HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Diedrich HR-1 (22 msgs / 623 lines)
1) From: Jeff Pentel
I just returned from a Diedrich roasting seminar and brought an HR-1  
home with me. As others have mentioned, it's like going back to  
square one (I previously used a Gene Cafe). Does anyone have  
successful roast profiles they would like to share for this roaster  
to help with the learning curve?
By the way, I have an Excel spreadsheet I use, roughly based on  
Diedrich's, to profile all my roasts. If anyone would like a copy I'd  
be happy to send it.
Jeff

2) From: Branden Byers
Jeff,
I'd be interested in a copy of your spreadsheet. How was the seminar?
Branden
On 6/16/07, Jeff Pentel  wrote:
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3) From: Jeff Pentel
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Hi Branden,
Profile attached. I haven't tasted this one yet so I don't know how  
it came out. But you can save a copy and enter your own data. Do you  
have an HR-1?
The seminar was good in explaining the mechanics of roasters and  
creating profiles, but they never covered many of the things they  
promised on the web page, like identifying defects, and especially  
"techniques that can be applied to coffees to enhance their flavor."  
That's what I really wanted to know and they would never answer  
direct questions about profiles and flavor. Very frustrating.
Anyway, hope this is some use to you.
Jeff
On Jun 16, 2007, at 2:18 PM, Branden Byers wrote:
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Hi Branden,
Profile attached. I haven't = tasted this one yet so I don't know how it came out. But you can save a = copy and enter your own data. Do you have an HR-1?
The seminar was good in = explaining the mechanics of roasters and creating profiles, but they = never covered many of the things they promised on the web page, like = identifying defects, and especially "techniques that can be applied to coffees to enhance = their flavor." That's what I really wanted to know and they would never = answer direct questions about profiles and flavor. Very = frustrating.
Anyway, hope this is some = use to you.
Jeff On Jun = 16, 2007, at 2:18 PM, Branden Byers wrote:
Jeff, I'd be interested in a copy of = your spreadsheet. How was the seminar? On 6/16/07, Jeff Pentel <j_pentel<= /A>> wrote: I just = returned from a Diedrich roasting seminar and brought an HR-1home with me. As others have mentioned, it's like = going back tosquare one (I previously used a = Gene Cafe). Does anyone havesuccessful = roast profiles they would like to share for this roasterto help with the learning curve? By the = way, I have an Excel spreadsheet I use, roughly based onDiedrich's, to profile all my roasts. If anyone = would like a copy I'dbe happy to send = it. Jeffhomeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = = --Apple-Mail-1--290402084--

4) From: Aaron
Jeff  FYI, attaching stuff to e mails sent to this list generally get 
stripped out when the e mail is sent out to the rest of the list members.
the best way to get something to someone is to either A e mail them 
directly or if you are sharing it with everyone on the list, upload it 
somewhere and provide a link for us to goto to grab it.
Aaron

5) From: Vince Doss
Jeff,
I am truly excited for you on your new roaster but wanted to add that what
you describe here characterizes my experience with Diedrich through email. I
made a specific web based inquiry to their sales staff with a specific
question on a specific roaster model and got bombarded with superfluous
information but never a specific or even general answer to my question and
gave up. It reminded me of dealing with Multi-Level Marketing people or bad
Car Salesmen. I certainy think they have a quality product but based on this
exchange alone, I would never purchase their product. I have found other
roaster companies that were VERY forthcoming and ready to help me in any way
by giving me direct answers with pricing info and suggestions.
Vince
On 6/16/07, Jeff Pentel  wrote:
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6) From:
Vince:
I echo your comments. I had asked Diedrich several specific questions about their HR-1 and got junk back.
If I came to their seminar I would be able to understand all...
I don't think so.
ginny
---- Vince Doss  wrote: 
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7) From: Jeff Pentel
Ginny and Vince -
I think the Diedrich roasters are very good machines, and their  
explanation of how they designed the HR-1 was very interesting - they  
decided high carbon, heavy steel was the only way to go for a  
roaster, otherwise there would be metal fatigue a few years down the  
road and they did not want to have that worry. It really is built  
like a tank. And I really like the flame control of the infrared  
burners on the bigger machines, as infrared burners use much less gas  
than traditional jets. Economical, even heat is a very attractive  
selling point. For example, using 12,000 BTU/hour, you can roast 25  
pounds on a Diedrich or 9 pounds on a Probat.  Up through the IR-12  
there's a huge savings in energy with the Diedrichs.
But the communication about the roasting process itself, with regard  
to their own machines, is what is lacking. Obviously, if they had  
done a good job explaining it, I would not be asking questions here.  
I can't afford to roast one coffee 10 different ways and decide which  
has the best flavor, and then do that with every different origin. I  
need a starting place and some knowledge about the parameters of  
profile in regard to flavor. But they never gave any information  
about that, and that's what I thought the seminar was for.
By the way, I emailed Probat Burns before I went with Diedrich and  
besides taking a week to get any kind of reply, they sent a  
comparison chart of the same info on their site but seemed to have  
little else to offer in the way of information about how the roasters  
worked. I think if either of these companies had a marketing staff  
with the equivalent skill as their engineers they would see sales  
skyrocket.
In the mean time, I'm roasting, roasting, roasting...

8) From:
Jeff:
I am thrilled with your purchase. I cannot wait to hear of your results.
You are going to be having way too much fun. Have you given "it" a name yet? I am not sure how you sex a bean roaster!
ginny
thanks for the solid input
---- Jeff Pentel  wrote: 
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9) From: Aaron
Jeff, while I see what you are saying about shitty product information 
coming from Deidrich and very elusive answers, I can also in a way see 
the methodology behind this, though don't agree with it necessarily.
See, they don't know what you like in a coffee, or that you know how to 
roast it properly for that matter.   Just remember, Starbucks thinks 
their method of roasting coffee is the best there is... just as a 
perspective on it all.  At that point in a roast, does it really matter 
anymore?
They also don't know your skill knowledge on roasting coffee either.   
Do you really know what you are talking about, or are you just another 
one of these blow hard idiots trying to sound all big shotty and smart 
using big words you learned in your 2 minute search on the internet 
yesterday?  Maybe you are one of these types who knows everything, and 
firmly believe that god was created in your image?  If they try to tell 
you something, are you going to get all upset because you feel they are 
being condescending to you, ala Pinky and the Brain style,  or are you 
the type who's lips move when you read a stop sign?  They don't know 
this and probably are trying to not get into a situation involving it.   
Then again.... It could also be an ego thing, you talked to "phone sales 
boy" his job is to answer the phone, and he's been told that very 
explicitly .. the tech questions have to go through the exhalted 
engineering group, (with very poor social graces and CS experience) but 
they just build them, they don't actually like coffee mind you...  ::: 
shrug :::
Then there are the differences in setups too,  what is the power coming 
into your machine, what is the temperature where you will be roasting 
at, what kind of ventillation do you have, altitude, what bean types, 
etc etc.
All this stuff can make a big difference on overall machine 
performance.  Yes they should have a general benchmark, saying  ok at 1 
pound and 14 minutes you should see something close to this,  at 16 
minutes etc etc. but then there will still be the types who will scream 
and screech loudly, YOU said I will have coffee in 12 minutes, it TOOK 
14!!!  your product sucks.... ad nauseum.
I have a feeling that these machines are probably kind of like an I 
roast in a way that, no two are going to really behave quite the same, 
so I could send you profiles on what works with my machine, and it won't 
quite do the same with yours.   (for that matter, i have 3 I roasts here 
that operate and one that sounds like a power rouder that I wont use 
unless it's an emergency. and each of them I need to run an identical 
batch and weight of beans slightly different in... this one heats fast, 
this one has a bit less airflow, back off the final temp, this one needs 
a bit hotter dial up etc etc).
Yes it's kind of a sink or swim approach method but I believe eventually 
you will see that, it's the absolute best way that you are going to 
learn how YOUR machine works... and that is the key there, that you 
learn your baby.  No its not fun that you are going to go through pounds 
of coffee tweaking it in but once you do, you will know absolutely what 
it can and can not do, and with what.
Good luck and please share your notes with others as you learn from it.
Aaron

10) From: Branden Byers
If this were the philosphy and insight behind Diedrich not wanting to
share or help with the roasting process on their machines, then I
believe it much better to explain just that to someone who inquires
and wants to know. I would want to purchase a roaster from a company
that wants to be helpful as much as possible. Now, if the expert
advise of the company was that giving detailed information or general
guidelines about roast profiles was detrimental to the learning
process of an individual customer and the company was able to back
this claim with justifiable reason, then I would be more apt to
respect such a company. If a company is unable to answer "how" at
least they can explain why not.
Branden
On 6/17/07, Aaron  wrote:
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11) From: Aaron
sex a bean roaster....
well given they are "beans"  one might be inclined to say it's male.
but when you turn a roasted bean over and look at it.
one might be inclined to say it's female....
just call it "Pat"  it's gender neutral.
Aaron

12) From: Jeff Pentel
Hey Aaron,
Thanks for the thoughts. All valid points, and worth considering.  
However, remember that in the literature they promised to teach  
certain things that they did not. For example, they promised to  
discuss defects. That's not a matter of interpretation, it's  
generally accepted - fermented beans taste bad, unripe beans taste  
bad, etc. Whatever defects are, we were not told about them. Also,  
regarding roasting, I don't think you can base your program on the  
possibility that a participant is going to make unreasonable demands.  
You have to simply tell it like it is. For example, "with this  
particular origin, if you use this temperature profile, the beans  
will taste baked, no two ways about it." Or, "If this bean gets to  
second crack before 12 minutes, generally you will lose this  
characteristic." Cuppers like Tom who sell beans aren't afraid to  
describe flavors or characteristics at certain roast levels, or to  
state what they like. That kind of opinion functions as a valid  
starting point, and from there I can roast however I like. But at  
least now I have a starting point. It's not like he says, "Here's a  
Brazil that's the most chocolaty at a particular roast, but you go  
ahead and figure out what that roast level is, because I can't tell  
you what you like." If that's the case in the seminar, they shouldn't  
be promising to explain how roast profile affects flavor.
And I guess that's the point anyway. It's not that they promise to  
tell you what the best flavor is, it's that they imply that they will  
be giving you guidance about how different profiles make a flavor go  
this way or that. Michael Whitley, the general manager who taught the  
seminar, was asked about the profiles that come preinstalled in the  
automated systems. His advice was, "Delete them." So he's implying  
that their own 'starting points' are worthless and we shouldn't even  
be paying attention to them. If it were my company, I would at least  
say, "This is what we've found to be a profile that professional  
cuppers find to be pleasant for this particular coffee," or at least  
something like that to show that there was a logical reason for  
putting profiles in the system before you buy it.
What I found really frustrating, though, was the refusal to answer  
ANY questions, even when they were worded very specifically; that's  
not what they advertised in the seminar sales pitch.
Back to my point about Tom's advice on certain beans, he will often  
say things like, "My City roasts were baked tasting, underdeveloped."  
Or, "This coffee needs a strong roast treatment." I'll bet if he  
taught a seminar he would give you his personal opinion but also show  
you ways to get different flavors out of the same beans with  
different roast treatments. At the Diedrich seminar we weren't given  
information about any origins at all, where to start, how long to  
roast, anything like that. Not even a ballpark. That's where I think  
they failed. At least put your participants in the ballpark and they  
can fine tune to their own preferences, you know?
cheers,
Jeff

13) From: Jeff Pentel
Or "Blackie"....
On Jun 17, 2007, at 7:09 PM, Aaron wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: Coffeenut
I think it's a "she" and maybe her name is "Deedee".
I didn't know that my F350 Truck was a "she" until my wife informed me that
the truck's name was "Betsy".  The other day it wasn't starting and I was
(apparently) calling the truck the wrong name (#$&^!).  All of a sudden, my
wife said "c'mon Betsy" and it started right up!
So, unless you want to start really having some profile problems, better get
that name right!
:^)
Rick

15) From: Jeff Pentel
Perhaps it is a "she" but I will definitely NOT be naming her Christine.
On Jun 17, 2007, at 8:28 PM, Coffeenut wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: Les
Jeff,  Please take what I am about to say as informational and educational.
Just as you would not ask Ford to teach you how to drive your truck, neither
do the Big Boys really know how to roast coffee beyond the basics.  They
know the technical stuff about their roasters to make them within the
parameters of what is needed for a good roast.  Go to Tom's commercial
roasting page and read his notes and see how to drive a commercial roaster!
I doubt very much that the folks you took your seminar from know much about
custom roasting speciality beans like we are trying to roast them.  You do
have a machine that will do a wonderful roast.  People who buy Corvettes and
Lamborghini's are assumed to know how to drive, same with your machine.  So
have fun, burn some beans and have fun learning.  There are no training
wheels with a commercial roaster.  I have a very nice city roasted Brazil
Yellow Bourbon resting right now that was done on a plug and play machine
that will retail for $300.00.  You were given instructions in your seminar
equal to the plug and play that I have resting.  You are going to have to
learn how to bring out the nuances of the bean on your Dietrich by
developing your own skills.  I enjoyed some awesomely crafted coffee
yesterday by some outstanding roasters (people), not machines.  Jeff, you
are the craftsman that will produce awesome coffee, not the Dietrich.  Just
as my 2 horsepower, digitally controlled Delta lathe makes turning easier
and more predictable, I still have to use my skills as a turner to make
things.
Les
On 6/17/07, Jeff Pentel  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Michael Vanecek
Ditto! I am very interested in that roaster too.
Be well,
Mike
--
Zone 8, Texashttp://www.mjv.com/Home...">http://www.taroandti.com/Exotic Plants and More...http://www.mjv.com/Home...
Branden Byers wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Michael Vanecek
It sounds like the market they are targeting is a market that already
has decent to advanced knowledge and experience in coffee roasting
rather than a newbie market. As in, a "if you have to ask those
questions, you shouldn't be buying my roaster" type of attitude. I still
think their roasters are very nice tho...
Be well,
Mike
--
Zone 8, Texashttp://www.mjv.com/Home...">http://www.taroandti.com/Exotic Plants and More...http://www.mjv.com/Home...
Jeff Pentel wrote:
<Snip>

19) From: miKe mcKoffee
Indeed, not too many new (or not so new) home roasters are lining up to drop
$4k on a 1# roaster. 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

20) From: john nanavati
i was daydreaming about this today after i looked up the roaster from an
earlier post.
this probably isn't a unique thought, but ... i wonder if there's a market
(or if you can build one) to rent roasting time with a machine like this?
you could hold introductory classes, blending, beans 101, have greens or
browns available for sale, and rent 30 min or so time slots for people to
make their own fresh coffee (with expert support).
they don't have any startup costs, it might pay for itself over time, and
you get to play.
On 6/18/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
--
John Nanavati, DHI, CIT
Plainfield, New Jersey

21) From: Floyd Lozano
Jeff was looking for (and possibly was promised) info from roastmasters on
how best to use the tools to achieve certain results.  I too would like to
'apprentice' first and experiment later, but I have little choice in the
matter as I don't know anyone I can sit and watch roast to learn from
(leastwise, nobody proximate).  Some people learn how to swim by being
thrown in the water, and some would prefer to be taught.  Luckily learning
to roast is somewhat less likely to injure anything save your tastebuds!
-F
On 6/18/07, Les  wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Zane Goff
I discovered homeroasating and sweet marias after about a year as an 'apprentice' roaster,
  and if there is one thing i learned in that year+ is that the coffee business is pretty strange.  half of what a roastmaster needs to know isn't about roasting its about running a business. -you've already found a great buyer, so make it 75% now.  there is alot of generated mystique around roasting and when it comes down to it, all you have is coffee + heat over time, really pretty simple.  i never ran the sample roaster, but i watched a few times it was pretty much that equation.  
  my advice is,
   
  -buy lots of cheaper, not cheapest, coffees and experiment with roast times and temperatures -you'll learn alot this way -more than just duplicating someone else's profile all day.
  -pay attention to the people on this list -chances are some of them know more about roasting -and are honest about what they know- than the average commercial roaster.
  -get a subscription to roast magazine -thats an apprenticeship right there.
  -everything else you can find here or at coffeegeek or the fanatics' webpages.
   
  while i still value my experience in the industry (it helped me get good roasts from my P1 right away) but i've had a lot more fun doing it at home, and the coffee is usually better (sometimes i space out).  
  if you wanted to learn how to cook at home would you get a job in a kitchen? maybe, but you'll end up having to wash alot of dishes and chop alot of onions -things that don't really help you make a good meal.  thats just my two beans worth.
   
  zane
  Jeff was looking for (and possibly was promised) info from roastmasters on how best to use the tools to achieve certain results.  I too would like to 'apprentice' first and experiment later, but I have little choice in the matter as I don't know anyone I can sit and watch roast to learn from (leastwise, nobody proximate).  Some people learn how to swim by being thrown in the water, and some would prefer to be taught.  Luckily learning to roast is somewhat less likely to injure anything save your tastebuds! 
  -F
  On 6/18/07, Les  wrote:     ... You are going to have to learn how to bring out the nuances of the bean on your Dietrich by developing your own skills.  I enjoyed some awesomely crafted coffee yesterday by some outstanding roasters (people), not machines.  Jeff, you are the craftsman that will produce awesome coffee, not the Dietrich.  Just as my 2 horsepower, digitally controlled Delta lathe makes turning easier and more predictable, I still have to use my skills as a turner to make things. 
   
  Les
 
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