HomeRoast Digest


Topic: New "mid-range"Hottop model available (43 msgs / 1618 lines)
1) From: DJ Garcia
Looks like it falls in between the Digital and the Programmable models ...http://www.hottopusa.com/news.htmlOnly thing that strikes me odd is the "eject upon reaching target
temperature" behavior. I hope that can be turned off.
DJ

2) From: miKe mcKoffee
See also Randy's H-B thread and 1st Look:http://www.home-barista.com/forums/new-model-hottop-kn-8828b-first-look-t4504.html
Not sure why ability to auto-eject at a selected target temp seems odd,
seems could be useful to me. My understanding "turn off" by selecting higher
target temp than anticipated needing for finish degree of roast and then
manually ejecting. If during roast it appears the target temp will be hit
before desired degree of roast simply raise the target temp on the fly.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

3) From: Jeffrey Pawlan
1.  Note the increased price relative to the original one. After reading all the
list hoopla about a $300 smokeless roaster, I wonder if hottop will keep its
marketshare? Of course, I wonder whether that $300 roaster will be able to do
roasts that are 13-17 minutes to FC+ and still keep the beans even and
unscorched. Also, cooling time should be 2 minutes or less.
2.  It is about time that hottop took my lead in making a manual control for all
functions. I am sure it will be welcomed by many people, if they want to spend
the money. ($220 for the hottopusa upgrade kit)
3.  There is no change in the way temperature is monitored. It is the
temperature of the back wall and not the beans. This is important not only
because the readout does not really reflect the roast, but the instructions on
this news page state that the beans will be automatically dumped at 431 degrees.
This is good because there is a thermal fuse behind the rear panel which burns
out at 431 degrees. I know because I have replaced it for hottop users who let
theirs get too hot. I assure you that if the back wall gets to 431 degrees then
the beans will be at 475 or higher and will likely be catching on fire. And
replacing this fuse is VERY time-consuming and definitely not free.
Jeffrey Pawlan
www.computercontrolledroaster.com

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
Replies interspersed below 
<Snip>
Hmmm, documented times & temps for Behmor roast "HotTop" size batch of Yirg'
H-B thread Saturday, 12:45 to just before 2nd. So going further to FC+ in
13-17 minute range won't be a problem. No, a full pound batch will not be
that short of time, but a HotTop can't do a full pound (or more for full
pound post roast) any time frame.
<Snip>
In your opinion. Some pro's believe 3 to 5 minutes fine for cooling times.
IMO most important getting it down to 200f range in reasonably fast time,
then if it takes a bit of time no biggy.
 
<Snip>
True enough. The biggest plus I see with the new HotTop design is not just
the manual roast control, but then being able to save the just run roast
profile for future replication. (Can save up to 3) And be fair, their $220
upgrade cost is FAR LESS than your CCR system cost! Though of course your
CCR system is far more advanced and far more capable in every respect. And
I'm not saying your CCR system is over priced for what it can do, far from
it. Compared to the control systems sold by Ambex, Diedrich etc. it's
relatively inexpensive!
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/

5) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
<Snip>
full pounds are 18-20 minutes, basically and have some different 
roast flavor characteristics than 1/2 lbs. in the behmor
<Snip>
cooling is still one of the hottops best features.
<Snip>
the new hottop "B" is a great improvement over the current analog and 
digital. The interface is a lot less complex (and smaller) than the 
new P model (programmable) but it is less money. I think there are 
still reasons to chose Hottop over Genecafe and Behmor, even with the 
back wall position of the sensor and such. In fact, consistency and 
roast quality are more important than whether or not you are 
measuring the bean temp. Have you ever used a Probat? It's something 
90% of commercial coffee roasters deal with - you are usually not 
measuring bean temp anyway.
BTW: Behmor is $399 as far as I know. We roasted a bunch of batches 
today on the programmable Genecafe (coming), the Behmor production 
model, and the new Hottop. It's an odd comparison because it just 
feels like you are doing something different with the Behmor. But I 
am getting comparable cup results, especially at 1/2 Lb. batch size. 
I think it will do well, but I can't see it cornering the market on 
home drum roasters. The new Hottop has interesting features other 
than the new feature of saving 3 programs, like heat and fan 
adjustment on the fly. But i have to go back to my roast now !!!
Tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com

6) From: miKe mcKoffee
Tom,
I'm very curious to know if the 1/2# Behmor batches you compared with the
Gene & HotTop and found comparable you used full closed door cooling or
opened the door at start of cooling or removed drum at start of cooling and
manually cooled. (I suspect open door at start of cooling cycle but
obviously could be wrong.) I do fully agree the HotTop seems to have the
best designed roast cooling of any off the shelf home roaster, kick the
beans out of the hot roasting environment and cool externally. But if the
cups are comparable maybe not as critical as previously supposed once a
roaster's full roast process evaluated in the cup, which I have no basis to
say one way or ther other at this point. FWIW there's a good chance I'll
also be able to directly compare Behmor to HotTop as well as profiled Rosto
batches myself but not Gene. (Greg's CCR HotTop)
Also no question I'd say the new HotTop's ability to change applied heat and
fan speed on the fly is not just interesting, it's a huge step in a good
direction. (For those who want to tweak a roaster/profile to attempt to get
the most out of a given bean, not just turn it brown:-) The ability to save
a roast you just ran is the icing on the cake. Now if the Programable HotTop
and New HotTop features where merged so you could initially program, edit
saved programs, manually adjust on the fly and save the just ran roast
they'd be getting really serious...
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

7) From: Jeffrey Pawlan
Mike,  I was not suggesting that people buy the CCR system I designed just to
do manual roasts. I started out by simply making a manual interface with
switches! Very cheap and easy to do.  Then I did a computer controlled interface
that controlled the roast completely manually from the computer screen. The
added advantange was that realtime temperature logging was also on the screen
and I was using a real thermocouple in the beans pushed in through the bean
chute. That is what is in the old photos of the gathering in Berkeley that Tom
has up on this website. There was no automatic control at that time.
Tom:  You asked whether I had roasted on a Probat?  I OWN ONE AND IT DOES HAVE
REAL THERMOCOUPLES MEASURING THE BEAN AND AIR TEMPERATURE NOW!  Look athttp://www.pawlan.com/commercialroaster.htmlthen scroll down to the bottom photos

8) From: Tara Kollas
That's interesting - I might be interested in the upgrade.  Not sure, though
- I've been very happy with my hottop over the last two years.
On 7/23/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Les
It looks like there is a lot of room to play with this machine.  I am
getting more and more impressed with the way Hottop continues to listen to
the consumer.
Les
On 7/24/07, Tara Kollas  wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Les
Just my 2 cents worth!  I really don't understand why everyone gets so hung
up on measuring bean temperature!  Like there is something magic in knowing
the bean temperature!  I think having a good profile is way more important.
I rarely roast by temperature anymore.  I roast by profile and time.  I
don't even have a temperature probe in my RK setup anymore.  I know the
power settings on my burners.  I know when 1st crack is suppose to happen
(time) on my profiles.  I adjust my profiles by time.  If first crack is
early, I lower my heat.  If it is late, I will raise the heat.  Last night I
wanted a nice city roast on a Guatemala bean from last year.  I pre-warmed
my RK for 5 minutes.  I loaded her up and let the roast go the 2.5 minutes
at the 1st setting.  I then moved the gas valve up to the second setting for
1.5 minutes.  I then moved to the 3rd setting where 1st crack began where I
wanted it to between 8min 30 sec and 9 min 30 sec.  I moved the gas valve to
the 4th setting and pulled the roast at 14:30.  Color was just as expected,
watched and smelled for the puff of smoke that always occurs just before
second crack.  Neither one happened because I was spot on on the roast,
proved by post cooling bean munch cupping results.  Roast is resting nicely
in air-tight Tupperware for tomorrows first cups.  So why the long rant?
I'll be blunt.  I think too often we get to know our temperature gauge
instead of our roaster!  Do you know the 5 major stages of a roast?  What
are the characteristics of each stage?  How can you detect these stages
without seeing the beans?  Us RK roasters can't see what is going on in
there!  Oh lest I forget.  Have fun roasting.  To me it is a lot of fun!
Les
On 7/23/07, Jeffrey Pawlan  wrote:
<Snip>

11) From:
Les, I agree with your comments. HBow can you really measure the internal temp of all the beans? Do ya put little sensors on each bean!!
ginny
---- Les  wrote: 
<Snip>

12) From: Lisa Carton
thanks for yet another great post Les!  A terrific reminder of what is real=
ly important in the roast! Funny, too becasue i was just perusing your prof=
iles posted on RK's site and it was refreshing there too to NOT see temps/t=
imes, etc, but more of a profile based on what's happening IN THE ROASTER! =
 I'd love to hear even MORE description from you on the stages and characte=
ristics from your perspective.....and others' too!!!!!!
Thanks!
 
~~~=
~> Come see my Coffee Blog at http://lisabeeen.blogspot.com   
=
----- Original Message ----
From: Les 
To: ho=
meroast
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:17:09 AM
=
Subject: Re: +New "mid-range"Hottop model available
Just my 2 cents=
 worth!  I really don't understand why everyone gets so hung up on measurin=
g bean temperature!  Like there is something magic in knowing the bean temp=
erature!  I think having a good profile is way more important.  I rarely ro=
ast by temperature anymore.  I roast by profile and time.  I don't even hav=
e a temperature probe in my RK setup anymore.  I know the power settings on=
 my burners.  I know when 1st crack is suppose to happen (time) on my profi=
les.  I adjust my profiles by time.  If first crack is early, I lower my he=
at.  If it is late, I will raise the heat.  Last night I wanted a nice city=
 roast on a Guatemala bean from last year.  I pre-warmed my RK for 5 minute=
s.  I loaded her up and let the roast go the 2.5 minutes at the 1st setting=
.  I then moved the gas valve up to the second setting for 1.5 minutes.  I =
then moved to the 3rd setting where 1st crack began where I wanted it to be=
tween 8min 30 sec and 9 min 30 sec.  I moved the gas
 valve to the 4th setting and pulled the roast at 14:30.  Color was just as=
 expected, watched and smelled for the puff of smoke that always occurs jus=
t before second crack.  Neither one happened because I was spot on on the r=
oast, proved by post cooling bean munch cupping results.  Roast is resting =
nicely in air-tight Tupperware for tomorrows first cups.  So why the long r=
ant?  I'll be blunt.  I think too often we get to know our temperature gaug=
e instead of our roaster!  Do you know the 5 major stages of a roast?  What=
 are the characteristics of each stage?  How can you detect these stages wi=
thout seeing the beans?  Us RK roasters can't see what is going on in there=
!  Oh lest I forget.  Have fun roasting.  To me it is a lot of fun! 
 
=
Les
 
On 7/23/07, Jeffrey Pawlan  wrote: 
=
Mike,  I was not suggesting that people buy the CCR system I designed ju=
st to
do manual roasts. I started out by simply making a manual interface=
 with 
switches! Very cheap and easy to do.  Then I did a computer contro=
lled interface
that controlled the roast completely manually from the com=
puter screen. The
added advantange was that realtime temperature logging =
was also on the screen 
and I was using a real thermocouple in the beans =
pushed in through the bean
chute. That is what is in the old photos of th=
e gathering in Berkeley that Tom
has up on this website. There was no aut=
omatic control at that time. 
Tom:  You asked whether I had roasted on=
 a Probat?  I OWN ONE AND IT DOES HAVE
REAL THERMOCOUPLES MEASURING THE B=
EAN AND AIR TEMPERATURE NOW!  Look athttp://www.pawlan.com/commercialroa=ster.html 
then scroll down to the bottom photos=
homeroast mailing listhttp://lis=ts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast 
To change your personal li=
st settings (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go tohttp://sweetmar=ias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings=
Bo=
ardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for=
 today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?ga=mekey=monopolyherenow  

13) From:
Lisa,
Les is the best...
Eddie Dove too.
g
---- Lisa Carton  wrote: 
<Snip>
Thanks!
 
~~~~> Come see my Coffee Blog at http://lisabeeen.blogspot.com   
----- Original Message ----
From: Les 
To: homeroast
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:17:09 AM
Subject: Re: +New "mid-range"Hottop model available
Just my 2 cents worth!  I really don't understand why everyone gets so hung up on measuring bean temperature!  Like there is something magic in knowing the bean temperature!  I think having a good profile is way more important.  I rarely roast by temperature anymore.  I roast by profile and time.  I don't even have a temperature probe in my RK setup anymore.  I know the power settings on my burners.  I know when 1st crack is suppose to happen (time) on my profiles.  I adjust my profiles by time.  If first crack is early, I lower my heat.  If it is late, I will raise the heat.  Last night I wanted a nice city roast on a Guatemala bean from last year.  I pre-warmed my RK for 5 minutes.  I loaded her up and let the roast go the 2.5 minutes at the 1st setting.  I then moved the gas valve up to the second setting for 1.5 minutes.  I then moved to the 3rd setting where 1st crack began where I wanted it to between 8min 30 sec and 9 min 30 sec.  I moved the gas
<Snip>
 
Les
On 7/23/07, Jeffrey Pawlan  wrote: 
Mike,  I was not suggesting that people buy the CCR system I designed just to
do manual roasts. I started out by simply making a manual interface with 
switches! Very cheap and easy to do.  Then I did a computer controlled interface
that controlled the roast completely manually from the computer screen. The
added advantange was that realtime temperature logging was also on the screen 
and I was using a real thermocouple in the beans pushed in through the bean
chute. That is what is in the old photos of the gathering in Berkeley that Tom
has up on this website. There was no automatic control at that time. 
Tom:  You asked whether I had roasted on a Probat?  I OWN ONE AND IT DOES HAVE
REAL THERMOCOUPLES MEASURING THE BEAN AND AIR TEMPERATURE NOW!  Look athttp://www.pawlan.com/commercialroaster.html
then scroll down to the bottom photos

14) From: Justin Nevins
Les,
I would agree, generally...except for folks who roast outdoors (I imagine
that is about 100% of people who roast using the RK) in areas where the
temperature varies wildly throughout the year. Living in Missouri, we have
days during the winter that get down to below 0F, and days in the summer
that get over 100F. I don't use a drum roaster (yet), but I imagine it could
be pretty frustrating trying to get consistent results in a BBQ drum roaster
without having a thermometer in places like Missouri. Solely using settings
on a grill could produce crazy different temperatures during different parts
of the year. I could be wrong though. Does anyone have experience roasting
in such a varied climate?
Justin Nevins
On 7/24/07, Les  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Les
Justin,
I have roasted from 20 degrees to 100 degrees.  The nice thing about the RK
is if you prewarm and keep it out of the wind, it is stable!  I roast
outside.  When it is 100, I do have to tweak down a bit, and at 20 I have to
tweak up a bit, but not much and it isn't that radical.  Now throw a gusty
wind into the mix and there is trouble in paradise!  I do have a wind shield
if needed.
Les
On 7/24/07, Justin Nevins  wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: Cameron Forde
I wonder what it would take for Hottop to come out with a 1 lb
roaster?  I realize that it is a lot to ask from an electric home
appliance.  I gather that the Behmor manages this by using lamps
instead of heating elements (which requires a drum that won't block
too much light).  Perhaps the two companies could come to some
arrangement?  The marriage of the HT cooling with a 1 lb capacity
would keep me happy for some time.  I'm quite happy with my HT in
general, but would really like to move up to a 1 lb roaster.  I know
the logical step would be the RK, but I'd prefer an indoor appliance.
The new control panel looks like a nice addition to the HT family.
Hope there is more to come.
Cameron
On 7/24/07, Les  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
ceforde

17) From: Justin Nevins
Les,
Its good to know that you don't need a great amount of adjustment for
outdoor temperature with an RK setup. Since I don't roast outdoors (I use a
modded WBP1 indoors with a nice little plexiglass ventilation setup), I
haven't had to deal with it much. I quit roasting outdoors when in winter my
WBP2 made baked beans in a 24 minute City roast, but I hope to get an RK
Drum and explore the world of possibilities one of these days.
Justin Nevins
On 7/24/07, Les  wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: miKe mcKoffee
A 1# electric drum roaster with decent profile control in times similar to
current ~1/2# batches would likely take abandoning the current design model
limiting to 120v/15a and at the minimum go to 120v/20a. Better yet going to
220v, but that's not realistic for a home market target. But just going to
120v/20a requirement would likely limit the market as evidence by the number
of people who balk at 20a prosumer espresso machines. Could design it with
15a or 20a selectable modes (one of muliple heaters cut out) with
corresponding slower longer roasts times full batch capacity @15a.
What it will probably take is market pressure demanding larger batch
capacity as evidenced by sales, the coming Behmor 1600 may or may not
provide just such pressure, as well as price point pressures.
Yeah, take a Behmor and new HotTop shake liberally and merge 'em. Full
manual on the fly control of heat and air flow with ability to save run
roast profile based on temps for later replication, automatic external
cooling, bonus points for including multiple base profiles, more bonus
points for including roast character descriptions for each profile, even
more bonus points for editable base and saved profiles with a dozen or more
memory locations (and ability to give saved profile a "name" of your
choosing). 
Or get really extreme and happy if you got da bucks and buy a Probatino and
CCR control for it from Jeffrey. Of course now you're in the 1kg realm of a
very serious high end commercial sample roaster modified for serious total
control. 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

19) From: John Moody
Propane or butane is an practical solution to the wattage issue.  A
significant problem is the possibility of fire at that roast size no matter
how you heat it.
John

20) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Okay, my .02 cents too ...I like your thoughts on this, Les, but 
seeing the roast, measuring temp, sampling ... these ARE good 
qualities You can live without them, but that doesnt make them 
undesirable. Not having them means that you rely on experience using 
other inputs - sound, smell, time etc., and that works too. But I 
think good, consistent temperature measurement is the same. If that 
measurement truly indicates bean temperature is secondary to the fact 
that it indicates what is going on with the roast process. If it 
measures the bean temp with a certain influence of the air 
temperature in the drum ... fine. With experience and cupping, you 
can learn to interpret those readings to steer the roast the way you 
want to. I know thats what you are saying, but hey, wouldn't you like 
to have good temp readings, and sample from a drum, and 
see/hear/smell the roast, and .... you get the point. I think more is 
better, in this case. I have 2 antique home roasters than allow 
direct sampling from the drum - wouldn't it be a huge feature if a 
home drum roaster would allow for that?
Now, in terms of roast time, at least on my probat, i don't get too 
hung up about a 14 min roast vs 15 vs 16. The profile is more 
important, as les writes, rather than hitting exact preconceived time 
marks. -Tom
Just my 2 cents worth!  I really don't understand why everyone gets 
so hung up on measuring bean temperature!  Like there is something 
magic in knowing the bean temperature!  I think having a good profile 
is way more important.  I rarely roast by temperature anymore.  I 
roast by profile and time.  I don't even have a temperature probe in 
my RK setup anymore.  I know the power settings on my burners.  I 
know when 1st crack is suppose to happen (time) on my profiles.  I 
adjust my profiles by time.  If first crack is early, I lower my 
heat.  If it is late, I will raise the heat.  Last night I wanted a 
nice city roast on a Guatemala bean from last year.  I pre-warmed my 
RK for 5 minutes.  I loaded her up and let the roast go the 2.5 
minutes at the 1st setting.  I then moved the gas valve up to the 
second setting for 1.5 minutes.  I then moved to the 3rd setting 
where 1st crack began where I wanted it to between 8min 30 sec and 9 
min 30 sec.  I moved the gas valve to the 4th setting and pulled the 
roast at 14:30.  Color was just as expected, watched and smelled for 
the puff of smoke that always occurs just before second crack. 
Neither one happened because I was spot on on the roast, proved by 
post cooling bean munch cupping results.  Roast is resting nicely in 
air-tight Tupperware for tomorrows first cups.  So why the long rant? 
I'll be blunt.  I think too often we get to know our temperature 
gauge instead of our roaster!  Do you know the 5 major stages of a 
roast?  What are the characteristics of each stage?  How can you 
detect these stages without seeing the beans?  Us RK roasters can't 
see what is going on in there!  Oh lest I forget.  Have fun roasting. 
To me it is a lot of fun!
Les
On 7/23/07, Jeffrey Pawlan 
<jpawlan> wrote:
Mike,  I was not suggesting that people buy the CCR system I designed just to
do manual roasts. I started out by simply making a manual interface with
switches! Very cheap and easy to do.  Then I did a computer 
controlled interface
that controlled the roast completely manually from the computer screen. The
added advantange was that realtime temperature logging was also on the screen
and I was using a real thermocouple in the beans pushed in through the bean
chute. That is what is in the old photos of the gathering in Berkeley that Tom
has up on this website. There was no automatic control at that time.
Tom:  You asked whether I had roasted on a Probat?  I OWN ONE AND IT DOES HAVE
REAL THERMOCOUPLES MEASURING THE BEAN AND AIR TEMPERATURE NOW!  Look athttp://www.pawlan.com/commercialroaster.htmlthen scroll down to the bottom photos

21) From: Les
Tom,
Thanks for pulling me back into the middle.  I would love to have a way to
pull beans as they roast to see what is going on.  I used a temperature
probe to setup my profiles, so I am not saying that it isn't a valuable
tool.  I would love a nice bright light and a quartz window to see my beans
too!  However, when my roasts were going sideways on my RK drum a few months
ago, the temp probe couldn't solve the problem.  However the human "bean"
between my ears when put to work a bit and figured out that even though my
temps were right the roasts were off was due to burners that need a good
cleaning.  Thinking about what is going on is very important.  Being
frustrated with what you don't have rather than being thankful for what you
do have takes away the fun.   I would rather have the power of the RK than
go back to 1200-1400 watts.  That said, there are times when I still pull
out the Poppery.
Les
On 7/24/07, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee 
wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I imagine that is about 100% of people who roast using the RK--- I'm in
my garage with the door open is that inside or outside?
Dennis
 
V/R, 
FC1(SW/AW) Dennis W. True 
"Life Liberty and the pursuit of all who threaten it..." 
	Les,
	
	I would agree, generally...except for folks who roast outdoors
(I imagine that is about 100% of people who roast using the RK) in areas
where the temperature varies wildly throughout the year. Living in
Missouri, we have days during the winter that get down to below 0F, and
days in the summer that get over 100F. I don't use a drum roaster (yet),
but I imagine it could be pretty frustrating trying to get consistent
results in a BBQ drum roaster without having a thermometer in places
like Missouri. Solely using settings on a grill could produce crazy
different temperatures during different parts of the year. I could be
wrong though. Does anyone have experience roasting in such a varied
climate? 
	
	Justin Nevins
	
	
	On 7/24/07, Les  wrote: 
		Just my 2 cents worth!  I really don't understand why
everyone gets so hung up on measuring bean temperature!  Like there is
something magic in knowing the bean temperature!  I think having a good
profile is way more important.  I rarely roast by temperature anymore.
I roast by profile and time.  I don't even have a temperature probe in
my RK setup anymore.  I know the power settings on my burners.  I know
when 1st crack is suppose to happen (time) on my profiles.  I adjust my
profiles by time.  If first crack is early, I lower my heat.  If it is
late, I will raise the heat.  Last night I wanted a nice city roast on a
Guatemala bean from last year.  I pre-warmed my RK for 5 minutes.  I
loaded her up and let the roast go the 2.5 minutes at the 1st setting.
I then moved the gas valve up to the second setting for 1.5 minutes.  I
then moved to the 3rd setting where 1st crack began where I wanted it to
between 8min 30 sec and 9 min 30 sec.  I moved the gas valve to the 4th
setting and pulled the roast at 14:30.  Color was just as expected,
watched and smelled for the puff of smoke that always occurs just before
second crack.  Neither one happened because I was spot on on the roast,
proved by post cooling bean munch cupping results.  Roast is resting
nicely in air-tight Tupperware for tomorrows first cups.  So why the
long rant?  I'll be blunt.  I think too often we get to know our
temperature gauge instead of our roaster!  Do you know the 5 major
stages of a roast?  What are the characteristics of each stage?  How can
you detect these stages without seeing the beans?  Us RK roasters can't
see what is going on in there!  Oh lest I forget.  Have fun roasting.
To me it is a lot of fun! 
		
		 
		Les
		
		 
		
		On 7/23/07, Jeffrey Pawlan  wrote: 
			Mike,  I was not suggesting that people buy the
CCR system I designed just to
			do manual roasts. I started out by simply making
a manual interface with 
			switches! Very cheap and easy to do.  Then I did
a computer controlled interface
			that controlled the roast completely manually
from the computer screen. The
			added advantange was that realtime temperature
logging was also on the screen 
			and I was using a real thermocouple in the beans
pushed in through the bean
			chute. That is what is in the old photos of the
gathering in Berkeley that Tom
			has up on this website. There was no automatic
control at that time. 
			
			Tom:  You asked whether I had roasted on a
Probat?  I OWN ONE AND IT DOES HAVE
			REAL THERMOCOUPLES MEASURING THE BEAN AND AIR
TEMPERATURE NOW!  Look at
		http://www.pawlan.com/commercialroaster.html
			
			then scroll down to the bottom photos

23) From: Justin Nevins
I guess it depends on how you look at it....I would respond further, but I
need another cup of coffee to wake my brain...that will have to wait till
after I get home.
Justin Nevins
On 7/24/07, True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)  wrote:
<Snip>

24) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Both. Inside not affected by wind, outside affected by ambient.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of True, Dennis W.
FC1 (CVN69)
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:53 PM
I imagine that is about 100% of people who roast using the RK--- I'm in my
garage with the door open is that inside or outside?
Dennis
 
V/R, 
FC1(SW/AW) Dennis W. True 
"Life Liberty and the pursuit of all who threaten it..." 

25) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
I sorta feel partially responcable for the whole thing as I asked the
questions about PID's in the beans. (Sorry) 
After only a few roasts in the RK Drum I am trying to get a better feel
for what is going on and I have an unquenchable thirst for the most
information I can get my hands on.  I only want to shorten the learning
curve as much as possible (impatience is my best virtue) 
My .02 worth
V/R,
FC1(SW/AW) Dennis W. True
"Life Liberty and the pursuit of all who threaten it..."
---- Lisa Carton  wrote: 
<Snip>
<Snip>
your profiles posted on RK's site and it was refreshing there too to NOT
see temps/times, etc, but more of a profile based on what's happening IN
THE ROASTER!  I'd love to hear even MORE description from you on the
stages and characteristics from your perspective.....and others'
too!!!!!!
Thanks!
 
~~~~> Come see my Coffee Blog at http://lisabeeen.blogspot.com   
----- Original Message ----
From: Les 
To: homeroast
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:17:09 AM
Subject: Re: +New "mid-range"Hottop model available
Just my 2 cents worth!  I really don't understand why everyone gets so
hung up on measuring bean temperature!  Like there is something magic in
knowing the bean temperature!  I think having a good profile is way more
important.  I rarely roast by temperature anymore.  I roast by profile
and time.  I don't even have a temperature probe in my RK setup anymore.
I know the power settings on my burners.  I know when 1st crack is
suppose to happen (time) on my profiles.  I adjust my profiles by time.
If first crack is early, I lower my heat.  If it is late, I will raise
the heat.  Last night I wanted a nice city roast on a Guatemala bean
from last year.  I pre-warmed my RK for 5 minutes.  I loaded her up and
let the roast go the 2.5 minutes at the 1st setting.  I then moved the
gas valve up to the second setting for 1.5 minutes.  I then moved to the
3rd setting where 1st crack began where I wanted it to between 8min 30
sec and 9 min 30 sec.  I moved the gas
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 
Les
 
On 7/23/07, Jeffrey Pawlan  wrote: 
Mike,  I was not suggesting that people buy the CCR system I designed
just to do manual roasts. I started out by simply making a manual
interface with 
switches! Very cheap and easy to do.  Then I did a computer controlled
interface that controlled the roast completely manually from the
computer screen. The added advantange was that realtime temperature
logging was also on the screen 
and I was using a real thermocouple in the beans pushed in through the
bean chute. That is what is in the old photos of the gathering in
Berkeley that Tom has up on this website. There was no automatic control
at that time. 
Tom:  You asked whether I had roasted on a Probat?  I OWN ONE AND IT
DOES HAVE REAL THERMOCOUPLES MEASURING THE BEAN AND AIR TEMPERATURE NOW!
Look athttp://www.pawlan.com/commercialroaster.html
then scroll down to the bottom photos

26) From: DJ Garcia
Mike, I was going by the approach "reach the target temp and stay =
there",
which would be impossible unless this aspect was optional. Maybe the =
short
description doesn't do the feature justice. But then again, this is me, =
not
a nitty-gritty roaster :-).

27) From: miKe mcKoffee
Ah, as in duh, the hold at finish temp roasting method. What you'd probably
have to/be able to do is manually adjust the final stages heater power so it
very gradually creeps up to the finish temp. It does appear to have the
ability to do that!
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

28) From: DJ Garcia
Les,
I'm kind of with you. I can understand you can get better control with
precise bean temp measurement, but as long as you learn the behavior of =
your
system and it is reasonably consistent, I have no problem with "faux"
temperature readings that do indicate in some fairly predictable way how
things are going.
Where I believe actual bean temp helps is in deriving profiles for =
different
size loads. This where I believe using outside air temps will tend to =
throw
you off when you change the load size.
DJ

29) From: raymanowen
The solution to the wattage issue is: Quit Wasting It!
The massive heat required by any roasting setup is needed mainly to make up
for heat lost overboard to he environment by poor design or no design. That
makes it look like an abandoned house in a ghost town. Ever see one you'd
like to move in and occupy during a blizzard? Not so much? Roasters are no
better at "keeping heat in the house."
Put a big enough furnace and air conditioner in the abandoned house, and you
could make it habitable year round.
I've always thought a "Kilogram for a Kilowatt" roaster is well within the
realm of feasibility. Small roasters are notorious for conserving heat- They
Don't.
All the modders that scale up 8oz roasters to 24oz roasters by feeding more
power to the small roaster miss the point. When you put more beans in the
same physical enclosure, it's still as inefficient as it was. Add more
power, waste more power.
Say the toy roaster uses 20% of the heat for making the beans hot- it only
takes heat to raise their temperature, no additional heat is needed to
maintain the beans' temperature. If just half of the heat lost overboard
were retained, the additional heat for the beans would be easily obtained
for no additional energy expense.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
But for a larger bilge pump, Titanic wouldn't have been lost. If it just
hadn't leaked...
On 7/24/07, John Moody  wrote:
<Snip>

30) From: DJ Garcia
Yeah, sure, but you gotta keep fidgeting with the darned thing!!! How's =
a
guy supposed to relax??!! :-)

31) From: miKe mcKoffee
If you liked the roast progression result, you'd SAVE the just run manually
adjusted on the fly roast profile so next time you could relax and watch!
That is part of what I see as the potential beauty of the new HotTop design.
:-) 
miKe
<Snip>
<Snip>

32) From: raymanowen
"...cooling time should be 2 minutes or less."
I got your 2 minute cooler.
If I wanted to hustle a little, I could decide to end a roast, and two
minutes later take a sip of a sample cup.
That is: Sample a cup, NOT Cup a sample! We don't hock loogies with coffee
we just drank in this trailer. Maybe they do, a couple of spaces over- not
here.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
On 7/23/07, Jeffrey Pawlan  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

33) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Couple points Ray. Yes eliminating air flow in a drum could increase thermal
efficiency. However most professional roaster's agree a better cup results
with air flow. OTOH methods of insulation could increase heat retention
efficiency. Also recirculation depending on how it affects the cup.
 
As far as modders scaling up 8oz to 24oz with greater bean mass in same size
enclosure being just as ineffecient as before, that flat out taint the case.
Increased bean mass itself restricts air-flow which with no additional heat
power applied will increase the roast heat. Problem with over loading beans
is retaining too much heat!
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
raymanowen
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:28 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +New "mid-range"Hottop model available
The solution to the wattage issue is: Quit Wasting It!
The massive heat required by any roasting setup is needed mainly to make up
for heat lost overboard to he environment by poor design or no design. That
makes it look like an abandoned house in a ghost town. Ever see one you'd
like to move in and occupy during a blizzard? Not so much? Roasters are no
better at "keeping heat in the house." 
Put a big enough furnace and air conditioner in the abandoned house, and you
could make it habitable year round.
I've always thought a "Kilogram for a Kilowatt" roaster is well within the
realm of feasibility. Small roasters are notorious for conserving heat- They
Don't. 
All the modders that scale up 8oz roasters to 24oz roasters by feeding more
power to the small roaster miss the point. When you put more beans in the
same physical enclosure, it's still as inefficient as it was. Add more
power, waste more power. 
Say the toy roaster uses 20% of the heat for making the beans hot- it only
takes heat to raise their temperature, no additional heat is needed to
maintain the beans' temperature. If just half of the heat lost overboard
were retained, the additional heat for the beans would be easily obtained
for no additional energy expense. 
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
But for a larger bilge pump, Titanic wouldn't have been lost. If it just
hadn't leaked...

34) From: Alchemist John
Mike,
Can you point me to any references that air flow vs no air flow cups 
better?   Farmroast over on HB (an Ed here?) is designing a 1 kg 
roaster for no air flow with the intent of "no oxygen, no smoke" 
thought (and it seems the idea is working).  I was giving it some 
thought, but couldn't really come up with data to support that style 
of roasting either way from a cup perspective.
At 21:40 7/24/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

35) From: Tom Ulmer
My opinion is that the smoke produced by the roast should not be
re-introduced to the roasting chamber.
I roast in a solid stainless steel drum with an open end over a propane
flame and have found that too much smoke or improper ventilation of the
roaster will negatively impact the cup - for my tastes. The hood (lid) of
the propane grill I use for heating is well vented. Additionally I direct
air flow across the top of the roasting unit with a small table-top fan
furthering efforts to keep smoke from collecting in the roasting chamber.  
Certainly this method is not an efficient use of energy but I appreciate the
results...

36) From: Les
Tom,
I agree.  I am thinking about putting a vent in the top of my RK setup.  My
current top isn't all that "air tight."
On 7/25/07, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
<Snip>

37) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
First apologies, I should have said "it seems to me" most professional
roasters or similar. Primarily based my statement on talking with various
roasters both online and in person the past 6+ years. Other than the obvious
references by Michael Sivetz discussing fluid bed versus drum being a
cleaner cup, for instance
 
"The Sivetz process only passes the hot air once through the spouting bean
bed.
The significance of this procedure is that any and all loose chaff is
immediately swept away from the beans into the cyclone collector. The chaff
is unsinged. Whereas, in a drum roaster most of the chaff rides on the
tumbling beans and burns and smokes. This smoke, fumigates all other beans,
giving them a harsh bitey taste."
Actual documented references discussing drum roaster air flow pros and cons
hard to find. Ambex seems to allude to air flow benefits discussing
recommended batch size:
"Ambex roasters will roast coffee batches from 100% maximum capacity down to
10% minimum capacity. For best results with quality and control of your
roaster, we recommend roasting at a maximum of 80% capacity to avoid cutting
back airflow to the drum."
However I'd definitely say it's somewhat subjective whether a smokier roast
environment resulting in a smokier cup is better or worse or more true to
the bean.
It's also quite possible a "no oxygen no smoke" roast environment would be
very different in the cup than any current roast method.
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Alchemist John
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 4:53 AM
Mike,
Can you point me to any references that air flow vs no air flow cups better?
Farmroast over on HB (an Ed here?) is designing a 1 kg roaster for no air
flow with the intent of "no oxygen, no smoke" thought (and it seems the idea
is working).  I was giving it some thought, but couldn't really come up with
data to support that style of roasting either way from a cup perspective.
At 21:40 7/24/2007, you wrote:
Couple points Ray. Yes eliminating air flow in a drum could increase thermal
efficiency. However most professional roaster's agree a better cup results
with air flow. OTOH methods of insulation could increase heat retention
efficiency. Also recirculation depending on how it affects the cup.
 
As far as modders scaling up 8oz to 24oz with greater bean mass in same size
enclosure being just as ineffecient as before, that flat out taint the case.
Increased bean mass itself restricts air-flow which with no additional heat
power applied will increase the roast heat. Problem with over loading beans
is retaining too much heat!
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee

38) From: Leo Zick
thats why we live in ame-dee-ca! choices..
some prefer the cleaner more bright taste of an air fluid bed, some prefer
drum only.  personally, a combo of the 2 is best, just as in cooking, where
searing and sauteeing can yield better results than one or the other in some
cases.
<Snip>

39) From: raymanowen
I really don't want to be argumentative so as to stifle learning on my
part, but I realize I'm not endowed with excessive Tact. Be that as it
may or not- or not be, start the design from the area (volume) where
you want heat concentrated- the beans. Happily, they'll be in an RK
Drum
When heat leaves the area where you want it to stay, that's poor
insulation and/or poor design. The heat source must supply the heat
lost if you want to maintain the temperature, and the stray heat could
cause unanticipated roast effects, physical damage to the roaster or
domicile, and personal injury. You Pay.
I'm thinking of an RK Drum in a well-insulated muffle with
recirculating air reheated in a heat exchanger. Temperature and smoke
can be regulated directly by fresh air exchange, the air bleed being
the only major heat loss method.
Whatever it's doing, no part will be hot to the touch. While I'll be
using gas flame heat for this setup, I still think the Kilogram for a
Kilowatt can be designed and built. If you're not heating the whole
countryside with heat lost from the roaster, NBD.
If it feels hot, you're losing heat. Almost like VFR and IFR when
flying- everybody wants  to roast while watching clocks and
thermometers- IFR- instead of watching the beans for smoke and
cracks-VFR.
Watch out the windshield instead of the dashboard.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 7/24/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
   From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of
raymanowen
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the
Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

40) From: Larry Johnson
How about using a heat exchanger to pre-heat the incoming air with the
outgoing air? You could catch some of those bought-and-paid-for calories,
and 180 them back to the beans.
On 7/25/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Larry J
The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.  -
Walter Bagehot

41) From: DJ Garcia
So there we have it, there's a market for all four Hottops! Gotta hand =
it to
them. Me, I'm loving my fully programmable.
Cheers!
DJ

42) From: DJ Garcia
My latest HT "guesswork" profile use has me loading late and have the =
fan
going on around first crack. Got a really nice cup from a 2-year old
Panamanians (please don't hit me! I'm catching up!)
DJ

43) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
agreeing with both of you - what you need with a 110v roast system is 
to avoid losing precious heat, but also a clean air flow. you don't 
want to smoke coffee. so its a balancing act, and heat exchangers are 
a great idea. cleaning air of effluent smoke with a converter is good 
too, but then you are losing precious heat that the coil/burners 
need. its a tricky balancing act, and it makes gas heat seem 
attractive because you can afford some loss in favor of good air 
circulation. you can have both too, consider the commercial Loring 
Smartroast, or Millenium, or whatever they call it - primarily a 
convective roaster, but has zero emmisions, recovers all the heat it 
can, and they actually have rigged it in some roasteries so lost heat 
is directed to heating the building/offices!
tom
How about using a heat exchanger to pre-heat the incoming air with 
the outgoing air? You could catch some of those bought-and-paid-for 
calories, and 180 them back to the beans.
On 7/25/07, raymanowen 
<raymanowen> wrote:
I really don't want to be argumentative so as to stifle learning on my
part, but I realize I'm not endowed with excessive Tact. Be that as it
may or not- or not be, start the design from the area (volume) where
you want heat concentrated- the beans. Happily, they'll be in an RK
Drum
When heat leaves the area where you want it to stay, that's poor
insulation and/or poor design. The heat source must supply the heat
lost if you want to maintain the temperature, and the stray heat could
cause unanticipated roast effects, physical damage to the roaster or
domicile, and personal injury. You Pay.
I'm thinking of an RK Drum in a well-insulated muffle with
recirculating air reheated in a heat exchanger. Temperature and smoke
can be regulated directly by fresh air exchange, the air bleed being
the only major heat loss method.
Whatever it's doing, no part will be hot to the touch. While I'll be
using gas flame heat for this setup, I still think the Kilogram for a
Kilowatt can be designed and built. If you're not heating the whole
countryside with heat lost from the roaster, NBD.
If it feels hot, you're losing heat. Almost like VFR and IFR when
flying- everybody wants  to roast while watching clocks and
thermometers- IFR- instead of watching the beans for smoke and
cracks-VFR.
Watch out the windshield instead of the dashboard.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 7/24/07, miKe mcKoffee 
<mcKona > wrote:
<Snip>
   From: 
homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] 
On Behalf Of
raymanowen
<Snip>
--
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the
Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976


HomeRoast Digest