HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Mason jar lids with quality degas valves (38 msgs / 928 lines)
1) From: Ross
Does anyone know a sourse (other than homemade) for mason jar lids with 
quality degas valves?
Thanks,
Ross

2) From: Sandy Andina
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On Jul 28, 2007, at 10:44 AM, Ross wrote:
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Ball(et)
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.  "Dégas valves" painted such a pretty  =
picture.....
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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On Jul 28, 2007, =
at 10:44 AM, Ross wrote:

mason jar lids with quality = degas valves?

= Ball(et)
Sorry, I couldn't help = myself.  "Dégas valves" painted such a pretty = picture..... Sandy = Andinawww.sandyandina.comwww.myspace.com/sandyandina=

= = --Apple-Mail-104--972303552--

3) From: Lynne Biziewski
Ha. When I first started homeroasting over a year ago, & joined this
list, I kept wondering what Degas had to do with homeroasting... was
interesting that they used his name, in some sort of esoteric connection
I thought... finally a brick practically hit me in the head - "Oh - it's de=
-
GAS!"
Just goes to show I'm still an artist at heart (went to art school somethin=
g
like a zillion years ago).
Lynne
On 7/28/07, Sandy Andina  wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: Eddie Dove
Ross,
Try this link: http://www.storeyourcoffee.com/jars.htmlHope this helps ...
Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On 7/28/07, Ross  wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: raymanowen
" ...mason jar lids with quality degas valves?"
The top rim of the glass Mason jars is polished and flat. With the soft seal
material of the lid, the lid itself makes a pretty good one way valve.
Because of its diameter, a little internal pressure will raise the lid off
its seat and allow the gas to escape.
So, what's to care about a little CO2 gas pressure in the jar? With pressure
inside, it's certain that nothing will migrate in from the outside.
What fault leads you to believe you need the pricey lids?
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
On 7/28/07, Ross  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

6) From: Ross
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ray,
I have several bent and creased lids from canning before the beans had =
degassed completely. The lids actually puffed up and deformed, no doubt =
I screwed the tops on too tight. Now, I put the tops on loosely and come =
back a couple days later and screw them tighter.  That works but I =
wanted something fool proof.  If I find the energy I may install some =
valves myself but not a priority now.   I will try your solution of just =
putting the lid on with a light to medium tightness and see if that =
works.  Maybe I need a Mason jar torque gage. 
Thanks,
Ross

7) From: Rich
If it were me, I would go out and buy a box of brand new lids.  Then I would set a new lid on the mouth 
of each jar right after filling with fresh roaste4d coffee beans.  I would then place one brand new 
quarter in the center of each lid.  Place jars on shelf and allow to sit for a couple of days.  Go get 
quarters and put on rings.  Done.  No valve required.
--Original Message Text---
From: Ross
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 01:36:33 +0900
Ray, 
I have several bent and creased lids from canning before the beans had degassed completely. The lids actually puffed up and 
deformed, no doubt I screwed the tops on too tight. Now, I put the tops on loosely and come back a couple days later and screw them 
tighter.  That works but I wanted something fool proof.  If I find the energy I may install some valves myself but not a priority now.   I 
will try your solution of just putting the lid on with a light to medium tightness and see if that works.  Maybe I need a Mason jar torque 
gage.  
Thanks, 
Ross

8) From: Scott Marquardt
OK, this thread needs an advocatus diaboli before things go too far:
Why has the mason jar approach persisted so long among home roasters?
My issue with the jars is that as beans are used, the amount of O2 in the
jar increases substantially. The problem here is three-fold, IMO. First,
over time as beans are used and space increases in the jar, they are
outgassing less and therefore are not as able to displace O2 in the
container as they were when there was less space in the container that
needed its O2 displaced. In other words, this is a worsening situation over
time, as the top is frequently removed and the CO2 concentration in the jars
is dispersed (and that moreso, since with time and use there are not as many
beans to baffle the gasses in the container to prevent their dispersion with
consequent increase in O2 concentration).
Second, over time the beans are moving from a process of resting to one of
staling (there's room for the fallacy of the beard in this discussion as
well ;-). The presence of significant O2 under these circumstances is a bug
-- not a feature -- again, a worsening situation over time.
Third . . . geez, there was something third. Forgot what now. But I swear it
would make list readers -- in droves -- hurl their mason jars into
landfills!    :-P
Seriously, why not valve bags? Ya squeeze 'em (or vacuum them after opening)
and that head of air one has in jars just goes away. They take up less space
as beans are used. They're re-usable and may be wiped out if oils are a
problem.
The one thing that can be a problem with bags, is that if someone habitually
opens them like a potato chip bag, the zipper will indeed fail.
Thoughts?
- Scott "the gadfly" Marquardt
On 7/29/07, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Rich
Use a jar small enough that you can use all of it in a reasonable period of time.  They are cheap.  If 
you are concerned about O2 then go to the paint store and buy a can on nitrogen.  keep them in the 
freezer.
The little home vacuum units are not pulling anything close to a decent vacuum, 25" mercury negative 
pressure.  They remove the excess air from a bag but will do little with a jar.
--Original Message Text---
From: Scott Marquardt
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:51:07 -0500
OK, this thread needs an advocatus diaboli before things go too far:
Why has the mason jar approach persisted so long among home roasters?
My issue with the jars is that as beans are used, the amount of O2 in the jar increases substantially. 
The problem here is three-fold, IMO. First, over time as beans are used and space increases in the 
jar, they are outgassing less and therefore are not as able to displace O2 in the container as they 
were when there was less space in the container that needed its O2 displaced. In other words, this is 
a worsening situation over time, as the top is frequently removed and the CO2 concentration in the 
jars is dispersed (and that moreso, since with time and use there are not as many beans to baffle the 
gasses in the container to prevent their dispersion with consequent increase in O2 concentration). 
Second, over time the beans are moving from a process of resting to one of staling (there's room for 
the fallacy of the beard in this discussion as well ;-). The presence of significant O2 under these 
circumstances is a bug -- not a feature -- again, a worsening situation over time. 
Third . . . geez, there was something third. Forgot what now. But I swear it would make list readers -- 
in droves -- hurl their mason jars into landfills!    :-P
Seriously, why not valve bags? Ya squeeze 'em (or vacuum them after opening) and that head of air 
one has in jars just goes away. They take up less space as beans are used. They're re-usable and may 
be wiped out if oils are a problem. 
The one thing that can be a problem with bags, is that if someone habitually opens them like a potato 
chip bag, the zipper will indeed fail.
Thoughts? 
- Scott "the gadfly" Marquardt
On 7/29/07, Rich  wrote:
If it were me, I would go out and buy a box of brand new lids. Then I would set a new lid on the mouth of each jar right 
after filling with fresh roaste4d coffee beans. I would then place one brand new quarter in the center of each lid. 
Place jars on shelf and allow to sit for a couple of days. Go get quarters and put on rings. Done. No valve required. 
--Original Message Text---
From: Ross
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 01:36:33 +0900 
Ray, 
I have several bent and creased lids from canning before the beans had degassed completely. The lids actually puffed up and 
deformed, no doubt I screwed the tops on too tight. Now, I put the tops on loosely and come back a couple days later and screw them 
tighter. That works but I wanted something fool proof. If I find the energy I may install some valves myself but not a priority now. I will 
try your solution of just putting the lid on with a light to medium tightness and see if that works. Maybe I need a Mason jar torque 
gage.  
Thanks, 
Ross

10) From: Vicki Smith
I don't know how other folks use the jars, but I fill a pint jar as full 
as I can get it, and once I open it the beans are gone within three 
days.  That's fresh enough for me. I roast 2X a week and don't carry 
beans over for long, although there are some jars I don't open for a 
first brew for a few days.
When I'm doing a road trip and won't be able to roast for a bit, I vac 
pack my beans in one day amounts.
vicki
Scott Marquardt wrote:
<Snip>

11) From: Steven Dover
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
<Snip>
It works! Also, just sealing **as soon as beans are cool** doesn't give =
that strange "vacuumed" flavor! Sort of like cooking with a "water =
smoker" where  everything tastes "water smoked".
<Snip>
the jar increases substantially.
I use 8 oz jars. When I open one, I use all the coffee. Rarely do I need =
as little as the 4 oz jar holds.
<Snip>
staling.
Inevitable.
<Snip>
What head of air? One W'Bend "Poppery" roast fills an 8oz jar perfectly!
<Snip>
Surely you jest! I've canned 15 pints of Strawberry flavored fig jam in =
the past few days. I have a very small garden {about 25' x 50") but I'll =
need those jars! 
I've been using mason jars for coffee about 12 years and canning =
tomatoes, jellys etc all of my life.
Steven D.

12) From: Rich
Don't forget that a mason jar is a multi use container.  they will last for a very long time and are just 
sand when crushed.  Minimal impact on the environment.  The metalized plastic bag however.....
--Original Message Text---
From: Steven Dover
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:50:05 -0500
<Snip>
It works! Also, just sealing **as soon as beans are cool** doesn't give that strange "vacuumed" flavor! Sort of like cooking with a 
"water smoker" where  everything tastes "water smoked".
<Snip>
I use 8 oz jars. When I open one, I use all the coffee. Rarely do I need as little as the 4 oz jar holds.
<Snip>
Inevitable.
<Snip>
What head of air? One W'Bend "Poppery" roast fills an 8oz jar perfectly!
<Snip>
Surely you jest! I've canned 15 pints of Strawberry flavored fig jam in the past few days. I have a very small garden {about 25' x 50") but 
I'll need those jars! 
I've been using mason jars for coffee about 12 years and canning tomatoes, jellys etc all of my life.
Steven D.

13) From: Justin Marquez
On 7/29/07, Steven Dover  wrote:
<Snip>
I used to have one of those.  It surely was hard to light.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)

14) From: Scott Marquardt
Actually, we should all be using plastic or paper, and filling the landfills
with it as much as possible to sequester carbon.   ;-)
On 7/29/07, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Ross
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Scott,
The word "quality" in the subject line is important.  The main reason I =
use mason jars vs. bags is they don't leak air IN like many valve bags =
do and they don't wear out or resist cleaning like bags do.  If people =
use mason jars as a long term decanter your point is well taken.  I =
transfer the beans once the mason jar is opened the first time to =
something my wife likes better on the counter, no it's not any better at =
storage but we use them up fast.  No doubt the valved bags are =
unbeatable for shipping.  I think at this point I'm going with the light =
lid torque technique, cheap and easy, what can I say.
Ross

16) From: Scott Marquardt
Some good answers to my questons all around. The best justification I'm
hearing for using a container that doesn't collapse to accommodate changes
in bean volume, is brief storage.
Context: my own experience differs from many of you. I'm the only coffee
drinker in the house. I use left-overs from the farmer's market brewing
beans to fund my personal drinking the following week (generally at work),
so I often end up with 3 to 5 origins in varying quantities, possibly
passing their peak flavor as I enter the week. Keeping them from staling in
these unpredictable quantities is my main concern.
- Scott
On 7/30/07, Ross  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: John Moody
I thought the majority agreement was that freezing (even in a standard home
freezer) roasted beans does indeed delay staling by at least a month?  Would
that be a solution for you?
John

18) From: Scott Marquardt
My solution is to use valve bags. In my case freezing wouldn't help because
it's not long-term storage at issue but simply a day-to-day solution. The
head of air in a jar would be worse than valve bags.
- Scott
On 7/30/07, John Moody  wrote:
<Snip>

19) From: Mike Garfias
On Jul 29, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Rich wrote:
<Snip>
I was wondering about a nitrogen fill.  I keep a bottle in the garage  
for filling the car tires with - maybe I should flood the jar.  Also  
have a little gast laboratory vacuum pump that pulls around 25" maybe  
I should come up with a way to seal that against a one way valve?

20) From: Rich
If you manage to pull a 23' to 25" vacuum in a mason jar the lid will cave in and leak.  That would be 
about 60 pounds of force on a standard lid.  Just back fill with CO2 or N2.  Either one will displace O2 as 
they are heavier.  My approach is to store all roasted coffee at low temperature in glass in an inert 
atmosphere.  No real problem to do, low cost and works well.  I have a small freezer that I store all 
coffee in.  As I say either CO2 or N@ will work as a fill gas and both ae readily available and cheap.
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:01:29 -0700, Mike Garfias wrote:
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<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

21) From: Mike Garfias
I was suggesting pulling the vacuum on a bag, not the jar.  I'm not  
quite that nuts :)
On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:41 PM, Rich wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Rich
A polly bag will withstand even less vacuum.  A high grade shop vac will draw enough vacuum to fail 
most zip loc bags.
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:25:41 -0700, Mike Garfias wrote:
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<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

23) From: raymanowen
"As I say either CO2 or N@ will work as a fill gas and both are readily
available and cheap."
I don't know where to get N(at), but the CO2 just evolves from the beans
after they're roasted,  and continues as long as they are some degree of
fresh.
The evolving CO2 is denser than, and displaces Oxygen. The beans are sitting
in a puddle of CO2 until the beans are dumped out- so is the CO2. If the
beans are past fresh, O2 will replace the beans and CO2 as they're poured
out. Past fresh creates problems, but it's the oxygen that loves the
hydrocarbons that comprise the coffee bean entity. Then stale.
I just dip the beans out of the CO2 bath. If you treat the CO2 like water,
you won't go rong. You want the CO2 to swamp the beans and exclude the
oxygen.
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
On 7/30/07, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>

24) From: Floyd Lozano
Is CO2 so much denser than atmosphere at whatever elevation for this to be
effective?  I would think the turbulence created by the act of dipping would
be enough to mix the gasses (unless you're dipping from a deep and small
mouthed jar, where the CO2 can't escape easily, but neither could dipped
beans unless using a small ladle!)  I think the best remedy to combat
staling effects is roast small, roast often, drink soon.
-F
On 7/31/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: miKe mcKoffee
Interesting statement based on? Pump-N-Seal advertises 28.9"Hg and their
comparison table lists FoodSaver 24.2"Hg. Have FoodSaver vacuum sealed mason
jar dome lids literally thousands of times for over a decade and yet to have
one "cave in and leak". Speaking of cheap and convenient, if not planning on
vacuum sealing bags but only canisters, mason jars etc. FoodSaver makes a
handheld for ~20. (Called CoffeeSaver or WineSaver or just HandHeld
depending on accessories that come with the same unit.) Pay for it once, no
chance of running out of "gas". 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

26) From: Rich
OK MiKe, do you have a reference for the spec you quoted?  Like a website or?  I do not believe it.
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:35:15 -0700, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
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<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

27) From: miKe mcKoffee
Google (or other search engines) work if you use them;-) http://viworld.net/pumpnseal/vacuumtest.htm<Snip>

28) From: Rich
thanks - for your courteous response
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:00:34 -0700, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings

29) From: raymanowen
Anybody can advertise any Damn thing to entice credulous buyers with more
dollars than sense, in my opinion. Former successful Used Car salesmen have
difficulty distinguishing anatomical features from geographic landmarks, an=
d
they write ad copy. If you believe their unsubstantiated Pferdescheiße, I
tender my condolences. It's Pure BS.
In fact, a 28.9in Hg vacuum is a misnomer. It's the column of Mercury that
the atmospheric pressure will support, not what the pump will suck.  Even m=
y
Sargent Welch lab pump with a 3/4hp motor couldn't pull that great a vacuum
at this altitude. Electric toys that don't weigh anything near the 86lbs of
the S/W really haven't circumvented the laws of physics.
The help wanted ad reads: "This job really sucks, the boss sucks, the pay
sucks- Vacuum Brained Jughead needed. Used Car salesmen encouraged..."
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Forget the vacuum pump, put your money on the Grinder.

30) From: Steven Dover
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ah yes...the truth! - Steve D.

31) From: stereoplegic
homemade is just so easy. make a small hole in the center of the lid, 
smooth it w/ a round needle file, take a valve from a bag (i pull it off 
of the bag material completely, some leave a small amount of the 
material attached) and seal the valve to the inside of the lid w/ 
silicone RTD (if you have a 99˘ Only store nearby, you can get it there 
for... guess how much), which is food-safe after it cures (when it stops 
smelling like vinegar, usually about an hour, though i wait 24 hrs just 
to be sure). 10 minutes worth of work tops, you save a lot of money, and 
you don't have to wait for it to ship.
rdhenne wrote:
<Snip>

32) From: Angelo
But, you have to wait for it to cure. Your method 
doesn't sound as easy as the pump-n-seal.
Also, they claim 100 uses with each "valve". If 
true, that's pretty cheap..but I haven't tried either, so no value here...
A
<Snip>

33) From: Scott Marquardt
I'm still freaking out, folks. I mean -- a valve bag. No fabrication
involved. Capability of squeezing out all gas after dipping in for a brew.
I've fielded the rationales for jars over the last few days, but it still
seems like a Rube Goldberg approach.   :-P
IMO, this happy argument is brough to you by a reality: humans have
developed means of storing things that are convenient, and on the other han=
d
coffee has some properties that challenge those conventions and require som=
e
accommodations. IMO, the jarheads are wanting to stick with conventions
whereas we baggies are letting the beans constrain our options. Something
like that.
- Scott
On 8/1/07, stereoplegic  wrote:
<Snip>

34) From: W. Simon
This sounds like a good thing to do with all those bags that the zip-lock
portion separates from the bag rendering them worthless...  I'll have to
give it a try.
On 8/2/07, Scott Marquardt  wrote:
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.
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and
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ome
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f
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re
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s
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d
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35) From: Scott Marquardt
Say what?
On 8/2/07, W. Simon  wrote:
<Snip>

36) From: Justin Marquez
The valve bags have as of fairly recently been showing tendencies for the
"ziplock" style closure to separate from the bag wall. The actual "zip" part
remains OK, but the plastic to which it is attached peels away from the bag
wall.  SInce the ones I have have been doing that, I have been exceedingly
careful about opening the bags, but after a while they still do it.
I have pretty much given up on valve bags and am using a storage container
with a silicone seal and a metal latch for my day-to-day storage of
roasteds. For gifted coffee, I have been using the cheapest zipper style
bags I can find as it seems they are always on a one-way journey.  If I mail
the coffee to someone, I add a strip of transparent tape to help the zipper
closure stay in place during the trip.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On 8/2/07, Scott Marquardt  wrote:
<Snip>
--

37) From: Scott Marquardt
Ah. I wondered whether that's what you've meant.
I've noticed that with some valve bags as well, and have changed my method
of opening them. I used to always do the "potato chip bag" technique. No
more.
- Scott
On 8/2/07, Justin Marquez  wrote:
<Snip>

38) From: Kevin Creason
<Snip>
I've been recycling little jars-- the fancy olive jars about 4" tall, straight up and 1.5-2" across are the perfect size for my air popper roasts as gift jars. I pack them well in a box and ship 'em off, telling the recipients to consume ASAP for best freshness.
I use large jars like spaghetti sauce or Plantar's peanuts for my own storage. They make an amazing pop when the lid is removed if they were put in while still slightly warm (<140F). At first I thought it was the cool down making a suction, but I've since realized it is a positive pressure in the jar from the CO2, and it will do it again on the second day and they are definitely cool by then.
I'm using an infra-red contactless thermometer. It's not super duper accurate despite its snazzy digital read-out, but it is fun and easy.


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