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Topic: OT "Don't Send" (was Re: +Specialty Sites) (34 msgs / 1055 lines)
1) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
Angelo,  Why should I be expected to delete half the posts on a list that 
produces 40-50 emails a day?  "JUST" doesn't cover it, for me. I'm busy, I work. 
If it's so easy for so many of us wanting strictly conversations about coffee to 
each hit 'DELETE' 20-25 times a day, it seems to me it is easier for other 
people to just not hit the 'SEND' button in the first place. Why must we pay the 
price of wasted time for their lack of discipline and need for gab?  'DON'T 
SEND' seems the more economic and democratic solution. Of course, there is 
always the 'UNSUBSCRIBE' button, which is looking more and more attractive every 
day.
Dan

2) From: Leo Zick
amen.
On 6/22/07, Dan Bollinger  wrote:
<Snip>

3) From:
---- Dan Bollinger  wrote: 
<Snip>

4) From:
Dan:
Clearly I understand your point. It can be a real pain in the butt. I have solved the problem by simply reading what I want on a page (50 per page max on this system), then select all and delete the rest. On click.
I am one of those who do find (some) of the wandering conversation very interesting.
I honestly do believe there is room for all.
thanks,
ginny
---- Dan Bollinger  wrote: 
<Snip>

5) From: Jeff Oien
I guess I'm also one of those BMW (b*tch moan wine) people who would 
like a coffee list to be about coffee (what a concept!) which also 
happens to be what the list owner wants.
Having last year's Brazil DP CoE #2 which is fading but at City+ is 
still pretty good.
JeffO
Leo Zick wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: Tom Ulmer
There is a curmudgeon-online mailing list. This, I believe, is another
possible side-effect of caffeine...
Complaining about having to hit the delete key reminds me of the
osteoporosis medication commercial where Sally Fields touts how much more
convenient and life changing taking a pill once a month versus once a week
is.
Cheers.

7) From: Mike Koenig
For anyone concerned with a high list volume, I hightly recommend
using Gmail as your mail reader.  You can either use it with your
current e-mail account, or subscribe with a separate e-mail address.
There are several features I really like for lists:
1.  It automaticaly threads messages.  This nicely organizes the
random spurts of various topics into neat threads.  Makes the whole
experience a little more like a web forum.  This makes it very easy to
ignore threads that aren't interesting, with no effort at all.
2.  It has good filtering tools.  You can easily create a filter that
will automatically put all list messages into a separate view (gmail
calls them labels).   I have one "label" for each of the lists I
subscribe to, and a filter that looks at the to: field to
automatically sort.  You can also make a nice filter to remove any
post with OT in the title if you wish (but with the threading feature,
I'd just rather ignore what I'm not interested in).  You can also try
it out before you mangle your whole inbox with a bad filter.
3.  You can keep all your nicely organized messages forever, and it's
very easy to search.
4.  The spam filter is one of the best I've seen anywhere.  Very few
false ID's either positive or negative.
Since I started using Gmail, I spend ZERO time on "inbox management"
from any of my various lists I'm subscribed to.  The OT items become
much more tolerable, and sometimes even interesting.
I think they are still requiring that you be "invited" to sign up for
an account, but I'm not sure.  If anyone would like an invite, let me
know off-list.
--mike
On 6/22/07, Dan Bollinger  wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Brian Kamnetz
I also use Gmail for this list, for all the reasons Mike mentions. I also
would be happy to "invite" anyone who wants one. Please ask off list.
Brian
On 6/22/07, Mike Koenig  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Donald Varona
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Unfortunately not everyone works the same way with e-mail.  I had the 
same issues because all the hundreds of messages per day were coming 
into my inbox.  I was using the digests, but that still sends six 
digests per day... sheesh, not very digested.
The best way I've found to manage this is similar to what Mike Koenig did:
1.  Set up your mail reader to direct anything sent to 
"homeroast" to another folder, or another view or 
something separate.
2.  Use any threading capabilities of your reader to sort the message 
into conversations.  Then you can peek into conversations, or ignore 
whole threads at your leisure.  If your reader doesn't thread, order 
first by subject then by time.  This will come close to threading (I 
have to do this in Thunderbird).
3.  Alternately, throw them away and use the threaded version at the 
private archives.  You won't be able to reply as easily this way.
You'll have to do something Dan to be able to sip from the firehose.  
Otherwise you'll just have to beat your head on the wall, or give up 
altogether.
--dv
Tom Ulmer wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Donald Varona
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Oh, and periodically I throw all the homeroast messages away, 
permanently without dropping them into the trash.  I can always use the 
archives if I want to look back.  I can't read them all anyway.
--dv
Donald Varona wrote:
<Snip>

11) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-35-256510615
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I use Mac Mail (comes with OS X) and it highlights all messages in  
the same thread--with one click I can sort by message header and  
delete entire blocks of messages in a couple of seconds.
On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:44 PM, Donald Varona wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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I use Mac Mail (comes with OS X) =
and it highlights all messages in the same thread--with one click I can =
sort by message header and delete entire blocks of messages in a couple =
of seconds.
On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:44 PM, Donald Varona =
wrote:
Unfortunately not everyone works the same way with = e-mail.  I had the same issues because all the hundreds of messages = per day were coming into my inbox.  I was using the digests, but that = still sends six digests per day... sheesh, not very digested. = The best way I've found to manage this is similar to what Mike Koenig = did: 1.  Set up your mail reader to direct anything sent to "homeroast= as.com" to another folder, or another view or something = separate. 2.  Use any threading capabilities of your reader to = sort the message into conversations.  Then you can peek into = conversations, or ignore whole threads at your leisure.  If your = reader doesn't thread, order first by subject then by time.  This will = come close to threading (I have to do this in Thunderbird). 3.  = Alternately, throw them away and use the threaded version at the private = archives.  You won't be able to reply as easily this way. = You'll have to do something Dan to be able to sip from the firehose.  = Otherwise you'll just have to beat your head on the wall, or give up = altogether. --dv Tom Ulmer wrote: There is a curmudgeon-online mailing list. This, I believe, is = another possible side-effect of caffeine... Complaining about having to hit the delete key reminds me of the osteoporosis medication commercial where Sally Fields touts how much = more convenient and life changing taking a pill once a month versus once a = week is. Cheers.

12) From: Angelo
On my email client, Eudora, I can group the messages (as many as 
needs be) by subject (1 click), Shift select (1 key, 1click) plus 1 
more click for delete and I'm done.....  .
If that's too much work, well then, do what you have to do. It sounds 
like you don't have you're email client figured out yet.
I don't own a Hottop, nor an Iroast. Yet, there are usually messages 
ad infinitum about them. I do my 3-click shuffle and poof! all gone...
I don't ask people not to send them, nor do I whine about them, nor 
do I run to Tom asking him to please do something about those kids 
throwing popcorn...
If it really bothered me that much, I would quietly fold my tent and 
steal away in the night...
A
<Snip>

13) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Donald, I don't have a problem dealing with many coffee related posts, =
that's why I'm here. If I want to read about other topics I'll go to =
alt.fountain.pens, or one of the other 50,000 forums online. Dan
 
<Snip>
Otherwise you'll just have to beat your head on the wall, or give up =
altogether.

14) From: Donald Varona
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Honestly I have never been a part of an online forum that does not 
somehow always wander into off-topic posts.  I'm not saying that makes 
it right, but it's human nature I think.  Anything that requires that 
humans remember to do something procedurally instead of it happening 
automatically is a source for problems.
(Something I've learned in my career as a software developer.)
--dv
Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Rich
Just think of this list as a modern, electronic coffee house.  If you do that then you will understand why 
the discussion goes "off topic" every so often.  This is no different than sitting around in your living room 
with a large group of friends who are all very interested in specialty coffee and home roasting.
--Original Message Text---
From: Donald Varona
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:50:27 -0400
Honestly I have never been a part of an online forum that does not somehow always wander into off-topic 
posts.  I'm not saying that makes it right, but it's human nature I think.  Anything that requires that 
humans remember to do something procedurally instead of it happening automatically is a source for 
problems.
(Something I've learned in my career as a software developer.)
--dv
Dan Bollinger wrote: Donald, I don't have a problem dealing with many coffee related posts, that's why I'm 
here. If I want to read about other topics I'll go to alt.fountain.pens, or one of the other 50,000 forums online. 
Dan 
<Snip>
head on the wall, or give up altogether.

16) From: Lynne Biziewski
I like that analogy. It just seems nice when people discover they share
another interest.
It's all part, IMO, of the human experience.
Lynne
p.s. occassionally I even learn a thing or two about a subject in which I
previously had no interest, too. Of
course, as others have mentioned, using gmail (NOT in digest form in any
email client - too messy & confusing) makes it all so much easier, too...
On 6/23/07, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: John Moody
That is not the intent of our list Hosts; to use this list as a chat room.
From Tom: Off topic posting is discouraged, but if it is a spinoff of a
coffee-related thread, please use the subject line convention "OT".
OT posts drive contributors away.
Very experienced roasters are here to help, purely out of kindness, and if
they have to rummage through messages that have nothing to do with the
purpose of the list, many will not bother and leave.
I am not singling out the one who posted the message below, but simply
responding to an opinion that many here (but I believe to be in the
minority) have.
John

18) From: Lynne Biziewski
John, I understand this. However, many people (experienced or otherwise)
have
considered, or have already decided to leave - due to some very rude nasty
notes.
I, also, do not intend to single out anyone - I am speaking aboutmany, many
instances of downright rude, nasty comments that have occurred in the past
few
months.
Maybe I'm just too thin-skinned - but I don't believe there is any reason
(or excuse)
for that. And, I too, realize that I have that very handy delete button...
but I'm
losing my patience with people with a case of the severe meanies.
Lynne
Very experienced roasters are here to help, purely out of kindness, and if
<Snip>

19) From: Barbara Greenspon
I wonder where the idea comes from that the Very Experienced Roasters  
are objecting to occasional of topic threads?  This subject rears its  
head every so often and we go all over it, and then it comes up again  
in a few months or so.  This is not a typical list.  Many people on  
it have become connected with each other, though in many cases never  
have met each other.  We are usually on coffee topics, and I believe  
most of us are quite delighted with the infrequent twists and turns  
that always come back to our first purpose, buying, roasting, brewing  
and drinking/sharing the best possible coffee any of us can imagine.
While I certainly agree that this is not a "chat room", it is indeed  
one of the best online communities many of us have ever been a part of.
Barbara
On Jun 23, 2007, at 2:46 PM, John Moody wrote:
<Snip>

20) From: Jeff Oien
Many, many good roasters have left the list because of too much noise.
JeffO
Barbara Greenspon wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: Brett Mason
Amen Barbara!
Oh, and my guitar strings are playing great!
Brett
On 6/24/07, Barbara Greenspon  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

22) From: Brett Mason
OK Folks, get a grip.
Your noise is my special subject.
My noise is your special subject.
Seems Ornery people only hate everyone else's noise.
Their own noise is special, and therefore, exempt.
The rest of us are supposed to Channel Barbara Walters or something, and
then somehow only follow the "accepted" off-topics.  The "unaccepted"
off-topics are reason to leave.
Weren't you guys supposed to all leave the country when Bush got elected?
What's wrong, forgot to buy the tickets?
Brett
On 6/24/07, Jeff Oien  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

23) From: Floyd Lozano
Politics - unacceptable!
-F
On 6/24/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

24) From: Michael Mccandless
Straying off topic is just human nature.
When it continues, it becomes a problem & needs to go elswhere.
Like music, what one person loves may be fingernails on a chalkboard to
another.
Everyone here has coffee in common.
McSparky
On 6/24/07, Barbara Greenspon  wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: Brett Mason
I picked up my Bic pen tonight.  Took it to  (OMG, introduces
religion), and used it for note taking.  I noted the plastic was nicely
turned, even smooth, and th color was a fine gray, consistent from one end
to the other.  I noted the fine way the medium ball point distributes ink to
the paper, even as I wrote my phone number to give to another so he could
get green beans from me.  I do wonder the composition of the ink.  Is that
Bic specialty ink, or is it more the common ink?  And what balance I find in
the pen.
Pens and coffee - coffee and pens.  We was like peas and Carrots (Forrest
Gump)
Hope that is better,
Brett
On 6/24/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

26) From: Brett Mason
By the way, the issue is not politics at all.
The issue is "bad sandbox behavior".
That is, if a participant's attendance is only predicated on whether their
own favorite topic is the focus, then they need to rethink it.
And Floyd, you should know better.  I put the political statement out there
because it signifies the self-centered attitude of "My topic is acceptable
while your topic is OFF" - and that's the heart of the matter, isn't it?
But maybe you still can get those tickets...
Brett
On 6/24/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

27) From: Jeff Oien
I didn't think that was the intent of the exchange I was a part of 
(which got deleted). I was only stating that a lot of good roasters and 
good people have left the list because of the noise. Most people like 
the noise and that's how it will be. While people like me need to accept 
that, I was just pointing out the fact and lamenting the loss.
I'm moving to Canada.
JeffO
Brett Mason wrote:
<Snip>

28) From: Aaron
Last time I checked OT in the header meant Off Topic.
How hard is it for folks to delete the mail that starts with OT.... or 
has the word Pens in the topic for that matter if I am not a pen enthusiast?
What about mails that are about the Hot Top ... which is also a device I 
do not own?   wow, filters work wonders there too.
I don't see all the 'good people' leaving in droves because of a few OT 
E mails... but since were still here, I guess that makes the rest of us 
... not quite good people then eh?  ....  cool, I like that :)
I think what a big part of the problem is, not necessarily trolls 
invading again, but some people get their mail or read it once a week or 
something, then answer each letter as they read it, without checking to 
see how many other replies have been given to it  or if the topic has 
been put to rest already, then immediately put their two cents into it, 
and whammo, we resurrect a stale tired ole topic again.
I am going to go out on a limb here, and probably get accused of hate 
speech again or whatever the secret word of the week is but..... for 
those who read their mail every few days, or less frequently, how about 
sorting your e mail by topic, or topic date,  or at least checking the 
date of the message that you are replying to?  If you are going to 
autonomically hit reply to a post that is 6 days old, you just might 
want to check to see if there is any further history on it before you 
add yours.  There's nothing more entertaining than seeing a topic that's 
been done for a while, especally one that turned into a food fight,  
appear out of nowhere again, because someone happened to stumble on it 
somehow.
yes I know I know, how dare me me even hint that someone should be 
proactive to a situation instead of the rest of the world being reactive 
to their "issue".  I better book those appointments for my sensitivity 
class again.
Oh and another thing...  Brett, next time you use one of MY posts for an 
example of what not to do....  you will owe me half a pound of beans as 
a royalty fee :) .... other authors get paid if their work is used 
somewhere, so therefore I want MY cut of the bean stash!!
have a good one everyone, and for those of you who can't because *I* 
suggested it..... have an  better one.
Aaron

29) From:
I was going to stay away from this until I read what Barbara and Brett wrote.
I could not agree with them more. Noise is everywhere read it or dump it. There has been more noise about the noise from those who contribute less to the list then ever; this particular conversation brings out every lookie loo on the coffee internet!
it is always the same conversation.
The "Very Experienced Roasters" all want to quit over talk about cheesecake or the new Harley Nightster!! 
We are a very unique community here and I believe the friendly conversation is what keeps the new roaster here on this list. Clearly it is a coffee learning list but like the family dinner table conversation moves to "other" stuff. I always get right back to mostly coffee so what is the big deal? 
Not long ago one of our  "Very Experienced Roasters" told some obviously new person to check the archives because "they" were obviously sick of the same talk, the same old subject. It is always going to be the same talk because we have new roasters daily who want the same help someone wanted two weeks ago.
The new kid on the block gets help and talk goes sideways, life!!
regards,
ginny
---- Brett Mason  wrote: 
<Snip>

30) From: Floyd Lozano
Obviously tongue in cheek was I.  Keep those tix for the next election ;)
-F
On 6/24/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

31) From: Justin Marquez
Cats have the *worst* "sandbox behavior".
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On 6/24/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

32) From: Angelo
Nice Zen approach.... There's hope for you yet
Btw, I think you need to tighten the A a tad...
<Snip>

33) From: Leo Zick
bic is headquartered near my house..
<Snip>

34) From: Kevin St.Pierre
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Ginny,
You hit the nail on the head.  The list is a sort of coffee house  
unto itself.  That's why I love it.
Kevin
On Jun 25, 2007, at 5:27 AM,   
 wrote:
<Snip>
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Ginny,
You hit the nail on the = head.  The list is a sort of coffee house unto itself.  That's why I = love it.  
Kevin



= On Jun 25, 2007, at 5:27 AM, <pchforever> <pchforever> = wrote:
I was going to stay away from = this until I read what Barbara and Brett wrote. I could = not agree with them more. Noise is everywhere read it or dump it. There = has been more noise about the noise from those who contribute less to = the list then ever; this particular conversation brings out every lookie = loo on the coffee internet! it is always the same = conversation. The "Very Experienced Roasters" all want to quit = over talk about cheesecake or the new Harley Nightster!!  We are a very = unique community here and I believe the friendly conversation is what = keeps the new roaster here on this list. Clearly it is a coffee learning = list but like the family dinner table conversation moves to "other" = stuff. I always get right back to mostly coffee so what is the big = deal?  Not long = ago one of our  "Very = Experienced Roasters" told some obviously new person to check the = archives because "they" were obviously sick of the same talk, the same = old subject. It is always going to be the same talk because we have new = roasters daily who want the same help someone wanted two weeks = ago. The new kid on the block gets help and talk goes = sideways, life!! regards, ginny ---- Brett = Mason <homeroast> = wrote:  OK Folks, get a grip. Your = noise is my special subject.My noise is = your special subject.Seems Ornery people only = hate everyone else's noise.Their own = noise is special, and therefore, exempt. The rest of = us are supposed to Channel Barbara Walters or something, andthen somehow only follow the "accepted" = off-topics.  The = "unaccepted"off-topics are reason to = leave. Weren't you guys supposed to all leave the country = when Bush got elected?What's wrong, forgot to buy = the tickets? Brett On 6/24/07, Jeff Oien <jeff> = wrote: Many, many good roasters have = left the list because of too much noise. Barbara Greenspon wrote: I wonder where the idea comes = from that the Very Experienced Roastersare = objecting to occasional of topic threads?  This subject rears = itshead every so often and we go = all over it, and then it comes up again ina few = months or so.  This is = not a typical list.  Many = people on it havebecome connected with each = other, though in many cases never have meteach = other.  We are usually on = coffee topics, and I believe most of usare = quite delighted with the infrequent twists and turns that = alwayscome back to our first purpose, = buying, roasting, brewing and While I certainly agree that this is not a "chat = room", it is indeed oneof the best = online communities many of us have ever been a part of. On Jun 23, 2007, at 2:46 PM, = John Moody wrote: = That is not the intent of = our list Hosts; to use this list as a chatFrom Tom: Off topic posting is = discouraged, but if it is a spinoff of a OT posts drive contributors away.Very experienced roasters are here to help, purely = out of kindness,and ifthey have to rummage through messages that have = nothing to do with thepurpose of the list, many = will not bother and leave. I am not singling out the one = who posted the message below, but simplyminority) have.


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