.Whereas using a PID yields 
temperatures within one tenth of a degree. Cost for components with you 
doing the work (not too difficult) $170.

11) From: Brentley Beerline
Three best upgrades for a Silvia
1.  PID (hands down best upgrade)
2=
.  Naked portafilter with 18 GM la marzocco basket so you can get a deeper =
puck.  the naked portafilter ensures that your distribution technique is pr=
oper.  All of the espresso porn you see on the web is made with naked porta=
filters.
3.  Grinder.  I went from a rocky to a mazzer and it made a trem=
endous difference.  
the only way you outgrow this setup (as I am l=
earning) is to have a latte drinking sig other who wants her drink made eve=
ry monring for her.  Because of this we are upgrading to the next level.
=
regards
Brentley
----- Original Message ----
From: Barry Luterm=
an 
To: homeroast
Sen=
t: Friday, June 15, 2007 11:48:22 AM
Subject: Re: +espresso machine upgra=
de
Don't know the advantage of a PID for a Salvia.The advantage of =
a PID for a 
Silvia however, is temperature control with no surfing. Temp=
erature for an 
Espresso shot is crucial. A few                     degre=
es difference can 
make the difference between an excellent shot and a bi=
tter or sour shot. 
Temperature surfing is time consuming and inexact.Whe=
reas using a PID yields 
temperatures within one tenth of a degree. Cost =
for components with you 
doing the work (not too difficult) $170.
-----=
 Original Message ----- 
From: "David Brown" =
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:31=
 AM
Subject: Re: +espresso machine upgrade
OK, OK!!! UNCLE! My si=
de hurts!
Thanks everyone for all of the information,, I've been schoo=
led! My
wife has a simple policy concerning upgrades, the item being upgr=
aded
must be proven flawed or broken. The Mazzer is now on the "list" AND=
the Salvia will be here Monday, do I dare ask the benefits of PID'ing
=
it???
Ray, there is no sense in not using SM coffee, have you seen the=
price of Maxwell House at the store lately?!
And John, you can get =
closer to the tracks at night, it is just
harder to find where the bean r=
emnants went . . .
Dave
On Jun 15, 2007, at 12:06 PM, John Moody =
wrote:
> That is a much better recommendation that your last suggestio=
n.  I had
> almost all the beans lined up before some seriously pissed-of=
f transit
> police sent me away, screaming something about homeland secur=
ity….
>
> John
>
>

12) From: Barry Luterman
This is exactly my upgrade. From Rocky and Silvia to PID to Mazzer and 
Brewtus and for the same reasons.

13) From: Les
Well put Ray!  With that said, don't forget for that about $100.00 you can
get a good Zass that grinds as good as my Mazzer.  The main difference being
the Zass has an "arm-strong" motor.  I love my Zass!
Les
On 6/15/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: David Brown
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Gee Les, what's well put about it? That someone broadcasts that since  
my grinder is not up to his standard that I should cease buying  
coffee from SM so as not to deplete the available stock? or that my  
equipment is unworthy of anything other than Maxwell House?
I signed up for this list to learn not to be insulted. I'm 49 and  
total amazed every-time I see this kind of "holier than thou"  
attitude towards some one with no experience seeking the advice from  
those more experienced. I've been in the computer industry damn near  
since the beginning and I've never once told someone asking for  
advice that they needed to buy a Cray super computer or stop wasting  
power! Take another look at his comment and tell me, does it further  
the art of home-roasting? Does it instill friendship and camaraderie?
I joined this list hoping to meet some good people who share my new  
found love which is home roasting. For the most part I have, I have  
meet a bunch of people through this list that have provided me with  
information that I have no doubt would have taken me years to learn  
on my own. But to say that Ray's message was well put, give me a break.
My apologies for polluting the list with this rant but every once in  
awhile . . .
Dave
On Jun 15, 2007, at 4:57 PM, Les wrote:
<Snip>
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Gee Les, what's well put =
about it? That someone broadcasts that since my grinder is not up to his =
standard that I should cease buying coffee from SM so as not to deplete =
the available stock? or that my equipment is unworthy of anything =
other than Maxwell House?
I signed up for this list = to learn not to be insulted. I'm 49 and total amazed every-time I see = this kind of "holier than thou" attitude towards some one with = no experience seeking the advice from those more experienced. I've = been in the computer industry damn near since the beginning and I've = never once told someone asking for advice that they needed to buy a Cray = super computer or stop wasting power! Take another look at his comment = and tell me, does it further the art of home-roasting? Does it = instill friendship and camaraderie?
I joined this list hoping = to meet some good people who share my new found love which is home = roasting. For the most part I have, I have meet a bunch of people = through this list that have provided me with information that I have no = doubt would have taken me years to learn on my own. But to say that = Ray's message was well put, give me a break.
My apologies for polluting = the list with this rant but every once in awhile . . = .Dave On Jun 15, 2007, at 4:57 PM, Les = wrote:
Well put Ray!  With that said, don't forget for = that about $100.00 you can get a good Zass that grinds as good as my = Mazzer.  The main difference being the Zass has an "arm-strong" = motor.  I love my Zass!   Les   = On 6/15/07, raymanowen <raymanowen> = wrote: Again, my = point: "...if finances afford, save up and get a Mazzer Mini." = And if finances do not, indeed, afford- please cease = reallocating your finances to allow the depletion and waste of the = superb coffee from SM That You Can't = Even Taste. A grinder is fully capable of obliterating flavor = with a Disneyland grind distribution. Cheers -RayO, aka = Opa! One of these days, Alice, you'll do the Homer Simpson thing- = = --Apple-Mail-11--356921247--

15) From: David Brown
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Gee Les, what's well put about it? That someone broadcasts that since  
my grinder is not up to his standard that I should cease buying  
coffee from SM so as not to deplete the available stock? or that my  
equipment is unworthy of anything other than Maxwell House?
I signed up for this list to learn not to be insulted. I'm 49 and  
total amazed every-time I see this kind of "holier than thou"  
attitude towards some one with no experience seeking the advice from  
those more experienced. I've been in the computer industry damn near  
since the beginning and I've never once told someone asking for  
advice that they needed to buy a Cray super computer or stop wasting  
power! Take another look at his comment and tell me, does it further  
the art of home-roasting? Does it instill friendship and camaraderie?
I joined this list hoping to meet some good people who share my new  
found love which is home roasting. For the most part I have, I have  
meet a bunch of people through this list that have provided me with  
information that I have no doubt would have taken me years to learn  
on my own. But to say that Ray's message was well put, give me a break.
My apologies for polluting the list with this rant but every once in  
awhile . . .
Dave
On Jun 15, 2007, at 4:57 PM, Les wrote:
<Snip>
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Gee Les, what's well put =
about it? That someone broadcasts that since my grinder is not up to his =
standard that I should cease buying coffee from SM so as not to deplete =
the available stock? or that my equipment is unworthy of anything =
other than Maxwell House?
I signed up for this list = to learn not to be insulted. I'm 49 and total amazed every-time I see = this kind of "holier than thou" attitude towards some one with = no experience seeking the advice from those more experienced. I've = been in the computer industry damn near since the beginning and I've = never once told someone asking for advice that they needed to buy a Cray = super computer or stop wasting power! Take another look at his comment = and tell me, does it further the art of home-roasting? Does it = instill friendship and camaraderie?
I joined this list hoping = to meet some good people who share my new found love which is home = roasting. For the most part I have, I have meet a bunch of people = through this list that have provided me with information that I have no = doubt would have taken me years to learn on my own. But to say that = Ray's message was well put, give me a break.
My apologies for polluting = the list with this rant but every once in awhile . . = .Dave On Jun 15, 2007, at 4:57 PM, Les = wrote:
Well put Ray!  With that said, don't forget for = that about $100.00 you can get a good Zass that grinds as good as my = Mazzer.  The main difference being the Zass has an "arm-strong" = motor.  I love my Zass!   Les   = On 6/15/07, raymanowen <raymanowen> = wrote: Again, my = point: "...if finances afford, save up and get a Mazzer Mini." = And if finances do not, indeed, afford- please cease = reallocating your finances to allow the depletion and waste of the = superb coffee from SM That You Can't = Even Taste. A grinder is fully capable of obliterating flavor = with a Disneyland grind distribution. Cheers -RayO, aka = Opa! One of these days, Alice, you'll do the Homer Simpson thing- = = --Apple-Mail-12--356791906--

16) From: Brett Mason
Hey David,
If it's Les saying it, there is nothing holier than thou about it...  If it
were me, well then you'd have a point to be made...  But not with Les...
Better re-read - I bet he said the grinder is everything to the quality of
the brew...  And IF he said that, he would definitely be right...
BUT THEN, taste is in the cup of the consumer, and nowhere else...  So if
it's good for you, then, here's to ya...
Brett
On 6/15/07, David Brown  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

17) From: Les
On 6/15/07, David Brown  wrote:
<Snip>
Les

18) From: raymanowen
I was going to suggest you not read the post if you take offense easily, but
my concern was obviously misplaced.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 6/15/07, David Brown  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

19) From: Randolph Wilson
Same old micturition melee going on now as when I left the list a year ago I 
see...
Note to Tom - could you monitor the list and secretly ship only decaf beans to 
those who show signs of being over-caffeinated?  Just a thought...
(hi to those who remember me - Randy)

20) From: Tom Ulmer
This is a multipart message in MIME format.
At the risk of sounding like an ass, which I have no delusions otherwise and
do not need any more verification, what are you going to do? Listen to the
advice of someone who does not own an espresso machine or excerpt a couple
of your own formulated thoughts and act upon some basis founded in reason of
your own design by sifting through the opinions of others? Do you ask for
opinion in a public forum and then dictate how the answer should be crafted?
Gee, Dave?
 My opinion is  that you will find this list of like-minded enthusiasts
entertaining, friendly, and frictional. However, you would be best served
letting the items you find bothersome find their way to your deleted items.
As in any group, you will find personalities that clash with your own - mine
probably included.
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of David Brown
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:34 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +espresso machine upgrade
Gee Les, what's well put about it? That someone broadcasts that since my
grinder is not up to his standard that I should cease buying coffee from SM
so as not to deplete the available stock? or that my equipment is unworthy
of anything other than Maxwell House?
I signed up for this list to learn not to be insulted. I'm 49 and total
amazed every-time I see this kind of "holier than thou" attitude towards
some one with no experience seeking the advice from those more experienced.
I've been in the computer industry damn near since the beginning and I've
never once told someone asking for advice that they needed to buy a Cray
super computer or stop wasting power! Take another look at his comment and
tell me, does it further the art of home-roasting? Does it instill
friendship and camaraderie?
I joined this list hoping to meet some good people who share my new found
love which is home roasting. For the most part I have, I have meet a bunch
of people through this list that have provided me with information that I
have no doubt would have taken me years to learn on my own. But to say that
Ray's message was well put, give me a break.
My apologies for polluting the list with this rant but every once in awhile
. . .
Dave
On Jun 15, 2007, at 4:57 PM, Les wrote:
Well put Ray!  With that said, don't forget for that about $100.00 you can
get a good Zass that grinds as good as my Mazzer.  The main difference being
the Zass has an "arm-strong" motor.  I love my Zass! 
Les
On 6/15/07, raymanowen  wrote: 
Again, my point:
"...if finances afford, save up and get a Mazzer Mini." 
And if finances do not, indeed, afford- please cease reallocating your
finances to allow the depletion and waste of the superb coffee from SM That
You Can't Even Taste. A grinder is fully capable of obliterating flavor with
a Disneyland grind distribution.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
One of these days, Alice, you'll do the Homer Simpson thing- 

21) From: Lynne Biziewski
Dave -
I absolutely love my SM's homeroast. Do not plan to return to anything like
Maxwell House, (I guess unless my finances don't improve, as I can't afford
to put in another order at this time..)
My roasting equipment is a tiny marked down Circulon-type pot & wooden
spoon. I purchased a
Zass when I first started a year ago, and liked it at first, but eventually
it aggrevated my arthritis and FM... so I am happy to admit that I find no
problem with using my ... gasp... (ducking for fear
of flying pans..) good ol' Braun whirly blade grinder (I searched high & low
for that brand years ago
after having so many problems with others).
I finally put the Zass aside when I did a side by side comparison of brews
from both - they tasted exactly the same.
Now I doubt that I will be able to afford to invest in a burr grinder
anytime soon. Heck, I need to come up with luxuries like rent, food, etc...
Even if I COULD afford it, having to live on the meager side (ha - that's a
stretch!!) has re-taught me the lessons of the Depression that my mom taught
me (it was never referred to as the "Great" Depression in my house - guess
they didn't think there was anything 'great' about it) - that is... don't
waste a darn thing, and conserve your money even in good times - because you
just never know..
Fortunately, whether it is because I don't do espresso, or because my taste
buds are simply not developed enough, or even because I haven't had the
'best' to compare - whatever the reason, I am very happy with my brew.
The problem, as I see it, with many forums (and this is no exception) is
that those with the strongest opinions tend to 'shout' the loudest - and
many of the rest of us, just ignore the chatter.
I, particularly, have avoided participating lately because of the downright
toxic messages that are sometimes posted. I've avoided leaving altogether,
because there are many decent people here and, heck, I stay for the
coffee...
Listen, learn, ignore the crap, & do whatever the heck you want to do...
Lynne
**David wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Marci Morey
Tom,
I don't post here much because I barely have time to drink my cof=
fee anymore much less talk about it but maybe you didn't really read the po=
st that Dave was referring to. I've left it at the bottom of this e-mail ju=
st in case you missed it before. I'll be honest, I found it very offensive =
and if I was brand new to the list I would have quietly unsubscribed. As it=
 is, I've been here about 6 months so I've come to 'know' some of the perso=
nalities. Read Ray's note again. He says 'if you say you can't afford a goo=
d grinder, then stop buying SM beans because you're just keeping them away =
from us.' 
As an individual, I know I have the power of the delete but=
ton and I use it liberally. I don't expect to agree with everyone and most =
of the time I can let things slide. 
I know it's going to be a long, L=
ONG time before I can afford a great grinder. For now I limp along with wha=
t I have. The beans I buy and roast from SM make the best coffee I've ever =
had, even with my current grinder. To say that I should stop buying the bea=
ns because I have 'inferior' equipment is insulting. If I *could* afford to=
 pay out for a better grinder, I would. And when I do I'm sure I'll be amaz=
ed at the difference it makes. But until that day, I'll limp along with wha=
t I have available to me. 
Marci in Illinois, moving to Wisconsin with=
 inferior equipment but drinking the best coffee I've ever had in my life a=
nd loving it.
----- Original Message ----
From: Tom Ulmer tom=
ate.us
At the risk of sounding like an ass, which I have no delusio=
ns otherwise and do not need any more verification, what are you going to d=
o? Listen to the advice of someone who does not own an espresso machine or =
excerpt a couple of your own formulated thoughts and act upon some basis fo=
unded in reason of your own design by sifting through the opinions of other=
s? Do you ask for opinion in a public forum and then dictate how the answer=
 should be crafted? Gee, Dave?
 
 My opinion is  that you will find thi=
s list of like-minded enthusiasts entertaining, friendly, and frictional. H=
owever, you would be best served  letting the items you find bothersome fin=
d their way to your deleted items. As in any group, you will find personali=
ties that clash with your own – mine probably included.
 
 
On 6=
/15/07, raymanowen  wrote: 
Again, my poi=
nt:
"...if finances afford, save up and get a Mazzer Mini." 
And =
if finances do not, indeed, afford- please cease reallocating your finances=
 to allow the depletion and waste of the superb coffee from SM That You Can=
't Even Taste. A grinder is fully capable of obliterating flavor with a Dis=
neyland grind distribution.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
One of these d=
ays, Alice, you'll do the Homer Simpson thing-=
Fu=
ssy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel =
and lay it on us.http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a==7 

23) From: Tom Ulmer
This is a multipart message in MIME format.
Hi Marci-
It's certainly nice to meet your reply. I on the other hand, find humor in
the original post and would feel slighted in its absence - something along
the vein of taking a three phase generator as a travel item only to power a
grinder. 
Cheers to an outstanding cup here as well,
Tom
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Marci Morey
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 10:55 AM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +espresso machine upgrade
Tom,
I don't post here much because I barely have time to drink my coffee anymore
much less talk about it but maybe you didn't really read the post that Dave
was referring to. I've left it at the bottom of this e-mail just in case you
missed it before. I'll be honest, I found it very offensive and if I was
brand new to the list I would have quietly unsubscribed. As it is, I've been
here about 6 months so I've come to 'know' some of the personalities. Read
Ray's note again. He says 'if you say you can't afford a good grinder, then
stop buying SM beans because you're just keeping them away from us.' 
As an individual, I know I have the power of the delete button and I use it
liberally. I don't expect to agree with everyone and most of the time I can
let things slide. 
I know it's going to be a long, LONG time before I can afford a great
grinder. For now I limp along with what I have. The beans I buy and roast
from SM make the best coffee I've ever had, even with my current grinder. To
say that I should stop buying the beans because I have 'inferior' equipment
is insulting. If I *could* afford to pay out for a better grinder, I would.
And when I do I'm sure I'll be amazed at the difference it makes. But until
that day, I'll limp along with what I have available to me. 
Marci in Illinois, moving to Wisconsin with inferior equipment but drinking
the best coffee I've ever had in my life and loving it.
----- Original Message ----
From: Tom Ulmer tom
At the risk of sounding like an ass, which I have no delusions otherwise and
do not need any more verification, what are you going to do? Listen to the
advice of someone who does not own an espresso machine or excerpt a couple
of your own formulated thoughts and act upon some basis founded in reason of
your own design by sifting through the opinions of others? Do you ask for
opinion in a public forum and then dictate how the answer should be crafted?
Gee, Dave?
 My opinion is  that you will find this list of like-minded enthusiasts
entertaining, friendly, and frictional. However, you would be best served
letting the items you find bothersome find their way to your deleted items.
As in any group, you will find personalities that clash with your own - mine
probably included.
On 6/15/07, raymanowen  wrote: 
Again, my point:
"...if finances afford, save up and get a Mazzer Mini." 
And if finances do not, indeed, afford- please cease reallocating your
finances to allow the depletion and waste of the superb coffee from SM That
You Can't Even Taste. A grinder is fully capable of obliterating flavor with
a Disneyland grind distribution.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
One of these days, Alice, you'll do the Homer Simpson thing-  
Be a better Heartthrob. Get
  better
relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 

24) From: Brett Mason
Randolph!
That would be cruel and unusual punishment....
Brett
On 6/16/07, Randolph Wilson  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

25) From: Brett Mason
The cheapest great grinder I bought was a Zassenhaus for $14.50.  I have
bought several Zass mills for less than $30.
Feel free to delete.
But don't go slamming someone who is trying to help you figure out the
dreaded problem of never being able to afford a great grinder.  And don't g=
o
slamming Les who has always been incredibly helpful on the list.
As I wrote much earlier, If you feel Les ws trying to offend,you need to
re-read the email...
Just my $20,202.02...
Brett
On 6/16/07, Marci Morey  wrote:
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 mine
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X3oDMTI5MGx2aThyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAzNTIEX3MDMzk2NTQ1MTAzBHNlYwNCQUJwaWxsYXJfTkl=
fMzYwBHNsawNQcm9kdWN0X3F1ZXN0aW9uX3BhZ2U-?link=list&sid=396545433>from
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

26) From: miKe mcKoffee
Different "Best Silvia" upgrade list/order.
1) Grinder. 
2) OPV mod (or adjustment on newer models) to 8.5 to 9.5bar no flow.
3) Nekkid PF for PF build diagnostics.
Now "convenience" not shot quality upgrades.
3) Boiler PID to eliminate temp surf.
4) Tank float valve auto-fill.
5) Group rope heater & PID if pulling more than two consecutive shots to
stablize group temp creep. (Will rise ~12f by shot 6 in a series of pulls
regardless surf or PID boiler setting.) Extremely difficult to adjust surf
for group temp creep. Only reliable way is to pull a half dozen consecutive
blank pulls to bring the group to full operating temp before pulling the
First shot of a series.
If straight shot only use maybe worth doing, otherwise forget 3 through 5
and upgrade to entry level HX for about the same cost.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

27) From: Tara Kollas
I have a Zass that I use exclusively for drip coffe because I'm too lazy to
dial in my Macap from it's espresso setting.  And I'm waaaay too lazy to use
the Zass for espresso.  Takes about 125-150 cranks to grind beans for a full
pot from the Techno.  The only one who complains is my 4 year old, who says
it's too loud.


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