HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Pete's = Starbucks? (43 msgs / 1695 lines)
1) From: Barry Luterman
Absolutely. Was a Petes customer exclusively before getting into home 
roasting. My daughter still uses them 4 months a year when she can't get 
outside to roast. By the way am thinking of buying her the new roaster you 
have been trying out if it can be used indoors. Also Major Dickenson was my 
brew of choice

2) From: Sandy Andina
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My only recent (< 2 yrs.) experience with Peet's was to buy some  
exquisitely good loose jasmine and green teas; tired from grocery  
shopping,  I needed some immediate caffeination so I asked for a quad  
shot. They didn't bat an eyelash, and it was nicely done with good  
crema and balanced taste.  I had to sneak a peek over at their whole- 
bean menu: Jamaica Blue Mt. for *only* $29.95 1/4 lb.  No wonder I  
love SM's!!!!!
On Jul 25, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Barry Luterman wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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My only recent (< 2 yrs.) =
experience with Peet's was to buy some exquisitely good loose jasmine =
and green teas; tired from grocery shopping,  I needed some immediate =
caffeination so I asked for a quad shot. They didn't bat an eyelash, and =
it was nicely done with good crema and balanced taste.  I had to sneak =
a peek over at their whole-bean menu: Jamaica Blue Mt. for *only* $29.95 =
1/4 lb.  No wonder I love SM's!!!!!
On Jul 25, 2007, at =
12:12 PM, Barry Luterman wrote:
Absolutely. Was a Petes customer exclusively before = getting into home roasting. My daughter still uses them 4 months a year = when she can't get outside to roast. By the way am thinking of buying = her the new roaster you have been trying out if it can be used indoors. = Also Major Dickenson was my brew of choice----- = Original Message ----- From: "miKe mcKoffee" <mcKona>To: <homeroast= s.com>Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 = 6:55 AMSubject: +OT: Pete's = = Starbucks?Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-61-922219407--

3) From: Zara Haimo
I bought Peets' beans for years before I started roasting.  My favorite was 
always Major Dickason's Blend.  It's still my emergency backup if I'm out of 
fresh roast and can't roast for some reason.  I also have always gotten very 
well made lattes and good espresso shots in their stores - no burnt taste 
and real espresso machines with well trained staff instead of idiot push 
button models run by inexperienced kids.

4) From: Myron J
MiKe;
Very nice post..
Myron Joshua
Kibbutz Kfar Etzion
90912
Israel
+972-(0)2-9935 178

5) From: Sandy Andina
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Well, I am ashamed to admit that except for some Sumatra Mandheling I  
roasted for a coffee-loving but fiscally-challenged friend in  
Escanaba (no, not that unfortunate coffeehouse owner) before I left  
for the Hiawatha Folk Festival Thursday, I have been unable to devote  
sufficient time and attention to roasting of late. Got home late  
Monday night to find the only whole-bean coffee other than espresso  
left in my house was whatever was left of the tail end of my last  
Harrar Horse that I'd taken to brew in my motel room. So after  
feeding my family Americanos, I went to Metropolis to replenish my  
supply (my brood is currently partial to Spice Island Blend--various  
Indonesians at FC--and Harrar at City+, and I needed some more Red  
Line to tide me over while the Monkey I intend to roast today  
outgasses). They said I was entitled to a free cup of the coffee of  
the day, but that the water line to the drip brewers was down. Would  
I like an Americano instead? I replied they could just skip the extra  
water and pull me a double ristretto, which they did, and it was so  
heavenly I ruined my French manicure scooping up the crema clinging  
to the sides of the otherwise empty cup after I'd finished the shot.   
I tipped a buck. Gotta love it--quality AND service!
On Jul 25, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Zara Haimo wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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Well, I am ashamed to admit that =
except for some Sumatra Mandheling I roasted for a coffee-loving but =
fiscally-challenged friend in Escanaba (no, not that unfortunate =
coffeehouse owner) before I left for the Hiawatha Folk Festival =
Thursday, I have been unable to devote sufficient time and attention to =
roasting of late. Got home late Monday night to find the only whole-bean =
coffee other than espresso left in my house was whatever was left of the =
tail end of my last Harrar Horse that I'd taken to brew in my motel =
room. So after feeding my family Americanos, I went to Metropolis to =
replenish my supply (my brood is currently partial to Spice Island =
Blend--various Indonesians at FC--and Harrar at City+, and I needed some =
more Red Line to tide me over while the Monkey I intend to roast today =
outgasses). They said I was entitled to a free cup of the coffee of the =
day, but that the water line to the drip brewers was down. Would I like =
an Americano instead? I replied they could just skip the extra water and =
pull me a double ristretto, which they did, and it was so heavenly I =
ruined my French manicure scooping up the crema clinging to the sides of =
the otherwise empty cup after I'd finished the shot.  I tipped a buck. =
Gotta love it--quality AND service!
On Jul 25, 2007, at =
1:49 PM, Zara Haimo wrote:
I bought Peets' beans for years before I started = roasting.  My favorite = was always Major Dickason's Blend. = It's still my emergency backup if I'm out of fresh roast and = can't roast for some reason.  = I also have always gotten very well made lattes and good espresso = shots in their stores - no burnt taste and real espresso machines with = well trained staff instead of idiot push button models run by = inexperienced kids.homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-63-927775339--

6) From: Stephen Carey
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Tom, I am confused a bit about this.  Certainly the roasters, owners, 
management of Starbucks realize that their coffee isn't strong, but, 
instead, burnt - in my opinion and that of many I have read here.
But, they don't change it.  I am sure they are decent people, want to 
make a good product, and all of that.  So, why don't they?  When they 
started they introduced millions of people to a bad coffee IMHO.  I 
don't get why people keep going there for I hear how bad it is all of 
the time, but more, I just don't get why they don't change their 
roast.  What am I missing?  Am I too naive on this one?
I realize I have only made a handful of roasts, but truly, I would 
put all of them up against Starbucks in the range of flavors 
detected, the freshness, and so on.  They are not perfect, other than 
my last roast (of which I am so excited about, it turned out really 
good, I get that I can do it).
So, if some beginner gets that what they sell is over roasted or 
whatever, don't they?  Wouldn't they want to sell the best possible 
to their clients?  I feel lost on their reasoning, unless they 
figure: "this is easy, we charge more, people think it is good 
because it costs a lot, so don't monkey with it."
Stephen
At 08:30 PM 7/25/2007, you wrote:
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Tom, I am confused a bit about this.  Certainly the
roasters, owners, management of Starbucks realize that their coffee isn't
strong, but, instead, burnt - in my opinion and that of many I have read
here.
But, they don't change it.  I am sure they are decent people, want
to make a good product, and all of that.  So, why don't they? 
When they started they introduced millions of people to a bad coffee
IMHO.  I don't get why people keep going there for I hear how bad it
is all of the time, but more, I just don't get why they don't change
their roast.  What am I missing?  Am I too naive on this
one?
I realize I have only made a handful of roasts, but truly, I would put
all of them up against Starbucks in the range of flavors detected, the
freshness, and so on.  They are not perfect, other than my last
roast (of which I am so excited about, it turned out really good, I get
that I can do it).
So, if some beginner gets that what they sell is over roasted or
whatever, don't they?  Wouldn't they want to sell the best possible
to their clients?  I feel lost on their reasoning, unless they
figure: "this is easy, we charge more, people think it is good
because it costs a lot, so don't monkey with it."
Stephen
At 08:30 PM 7/25/2007, you wrote:
I kid myself into thinking I
have had decent Starbucks - but the fact is that if you are traveling,
many things taste good if they are simply "not bad". I am only
refering to starbucks lighter roasts of "single origin" coffees
such as brazil ipanema, colombia narino and their black apron coffees
(which frankly, are like lower grade, generic versions of things we all
know about too well, but they announce then with such flair that their
customers think they are so rare and special: ethiopia harar (ever heard
of it?) or el salvador pacamara.)
anyway, peets has a good quality program, known to buy decent coffee, and
watch their (over) roasting pretty carefully. I can smell the coffee
burning at their plant every time i go pick up some odds and ends at home
depot, about 5 minutes from here. i know their cuppers, skilled people,
perhaps making up for the fact that they have a deep sense of their own
importance. i met jim reynolds a couple times a while back and he was the
opposite, very nice guy, probably one of the true legends of coffee that
seems to have been passed over in all the forum chatter.
tom
--
                 
"Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
           Sweet
Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                     
http://www.sweetmarias.com              
Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
    Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA
94607 - USA
           
phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
homeroast mailing list
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7) From: Justin Marquez
Stephen - Whatever they are thinking and whatever their coffee may or may
not be,  they have been making a very successful business out of it for
years. Somewhere in that organization, I betcha there is a high-level
manager thinking "If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!" as he exercises his
stock option and banks his annual bonus check.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On 7/26/07, Stephen Carey  wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Lynne Biziewski
Justin, you said it better than I could. They are just making too much money
to change.
P.T. Barnum had it right, IMO.
(there's a sucker born every minute..)
L.
On 7/26/07, Justin Marquez  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Brett Mason
I was an avid Starbucks customer.  I never described the coffee as burnt.  I
learned that here - oh, and I do agree with the assessment.
Prior to homeroasting, I believed Starbucks was "dark roasted" - and I bet
the Starbucks people feel the same way.
They probably also believe theirs is a superior product.  Have you had
Folgers lately?
Brett
On 7/26/07, Stephen Carey  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

10) From: Angelo
While window-shopping some coffee items, I met a woman  who went on 
about how Starbuck's coffee gave her "bad breath". She called it 
"Starbuck Breath"...
Has anyone else experienced this? Or, as I suspected, she might have 
just been another NY crazy?
Angelo

11) From: Scott Petersen
<Snip>
The way I take it is that they do this on purpose. As has been discussed
here many times, the darker you roast a bean, the less you taste the bean
and the more you taste the roast. If you always burn a bean, it doesn't
matter the differences year to year and lot to lot. The taste of the
coffee is going to be the same, burnt.
For Starbucks this is good because it is consistent. It doesn't matter
where in the world or what time of year a customer purchases the coffee,
it will always taste the same.
Cheers
Scott Petersen

12) From: Sandy Andina
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Yes--makes my breath smell much worse than does any other coffee.
On Jul 26, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Angelo wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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Yes--makes my breath smell much =
worse than does any other coffee.
On Jul 26, 2007, at 12:22 =
PM, Angelo wrote:
While window-shopping some = coffee items, I met a woman  = who went on about how Starbuck's coffee gave her "bad breath". = She called it "Starbuck Breath"...Has anyone = else experienced this? Or, as I suspected, she might have just been = another NY crazy?Angelo homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-77-1005759521--

13) From:
Stephan:
<Snip>
why change a cash cow??
ginny
---- Brett Mason  wrote: 
<Snip>

14) From: Stephen Carey
Stephen Carey 
July 26, 2007  
   Scott, et al,
   
   I get it - why mess with something bringing in money at a nice rate.
   I doubt I would.  And, Scott, I understand what you said about
   consistency.  Now, for me, it has always tasted burned, long before I
   knew one thing about roasting coffee.  I never felt it was dark, but
   also, I have had the experience of living most of my life overseas,
   and my adult life in various countries, plus a home in CR.  So, to
   the person who likes it, it is not really burnt, just strong, I
   guess.  To me, I have been lucky enough to have experienced other
   tastes, at least enough to know what I like and don't and a sense as
   to why.
   
   And, if they like it, that is there business, not mine.
   
   What I do like is that in a town like DC there are options, though
   not as many as we may like, they do exist.
   
   Thank you one and all for your thoughts on this.  It is truly
   appreciated.
   
   Stephen Mark Carey
   
   (703) 914-9593 Tel
   
  http://www.atriptoparadise.comStephen Carey
7413 Inzer Street
North Springfield, VA 22181
 http://www.atriptoparadise.com)------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email that means Business, Every email, Every day! - LetterClick BrandMail(=
TM) found only at www.letterclick.net
At 01:31 PM 7/26/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
ngs

15) From: Stephen Carey
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Scott, et al,
I get it - why mess with something bringing in money at a nice 
rate.  I doubt I would.  And, Scott, I understand what you said about 
consistency.  Now, for me, it has always tasted burned, long before I 
knew one thing about roasting coffee.  I never felt it was dark, but 
also, I have had the experience of living most of my life overseas, 
and my adult life in various countries, plus a home in CR.  So, to 
the person who likes it, it is not really burnt, just strong, I 
guess.  To me, I have been lucky enough to have experienced other 
tastes, at least enough to know what I like and don't and a sense as to why.
And, if they like it, that is there business, not mine.
What I do like is that in a town like DC there are options, though 
not as many as we may like, they do exist.
Thank you one and all for your thoughts on this.  It is truly appreciated.
At 01:31 PM 7/26/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
--=====================_20052109==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Scott, et al,
I get it - why mess with something bringing in money at a nice
rate.  I doubt I would.  And, Scott, I understand what you said
about consistency.  Now, for me, it has always tasted burned, long
before I knew one thing about roasting coffee.  I never felt it was
dark, but also, I have had the experience of living most of my life
overseas, and my adult life in various countries, plus a home in
CR.  So, to the person who likes it, it is not really burnt, just
strong, I guess.  To me, I have been lucky enough to have
experienced other tastes, at least enough to know what I like and don't
and a sense as to why.
And, if they like it, that is there business, not mine.  
What I do like is that in a town like DC there are options, though not as
many as we may like, they do exist.  
Thank you one and all for your thoughts on this.  It is truly
appreciated.
At 01:31 PM 7/26/2007, you wrote:
> Tom, I am confused a bit
about this.  Certainly the roasters, owners,
> management of Starbucks realize that their coffee isn't strong,
but,
> instead, burnt - in my opinion and that of many I have read
here.
>
> But, they don't change it.  I am sure they are decent people,
want to
> make a good product, and all of that.  So, why don't
they?  When they
> started they introduced millions of people to a bad coffee
IMHO.  I
> don't get why people keep going there for I hear how bad it is all
of
> the time, but more, I just don't get why they don't change
their
> roast.  What am I missing?  Am I too naive on this
one?
The way I take it is that they do this on purpose. As has been
discussed
here many times, the darker you roast a bean, the less you taste the
bean
and the more you taste the roast. If you always burn a bean, it
doesn't
matter the differences year to year and lot to lot. The taste of the
coffee is going to be the same, burnt.
For Starbucks this is good because it is consistent. It doesn't
matter
where in the world or what time of year a customer purchases the
coffee,
it will always taste the same.
Cheers
Scott Petersen
homeroast mailing list
http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations,
unsvbscribes) go to
http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings--=====================_20052109==.ALT--

16) From: Jim Carter
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
This is the McDonald's model. When was the last time somebody said, 
"Boy, they sure do make a good hamburger at McDonalds!"? They don't 
serve "billions and billions" because the burger is good; they do it 
because it is consistent. Albeit, consistently bad, but that doesn't 
matter. You can go into a McDonald's anywhere in the world, including 
Gopher Spit, Iowa and Rubber Boot, Montana, and the product will taste 
the same. So it is with Starbucks.
My background is computer science, not marketing. So I am no marketing 
expert. I have often made the mistaken assumption that people want the 
highest quality product they can afford. Reality proves me wrong on a 
regular basis. McDonald's food is neither good nor inexpensive. It is 
convenient and consistent. Starbucks coffee is neither good nor 
inexpensive. It is convenient and consistent. McDonalds is profitable 
because the executives realize that they are not in the hamburger 
business. Starbucks is profitable because the executives realize that 
they are not in the coffee business.
-- JC
Scott Petersen wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Amber Systems, Inc.
414 Main Street Suite 211-C
Rochester, Michigan 48307
www.ambersystems.com
p. 248-652-3140 ext. 224
f. 248-652-3402

17) From: David Rolenc
Sort of makes you think about that Maxwell House changing to arabica 
beans thread, doesn't it? What would make a company that is probably 
profitable because of their consistency change something like that? Why 
New Coke? Why changing the cut on a Subway sandwich when people seem to 
like the old way of hollowing out the bread to fit in lots of fixings? I 
think the bottom line is that these changes only make sense when it 
makes sense in the bottom line and will not negatively impact sales. As 
for the Subway thing, they probably had a hard time training employees 
to properly cut the bread without cutting themselves. They figured that 
the gains they got by not sending employees to get stitches in the ER 
would make more of difference than customer backlash. They were right. 
Except for this guy:http://spine.cx/article.php?sidg0:-D
-Dave
Jim Carter wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Stephen Carey
I see your point, trust me, I get it.  It is so different than a 
small company.  I need to be the best, offer the best if I am to keep 
my company growing.  I have to learn better ways and not just satisfy 
my clients, but wow them.
And, just perhaps, the coffee is just fine for those who drink it, 
add that to the experience they have getting it or sitting there and 
they are happy.  It works for them.  I say cool.  It doesn't for me, 
but that is fine also.
Me, I am more excited about my latest order from SM that just 
arrived.  Great beans from Costa Rica, can I roast as well as what I 
get from places when I am down there living for a month or so at a 
time?  Probably not at first, but I am going to try.  I also got 
other items as I continue to enter the world of roasting.  I love it, 
I truly love it.  As my partner said, I have a hobby which is fast 
becoming a passion.  He is right.
Wish me well with the new beans.  A pound each of four types, should 
be fun for a while.  Thank you.

19) From: Stephen Carey
I see your point, trust me, I get it.  It is so different than a 
small company.  I need to be the best, offer the best if I am to keep 
my company growing.  I have to learn better ways and not just satisfy 
my clients, but wow them.
And, just perhaps, the coffee is just fine for those who drink it, 
add that to the experience they have getting it or sitting there and 
they are happy.  It works for them.  I say cool.  It doesn't for me, 
but that is fine also.
Me, I am more excited about my latest order from SM that just 
arrived.  Great beans from Costa Rica, can I roast as well as what I 
get from places when I am down there living for a month or so at a 
time?  Probably not at first, but I am going to try.  I also got 
other items as I continue to enter the world of roasting.  I love it, 
I truly love it.  As my partner said, I have a hobby which is fast 
becoming a passion.  He is right.
Wish me well with the new beans.  A pound each of four types, should 
be fun for a while.  Thank you. 

20) From: Frank Parth
<Snip>
JC,
I wholeheartedly agree with you. But then how do you explain Microsoft's market share?
Just curious.
Frank Parth

21) From: Rich
MS is consistent and has managed, until recently to make people think that it is convienient.  They also 
fit the *$ and McD business model.  Burnt coffee and rubber hamburgers.... 
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:04:00 -0700, Frank Parth wrote:
<Snip>
good hamburger at 
<Snip>
isconsistent. 
<Snip>
world, including 
<Snip>
Starbucks.
<Snip>
the mistaken 
<Snip>
a regular basis. 
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

22) From: Jim Carter
My thoughts on Microsoft are the same as McDonalds and Starbucks.
Some would legitimately argue that UNIX, and many of its derivatives, is 
a much better operating system than Microsoft Windows. Others might 
argue the same for the Apple platform. Is Windows a better graphical 
user interface than the one from Apple or Sun? Highly debatable. Is 
Microsoft Internet Explorer the best web-browser? Well, I don't use it, 
so you know where I stand. The success of Microsoft says more about 
their marketing prowess than it does about the "superiority" of their 
product. Just like McDonalds and Starbucks.
-- JC
Frank Parth wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Amber Systems, Inc.
414 Main Street Suite 211-C
Rochester, Michigan 48307
www.ambersystems.com
p. 248-652-3140 ext. 224
f. 248-652-3402

23) From: Angelo
I have to come to the defense of Starbuck's, the chain - not the 
coffee. I live in Manhattan, and if you've ever spent time here, you 
know that if you have one of those bladder emergencies while walking 
about, you would be hard pressed to find an obliging establishment. 
They usually have signs saying, "Restrooms are for customers ONLY!"
Starbuck's to the rescue... Since there are Starbuck's on just about 
every other corner, the problem is solved....I remember that the city 
was going to contract with some French firm, for millions of dollars, 
to put in a few Hi-tech pissoires(?) in the Times Sq. Area... No need now.
Also, because they are everywhere, they make great places to meet 
someone for an appointment. No more rainy street corners...
Another, almost as ubiquitous (love that word) place is Barnes & 
Noble...Very lenient restroom policy...
We now return you back to our discussion about coffee (more, or less)
A

24) From: Sandy Andina
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We used to be able to rely on Borders, until some urban ones went to  
a token-operated restroom door policy. You don't have to be a  
customer but you still have to ask for a token at the service desk.   
It's meant to discourage street people, and I suppose it's is no more  
onerous than having to ask for a restroom key, but some Starbucks  
make you do the latter. There's just something about having to  
announce your intentions to answer nature's call (and obtain official  
permission to answer it) that I find slightly off-putting, but any  
port in a storm, I guess.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Angelo wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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We used to be able to rely on =
Borders, until some urban ones went to a token-operated restroom door =
policy. You don't have to be a customer but you still have to ask for a =
token at the service desk.  It's meant to discourage street people, =
and I suppose it's is no more onerous than having to ask for a restroom =
key, but some Starbucks make you do the latter. There's just something =
about having to announce your intentions to answer nature's call (and =
obtain official permission to answer it) that I find slightly =
off-putting, but any port in a storm, I guess.
On Jul 27, =
2007, at 1:04 PM, Angelo wrote:
I have to come to the defense of Starbuck's, the = chain - not the coffee. I live in Manhattan, and if you've ever spent = time here, you know that if you have one of those bladder emergencies = while walking about, you would be hard pressed to find an obliging = establishment. They usually have signs saying, "Restrooms are for = customers ONLY!"Starbuck's to the rescue... = Since there are Starbuck's on just about every other corner, the problem = is solved....I remember that the city was going to contract with some = French firm, for millions of dollars, to put in a few Hi-tech = pissoires(?) in the Times Sq. Area... No need now.Also, because they are everywhere, they make great = places to meet someone for an appointment. No more rainy street = corners... Another, almost as ubiquitous (love that word) place = is Barnes & Noble...Very lenient restroom policy...We now return you back to our discussion about = coffee (more, or less)A homeroast mailing listhttp://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest = options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-87--1052772615--

25) From: Stephen Carey
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I am told often that I want to live in a Disney-esq movie 
environment, where all want to do well by others.  To me, I would 
think that you train the roasters to handle the year to year changes, 
the changes from lot to lot, though, I assume cost would go up even more.
It is just my wishes that we didn't have to "trick" people into 
liking something.  That is not to say that Starbucks customers, one 
and all, don't like it but drink it anyway.  I am sure millions do like it.
That's it for me on this.  I get everyone's point, I just feel bad 
that we can't do better by each other.  Sappy, aren't I?
At 04:02 PM 7/26/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
--=====================_105598640==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I am told often that I want to live in a Disney-esq movie
environment, where all want to do well by others.  To me, I would
think that you train the roasters to handle the year to year changes, the
changes from lot to lot, though, I assume cost would go up even
more.
It is just my wishes that we didn't have to "trick" people into
liking something.  That is not to say that Starbucks customers, one
and all, don't like it but drink it anyway.  I am sure millions do
like it.  
That's it for me on this.  I get everyone's point, I just feel bad
that we can't do better by each other.  Sappy, aren't I?
At 04:02 PM 7/26/2007, you wrote:
This is the McDonald's model.
When was the last time somebody said, "Boy, they sure do make a good
hamburger at McDonalds!"? They don't serve "billions and
billions" because the burger is good; they do it because it is
consistent. Albeit, consistently bad, but that doesn't matter. You can go
into a McDonald's anywhere in the world, including Gopher Spit, Iowa and
Rubber Boot, Montana, and the product will taste the same. So it is with
Starbucks.
My background is computer science, not marketing. So I am no marketing
expert. I have often made the mistaken assumption that people want the
highest quality product they can afford. Reality proves me wrong on a
regular basis. McDonald's food is neither good nor inexpensive. It is
convenient and consistent. Starbucks coffee is neither good nor
inexpensive. It is convenient and consistent. McDonalds is profitable
because the executives realize that they are not in the hamburger
business. Starbucks is profitable because the executives realize that
they are not in the coffee business.
-- JC
Scott Petersen wrote: 
Tom, I am confused a bit about this.  Certainly the
roasters, owners,
management of Starbucks realize that their coffee isn't strong, but,
instead, burnt - in my opinion and that of many I have read here.
But, they don't change it.  I am sure they are decent people, want
to
make a good product, and all of that.  So, why don't they? 
When they
started they introduced millions of people to a bad coffee IMHO.  I
don't get why people keep going there for I hear how bad it is all of
the time, but more, I just don't get why they don't change their
roast.  What am I missing?  Am I too naive on this one?
   
The way I take it is that they do this on purpose. As has been discussed
here many times, the darker you roast a bean, the less you taste the
bean
and the more you taste the roast. If you always burn a bean, it doesn't
matter the differences year to year and lot to lot. The taste of the
coffee is going to be the same, burnt.
For Starbucks this is good because it is consistent. It doesn't matter
where in the world or what time of year a customer purchases the coffee,
it will always taste the same.
Cheers
Scott Petersen
homeroast mailing list
http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations,
unsvbscribes) go to
http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings 
-- 
Amber Systems, Inc.
414 Main Street Suite 211-C
Rochester, Michigan 48307
www.ambersystems.com
p. 248-652-3140 ext. 224
f.
248-652-3402
--=====================_105598640==.ALT--

26) From:
<Snip>
It is just my wishes that we didn't have to "trick" people into liking something<<<
Stephen:
Most people do not need to be tricked into anything. Clearly I understand your wish but not going to happen in our lifetime!!
warmest regards,
ginny
---- Stephen Carey  wrote: 
<Snip>

27) From: David Rolenc
I am a Systems Engineer when I'm not roasting beans ;-) "Better" is 
definitely in the eye of the beholder. There are many really great 
things that Microsoft has done that deserve a lot of credit like them or 
not. I personally prefer linux and the like, but that is because of my 
background and what I do. I would certainly think twice about giving a 
solaris box to a novice who just wants to send email. You can definitely 
send email with a solaris box,  but it certainly doesn't have the ease 
of use of a windows machine for the novice user. The *nixes have a long 
way to go to be a serious threat to Microsoft at the desktop. The *nixes 
will still continue to dominate the server market because of their 
reputation for reliability (and the developers love them.) Although I 
may not personally prefer Microsoft OS platforms, I can certainly 
appreciate the difficulty of their task. Operating Systems are hard to 
make! Do you realize that whenever a third party vendor (read "not 
Microsoft") creates a device driver for their widget they have the 
ability to crash the OS if they do something stupid? (BTW that holds 
true for linux as well) Guess who gets the blame for instability when 
the OS crashes?
-Dave
Jim Carter wrote:
<Snip>

28) From:
you guy's,
go buy a Mac!!
gin
---- David Rolenc  wrote: 
<Snip>

29) From: Lynne Biziewski
I'll second that!
L.
On 7/27/07, pchforever  wrote:
<Snip>

30) From: Duncan
--Apple-Mail-11--1044589727
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	charset-ASCII;
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	delsp=yes
I'll third that. I've run OS X as a server OS and it works great.  
Fewer security issues and SweetMaria's used Macs in the office when I  
was there picking up my first roaster and order of beans.
--
Duncan
All typos are the fault of iPhone.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:11 PM, "Lynne Biziewski"   
wrote:
<Snip>
--Apple-Mail-11--1044589727
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	charsetF-8
I'll third that. I've run OS X as a server OS and it works great. Fewer security issues and SweetMaria's used Macs in the office when I was there picking up my first roaster and order of beans.
--DuncanAll typos are the fault of iPhone.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:11 PM, "Lynne Biziewski" <lynnebiz> wrote:
I'll second that!
L.
On 7/27/07, pchforever <pchforever
> wrote:you guy's,
go buy a Mac!!
gin
-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content
by the AmbitiousLemon Email Protection Service, and is believed
to be clean.
--Apple-Mail-11--1044589727--

31) From: David Rolenc
I have no problem with Macs. I typically use whatever it takes to get 
the job done. Many times that is dictated by the customers. I treat an 
Operating System like a tool, the more tools I have in my toolbox, the 
better. Fundamentally, every operating system does the same thing. 
Believe it or not the Mars Rover didn't use a Mac or Windows or even 
linux. It used vxWorks. Everyone has a favorite, and it can very easily 
get into a religious argument about which OS is better. The best OS for 
you is one that you understand and like.
-Dave
Duncan wrote:
<Snip>

32) From: Rich
remember guys and gals, Mac OS X is unix with a little powder and lipstick.  there are only two OS on 
the block, Unix and Microsoft products.  Just like there are only two coffee chains, Duncin doughnuts 
does not count....
--Original Message Text---
From: Duncan
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:35:23 -0700
I'll third that. I've run OS X as a server OS and it works great. Fewer security issues and 
SweetMaria's used Macs in the office when I was there picking up my first roaster and order of beans.
--Duncan
All typos are the fault of iPhone.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 1:11 PM, "Lynne Biziewski"  wrote:
I'll second that!
L.
On 7/27/07, pchforever  wrote:you guy's,
go buy a Mac!!
gin
-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content 
by the AmbitiousLemon Email Protection Service, and is believed 
to be clean. 

33) From: Justin Marquez
Wow. The mac-o-philes probably didn't want to hear that.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On 7/27/07, Rich  wrote:
remember guys and gals, Mac OS X is unix with a little powder and lipstick.
there are only two OS on the block, Unix and Microsoft products. Just like
there are only two coffee chains, Duncin doughnuts does not count....

34) From: Brett Mason
See - now we're on religion....
Brett
On 7/27/07, Justin Marquez  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

35) From: Frank Parth
I think it's been pretty well advertised that Mac OS 10 is Unix. Shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. But as long as it's stable the normal user doesn't care. 
Frank Parth
On Friday, July 27, 2007, at 02:20PM, "Justin Marquez"  wrote:
<Snip>

36) From: raymanowen
" I just don't get why they don't change their roast.  What am I missing?
Am I too naive on this one?"
Stephen, it's the Emporer's Clothes-
Sure, they're good people and all that hogwash, but first is the Bottom
Line.
If you owned one of the *$ franchises, or a McDuff's, for example, you, as =
a
"good" person could not start selling good or healthy food. Absolutely no
SCAA coffee in either case.
The brainwashed Proletariat would revolt. Corporate would receive no end of
phone calls and email about your damn odd restaurant. You'd have to match
the Corporate Crap, and they couldn't tolerate any divergeance. If their
customers don't get the SOS, they'll drift away.
Good managers aren't good people, they're just compliant Automatons. Arsch
küssen.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 7/26/07, Stephen Carey  wrote:
<Snip>
e
<Snip>
e,
<Snip>
Am
<Snip>
l
<Snip>
do
<Snip>
,
<Snip>
s?
<Snip>
rge
<Snip>
h
<Snip>
we
<Snip>
r
<Snip>
of
<Snip>
ing
<Snip>
e.
<Snip>
ery
<Snip>
een
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Might=
y
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

37) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-103--1015063139
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charsetO-8859-1;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
Has nothing to do with the Proletariat, brainwashed or unwashed.  One  =
of the terms of owning a franchise is the obligation not to deviate  
from corporate standards,  I had a friend once who nearly lost his  
Baskin-Robbins franchise years ago when he decided to create his own  
flavors and sundaes and offer "mix-ins" a decade before any chain  
introduced them. The customers loved it, business was booming; then  
someone from Corporate blew it and went ballistic, threatening to  
pull the franchise. My friend could not afford to buy the building, B- =
R would not sell him the fixtures or be a successor to the building  
lease; so he went back to doing things the company way.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:30 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-103--1015063139
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Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
Has nothing to do with the =
Proletariat, brainwashed or unwashed.  One of the terms of owning a =
franchise is the obligation not to deviate from corporate standards,  =
I had a friend once who nearly lost his Baskin-Robbins franchise years =
ago when he decided to create his own flavors and sundaes and offer =
"mix-ins" a decade before any chain introduced them. The customers loved =
it, business was booming; then someone from Corporate blew it and went =
ballistic, threatening to pull the franchise. My friend could not afford =
to buy the building, B-R would not sell him the fixtures or be a =
successor to the building lease; so he went back to doing things the =
company way.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:30 PM, raymanowen =
wrote:
" I just don't get why they don't change = their roast.  What am I missing?  Am I too naive on this = one?" Stephen, it's the Emporer's Clothes- Sure, = they're good people and all that hogwash, but first is the Bottom = Line. If you owned one of the *$ franchises, or a McDuff's, for = example, you, as a "good" person could not start selling good or healthy = food. Absolutely no SCAA coffee in either case. The brainwashed = Proletariat would revolt. Corporate would receive no end of phone calls = and email about your damn odd restaurant. You'd have to match the = Corporate Crap, and they couldn't tolerate any divergeance. If their = customers don't get the SOS, they'll drift away. Good managers = aren't good people, they're just compliant Automatons. Arsch = küssen.
Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-103--1015063139--

38) From: Vicki Smith
It makes perfect sense to me that Starbucks is popular. I don't think 
Americans (or Canadians) like coffee all that much. Oh, we drink it all 
right--it's the standard "adult" beverage after all--but, growing up in 
the states, my family, like most, drank lousy stuff disguised by milk 
and sugar (known far and wide as a "regular"). Here in Canada, the 
hordes line up at Tim Hortons for what is called a "double, 
double"--same thing, lots of milk and sugar as a disguise.
Starting to drink coffee was something of a right of passage in many 
homes. It might not taste all that great, but having coffee  with the 
adults was something many of us earned the right to do sometime in high 
school or when we came home from college for that first visit home. And 
how many of us only drank it because of the buzz?  How many of us drank 
coke or pepsi  in the morning instead of coffee when we could get away 
with it?  We may have bonded over coffee at work or school, but how many 
of us really liked it?
Coffee always had a bit of a panache, and it makes perfect sense 
culturally that someone would find a way to market it that made it 
expensive and somehow chic whilst skipping the essentials that would 
make it actually taste good.
Vicki

39) From: Ingrid Clark Zavadoski
In my opinion, Starbuck's  coffee/roast used to  (and I mean, in the 
early '90's) have something really unique about it. Even walking into a 
store you could really smell it - I can't think of another word to 
describe it except unique. That of course is not the case anymore. I 
imagine with the increase in production and becoming a mega-supplier, 
that whatever special something used to be in their particular way of 
doing things was lost and has now been translated into burned. You 
can't mass produce something special, in my opinion.
To make matters worse, my local Starbucks here in the midwest often 
makes the coffee a little weaker to compensate for the palate here*, 
which gives you burned, weak coffee. Horrors!
* I am sure they aren't supposed to, but I can't be imagining it

40) From: Mailing Lists
On Jul 26, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Frank Parth wrote:
<Snip>
Maffia-style business tactics.  Nothing MS has made has been good,  
reliable, or worth what they charge for it.  And I work in IT fixing  
Windows problems day to day.

41) From: Stephen Carey
Stephen Carey 
July 28, 2007  
   I grew up mostly in Europe - Germany and Italy, plus Britain for a
   bit.  Maybe that is why I go to Java Hut or Jammin Java for my coffee
   - or did before I started roasting.  My parents would splurge on
   coffee, for we were not poor, but we didn't have money to toss
   around, but coffee was something my parents, even after coming back
   to the states made sure they got from a coffee house, not the
   commissary.
   
   Stephen Mark Carey
   
   (703) 914-9593 Tel
   
  http://www.atriptoparadise.comStephen Carey
7413 Inzer Street
North Springfield, VA 22181
 http://www.atriptoparadise.com)------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email that means Business, Every email, Every day! - LetterClick BrandMail(=
TM) found only at www.letterclick.net
At 06:45 AM 7/28/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
ngs

42) From: Stephen Carey
--=====================_180883656==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
I grew up mostly in Europe - Germany and Italy, plus Britain for a 
bit.  Maybe that is why I go to Java Hut or Jammin Java for my coffee 
- or did before I started roasting.  My parents would splurge on 
coffee, for we were not poor, but we didn't have money to toss 
around, but coffee was something my parents, even after coming back 
to the states made sure they got from a coffee house, not the commissary.
At 06:45 AM 7/28/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
--=====================_180883656==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I grew up mostly in Europe - Germany and Italy, plus Britain
for a bit.  Maybe that is why I go to Java Hut or Jammin Java for my
coffee - or did before I started roasting.  My parents would splurge
on coffee, for we were not poor, but we didn't have money to toss around,
but coffee was something my parents, even after coming back to the states
made sure they got from a coffee house, not the commissary. 
At 06:45 AM 7/28/2007, you wrote:
It makes perfect sense to me
that Starbucks is popular. I don't think Americans (or Canadians) like
coffee all that much. Oh, we drink it all right--it's the standard
"adult" beverage after all--but, growing up in the states, my
family, like most, drank lousy stuff disguised by milk and sugar (known
far and wide as a "regular"). Here in Canada, the hordes line
up at Tim Hortons for what is called a "double, double"--same
thing, lots of milk and sugar as a disguise.
Starting to drink coffee was something of a right of passage in many
homes. It might not taste all that great, but having coffee  with
the adults was something many of us earned the right to do sometime in
high school or when we came home from college for that first visit home.
And how many of us only drank it because of the buzz?  How many of
us drank coke or pepsi  in the morning instead of coffee when we
could get away with it?  We may have bonded over coffee at work or
school, but how many of us really liked it?
Coffee always had a bit of a panache, and it makes perfect sense
culturally that someone would find a way to market it that made it
expensive and somehow chic whilst skipping the essentials that would make
it actually taste good.
Vicki
homeroast mailing list
http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations,
unsvbscribes) go to
http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings--=====================_180883656==.ALT--

43) From: Stephen Carey
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow, know wonder I own my own company.  This is almost scarry.
At 12:30 AM 7/28/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
 Line.
<Snip>
__
<Snip>
__
<Snip>
tmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast 
<Snip>
ias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings
<Snip>
--=====================_180921125==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow, know wonder I own my own company.  This is almost
scarry.
At 12:30 AM 7/28/2007, you wrote:
" I just don't get why t=
hey
don't change their roast.  What am I missing?  Am I too naive
on this one?"
Stephen, it's the Emporer's Clothes-
Sure, they're good people and all that hogwash, but first is the Bottom
Line.
If you owned one of the *$ franchises, or a McDuff's, for example, you,
as a "good" person could not start selling good or healthy
food. Absolutely no SCAA coffee in either case. 
The brainwashed Proletariat would revolt. Corporate would receive no end
of phone calls and email about your damn odd restaurant. You'd have to
match the Corporate Crap, and they couldn't tolerate any divergeance. If
their customers don't get the SOS, they'll drift away. 
Good managers aren't good people, they're just compliant Automatons.
Arsch küssen.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 7/26/07, Stephen Carey
<steve
> wrote:
Tom, I am confused a bit about this.  Certainly the roasters,
owners, management of Starbucks realize that their coffee isn't strong,
but, instead, burnt - in my opinion and that of many I have read
here.
But, they don't change it.  I am sure they are decent people,
want to make a good product, and all of that.  So, why don't
they?  When they started they introduced millions of people to a bad
coffee IMHO.  I don't get why people keep going there for I hear how
bad it is all of the time, but more, I just don't get why they don't
change their roast.  What am I missing?  Am I too naive on this
one?
I realize I have only made a handful of roasts, but truly, I would
put all of them up against Starbucks in the range of flavors detected,
the freshness, and so on.  They are not perfect, other than my last
roast (of which I am so excited about, it turned out really good, I get
that I can do it).
So, if some beginner gets that what they sell is over roasted or
whatever, don't they?  Wouldn't they want to sell the best possible
to their clients?  I feel lost on their reasoning, unless they
figure: "this is easy, we charge more, people think it is good
because it costs a lot, so don't monkey with it."
Stephen
At 08:30 PM 7/25/2007, you
wrote:
I kid myself into thinking I have had decent Starbucks - but the fact
is that if you are traveling, many things taste good if they are simply
"not bad". I am only refering to starbucks lighter roasts of
"single origin" coffees such as brazil ipanema, colombia narino
and their black apron coffees (which frankly, are like lower grade,
generic versions of things we all know about too well, but they announce
then with such flair that their customers think they are so rare and
special: ethiopia harar (ever heard of it?) or el salvador
pacamara.)
anyway, peets has a good quality program, known to buy decent coffee,
and watch their (over) roasting pretty carefully. I can smell the coffee
burning at their plant every time i go pick up some odds and ends at home
depot, about 5 minutes from here. i know their cuppers, skilled people,
perhaps making up for the fact that they have a deep sense of their own
importance. i met jim reynolds a couple times a while back and he was the
opposite, very nice guy, probably one of the true legends of coffee that
seems to have been passed over in all the forum chatter.
tom
--
            &nbs=
p;    
"Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
           Sweet
Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
            &nbs=
p;        
http://www.sweetmarias.com            &nbs=
p; 
Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
    Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland,
CA 94607 - USA
           
phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
homeroast mailing list
http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations,
unsvbscribes) go to
http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox
at the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
--=====================_180921125==.ALT--


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