HomeRoast Digest


Topic: List, and Madison espresso (9 msgs / 737 lines)
1) From: Sandy Andina
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(For the list, which had been down for awhile, my Livia had a total  
existential meltdown this morning when I turned her on after being  
off all weekend--this time water didn't come pouring immediately out  
the grouphead, but instead out the solenoid valve outlet into the  
drip tray, as well as out the bottom of my machine; and the needle on  
the pressure gauge stuttered at the "cold" position all the way to  
the left, and then shot all the way right and began twitching like a  
heart in v-fib.  Called Pasquini, who confirmed the warranty had  
expired and recommended a couple of Chicago-area repair shops: see  
below):
Found a Chicago repair source--Shop Espresso, 5951 W. Lawrence (1/2  
hr drive in moderate traffic), 773-481-6990.  They will charge $250,  
but do a complete teardown and refurb. They agree that it's probably  
either the p'stat or the circuitry gone haywire.  BTW, they showed me  
an entire shelf full of home machines they keep only to cannibalize  
for parts:  Saeco/Estro/Barista, Jura Capresso (they fix only the  
biggest ones for law and medical offices, and say even the best  
superautos can be expected to break down at least once and as many as  
six times a year), Francis! Francis!, etc.  (Didn't ask about Gaggia,  
but I get the impression it'd meet with their approval). They won't  
even bother with Krups or DeLonghi, even for harvesting parts.  They  
do like Rancilio and Pasquini for home machines, and think Cimbali  
and Faema are more reliable than LaMarzocco.   They also advised me  
against PID'ing Silvia--they've gotten too many machines (home and  
pro) in with shot counters and PIDs that accidentally sent out pulses  
that fried the motherboards in the machines themselves.
On Jul 16, 2007, at 1:12 PM, Brian Kamnetz wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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(For the list, which had =
been down for awhile, my Livia had a total existential meltdown this =
morning when I turned her on after being off all weekend--this time =
water didn't come pouring immediately out the grouphead, but instead out =
the solenoid valve outlet into the drip tray, as well as out the bottom =
of my machine; and the needle on the pressure gauge stuttered at the =
"cold" position all the way to the left, and then shot all the way right =
and began twitching like a heart in v-fib.  Called Pasquini, who =
confirmed the warranty had expired and recommended a couple of =
Chicago-area repair shops: see below):
Found a Chicago repair = source--Shop Espresso, 5951 W. Lawrence (1/2 hr drive in moderate = traffic), 773-481-6990.  They will charge $250, but do a complete = teardown and refurb. They agree that it's probably either the p'stat or = the circuitry gone haywire.  BTW, they showed me an entire shelf full = of home machines they keep only to cannibalize for parts:  = Saeco/Estro/Barista, Jura Capresso (they fix only the biggest ones for = law and medical offices, and say even the best superautos can be = expected to break down at least once and as many as six times a year), = Francis! Francis!, etc.  (Didn't ask about Gaggia, but I get the = impression it'd meet with their approval). They won't even bother with = Krups or DeLonghi, even for harvesting parts.  They do like Rancilio = and Pasquini for home machines, and think Cimbali and Faema are more = reliable than LaMarzocco.   They also advised me against PID'ing = Silvia--they've gotten too many machines (home and pro) in with shot = counters and PIDs that accidentally sent out pulses that fried the = motherboards in the machines themselves. On Jul 16, 2007, = at 1:12 PM, Brian Kamnetz wrote:
Good luck = with your Livia. Hope you are able to find someone local who is = competent in espresso machinery. After reading of your = difficulties with the Livia, and miKe's with his espresso machine, I = don't feel so bad about having never even tried the Gaggia Espresso I = bought from Tom and Maria a while back. Maybe in August I can fire it = up.... Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-5-154061307--

2) From: Mike Chester
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
They also advised me against PID'ing Silvia--they've gotten too many =
machines (home and pro) in with shot counters and PIDs that accidentally =
sent out pulses that fried the motherboards in the machines themselves.
Sandy,
They are trying to hand you a line of BS.  I have installed PIDs in =
Sylvias and there is no motherboard or other electronics in one to fry.  =
The OEM Sylvia has switches, 2 thermostats, and a heating element.  =
There are absolutely no electronics inside.  After adding the PID, there =
is a thermocouple, and a solid state relay which is an electronic device =
as well as the PID itself which is usually located outside the housing.  =
 
Having said this, some people are adding PIDs to machines that have =
electronics, but syl is not one of them.
Mike Chester

3) From: Sandy Andina
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They might have misunderstood and thought I was asking about PID'ing  
the Livia.   Anyway, since Silvia only gets used for backup and  
hauling to espressoless friends' homes for parties, it's not worth  
spending the money to have her PID'ed--and I'm not about to do it  
myself.  They have gotten electronic machines in which PIDs and shot  
counters did send out the "offending" pulses.
On Jul 16, 2007, at 4:21 PM, Mike Chester wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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They might have misunderstood =
and thought I was asking about PID'ing the Livia.   Anyway, since =
Silvia only gets used for backup and hauling to espressoless friends' =
homes for parties, it's not worth spending the money to have her =
PID'ed--and I'm not about to do it myself.  They have gotten =
electronic machines in which PIDs and shot counters did send out the =
"offending" pulses.
On Jul 16, 2007, at 4:21 PM, Mike =
Chester wrote:
They also = advised me against PID'ing Silvia--they've gotten too many machines = (home and pro) in with shot counters and PIDs that accidentally sent out = pulses that fried the motherboards in the machines = themselves.  They are = trying to hand you a line of BS.  I have installed PIDs in Sylvias and = there is no motherboard or other electronics in one to fry.  The OEM = Sylvia has switches, 2 thermostats, and a heating element.  There = are absolutely no electronics inside.  After adding the PID, there = is a thermocouple, and a solid state relay which is an electronic = device as well as the PID itself which is usually located outside the = housing.   Having said = this, some people are adding PIDs to machines that have electronics, but = syl is not one of them. Mike = Chester  
= Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-7-156089548--

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
Won't say it was "intentional" BS, will say that's somewhere I wouldn't let
touch any piece of my equipment. Can't say from personal experience whether
the simpler less temp stable likes of Cimbali or Faema are more reliable
than a LaMarzocco. Can say I know a long time nuclear reactor engineer who
is now also LaMarzocco certified who is very impressed with LaMarzocco build
quality. I would agree more complex systems can potentially screw up more,
especially if someone who doesn't know what they're doing screws with them.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Mike Chester
	Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:22 PM
	
Sandy said: They also advised me against PID'ing Silvia--they've gotten too
many machines (home and pro) in with shot counters and PIDs that
accidentally sent out pulses that fried the motherboards in the machines
themselves.
	 
	Sandy,
	 
	They are trying to hand you a line of BS.  I have installed PIDs in
Sylvias and there is no motherboard or other electronics in one to fry.  The
OEM Sylvia has switches, 2 thermostats, and a heating element.  There are
absolutely no electronics inside.  After adding the PID, there is a
thermocouple, and a solid state relay which is an electronic device as well
as the PID itself which is usually located outside the housing.   
	Having said this, some people are adding PIDs to machines that have
electronics, but syl is not one of them.
	 
	Mike Chester

5) From:
I ran across a kit to PID Silvia-looks very clean, great instructions, etc. Here's the link:http://www.pidkits.com/manualpages.html---- Sandy Andina  wrote: 
<Snip>

6) From: Sandy Andina
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Thanks for the info, but I am not a tinkerer. Changing gaskets and  
removing the shower screen is about as hands-on as I get--the p'stat  
replacement on Livia was a traumatic experience (as was the first  
gasket replacement).
On Jul 16, 2007, at 5:49 PM, thirddayhomeroaster wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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Thanks for the info, but I am =
not a tinkerer. Changing gaskets and removing the shower screen is about =
as hands-on as I get--the p'stat replacement on Livia was a traumatic =
experience (as was the first gasket replacement).
On Jul =
16, 2007, at 5:49 PM, thirddayhomeroaster=
r.net wrote:
I ran across a kit to PID = Silvia-looks very clean, great instructions, etc. Here's the link: http://www.pidkits.com/ma=nualpages.html---- Sandy Andina <sandraandina> = wrote:  They might have misunderstood = and thought I was asking about PID'ing  the = Livia.   Anyway, since = Silvia only gets used for backup and  hauling = to espressoless friends' homes for parties, it's not worth  spending = the money to have her PID'ed--and I'm not about to do it    They have = gotten electronic machines in which PIDs and shot  counters = did send out the "offending" pulses.On Jul 16, = 2007, at 4:21 PM, Mike Chester wrote: They also advised me against PID'ing Silvia--they've = gotten too  many machines (home and pro) in with shot counters = and PIDs that  accidentally sent out pulses that fried the = motherboards in the  machines = themselves. Sandy, They are trying to hand you a = line of BS.  I have = installed PIDs in  Sylvias and there is no motherboard or other = electronics in one to    The OEM Sylvia = has switches, 2 thermostats, and a heating    There are = absolutely no electronics inside. = After adding  the PID, = there is a thermocouple, and a solid state relay which is  an = electronic device as well as the PID itself which is usually  located = outside the housing.Having said this, some = people are adding PIDs to machines that have   Mike = Chester Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-9-161092526--

7) From: Homeroaster
Before you send it off, use a strong descaler in your blank portafilter to 
see if you can unstick the solenoid actuated three way valve.  They stick 
'open' once in a while if there is gunk inside.  I'd almost bet money on 
this one as a simple fix.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

8) From: Sandy Andina
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I did a thorough Cafiza backflush and parts-soak last week  
preparatory to replacing the gasket and shower screen (which never  
happened because I didn't realize those were redesigned--thought  
Pasquini had sold me the wrong ones.   Meanwhile, I already took  
Livia to the shop (by the time I typed the message), where she'll be  
for the next week. Pasquini thought it was a p'stat &/or even  
touchpad-membrane issue because of the leak out the bottom (which was  
what happened when it was new and had a leaky p'stat) and the odd  
behavior of the gauge--if the solenoid was stuck open, it would not  
explain the gush out the grouphead.  Anyway, they will fine-tune it  
and install the new gasket & shower screen far better than I could  
(or have the time to).   Interestingly, when I spoke to Cafe West the  
first time after they walked me through replacing the p'stat over the  
phone and asked about water recommendations, they said not to descale  
it--daily water and periodic detergent backflush (plus the proper  
brewing water--they recommended Crystal Geyser) was all I should do  
beyond removing the shower screen and soaking the parts.  They don't  
believe in descaling HX machines--but by contrast, contrary to the  
Silvia owners' manual, said that a water backflush (but not Cafiza)  
was okay for Silvia, and a descaling was recommended.
On Jul 16, 2007, at 7:11 PM, Homeroaster wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-11-174020253
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I did a thorough Cafiza =
backflush and parts-soak last week preparatory to replacing the gasket =
and shower screen (which never happened because I didn't realize those =
were redesigned--thought Pasquini had sold me the wrong ones.  =
 Meanwhile, I already took Livia to the shop (by the time I typed the =
message), where she'll be for the next week. Pasquini thought it was a =
p'stat &/or even touchpad-membrane issue because of the leak out the =
bottom (which was what happened when it was new and had a leaky p'stat) =
and the odd behavior of the gauge--if the solenoid was stuck open, it =
would not explain the gush out the grouphead.  Anyway, they will =
fine-tune it and install the new gasket & shower screen far better =
than I could (or have the time to).   Interestingly, when I spoke to =
Cafe West the first time after they walked me through replacing the =
p'stat over the phone and asked about water recommendations, they said =
not to descale it--daily water and periodic detergent backflush (plus =
the proper brewing water--they recommended Crystal Geyser) was all I =
should do beyond removing the shower screen and soaking the parts.  =
They don't believe in descaling HX machines--but by contrast, contrary =
to the Silvia owners' manual, said that a water backflush (but not =
Cafiza) was okay for Silvia, and a descaling was =
recommended.On Jul 16, 2007, at 7:11 PM, Homeroaster =
wrote:
Before you send it off, use a = strong descaler in your blank portafilter to see if you can unstick the = solenoid actuated three way valve. = They stick 'open' once in a while if there is gunk inside.  I'd almost bet money on this = one as a simple fix.Ed = Needham"to absurdity and = beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************----- = Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Andina" <sandraandina>To: "Brian Kamnetz" <bkamnetz>Cc: <homeroast= s.com>Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 5:01 = PMSubject: +Re: List, and Madison = espresso (For the list, which had been = down for awhile, my Livia had a totaloff all weekend--this time water = didn't come pouring immediately outthe = grouphead, but instead out the solenoid valve outlet into thedrip tray, as well as out the bottom of my machine; = and the needle onthe pressure gauge stuttered at = the "cold" position all the way tothe left, and = then shot all the way right and began twitching like aheart in v-fib. = Called Pasquini, who confirmed the warranty hadexpired and recommended a couple of Chicago-area = repair shops: seebelow): Found a = Chicago repair source--Shop Espresso, 5951 W. Lawrence (1/2hr drive in moderate traffic), 773-481-6990.  They will charge = $250,but do a complete teardown and = refurb. They agree that it's probablyeither = the p'stat or the circuitry gone haywire.  BTW, they showed mean entire shelf full of home machines they keep only = to cannibalizefor parts:  Saeco/Estro/Barista, Jura = Capresso (they fix only thebiggest ones = for law and medical offices, and say even the bestsuperautos can be expected to break down at least = once and as many assix times a year), Francis! = Francis!, etc.  (Didn't = ask about Gaggia,but I get the impression it'd = meet with their approval). They won'teven = bother with Krups or DeLonghi, even for harvesting parts.  Theydo like Rancilio and Pasquini for home machines, and = think Cimbaliand Faema are more reliable than = LaMarzocco.   They also = advised meagainst PID'ing Silvia--they've = gotten too many machines (home andpro) in with = shot counters and PIDs that accidentally sent out pulsesthat fried the motherboards in the machines = themselves.On Jul 16, 2007, at 1:12 PM, = Brian Kamnetz wrote:Good luck = with your Livia. Hope you are able to find someone localwho is competent in espresso machinery. After = reading of your difficulties with the Livia, and miKe's withhis espresso machine, I don't feel so bad about = having never eventried the Gaggia Espresso I = bought from Tom and Maria a while back.Maybe in = August I can fire it up.... Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-11-174020253--

9) From: raymanowen
I agree, there is no substitute for experience, but there is negligible hope
for these Baboons that ignore signal grounds:
"They also advised me against PID'ing Silvia--they've gotten too many
machines (home and pro) in with shot counters and PIDs that accidentally
sent out pulses that fried the motherboards in the machines themselves."
It's not so bad when the whole thing is low powered and power line
frequency. Still, ignore the signal and power grounds and you'll need
stitches in uncomfortable places when you get bitten.
PID temperature controls can't possibly "fry" anything if they're properly
configured and installed. They also can't compensate for a deficit in heat
capacity if an adequate thermal reservoir and heat exchanger don't exist.
A PID controller can tame a high powered heater, not magnify a weakfish and
generate heat energy at a rate that doesn't match the heat drain out of the
system. The world doesn't need another Kludge- why reinvent the wheel?
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
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